Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, catrox14 said: I'm gonna go back and rewatch s9 which I don't mind at all because I like that season in general minus a few stinkers. It's not just dialogue but also acting choices that convey lying/shady behavior. Every time Dean was ready to tell Sam the truth, Ezekiel had a reason to not let that happen which saved his own ass and IMO some of Jared's work suggested Ezekiel was lying. YMMV. Regardless, IMO, even if Gadreel was not lying about Sam's full condition, Dean was still being manipulate by Gadreel to NOT let Sam go. IMO, that is STILL a mitigating factor as to why Dean continued to not tell Sam before Road Trip. Again YMMY Personally for me it would have been nice seeing Dean be smarter about the whole thing. Even factoring in all the manipulation and massive guilt that was being used against him he still had: - King of Hell chained up in his basement - A prophet of the Lord chilling in his living room - Sheriff Sassy driving around with a library from Bobby's in her trunk - A super secret bunker full of extra super secret things And those are just the things that are at his disposal that Gadreel hasn't objected to being around; let alone separating himself, going out, picking up the phone and calling Cas once they reconnect. He even goes out and helps Cas on a case despite Gadreel's problems with his friend and threats against Sam. But he's not working with the same diligence to help/protect Sam? It was disheartening to see him not start to do anything really of consequence about Angel-In-A-Sam until it was guaranteed to be too late and Kevin's death was signed in triplicate. It became frustrating as a viewer to watch them go down the same rabbit hole all over again. Not to mention that I had a lot of sympathy for why Sam was pissed, why it was so terrible what Dean did and even be able to broach the subject of Dean being screwed up in the ways he is. Then when they turned around to make Gadreel seem like the lesser of two evils in the end and put some of the ugliest words ever said towards another character into his mouth, I found it even harder to watch. YMMV on that though. Edited March 13, 2017 by Airmid 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 5 hours ago, shang yiet said: I feel like the opposite. When Sam does bad things, fandom says he's a selfish jerk who just doesn't appreciate his wonderfully self-sacrificing brother. But when Dean does bad things, it's just because all the writers/showrunners are in love with Sam. They just want to tear Dean down for the sake of drama, they want to drag Dean down in the mud, they want to ruin him like they ruined Sam and Cas, they don't understand he's not actually a callous and insensitive person. I have yet to see any postings on any sites that regard Sam in this way when he is on the outs with Dean. Then again I don't frequent brother bashing sites as I like both characters. I also stated in my post that both characters have suffered from bad writing but I more often see Sam's OOC behavior waved away with this reasoning and Dean not so much. Your mileage will obviously vary on this especially depending on your leaning regarding the brothers. You lean to Sam's POV, I tend to lean to Dean's. 1 Link to comment
auntvi March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 34 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: I have yet to see any postings on any sites that regard Sam in this way when he is on the outs with Dean. Then again I don't frequent brother bashing sites as I like both characters. I also stated in my post that both characters have suffered from bad writing but I more often see Sam's OOC behavior waved away with this reasoning and Dean not so much. Your mileage will obviously vary on this especially depending on your leaning regarding the brothers. You lean to Sam's POV, I tend to lean to Dean's. This entire thread is about the ways Dean's behavior/character is poorly or unfairly written, especially in his feelings and behavior toward Sam. 1 Link to comment
SueB March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, auntvi said: This entire thread is about the ways Dean's behavior/character is poorly or unfairly written, especially in his feelings and behavior toward Sam. Bummer. For the record, I think Dean's doing well this year in terms of significant character growth, BadAss moments and (of course) he killed Hitler. Sam is also doing well IMO and there's some nice nuances in his character. Plus he got some "Sam Freakin' Winchester" moments that really stood out. I think BOTH are protective of not only their brother but their relationship. I LOVED the unity they showed at the end of Family Feud and The Raid when talking to Mary. If the writers are screwing anyone, IMO, it's Mary. Because they are not giving us insight into what she's thinking and she's done some really sketchy moves. SHE, versus the other brother, is the source of conflict. Sucks to be her. It's intriguing and meaty for the actress, but Mary's character is looking either naive or selfish for many scenes IMO. I think SOME of that is real and some of that is plotonium tension. I'm hoping for some level of resolution before the end of the year. 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 14 hours ago, DeeDee79 said: Meanwhile, they obviously wanted me to cheer Sam on in the Purge and agree with every single word he said. That`s what bugged me that it was like the writers speaking through Sam there, saying "yes, Dean is a horrible, selfish, delusional coward and has never been anything else". It didn`t come across to me as Sam saying untrue stuff because he was so angry but as if he was supposed to be speaking the truth. Again, my response was that the writers could suck it. *Sorry DeeDee I think the original quote was from Aeryn, Im not sure how to change it. Another part of the problem was that this came right on the heels of Sam's speech in Sacrifice. Sam was basically saying he wanted to die because he felt like Dean liked other people more than him. (That is exactly how that speech came across to me from the way it was worded). Sam is complaining that Dean wasn't putting him first. Even if Sam didn't mean to that speech was only going to reinforce Dean's prime directive that John drilled into his head since he was four. No way, he doesn't do everything he can right on the heels of that. Im not saying that what he did was right, just that I can understand why he did it.. I remember the writers of the ep tweeting that Sam was coming from a place of honestly. So it seemed they believed what he was saying. If Sam had stuck to issue at hand, then maybe but saying that Dean only sacrifices if he's not getting hurt, or telling Dean he does more harm then good? Those were lies and designed to hurt Dean. If Dean was frustrating him he should have walked away instead of getting petty. But I tend to believe those are things Sam fully believes because even though it wasn't their intention the writers had Gadreel confirm it. During Meta Fiction when Dean was confronting Gadreel, the angel said a lot of the same stuff Sam threw at Dean in the purge, telling Dean these were things Sam felt. The problem was Sam threw Gadreel out almost immediately after he was learned he was possessed. So in order for Gadreel to actually know that stuff wouldn't Sam had to have been thinking it all along? Plus, its also further enforced in 9.01 when we got that trip into Sam's head. According to Sam he saved the world all by himself, and Dean is a halfwit who didn't do jack. That fits with the stuff Sam said in the Purge. That was before Sam was even possessed. Dean gets what little self worth he has from helping others so saying that to Dean was worse than anything physical Sam could have done, and why it was more then just a few harsh remarks from Sam. When he was tied up during Thin Man and that person almost cut his throat. Dean hit rock bottom, so I dont' agree that Dean felt no remorse or guilt over what did to either Kevin or Sam. IMO, actions speak far louder than words. He even said that he deserved to burn for Kevin. Then he tried to apologize to him and got accused of having a pity party for himself. So why bother feeling sorry for his actions when he's told he's wrong to do so. When Dean said he'd do it again, I took that to mean saving Sam, not that he didn't feel bad that Kevin got caught in the crossfire. Sam and Dean should never have reunited after Sharp Teeth. Sam's anger was still burning strong, and he obviously wasn't ready accept Dean back. If they aren't going to separate the brothers they need to stop writing situations where its necessary. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot March 13, 2017 Author Share March 13, 2017 15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Meanwhile, they obviously wanted me to cheer Sam on in the Purge and agree with every single word he said. That`s what bugged me that it was like the writers speaking through Sam there, saying "yes, Dean is a horrible, selfish, delusional coward and has never been anything else". It didn`t come across to me as Sam saying untrue stuff because he was so angry but as if he was supposed to be speaking the truth. Again, my response was that the writers could suck it. Well, if that was the "obvious" thing, I missed the memo. IMO, like most things on this show, I thought they wanted me to see they both were being stubborn idiots who couldn't find any common ground right then. They were in a holding pattern and neither were going to budge. Petty little jerks, both of them, and I'm not sure why anyone would think I would cheer for either of them right then. 2 hours ago, Airmid said: Personally for me it would have been nice seeing Dean be smarter about the whole thing. Amen, sister! Granted, I'd have preferred him to be honest with Sam to begin with despite Gadreel's pathetic threats, but it's Supernatural and we can't have nice things like that. I just wish Dean hadn't been such a dope about the whole thing. My only conclusion was the brain damage from all the blows to the head were finally catching up to him. 2 Link to comment
SueB March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, ILoveReading said: If they aren't going to separate the brothers they need to stop writing situations where its necessary. Isn't that pretty much what we've seen post S10 Soul Survivor? They had that bit where Sam was hiding the Book of the Damned but it was pretty limited. If they never "break up" again, I'll be happy. They've gone through too much and fought too hard to be united to have a real conflict at this point. 4 Link to comment
ILoveReading March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, SueB said: Isn't that pretty much what we've seen post S10 Soul Survivor? They had that bit where Sam was hiding the Book of the Damned but it was pretty limited. If they never "break up" again, I'll be happy. They've gone through too much and fought too hard to be united to have a real conflict at this point. I don't think the brothers should be hunting together after the last episode. I think given their positions, character growth would actually be splitting up and bucking the status quo. Seperation doesn't always have to mean conflict. Im not saying Dean would refuse to help if Sam got into trouble (although based on the way they're writing Sam this season he really doesn't need any help) They are clearly on different pages despite Dean's resignation. Just because he didn't argue doesn't mean he actually wants an part of if. Unless Jensen was just phoning it in, Dean's body language and tone clearly indicates he doesn't agree with what Sam's doing, and I'm not all that convinced Sam will bail if Dean sees something as sketchy? He was itching to answer that phone. IMO, this can only lead to more arguments than splitting up would. Sorry, I just can't see Dean's reactions at the end of these last two episodes as character growth, its not anything new to his character. If anything its character regression given the way Dean's been pretty vocal about his opinions lately. If the writers wanted me to see those eps as character growth, then it makes me question whether I was supposed to see the other times as Dean standing up for himself as character growth or just more MEEN!Dean being mean. 3 Link to comment
SueB March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: I don't think the brothers should be hunting together after the last episode. I think given their positions, character growth would actually be splitting up and bucking the status quo. Seperation doesn't always have to mean conflict. Im not saying Dean would refuse to help if Sam got into trouble (although based on the way they're writing Sam this season he really doesn't need any help) They are clearly on different pages despite Dean's resignation. Just because he didn't argue doesn't mean he actually wants an part of if. Unless Jensen was just phoning it in, Dean's body language and tone clearly indicates he doesn't agree with what Sam's doing, and I'm not all that convinced Sam will bail if Dean sees something as sketchy? He was itching to answer that phone. IMO, this can only lead to more arguments than splitting up would. Sorry, I just can't see Dean's reactions at the end of these last two episodes as character growth, its not anything new to his character. If anything its character regression given the way Dean's been pretty vocal about his opinions lately. If the writers wanted me to see those eps as character growth, then it makes me question whether I was supposed to see the other times as Dean standing up for himself as character growth or just more MEEN!Dean being mean. I see. Well, I disagree with everything you've said here but thanks for the clarification. 1 Link to comment
Myrelle March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 6 hours ago, shang yiet said: Actually, they did want you to have more sympathy for Dean since like I said above, end result was he was right after all and Sam was so wrong for daring to be angry over Gadreel. So you actually did what the writers wanted you to do. Then why did they come on twitter after the episode aired and declare those things to be "hard truths" that needed to be said? I think the extreme fandom backlash to it is what made them change the ending and nothing more. Kind of typical of the writing on this show, IMO; and Sam was never made to apologize for any of that vitriol precisely because Dean hadn't apologized for what he'd done. That also is typical of their brand of "balance" and while some may feel that Sam is rarely given an out for what he does, likewise, it can be argued neither is Dean-especially with in the confines of the brothers' personal relationship wherein Dean is rarely, if ever, allowed to speak up for himself or defend himself in a real way. Thus, to many, the lack of any true character growth within that relationship, in the last episode. IMO, everything/anything that's said about one brother(and yes, at this point Castiel also; at least as regards the writing for all of them), the same could be said of the other, with numerous examples always available to back that up. Again, I say IMO, it will always in the end come down to who the viewing audience can still sympathize with after all is said and done and who your "favorite(s)" is/are. There has been too much within the writing for all to be reviled at times, but also forgiven for almost anything they've done. If that isn't felt by a viewer for all of the main characters, it's for reasons other than just, simply, and only the poor writing, IMO-especially at this point in the series. And this is one of the reasons that some of us feel that the brothers would be better off physically separated within the show and within each season(not always, and not forever-but for more than a few scenes, yes) in order for any genuine character growth to take place. They are too different to keep living together and to expect the type of character change to truly take place that would lead each of them to truly being their own person, while still remaining familial brothers who are bound by blood. It happens in life all the time that people realize that they love each other, but they just can't live together all the time without destroying each other(and sometimes others involved in their lives also). This would be bold move for the writers to make or try, but I would still watch as I've been watching, as I'm sure countless other fans would, too. How many times has it been said that I'm in for the long haul, at this point. And even when some drop away, others come back. IMO, the audience that this show carries now will only dwindle if something bold isn't attempted. We are at S8B again with this show-again IMO. They need something to shake it up and separating the brothers AKA having them live separately for a time to come back together as stronger individuals precisely because they were separated and thus able to grow more As. Individuals. seems like a good experiment for these writers to try, IMO. Or at least, it couldn't hurt, again IMO-especially after watching this last episode. 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Myrelle said: They are too different to keep living together and to expect the type of character change to truly take place that would lead each of them to truly being their own person, while still remaining familial brothers who are bound by blood. It happens in life all the time that people realize that they love each other, but they just can't live together all the time without destroying each other(and sometimes others involved in their lives also). This would be bold move for the writers to make or try, but I would still watch as I've been watching, as I'm sure countless other fans would, too. How many times has it been said that I'm in for the long haul, at this point. And even when some drop away, others come back. IMO, the audience that this show carries now will only dwindle if something bold isn't attempted. We are at S8B again with this show-again IMO. They need something to shake it up and separating the brothers AKA having them live separately for a time to come back together as stronger individuals precisely because they were separated and thus able to grow more As. Individuals. seems like a good experiment for these writers to try, IMO. Or at least, it couldn't hurt, again IMO-especially after watching this last episode. I actually agree that it would be good for both brothers and the overall show for them to occasionally spend some time apart. There have been so many good storylines such as Sam finding himself at the beginning of season five, the purgatory year, and Demon Dean that have been wasted because of the shows dogged insistence on keeping them together rather than breaking away from the classic formula. The problem is, and the writers have admitted as much themselves, that they are too afraid of alienating the small but loud bro!only faction who would have a fit at the very idea of the show separating them for longer than a handful of episodes. Sadly, especially now as ratings appear to be dwindling, I dont see that fear of isolating any of the remaining audience disappearing. If anything it'll probably increase. Edited March 13, 2017 by Wayward Son 1 Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, auntvi said: This entire thread is about the ways Dean's behavior/character is poorly or unfairly written, especially in his feelings and behavior toward Sam. I don't quite get what you're saying to me. I'm aware of what the point of this thread is. Link to comment
ahrtee March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 I try to stay out of the brother wars because I know there are very strong opinions on both sides, and I know that no amount of explanation will change minds on either side. But The Purge speech happens to be one of my hot buttons, and sometimes I do feel the need to put in my 2 cents (or two dollars, since I usually talk too much.) 3 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I remember the writers of the ep tweeting that Sam was coming from a place of honestly. So it seemed they believed what he was saying. If Sam had stuck to issue at hand, then maybe but saying that Dean only sacrifices if he's not getting hurt, or telling Dean he does more harm then good? Those were lies and designed to hurt Dean. ... Dean gets what little self worth he has from helping others so saying that to Dean was worse than anything physical Sam could have done, and why it was more then just a few harsh remarks from Sam. This was the worst part of the speech to me. It was *deliberately* aiming at Dean's weakest points, and had nothing to do with the issue at hand. And, if you watch the scene, Sam wasn't talking out of anger--he was calm and deliberate. I know from experience that hurtful things said in anger can be rationalized away, brushed aside or forgiven, but words from someone you trust that are spoken coolly and deliberately are generally taken to be truthful, which means that (whether Sam meant it or not) *Dean* will believe that Sam meant every word. And, to me, deliberately hurting someone is worse than pain inflicted accidentally or with good intentions. This, of course, is JMO, based on my own past experiences, and I realize that others may not feel the same. For the rest of the speech--I don't think there was anything there that Dean didn't already know or hadn't already heard, and so he could accept it. When Sam blamed him for selling his soul back in season 2 and called him selfish, Dean shrugged and accepted it, saying something like, "yeah, it is. But you'll still be alive, so I'm OK with that." Sam *KNEW* his whole life that there was no way Dean was going to let him die *if he had any way to change/prevent it* so to expect him to change now would be incredibly naive. (Thinking on it, I believe that's the reason why Sam didn't tell Dean that he was infected by the rabids in 11.1--because he knew that Dean would do something stupid to try to stop it.) Frankly, I think turning to angels for help in season 9 instead of trying to make a demon deal was a step in the right direction. And he did everything the right way--for what it was worth. He first asked Cas for help, and when he couldn't get through, he turned to other angels, not witches or demons, and didn't offer anything except a favor from himself in trade. He checked with Cas to make sure "Ezekial" was a good guy. He tried to get Zeke to cure Sam from the outside, and it was only in desperation at the last second that he agreed to *ask* Sam *if he wanted to live.* That was Sam's choice. Dean's sin was in not telling him *how* he would save his life. But in later speeches, Sam seemed to blame him mostly for keeping him alive when he was prepared to die. That was the "choice" he seemed angriest about--and that was the one choice he *did* actually make on his own. I wrote a whole meta about this yesterday and then filed it away, thinking there was no real point, but I think I'll put in part of it here: If we were to put this in a different perspective: if a first responder at an accident finds someone trapped in a burning car that's threatening to explode momentarily and the only way to save him is to cut off his leg...what should he do? Now if the person is awake and screaming "I'd rather die than lose my leg!" should he just step away and let him burn? Or if the person says, "get me out of here!" and then sues the emergency crew for taking his leg, because they didn't specify *how* they would get him out, was it wrong for them to do it? And if the person trapped in the car is someone you love and have protected your whole life, can you be expected to just stand back and do nothing? I don't know if there's a "moral" right or wrong answer here (though I'm pretty sure there's a legal answer.) And I'm not addressing the "non-con" issues of what happens during possession right now. I also agree that the lying afterwards was what made things so much worse, but I also believe, as others pointed out above, that Dean tried to tell Sam but Gadreel stopped him--first with lies and then threats. And knowing Dean's character, I think there's no way anyone (especially Sam) could expect Dean to step back and watch Sam die if there's *any possibility* of stopping it. So you can damn Dean for "taking away Sam's agency" but if he did anything else, aside from it being the end of the show, it wouldn't be Dean, and it seems to me that fans get angrier when characters act OOC than when they do something stupid/hurtful that's in character. Both Sam and Dean have made a lot of strides in character growth over the years, but it seems that "I won't let my brother die" is the bedrock of their relationship--the line that, apparently, *neither one of them* is willing to cross. So it's not hypocritical or selfish of either of them in that context--it's just who they are, and they both know it. Again, JMO. 7 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wayward Son said: I actually agree that it would be good for both brothers and the overall show for them to occasionally spend some time apart. There have been so many good storylines such as Sam finding himself at the beginning of season five, the purgatory year, and Demon Dean that have been wasted because of the shows dogged insistence on keeping them together rather than breaking away from the classic formula. The problem is, and the writers have admitted as much themselves, that they are too afraid of alienating the small but loud bro!only faction who would have a fit at the very idea of the show separating them for longer than a handful of episodes. I honestly don't get what purpose this would serve, other than creating more contrived angst between the brothers. They aren't attached at the hip. They each go out and do their own things, have their own hobbies, spend time with other people. We just don't always get to see that. But they hunt together and the show is about both of them. We've seen them both on their own occasionally throughout the series, and neither one of them really seems to thrive without the other, with the exception of maybe Sam's Stanford years, but that doesn't really count as he wasn't hunting then. They are not just two brothers, they are a team of hunters. Their lives are not like other people's. Their relationship could and probably would be unhealthy for normal brothers, but they don't live normal lives. That's why their co-dependence doesn't bother me. There's a very good reason for it. Edited March 13, 2017 by MysteryGuest 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said: I honestly don't get what purpose this would serve, other than creating more contrived angst between the brothers. They aren't attached at the hip. They each go out and do their own things, have their own hobbies, spend time with other people. We just don't always get to see that. But they hunt together and the show is about both of them. We've seen them both on their own occasionally throughout the series, and the neither one of them really seems to thrive without the other, with the exception of maybe Sam's Stanford years, but that doesn't really count as he wasn't hunting then. They are not just two brothers, they are a team of hunters. Their lives are not like other people's. Their relationship could and probably would be unhealthy for normal brothers, but they don't live normal lives. That's why their co-dependence doesn't bother me. There's a very good reason for it. I personally don't think this has to be the case. I dont think it should become a regular thing or the writers should be thinking to themselves "we need to separate Sam and Dean... How can we do it?" However, if there comes a point in the storyline where a separation makes sense then they shouldn't let the story suffer by being afraid to go through with it. For instance the writers have admitted they only skipped the purgatory year so the brothers could reunite in the first episode of season 8. The same also applied to the demon Dean story which was limited to three episodes. There are many fans who feel these storylines were under-utilised and potential character development brushed over as a result of the writers limiting themselves. Seperation does not have to equal angst, in fact it could have even been better for their relationship. For instance the first half of season eight could have had Dean in purgatory fighting his way to get back to Sam, while Sam was doing all he could to free Dean on the other end. That certainly would have been much better than the Samelia and the "he left me to rot" angst we got instead. 3 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: For instance the writers have admitted they only skipped the purgatory year so the brothers could reunite in the first episode of season 8. The same also applied to the demon Dean story which was limited to three episodes. There are many fans who feel these storylines were under-utilised and potential character development brushed over as a result of the writers limiting themselves. Seperation does not have to equal angst, in fact it could have even been better for their relationship. For instance the first half of season eight could have had Dean in purgatory fighting his way to get back to Sam, while Sam was doing all he could to free Dean on the other end. That certainly would have been much better than the Samelia and the "he left me to rot" angst we got instead. I think we all have ideas for what we'd have liked to have seen with certain storylines over the years, but no matter what that storyline has been, the ultimate goal has always been to reunite the brothers. So more Purgatory episodes, Sam working with another hunter maybe to find Cas, Dean and Kevin...that could have been interesting. Sam's new hunter buddy vs. Dean's vampire buddy might have made for a good storyline. I'd have signed up for any or all of that instead of what we got. Of course, that's mainly because I hated the beginning of season 8 with a passion, so I'd have preferred just about anything to the way it actually played out. But for me at least, I prefer when the brothers are together. Edited March 13, 2017 by MysteryGuest 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Myrelle said: That also is typical of their brand of "balance" and while some may feel that Sam is rarely given an out for what he does, likewise, it can be argued neither is Dean-especially with in the confines of the brothers' personal relationship wherein Dean is rarely, if ever, allowed to speak up for himself or defend himself in a real way. Thus, to many, the lack of any true character growth within that relationship, in the last episode. I guess I'm not seeing what you mean here. I don't generally see Dean not being able to speak his mind when it comes to Sam. For me, he does it all the time. For example, in season 11 when it came to the "is it God" arguments, Dean was able to give his point of view readily - as was Sam. Just because Sam decided to do his own thing anyway, doesn't mean that Dean hadn't spoken up for himself and gotten his point across - and then his point of view was validated by the narrative. Just because Sam doesn't do everything Dean says, doesn't mean that Dean's not being allowed to speak up for himself. And if you're talking about things like "The Purge" speech and Dean not being able to "defend himself," Sam isn't the only one to spout untruths that go undefended. In the season 8 finale, Dean got to spout off Sam's sins, including stuff that wasn't even Sam's fault - like Sam being soulless - but Sam wasn't given any opportunity to object. This is just something that Carver liked to do in my opinion, and now it's become standard - like having Sam say that the BMoL killed the alpha vampire. But for me that's small potatoes compared to other ways the characters aren't allowed to grow. To me, the true lack of character growth in the relationship comes from character regression rather than not letting the characters "speak up." The travesty for me in the last episode was having Sam do a complete 180 from the beginning of the previous episode where Sam is understanding and defending Dean's stance to the end of that one/beginning of this episode where he's suddenly onboard, defending the BMoL for no apparent reason - because there was no way a rational human being wouldn't see what happened the previous episode as anything but total incompetence, in my opinion - and lying to Dean again - again for no apparent reason except to regress Sam backwards to season 4 like behavior. Which might be fine if we didn't have 7 years of character growth in between. I had the same complaint with season 8, because in my opinion the same thing was done there. Over in the episode thread, you mentioned a "bold move" for season 9B, and how you found that effective... and I'm glad for you that that was effective, except that for me as a viewer, I hated season 9B. I thought it was more of the same Dean's right/Sam's wrong plotlines we got in season 8. For me in season 8, Carver made a "bold move" by introducing new friends for Sam and Dean, but to me it failed miserably, because by splitting Sam and Dean up for that year and trying to make them "independent" he regressed them, turned them into complete jerks, or usually both. The flashbacks - especially Sam's - showed little except that the brothers were was pretty much a mess without each other. Any "belonging" was only surface stuff. 3 hours ago, Myrelle said: They are too different to keep living together and to expect the type of character change to truly take place that would lead each of them to truly being their own person, while still remaining familial brothers who are bound by blood. But are Sam and Dean really all that different now? Or are they only "different" when the plot decides to make them different by regressing them - well, usually Sam. Comparing Sam to how he used to be at the beginning of the series, he is now much more like Dean in my opinion than he is similar to himself back in season 1 - which is one of the reasons I think the claim that Dean is doing all of the compromising is a little exaggerated. As late as season 11, we have Sam admitting that hunting is now what he wants to do and that he can't imagine doing that without his brother. That's huge compared to how he was in season 1. He long ago agreed with Dean that John did the best that he could - another compromise in how Sam saw things. And Sam actually agreed with Dean on the hunting thing as far back as at least season 5 - and likely earlier - until the season 8 regression that is. They both agreed back in season 11 that they should get back to the "saving people" part of their family motto. I'm really not seeing all that much difference in their world views myself - except when the writers regress Sam or make him act weirdly OOC in my opinion. Let's take the "kill all monsters" thing the BMoL have going on for example. As the brothers are now, one of the compromises on Dean's side from how they started is that Dean now sees Sam's point of view that all monsters don't necessarily have to be bad, so, weirdly, now the writers have Sam siding with the "kill all monsters" BMoL. Really? Does it make sense that Sam would think that the BMoL would stop with destroying all vampires and not move on to destroying all werewolves - some of which are good friends of Sam's? Am I either supposed to believe that Sam's willing to give up Garth and his wife, and that werewolf girl what's her name, to die for the greater good or that Sam's just too stupid/naive/short-sighted to not realize that's what's going to happen? To me neither of those things makes sense and would be just changing Sam's behavior so it will be different from Dean's when recently there has been no huge difference. It's something they agreed on - just like hunting together and saving people. And Sam, in my opinion, isn't that naive* - and if he is now, that's a huge character regression. * I mean there's a difference between hopeful and just plain stupid, and knowing what Sam knows, him thinking that the BMoL would listen to any "but these werewolves aren't bad," arguments is just plain stupid - sorry. 3 hours ago, ahrtee said: This was the worst part of the speech to me. It was *deliberately* aiming at Dean's weakest points, and had nothing to do with the issue at hand. And, if you watch the scene, Sam wasn't talking out of anger--he was calm and deliberate. I know from experience that hurtful things said in anger can be rationalized away, brushed aside or forgiven, but words from someone you trust that are spoken coolly and deliberately are generally taken to be truthful, which means that (whether Sam meant it or not) *Dean* will believe that Sam meant every word. I can see your argument, but I disagree that Sam wasn't talking out of anger. Sam - and Dean too for that matter - have generally always been the cool kind of angry people. Less yelling and more calm, deliberate jabs. Physical anger is generally reverted into punching rather than yelling. Just my opinion on that. And Dean might have believed what Sam was saying, but by the end of the season, Sam pretty much rolled over to Dean's way of thinking, and Sam's valid hurts were swept under the rug, so Dean won anyway. And if Dean didn't know that Sam cared and valued him after the demon incident and mark of Cain incidences - where Dean got in his own pretty hurtful jabs - then in my opinion, that's on Dean, because Sam made it pretty clear: if not through apologies, then definitely through actions, in my opinion anyway. 4 Link to comment
Airmid March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said: I think we all have ideas for what we'd have liked to have seen with certain storylines over the years, but no matter what that storyline has been, the ultimate goal has always been to reunite the brothers. So more Purgatory episodes, Sam working with another hunter maybe to find Cas, Dean and Kevin...that could have been interesting. Sam's new hunter buddy vs. Dean's vampire buddy might have made for a good storyline. I'd have signed up for any or all of that instead of what we got. Of course, that's mainly because I hated the beginning of season 8 with a passion, so I'd have preferred just about anything to the way it actually played out. But for me at least, I prefer when the brothers are together. Part of the problem for me is that at times over the years it feels like they are so attached at the hip that they can't go to the John without the other supervising lest everything go to hell in a hand basket. While I wouldn't want to see it during major mytharc episodes, it would be nice to have a very occasional episode tossed in where they actually do other stuff separate from each other. Every once in a while that they pursue their very different interests. Some sign of a healthier relationship that helps break the cycle of co-dependency that at times has gotten so toxic it makes one not want to watch. I too hated the beginning of season eight with a passion. While I could see why Sam got to where he did it was never explained, never explored and instead all we got was angry vet flashbacks and a really confused look as to why these two were even together. Ugh. Not helped by Sam's weird deep seated issues with Benny when that went against character and really made the brother bond uncomfortable. What's even worse is that throughout season eight both brothers had terrible writing. I mean Dean blames Sam for being soulless twice, including the last episode where he claims it's something Sam should add to his confession. What?! Lulz, forgot, we were in lol!canon at that point. Then Sam turns around and gives one of the most self centered speeches ever as to why he's doing what he's doing. In my head it almost sounds like: "I want to be the hero, I even grew out my hair cape. You keep replacing me with angels and vampires and not that I'm allowed to do anything to redeem myself but it sucks. So here's some more guilt." Why Sam was doing the things he was doing was very clear if you knew the character, and I think written a little better could have come across that way. But the words they had him say, well it didn't put him in a good light or Dean any less needy and dependent. Yes, ritually sacrificing your brother should be a line not to cross but mmm, yeah, they didn't sell it well in the script. Not to mention in 8 we had Naomi, the only angel who at that time had true remorse, actually wept and talked about how they lost their way. Her next scene after that was her brutal murder with a physical object. While in heaven... At least the angels falling at the end was sobering and breathtaking. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) This is going to be a long ass post. So settle in...or don't. LOL . For purposes of this discussion I'm leaving out all the Cas/Hael stuff. The primary reason why I do not and will not condemn Dean to Hell for his decision to Save Sam by angel possession, is Sam's OWN words, deeds, and intentions, when Sam was of sound mind and body in Trial and Error. In Trial and Error, it was Sam's viewpoint that HE(Sam) should complete the trials because HE(Sam) wanted to live; that HE (Sam) would not be doing it as suicide mission (unlike what Sam thought was Dean's reasoning)**. Sam believed that he had a more valid rationale for doing the trials because he was doing them from a place of hope and that HE(Sam) would take himself and DEAN and (the world) to the light at the end of the tunnel. Quote DEAN Sam, I didn't pass the test. SAM But I did... And I'm doing the rest of them. DEAN My ass you are! SAM I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you. DEAN Sam... SAM I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it. IMO there was no equivocation in Sam's words to Dean. He was no longer suffering from the effects of the Lucifer hallucinations. He had been gone a year theoretically grieving Dean's death, healing and rebuilding his life by making a life with Amelia. Thus the rationale for Sam, stated by Sam himself, was that Dean SHOULD NOT do the trials and Sam should because Sam intended for everyone to live, INCLUDING HIMSELF. Sam said he wanted to live before he recited the Enochian spell. T As Sam was becoming weakened by the trials, Dean began to worry that Sam was going to die. Dean was willing to restart the trials himself, so Sam wouldn't die. But Sam insisted that he keep on going, but there was no real indication that Sam was devaluing himself along the way. Even with Sam's growing doubts about the success of the trials, his feeling that he was being purified, did not imply to me that had abandoned the guiding principle that 'EVERYBODY LIVES', including Sam. But that changed with the "SO" scene in Sacrifice. Dean explained to Sam that they have enough information for Sam to stop and they will figure out another way. Even IF Sam was doing the trials to prove to Dean that Dean could trust him, in that moment, in the "SO" moment, IMO, from Dean's POV, Sam was now suicidal and was no longer operating under the "EVERYBODY LIVES" mantra he set forth in Trial and Error. Dean didn't tell Sam that he(Dean) couldn't live without Sam. Those words literally never passed Dean's lips nor IMO did his actions show that. Dean was talking down his NOW suicidal brother. Sam finally said 'How do I stop" and Dean said, 'Just let it go'. then a couple of moments later Sam is collapsing in pain, they run outside to the car, and see the angels falling. The End. 9.1 picks up IMMEDIATELY after the end of s8, with Sam in the hospital. I'm guessing maybe a day or so at most passed. Dean is wearing the same clothes he had at the end of 8.23. The last best information was that Sam had wanted to live and survive the trials back in Trial and Error and that he chose to live in Sacrifice. In the first act of 9.1, Sam and coma! Dean are in the car and coma!Dean is telling Sam he is dying but needs to fight. IMO that is Coma!Sam remembering when he told Dean in the church that he wants to stop which means he chose to live. Coma!Bobby shows up and IMO that was ghost!Bobby who Sam is remembering who finally had to let go. Simultaneously Dean is yelling at the doctor because the doctor cannot give him any answers. Dean goes to pray for Cas, gets no answer and in a moment of fear filled desperation, with a side of PRIME DIRECTIVE MUST BE MET, he prays to all the angels and tells them where to find them. He literally says, "I wouldn't be asking if I didn't have need" Quote EAN (VOICE-OVER): The first one who can help me gets my help in return... The MAN IN A SUIT gets up and leaves the table. DEAN (VOICE-OVER): ...and you know that ain't nothin'. WOMAN: Honey? EXT. FIELD – DAY A FARMER walks rapidly across the field towards his tractor. DEAN (VOICE-OVER): Hell, it's no secret that we haven't always seen eye to eye. The FARMER starts the tractor and drives away. DEAN (VOICE-OVER):But you know that I am good for my word. EXT. – DAY The TALL MAN is still standing by the bus, listening. DEAN (VOICE-OVER): And, uh, I wouldn't be asking if I wasn't needing, so... Scene goes to coma!Sam with coma!Dean and coma!Bobby fighting about Sam living or dying. Quote How do you know that? DEAN: Because I'm you and you're you. All of this is you. We're in your head! SAM: You're serious. [exhales] The whole reason I stopped doing the trials was not to die. DEAN: And the next time we see Naomi or Metatron or whoever is to blame for this, we will get some justice, but for right now, we got to fight this, man. SAM: Okay. All right, what's the plan? DEAN:I'm working on it. SAM:What does that mean? I'm kind of dying here, apparently. DEAN: It means I'm working on it, all right?SAM The thing is, if I am dying – and I believe you. I do. But if you're you but you're really me and you're the part of me that wants to fight to live... DEAN: Yes. I have no idea what you just said, but continue.SAM But if you don't have any idea how I'm supposed to fight, then am I supposed to be fighting at all? DEAN:Are you serious? BOBBY:Hell, yes, he's serious. BOBBY has appeared in the back seat. BOBBY:And if you ask me, I think the kid's got a good point. Business suit angel answers Dean's prayer and they want Castiel. Dean won't answer and "Ezekiel" shows up to help but the angel doesn't recognize him. IMO the business suit angel figured out he was Gadreel and was going to kill him until Dean killed him. "Ezekiel" passes out. Dean then interrogates Ezekiel in a holy fire ring, who then offers Dean the help. Dean takes Ezekiel to see Sam. Switch to coma!Bobby and coma!Sam strolling through the woods and coma!Bobby(representing being tired of the fight, not necessarily wanting to no longer live) Quote EXT. COMA FOREST – DAY SAM and BOBBY walk through the forest. SAM I want to fight. I do. But I just feel like... BOBBY Like you got nothing to swing at? Like you're punching at shadows? You got to let go of fightin' and scratchin' and lookin' for loopholes, 'cause that ain't happenin'. SAM So – so, what? I - I - I just die? BOBBY Just die? All the good you've done, all the people you've saved, all the sacrifices you've made? You've saved the world, son. How many people can say that? How many people can say that they have left this godforsaken hunk of dirt that much a better place? What you call dyin' I call leavin' a legacy. Dean takes Ezekiel to see Sam. Ezekiel touches Sam's chest and says he doesn't have the strength to heal Sam. At that moment, Cas calls. Dean goes out of the room to talk to Cas leaving Ezekiel with Sam, alone. Dean tells Cas about Sam and Ezekiel and he vouches for him. Dean goes back into the room and Ezekiel is concerned. He looks pretty worried. Ezekiel said the angels are coming for vessels. Dean puts up the warding to keep the angels away from Sam and he tells Ezekiel' "Don't open the door for anybody but ME. SAVE HIM" as he points to Sam. (Cas/Hael scene) NOW THIS IS WHERE I AM CONVINCED THAT DEAN WAS NOT THE ONE IN SAM'S BRAIN SAYING "THERE AIN'T NO ME, IF THERE AIN'T NO YOU". That line is so ridiculous that I have to go with it being something Ezekiel THOUGHT Sam would need to hear. Hear me out. After watching this sequence I don't know how many times, my head!canon is that when Dean went out to fight the angels, "Ezekiel" was poking around in Sam's coma head because he needed to hide from the angels too. "Ezekiel" was scared for himself. I say this because in Sam's coma forest "Dean" stabs COMA!BOBBY IN THE BACK. It's just inconceivable to me that even if Sam held the most negative viewpoint of Dean, even if Sam HATED the ground Dean walked on, felt that Dean was cruel to him during their lives; if Sam believed in his heart that Dean would punch him to get him to fight back, I can't fathom why Sam's coma adled brain would conceive of Dean stabbing Bobby in the back to Save Sammy. (Unless Sam is conflating the time in Mystery Spot that he stabbed Bobby but it was really the Trickster, but I REALLY don't think that was the implication here). Not only did it not make sense to me that Sam would conceive on any level of Dean stabbing Bobby in the back, I thought Jensen played forest!Coma!Dean differently than car!Coma!Dean. I thought his face looked different and that he sounded too aggressive and too robotic. There wasn't a warmth to it that IMO was in play with car!Coma!Dean. So that's either how Sam sees Dean which is really fucking terrible or it was Ezekiel using Dean's face to get Sam to fight back because "Ezekiel" needed Sam's vessel ASAP. Once Ezekiel was connected to both Coma!Sam's head and real Dean's head, IMO, he saw the memories of Dean and Sam in the church and Dean's words to Sam about never putting someone in front of Sam. IMO, that was not Dean thinking the words that Ezekiel!Dean was saying. I think that was Ezekiel!Dean paraphrasing for maximum effect what Dean actually said, (or just not really getting what Dean said) Finally, if Sam was so committed to dying, that he was done fighting and done living he still had the chance to go with coma!Death even after he heard the pitch from Ezekiel!Coma!Dean. Instead he looked to Ezekiel!Coma!Dean and asked "What do I do". That doesn't sound to me like someone he has definitely decided that his life should end. If coma!Sam was to be respected for choosing to go with Death then he should equally be respected for not going with coma!Death. As to Dean being unable to live without Sam, IMO, if Dean couldn't live without Sam IMO, he would not have traded his soul for Sam's. He would have just killed himself out of grief; he would not have been willing to walk away from Sam in s4. He would have ignored Sam's request to go live a life in s6 and he would have just jumped into the pit with Sam or he would have killed himself after Sam jumped into the pit. So in the end, IMO, Dean used the last best info from Trial and Error and Sacrifice which Sam WAS CHOOSING TO LIVE. As always YMMV :) Edited March 13, 2017 by catrox14 **clarifying, I do not think Dean was suicidal in Trial and Error 7 Link to comment
Aeryn13 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 (edited) Quote In Trial and Error, it was Sam's viewpoint that HE(Sam) should complete the trials because HE(Sam) wanted to live; that HE (Sam) would not be doing it as suicide mission (unlike Dean). Sam believed that he had a more valid rationale for doing the trials because he was doing them from a place of hope and that HE(Sam) would take himself and DEAN and (the world) to the light at the end of the tunnel. And it didn`t take long for that to become "I`m on a heroic quest like I always dreamed of and the trials are purifiyng me". It now had shit all to do with living vs. dying, the important thing was the hero`s mission now. So for me, it wasn`t any sudden change in the Season 8 Finale. The "reasoning" in T&E was only there to clarify why Dean couldn`t be trusted with such a mission. If it wasn`t about him being "suicidal" - which is another version of "too weak to handle it" - it would have been about some other reason why he was too weak and not fit for such a quest. The writers couldn`t even buy into their own bullshit because they certainly couldn`t portray Dean as the great hunter, the genius or any of that empty buttering up from that speech. The next two episodes had him know shit about lore and be crap at hunting, not that, not getting the Hellhound wouldn`t already get that point across. Now the writers have cut that out altogether and Dean wanders off before action scenes. Guess he is still a hunter in name only. Edited March 13, 2017 by Aeryn13 3 Link to comment
ILoveReading March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 41 minutes ago, catrox14 said: In Trial and Error, it was Sam's viewpoint that HE(Sam) should complete the trials because HE(Sam) wanted to live; that HE (Sam) would not be doing it as suicide mission (unlike Dean). Sam believed that he had a more valid rationale for doing the trials because he was doing them from a place of hope and that HE(Sam) would take himself and DEAN and (the world) to the light at the end of the tunnel. Great post Catrox, I agree. I never thought Dean was suicidal in that speech. I thought he was being practical. That there was no way that God's obstacle course wasn't going to end in death. Since Sam wanted a future, and Dean always figured he'd go out swinging it made sense for him to the do the trials. Everything in that speech went out the window the minute Sam got the trials. Not a single thing was done on Sam's end to show Dean the light. I also found that the more Dean tried to fuss over Sam, the more Sam resented it. The more Sam saw it as Dean not thinking he was capable. The longer the season went on the more it came across as Sam containing to do the trials just to prove to Dean that he could. He even accused Dean of thinking he needed a chaperone. The problem here is that Sam did. When you're supposed to be too weak to stand you can't exactly be counted on no matter how good you are at something. Its not always about trust, something its just the way it is. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Great post Catrox, I agree. I never thought Dean was suicidal in that speech. I thought he was being practical. That there was no way that God's obstacle course wasn't going to end in death. Since Sam wanted a future, and Dean always figured he'd go out swinging it made sense for him to the do the trial I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I didn't think Dean was suicidal either. I was saying that Sam thought Dean was suicidal. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go back and alter my comment. 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 1 minute ago, catrox14 said: I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I didn't think Dean was suicidal either. I was saying that Sam thought Dean was suicidal. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go back and alter my comment. You don't have to alter your comment, I was just adding on to what you were saying. Sorry for the confusion. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 13, 2017 Share March 13, 2017 Just now, ILoveReading said: You don't have to alter your comment, I was just adding on to what you were saying. Sorry for the confusion. I was wondering when I made the original post if I should have been more clear in the first place! It's all good! Link to comment
Airmid March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 I don't think that at the time Sacrifice rolled around that Sam wanted to die. Not at all. Was he prepared to die? Yes, I think he was in some ways and there were signs throughout the episodes the involved the trials that Sam had a grip that he was in bad shape. In 8.17 when just one trial is completed we get: Quote SAM Dean, I'm telling you -- I'm okay. CASTIEL No, you're not. Sam... You're damaged in ways even I can't heal. Dean's right. You should stay here and protect Meg. How Gadreel even hoped to heal this I don't know. He was never established as being that strong, just God's most trusted and Cas himself a Seraph which is pretty up there on angel hierarchy in this show. Signs of Sam's deterioration, especially after the second trial start escalating in later episodes to become more and more life threatening and painful and it's obvious I think to Sam what's coming his way. A great problem I have with Dean acting on Sam's speech from Trial and Error as a proof to Sam's willingness to live is simply that he is a biased party. Not that he's a loved one but because Dean can't let go of anything. This comes through in Sacrifice when it's obvious that Dean still holds a grudge as he lists Sam's sins for confession which include his loss of his soul which Sam was in no way at all responsible for. That coupled with Dean's prime directive since childhood which is protect Sammy at all costs, well it wasn't about his brother's wishes at that point. Which is a point Sam broaches in Holy Terror and then gets lost in the rather ugly relationship the two have in later episodes. And Dean's not selling a part of himself, or all of himself for that matter, to save Sam. He is offering something that isn't his and that's just so unhealthy I can't even begin to describe it. It's one thing for a grief stricken, drunk, half crazed Dean Winchester to go sell his soul to hell to give Sam his life back. But here, with Gadreel, regardless of the angel's actions then or in later episodes, Dean was allowing something he had zero rights over. He could assume Sam's wishes but given his past judgement calls (which include killing himself to talk to Death, selling his soul, letting an archangel beat on him, letting his brother beat on him, etc) I wouldn't say it came from a good place. Season Seven did much better with Sam in trouble and Dean flipping through human resources to find a healer or a way to help him out. Season nine he prayed to angels who have done nothing but dick him around in the past. Cas is barely above his brother's in that he has chosen poorly over and over again at this point. The truth of the matter is for me is that Dean didn't know what Sam wanted in this scenario. Dean does know that back in "In My Time of Dying" that he was going to go with the reaper. He takes this choice away from his brother just like his father took the choice away from him. Same family mistakes all over again. Regardless of the angel showing up who was willing to help Dean would have been hell bent, IMO, to get Sam saved no matter the cost. There's only so far good intentions go and in this case, Dean's reasons are not good and they aren't really defendable in my book. Even the ending of Sacrifice feels so hollow. Sam talks about wanting his brother to believe in him then brings in his issues with Dean replacing' him with angels or vampires. Dean's little denial bubble over Sam's condition was popped by Naomi (who was honest and despite her wanting the gates closed - whatever that actually means - told Dean the truth knowing what would happen) tells Sam he would do anything to save him. An ominous statement that comes true in Season Nine's premier. Neither of them listen to the other about what each one truly wants. Both have selfish desires at this point and it bleeds through into the dialogue. This is the big reason I dislike the Carver era on SPN - all it seems to do at the end of the day is repeat bad choices. The brother's were functional when Dean was sucked into Purgatory. Season eight we get a Sam who can't be bothered with no true backstory to help viewers on how he got to that point, a Dean who is bitter, and a lot of things playing out in different but similar ways as previous years when everybody should have learned something. For me, it was exhausting to watch. 1 Link to comment
ahrtee March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 21 minutes ago, Airmid said: A great problem I have with Dean acting on Sam's speech from Trial and Error as a proof to Sam's willingness to live is simply that he is a biased party I'm not talking about an interpretation of Sam's speech in Trial and Error when I say it was *Sam's* choice to live. From I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here (from http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.01_I_Think_I'm_Gonna_Like_It_Here_(transcript): SAM What's going on? DEAN I found a plan. SAM It's too late. I'm going. DEAN No, no. No, no. Listen to me. SAM Why are you even here? I'm not fighting this anymore! DEAN You have to fight this! I can fix this, okay? But not if you shut me out. [to DEATH] It's not his time. DEATH That's for Sam to decide. DEAN Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain't whatever... But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you. SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN. SAM What do I do? DEAN Is that a yes? SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN. SAM Yes. However you look at it, however you believe Dean/Gadreel manipulated Sam, IT WAS HIS "YES" THAT WAS THE POINT. Dean was saying he had a plan to keep Sam from dying. Sam agreed to go along with him--not just on the spur of the moment, but taking time to think, to choose between Dean and Death, and he chose Dean. He could have said, "no, I'm done. I'm sorry," and gone with Death. Without that "yes," Gadreel wouldn't have been able to take possession. All Dean was saying was "you got to let me help," implying that he would help him stay alive, and Dean actually DID keep his word--he found a way to save Sam's life, which was all he was promising. It's just that Sam would not have agreed to the way it was done, if he'd had the chance to ask--but he didn't, any more than the man in the burning car would stop the paramedics and say, "wait a minute. How are you going to get me out?" One point I do want to make is that Dean isn't alone in doing stupid things to save his brother. The main difference is that he does it more often, since Sam is on the point of death more than Dean, apparently. But the time Dean was about to die in Faith, Sam wound up trading his life for an innocent man. Sure, he didn't know that would happen, but Dean didn't know that Ezekial was actually Gadreel and would kill Kevin. (No, I'm not saying that it was all right or even the same to let Gadreel possess him in the first place, just that there was precedent for going to ridiculous lengths. Sam also knew that Dean would *never* agree to trade his life for someone else's if he had known about it. So what do you think Sam would have done then?) I'm not even going to count Sam working with Ruby to try to save Dean's life during season 3 despite Dean's demand that he didn't want Sam to try, or his willingness to allow a centuries-old mass murderer go free so he could use his "scientific" way to prolong Dean's life, ignoring the point that, unless they figured out a way to break the deal, Dean would wind up having to harvest organs himself eventually, becoming a Frankenstein-like monster himself. No, I'm talking about the times Dean *actually* died. As I remember, the *only* reason Sam didn't bring him back was that no one would deal with him. He *tried* to make a crossroads deal. In Mystery Spot, he wound up turning to black spells and was willing to kill an innocent person--or Bobby--to get Dean back. Even in Do You Believe in Miracles, he was in the process of summoning Crowley to force him to bring Dean back when Dean became a demon. And we know what lengths Sam went to to track his brother down. And by season 11, we know that all "let him go" promises were absolutely pointless from both of them. I'm not saying this is bad, evil or even hypocritical. I'm saying it's the Winchester way, and if you blame Dean for what he did to get Sam back, you also have to blame Sam for his past actions. They're equally screwed up. 4 Link to comment
Airmid March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) Don't get me wrong - if Sam had done it instead of Dean I would blame him just as much. In the case of Gadreel Sam put his trust in Dean and that was shattered because Dean was making a deal without knowing the terms. I think that bothers me the most is that both characters keep making deals and doing things with questionable 'allies' without terms and/or having any kind of contingency plan. Throughout the series we have: - Mary makes a deal with unknown terms - Sam becomes a pawn of demons - John makes a deal - Michael is able to reset the timeline - Sam takes Dean to a Faith healer not knowing the terms - someone dies in Dean's stead - Dean sells his soul without really knowing the terms - breaks first seal eventually - Sam acts out of desperation, drinks demon blood without knowing the terms - breaks final seal - Bobby sells soul without concrete terms - almost can't break terms, gets dragged to hell anyways - Dean makes a deal with Death without a thought - lucky Death doesn't screw him over but Dean causes more innocent deaths - Cas makes a deal with Crowley with unclear terms - unleashes primordial evil through double cross at the end - Sam starts the trials with unclear terms (even an unclear outcome) - almost dies and doesn't complete - Dean makes a deal with Gadreel - brother is possessed, taken over, friend/prophet and others die - Dean makes a deal with Cain without full terms - bares MoC with no knowledge of its burdens - Sam makes deals to remove the MoC with unknown outcome - ends up unleashing primordial evil And now for the current season Marry and Sam are willingly working with a group of people that they know almost nothing about dragging Dean in with them. I'm not saying all the outcomes are their faults alone or that all of these were bad or evil etc. What I am saying is that it is a repeated mantra of this show that when times get desperate that they do things that have far reaching consequences assuming that they can fix it in the end. Or deal with it later. The one exception is the faith healer since Sam had no way of knowing that it was bound reaper and neither brother is responsible in any way for what happened there. And that's not even including all the questionable alliances they have had, especially with something like Meg who possessed Sam and John, murdered their friends and was gleefully evil. Yet thye don't just gank her on sight and instead willingly work with her to go into a base crawling with demons and hellhounds and then keep working with her later on. I don't hate Meg but you think somewhere it would have clicked that pretty much anybody else would have been a better ally, which is ironic because she didn't screw them over. Yes, they end up in bad situations and need help but they always get screwed at the end. And it doesn't really seem to change all that much. Dean with Gadreel is just one more example. Dean in season seven didn't call on supernatural creatures, and while it was a way to reintroduce Cas at least it was refreshing for him to find other means then making deals. But with Gadreel he is making a deal with terms that are not set in stone for someone who doesn't know what deal is being made. Sam has a deal made for him and in the end has his trust misplaced in Dean which is terrible. It's one thing to have characters in situations where they have to form alliances with questionable people. It's another to hit them over the head with a dumb stick so that the leads have no backup plans, no contingency, no intel and are caught with their pants down when it goes bad. And it always goes bad. EDIT - Also we have no way of knowing if that's Dean or Gadreel or both at that point. The problem I have is that Sam wanted to move on, Dean asked him not to but lied/lie of omission his way with a plan, and Sam had zero idea that he was getting an angelic squatter. In fact Dean asks him if that's a yes and it makes me think it's all Gadreel at this point and his brother had zero time talking to Sam. Again, not particularly clear here but in the end Sam had zero idea what he was saying yes to, outside of trusting his brother. That trust was then latter shattered and it was a terrible thing to do to both characters. Edited March 14, 2017 by Airmid 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) Quote However you look at it, however you believe Dean/Gadreel manipulated Sam, IT WAS HIS "YES" THAT WAS THE POINT. Dean was saying he had a plan to keep Sam from dying. Sam agreed to go along with him--not just on the spur of the moment, but taking time to think, to choose between Dean and Death, and he chose Dean. He could have said, "no, I'm done. I'm sorry," and gone with Death. Without that "yes," In my lengthy post, I referenced the discussion in the car between Dean and Sam in his coma head. Sam was looking for a plan from Dean. And Dean brought him that plan. coma!Sam didn't say NO ANGELS. He just asked for a plan to save his life and to know why he should keep fighting. Edited March 14, 2017 by catrox14 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 55 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: He even accused Dean of thinking he needed a chaperone. That's because Dean did think that and even said so, and Sam overheard it. And I don't think it had so much to do with Sam's weakened state either, from what I could tell. And Sam didn't really need a chaperone for what he was doing, because theoretically the last trial wasn't that difficult. Sam would have completed that last trial just fine except that he decided to stop... which given Carver's later track record was probably a good thing, because if Sam had finished it, it would more likely have been a killing Lilith redux and something entirely horrible would have happened. But anyway back to why I think I understand Sam's position here and why he was annoyed. Bear with me... First there was what Dean said before Sam went into confession: the laundry list of things Sam had done, including things that Sam thought Dean had forgiven him for - like Ruby and letting Lucifer out - and something that wasn't even Sam's fault - losing his soul (which Sam had even apologized for what he'd done during that time, but now Dean seemed to be holding a grudge for.*) So Sam already had a chip on his shoulder, and he'd come out to overhear Dean's conversation - which taking a look at that conversation... Second, so Dean had just now found out that Castiel had been working with Metatron - who Dean describes as a "full-on crazy, catlady-hoarder angel" - to do angel trials and close the doors to heaven, but Metatron has been taken by Naomi, the angel who screwed so badly with Castiel's brain that Cas tried to kill Dean. Castiel is saying that he's the only one who can do the trials but that he has to save Metatron from Naomi and he needs Dean's help. Whew that's a lot to process, but without missing a beat, Dean's conclusion on hearing all of this craziness is that Sam needs more watching after than Castiel? As if letting Castiel - who has been working on his own very secret mission he neglected to tell Dean about until now - go off on a mission against a powerful, dubious angel bitch to save a crazy angel whose motives Dean just questioned couldn't possibly go wrong. But Dean hears all of that and concludes he can't help Castiel, because "if anyone needs a chaperone to do the heavy lifting it's Sam." Really? That's what Dean got out of that? Gee, I wonder why Sam was a little annoyed by hearing that? (and later conflates that in his trial addled brain into questioning why Dean would trust an angel over him.) That's not exactly what I would have concluded from that situation. More like asking Castiel if he was completely out of his mind or at the very least if he was at all sure about his plan. I mean would dead Metatron really have been a bad thing at that point?** Just saying. * Not that I think this made sense for Dean to say, but see my above post concerning Carver doing this kind of shit. ** I came to love to hate him later on, but in season 8, he was a pain in the ass. 3 hours ago, catrox14 said: NOW THIS IS WHERE I AM CONVINCED THAT DEAN WAS NOT THE ONE IN SAM'S BRAIN SAYING "THERE AIN'T NO ME, IF THERE AIN'T NO YOU". That line is so ridiculous that I have to go with it being something Ezekiel THOUGHT Sam would need to hear. Hear me out. No need, to me that totally makes sense. But I'm not someone who thought the Gadreel situation wasn't forgiveable. It would've been easy for Dean to find out if Sam really wanted to be saved that way by telling Sam right away and giving Sam the choice to agree or reject Gadreel... or at least come to some kind of understanding. It wasn't as if Gadreel really needed Sam - because he had an alternate host body - so if Sam said no, it wouldn't be hurting Gadreel... so unless Gadreel needed Sam to do something nefarious, he shouldn't have really cared all that much if Sam chose not to be healed. In that way, Gadreel was kind of shady from the start. And I get that Dean wanted to save Sam, and I think if Dean had trusted Sam enough to explain that from the beginning - "hey you were dying, I had to make a quick decision, and you seemed to want to live. And now that you're conscious, I hope you keep letting Ezekiel heal you. Please, Sam, I need you here, and I know it's not ideal, and you can be pissed at me later, but let Ezekiel heal you first. Then you can kick my ass later." - I wouldn't have blamed him much at all. But when Gadreel started wiping Sam's mind, and Sam thought he was losing it, and Dean knew this was going on, but allowed it to continue... I was a bit less sympathetic. Not that what Sam said was exactly great - in fact it was awful (again see Carver and his shit) - but it annoys me that the show went there also. It underminded Sam's right to be angry about Dean's lying by first making it about something else that it wasn't actually about and then later in the season, downplaying it and sweeping it under the rug. And then finally turning the tables by having Sam do the same thing, but this time with disastrous results. 3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: And it didn`t take long for that to become "I`m on a heroic quest like I always dreamed of and the trials are purifiyng me". It now had shit all to do with living vs. dying, the important thing was the hero`s mission now. It's interesting to me that Sam is often criticized for this when if Dean had taken on the trials, wouldn't it be a very similar thing? If Dean supposedly wasn't suicidal, then he'd be doing it for a very similar reasoning of being on a hero's mission. And even if that could somehow be argued against - though truthfully I find the interpretation of Dean having no self-esteem by this time in the show extremely annoying and bordering on Mary Sue territory, but I get that I'm in the minority there - Castiel was going on a very similar "quest" for very similar reasons, which eventually lead to disastrous results, yet somehow I don't see Castiel being accused of having to be play hero and thinking he was the chosen one - even though Castiel said exactly that about his "quest." My opinion is so what if Sam felt that he was being purified and hoped that he could redeem himself with a heroic quest and maybe show Dean that he could handle something like that, too? Good on him. That's human, and something that I can relate to. In my opinion, it isn't as realistic to be undertaking something like that unless you think you can do it. If someone doesn't think they are good enough, why would they think they could undertake something like that? And I don't agree with the "always dreamed" part either. Sam was perfectly fine with Dean taking on the quest until he ended up being the one to kill the hellhound, and it was less practical to go find another one. 3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: So for me, it wasn`t any sudden change in the Season 8 Finale. The "reasoning" in T&E was only there to clarify why Dean couldn`t be trusted with such a mission. If it wasn`t about him being "suicidal" - which is another version of "too weak to handle it" To me it was more Dean's history of going in with guns blazing. That's not what I would call "weak," but it's also not what I would call necessarily a strategic way to get through three trials. I think Sam's point was less "suicidal" and more reckless, in that Dean would be less likely to worry about himself while doing the trials as long as the goal was going to be met... which is not exactly going to inspire confidence in anyone else that Dean's going to live through it. As for Dean not being shown as a good hunter, both Sam went through that in season 8. What did Sam kill in the second half of the season besides the hellhound and maybe a demon or two? Come to think of it, he didn't kill much in the first half of the season either. Dean got to kill a bunch of demons in purgatory and a bunch of Nazi zombies in "Pac Man Fever" I think. For me, Sam needed something to make up for his complete damseling in "As Time Goes By." My opinion only there, I realize, as most people like that episode. 3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: The next two episodes had him know shit about lore and be crap at hunting, The next two episodes included one of the worst (and offensive) episodes in the entire series and an episode where I don't think almost anyone would have known the lore, because the entire lore for the Greek (or was it Roman) gods was pretty much twisted beyond recognition anyway in that episode. I like to forget that those episodes even existed myself. 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ahrtee March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: First there was what Dean said before Sam went into confession: the laundry list of things Sam had done, including things that Sam thought Dean had forgiven him for - like Ruby and letting Lucifer out - and something that wasn't even Sam's fault - losing his soul (which Sam had even apologized for what he'd done during that time, but now Dean seemed to be holding a grudge for.*) I have to admit, I look on that particular discussion like I consider the Purge speech--something completely out of the blue and OOC that was just brought up to make a (bad) point and get the characters all angsty again. Because as far as I can tell, Dean *had* forgiven him for most of that stuff--had told him over and over again that killing Lilith/letting Lucifer out wasn't his fault, and *never* blamed him for losing his soul. It was as OOC for Dean to bring it up at this point as (IMO) it was for Sam to suddenly start crying that he was only trying to make Dean trust him over angels or vampires or whoever. Again, *never* brought up before. So I tend to get annoyed when people bring it up to show how Dean holds grudges forever (just like I hate to read anything about the Purge speech on either side--because it's such a sore point with me.) 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: And I don't think it had so much to do with Sam's weakened state either, from what I could tell. And Sam didn't really need a chaperone for what he was doing, because theoretically the last trial wasn't that difficult. As far as Sam needing a chaperone--I have to admit I don't remember particulars because I haven't seen the ep in a long time--it's not one I rewatch, even when on TNT, so I'll have to rely on your account. But, according to what you're saying, Dean did say Sam needed the chaperone "to do the heavy lifting." It may be your opinion that Sam didn't need help/the last trial wasn't that difficult; but IIRC, it involved Sam using *his own blood* to feed to Crowley, which, considering how weak he already was, might have been the final nail in the coffin if he let it get out of hand. As it was, by the time Dean returned, Sam was pretty much at the point of death *before* he completed the final trial. So IMO he did need someone to watch him, and Dean was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place--between a weakened brother who was trying to prove that he *didn't* need help while being left alone with a very untrustworthy demon, and a weakened angel about to face a much stronger known enemy who *was* asking for help. And Dean's default, as always, would be "help Sam." So the very fact that he did, indeed, go with Cas was proving something, though I'm not sure what. 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: It would've been easy for Dean to find out if Sam really wanted to be saved that way by telling Sam right away and giving Sam the choice to agree or reject Gadreel... or at least come to some kind of understanding. I don't think Dean had the time--at the time--to ask Sam. First of all, he was in a coma, and on the *very verge* of going off with Death. And I'm also pretty sure Dean knew that Sam would say no, so yeah, shady. But understandable according to his character, IMO. 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: And I get that Dean wanted to save Sam, and I think if Dean had trusted Sam enough to explain that from the beginning - "hey you were dying, I had to make a quick decision, and you seemed to want to live. And now that you're conscious, I hope you keep letting Ezekiel heal you. Please, Sam, I need you here, and I know it's not ideal, and you can be pissed at me later, but let Ezekiel heal you first. Then you can kick my ass later." - I wouldn't have blamed him much at all. It would absolutely have been the right thing to do. But then the writers wouldn't have gotten a whole season of angst out of it. But this goes back to my original point that the boys do stupid things that they *know* the other one wouldn't want/would be angry at. BOTH of them. So it's not really fair to put all the blame on one when the other has done something at least very similar in the past, and they'd both do the same thing over again. It doesn't mean that they can't be angry at each other, but if the writers didn't make the anger and bitterness so intense then it wouldn't seem like such an unexpected and unwelcome about face when later they back down/change their minds. Because, yeah, they always do--so far, even if they don't apologize. BOTH of them. 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: My opinion is so what if Sam felt that he was being purified and hoped that he could redeem himself with a heroic quest and maybe show Dean that he could handle something like that, too? I wouldn't mind this except that it's been repeated *so many times* that it's become almost a joke to me--as in, how much redemption does he need? When will he actually *believe* he's been absolved? Way back in s.5, Dark Side of the Moon, Joshua said outright that Sam had been "granted absolution" *from God* (who we didn't know at the time, so it was actually a Big Deal.) Sam jumped into the pit at the end of the season, in order to gain redemption for supposedly turning Lucifer loose, even though everyone at the time told him it wasn't his fault. He spent the last half of s.6 trying to make up for things that Soulless Sam had done, despite Dean assuring him that it wasn't him. Then, in that horrible s.7 episode with Osiris he declared to Dean that he didn't feel guilty any more because his time in the pit had cleansed him. And then, all of a sudden, in The Great Escapist (or was it Clip Show?) he declared that he'd *ALWAYS* felt impure, and that he needed the trials to purify him. Really? (And yes, I'm ignoring Chuck's out-of-the-blue blame-speech in s. 11 which falls into the same stupid category as the Purge, Dean's accusations and Sam's teary confession in Sacrifice--solely to rack up the angst (and anger) again.) I just wish the fans would wipe out the OOC moments when they're bringing up reasons to hate one brother or the other. It's fine to bring them up to complain about the writers, IMO. But personally, it's my UO that, if the boys can forgive each other, it's about damned time that the fans did too. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, ahrtee said: have to admit, I look on that particular discussion like I consider the Purge speech--something completely out of the blue and OOC that was just brought up to make a (bad) point and get the characters all angsty again. Because as far as I can tell, Dean *had* forgiven him for most of that stuff--had told him over and over again that killing Lilith/letting Lucifer out wasn't his fault, and *never* blamed him for losing his soul. It was as OOC for Dean to bring it up at this point as (IMO) it was for Sam to suddenly start crying that he was only trying to make Dean trust him over angels or vampires or whoever. Again, *never* brought up before. So I tend to get annoyed when people bring it up to show how Dean holds grudges forever (just like I hate to read anything about the Purge speech on either side--because it's such a sore point with me.) I thought this was a way to build sympathy for Sam before he gave the speech about Dean choosing vampires and angels over Sam. Otherwise I have no idea why it exists. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, ahrtee said: I have to admit, I look on that particular discussion like I consider the Purge speech--something completely out of the blue and OOC that was just brought up to make a (bad) point and get the characters all angsty again. Because as far as I can tell, Dean *had* forgiven him for most of that stuff--had told him over and over again that killing Lilith/letting Lucifer out wasn't his fault, and *never* blamed him for losing his soul. It was as OOC for Dean to bring it up at this point as (IMO) it was for Sam to suddenly start crying that he was only trying to make Dean trust him over angels or vampires or whoever. Again, *never* brought up before. So I tend to get annoyed when people bring it up to show how Dean holds grudges forever (just like I hate to read anything about the Purge speech on either side--because it's such a sore point with me.) As far as Sam needing a chaperone--I have to admit I don't remember particulars because I haven't seen the ep in a long time--it's not one I rewatch, even when on TNT, so I'll have to rely on your account. But, according to what you're saying, Dean did say Sam needed the chaperone "to do the heavy lifting." It may be your opinion that Sam didn't need help/the last trial wasn't that difficult; but IIRC, it involved Sam using *his own blood* to feed to Crowley, which, considering how weak he already was, might have been the final nail in the coffin if he let it get out of hand. As it was, by the time Dean returned, Sam was pretty much at the point of death *before* he completed the final trial. So IMO he did need someone to watch him, and Dean was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place--between a weakened brother who was trying to prove that he *didn't* need help while being left alone with a very untrustworthy demon, and a weakened angel about to face a much stronger known enemy who *was* asking for help. And Dean's default, as always, would be "help Sam." So the very fact that he did, indeed, go with Cas was proving something, though I'm not sure what. I don't think Dean had the time--at the time--to ask Sam. First of all, he was in a coma, and on the *very verge* of going off with Death. And I'm also pretty sure Dean knew that Sam would say no, so yeah, shady. But understandable according to his character, IMO. It would absolutely have been the right thing to do. But then the writers wouldn't have gotten a whole season of angst out of it. But this goes back to my original point that the boys do stupid things that they *know* the other one wouldn't want/would be angry at. BOTH of them. So it's not really fair to put all the blame on one when the other has done something at least very similar in the past, and they'd both do the same thing over again. It doesn't mean that they can't be angry at each other, but if the writers didn't make the anger and bitterness so intense then it wouldn't seem like such an unexpected and unwelcome about face when later they back down/change their minds. Because, yeah, they always do--so far, even if they don't apologize. BOTH of them. I wouldn't mind this except that it's been repeated *so many times* that it's become almost a joke to me--as in, how much redemption does he need? When will he actually *believe* he's been absolved? Way back in s.5, Dark Side of the Moon, Joshua said outright that Sam had been "granted absolution" *from God* (who we didn't know at the time, so it was actually a Big Deal.) Sam jumped into the pit at the end of the season, in order to gain redemption for supposedly turning Lucifer loose, even though everyone at the time told him it wasn't his fault. He spent the last half of s.6 trying to make up for things that Soulless Sam had done, despite Dean assuring him that it wasn't him. Then, in that horrible s.7 episode with Osiris he declared to Dean that he didn't feel guilty any more because his time in the pit had cleansed him. And then, all of a sudden, in The Great Escapist (or was it Clip Show?) he declared that he'd *ALWAYS* felt impure, and that he needed the trials to purify him. Really? (And yes, I'm ignoring Chuck's out-of-the-blue blame-speech in s. 11 which falls into the same stupid category as the Purge, Dean's accusations and Sam's teary confession in Sacrifice--solely to rack up the angst (and anger) again.) I just wish the fans would wipe out the OOC moments when they're bringing up reasons to hate one brother or the other. It's fine to bring them up to complain about the writers, IMO. But personally, it's my UO that, if the boys can forgive each other, it's about damned time that the fans did too. This made me chuckle because when you put it this way, this is an excellent question. Especially when in s7, Sam said he didn't really feel any guilt because after he jumped into the pit.... This is why the writing, the guilt, the etc all would have made so much more sense if Dean was doing the trials. Dean has a LOT of shit he feels he can never get redemption for...like I dunno all the souls in Hell he tortured.. 3 Link to comment
Airmid March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: In my lengthy post, I referenced the discussion in the car between Dean and Sam in his coma head. Sam was looking for a plan from Dean. And Dean brought him that plan. coma!Sam didn't say NO ANGELS. He just asked for a plan to save his life and to know why he should keep fighting. There's kind of a difference between saying yes to some crazy Dean plan (because his plans are often wondrously insane) and saying yes to having some random angel that no one knows stuffed into you without your knowledge. Especially when a demon has done that to you. Oh and a teenager stole your body to say 'Up with Satan' and had sex with it. And Sam could probably write a nice little ditty about 'Satan is my copilot'. All of those are why this is actually worse happening to Sam over Dean but it's still, wow, terrible call. That's some huge violations of trust right there, and as Dean said to Cas all the way back in Season Four in the Beautiful Room "There is right and there is wrong." Dean knew this was wrong and he did it without trying absolutely anything else. I mean didn't he still have the King of friggin' hell as his prisoner in the car trunk? Or a prophet sitting in a lair terrified but surrounded by centuries of knowledge and ingredients? Or Sheriff Sassy with her rolling library? Did all the phones break? I mean Sam had been at the hospital for a while - he had a room, it takes a bit to get that going, the patient situated and all the tests run and studied. It wasn't like he was dying in the middle of an ER waiting room. It's compounded not by Dean being used by Gadreel but by the fact that he goes out, hunts with Cas and still doesn't ask for help. Nor does he warn Kevin. No, he leaves the kid with a shifty angel infected brother and a demon. Umm... To be honest I really am a Dean girl (not that I dislike Sam, I don't) and I think that's why I despise season nine so, so much. It's this stuff on top of other things like angel wars because all angels know is how to kill each other and we murdered the only angel who found redemption and remorse in Sacrifice because reasons. 1 minute ago, catrox14 said: I thought this was a way to build sympathy for Sam before he gave the speech about Dean choosing vampires and angels over Sam. Otherwise I have no idea why it exists. Didn't they have some weird jealously streak in Sam during that whole season? Why he didn't like Benny and wanted to gank him right away (which is massively OOC for Sam seeing as just last season he was all for not killing Amy Pond who he knew had issues). Some sort of paranoia that Dean was trying to shove him out of his little brother slot and find something else that fit? Even though Sam was busy for several episodes choosing a chick over his brother. Again. Sigh. If it was for sympathy then holy tap dancing teddy bears did that fail, at least for me. I wanted to reach through the screen and whack him over the head for that bit of stupidity the writers put in his mouth. Link to comment
catrox14 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Airmid said: Dean knew this was wrong and he did it without trying absolutely anything else. I mean didn't he still have the King of friggin' hell as his prisoner in the car trunk? Or a prophet sitting in a lair terrified but surrounded by centuries of knowledge and ingredients? Or Sheriff Sassy with her rolling library? Did all the phones break? I mean Sam had been at the hospital for a while - he had a room, it takes a bit to get that going, the patient situated and all the tests run and studied. It wasn't like he was dying in the middle of an ER waiting room. Wait, what do you mean it's not like he was dying in the middle of an ER? What does that have to do with anything? The episode literally picked up hours MAYBE a day after Sam was injured. He was in a coma and the doctor said he had no idea how to help him or whether he would live. Life threatening is life threatening ER or Intensive Care. Quote DOCTOR The MRI shows massive internal burns affecting many of the major organs. Oxygen to the brain has been severely deprived. The coma is the result of the body doing everything in its limited power to protect itself from further harm. DEAN This wasn't supposed to happen. DOCTOR If your brother continues on this trajectory, the machines might keep him alive, but – DEAN He'll be dead. DOCTOR Technically, yes. I'm afraid so. DEAN So, there's – there's no recovery? I mean, there's no bounce-back. There's no nothing. DOCTOR I'm afraid that's in God's hands now. DEAN You're a doctor. You're a medical professional. You're trying to tell me that my brother's life is in God's hands? What, is that supposed to be a – a comfort? DOCTOR Mr. Dougherty – DEAN No, God has nothing to do with this equation at all. DOCTOR I didn't mean – DEAN That's not good enough. 17 minutes ago, Airmid said: To be honest I really am a Dean girl (not that I dislike Sam, I don't) and I think that's why I despise season nine so, so much. It's this stuff on top of other things like angel wars because all angels know is how to kill each other and we murdered the only angel who found redemption and remorse in Sacrifice because reasons. I'm a Dean girl/TFW girl and I really like most of s9. It's funny how we all have different reactions to things. Edited March 14, 2017 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
Airmid March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 6 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Wait, what do you mean it's not like he was dying in the middle of an ER? What does that have to do with anything? The episode literally picked up hours MAYBE a day after Sam was injured. He was in a coma and the doctor said he had no idea how to help him or whether he would live. Life threatening is life threatening ER or Intensive Care. Heh, sorry that was my fault for being unclear. I mean Dean had enough time to go seek other options, he had a few hours in there while Sam was being worked on and they wouldn't have let him by Sam. So what was he doing? If he was worried enough he could have started coming up with a plan right then and there knowing that the damage was supernatural in nature. I mean even a frantic call to Kevin, the prophet who reads the tablets, would make more sense than jumping straight to angels in my mind. And I suppose that is part of the problem - that Dean's first reaction is to call on the angels. Why would he do this? At best their passive aggressive seething hostility towards him for the most part and at worse they try to stab and/or manipulate him. For his character it makes zero sense to me, especially after he just witnessed all the angels falling. It's already a volatile situation with heaven, he doesn't really know what's going on out there at first until he clears who he thinks is Ezekiel with Cas and he tries literally nothing else. Dean doing amazingly stupid thing #102 to save Sam? Yep, not an issue, it's just to me, from start to finish it doesn't jive with his character. From his willfully telling angels where he is and pleading for help to just accepting what a random angel tells him at face value. For me, if they made him smarter about his choices instead of knee jerk (which is hard when your loved one is hanging on barely but this isn't a first for Sam) then it could have worked. It just makes little sense given his history with heaven, the fact he's the reason their leader is in hell among other things. And it makes me sad that back when Sam was committed to a mental hospital back in season seven Dean tried earthly measures to fix a supernaturally caused problem. Which showed progression - he wasn't doing the most reckless thing imaginable right away. 15 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I'm a Dean girl/TFW girl and I really like most of s9. It's funny how we all have different reactions to things. Definitely. I do know I like some episodes that people can give me the stink eye over and heavily dislike other things that people really liked. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, ahrtee said: It was as OOC for Dean to bring it up at this point as (IMO) it was for Sam to suddenly start crying that he was only trying to make Dean trust him over angels or vampires or whoever. Again, *never* brought up before. So I tend to get annoyed when people bring it up to show how Dean holds grudges forever (just like I hate to read anything about the Purge speech on either side--because it's such a sore point with me.) Actually I agree with you here. I put an "*" with a note below that section of the post saying pretty much that same thing. But for others here who are fairly new: Hi, my name is AwesomO. I have a problem with most of the Carver years. 15 minutes ago, ahrtee said: I wouldn't mind this except that it's been repeated *so many times* that it's become almost a joke to me--as in, how much redemption does he need? When will he actually *believe* he's been absolved? I don't see it as having been repeated that many times. I actually only remember the two times. The end of season 5 and the end of season 8, unless I'm missing something. And Sam wouldn't have even needed the second time if Carver hadn't decided to have Sam inexplicably decide "screw Kevin. It's not my responsibility he got taken by Crowley." And not look for Dean. And be weirdly antagonistic to Benny (I hate season 8 so, so much). As for how much redemption does Sam need - according to Carver apparently a lot, since he seems to find it necessary to make Sam do crappy things, say crappy things, and lie a lot, and when he does manage to have Sam do something semi-good like save his brother, apparently it has to start an apocalypse. Which gets a couple 1000 people killed. Which Sam got no absolution for really, since he didn't really fix it, but instead helped to make it worse, because Lucifer. But that's okay, because Sam seems to be okay with it, so I'm okay... at least until the current season inevitably makes him mess up again since we're currently headed that way again... yay? 26 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Way back in s.5, Dark Side of the Moon, Joshua said outright that Sam had been "granted absolution" *from God* Well, yes he did, but not without the reprimand - for Sam - of "and after everything you've done, too," pretty much conveying that God granted Sam "absolution," but according to Joshua, Sam didn't really deserve it. I wouldn't call that all that comforting myself for someone who already felt pretty guilty. 53 minutes ago, ahrtee said: Sam jumped into the pit at the end of the season, in order to gain redemption for supposedly turning Lucifer loose, even though everyone at the time told him it wasn't his fault. He spent the last half of s.6 trying to make up for things that Soulless Sam had done, despite Dean assuring him that it wasn't him. Well, Bobby told him it wasn't his fault. Dean wavered on that point*. Everyone else who knew about it (at least two groups of hunters, demons, Castiel**, Joshua) either outright said or heavily implied that it was Sam's fault. As for season 6, I thought that Sam was fairly pragmatic. He tried that one time to make amends, but when it "scratched" at the wall, Sam listened to Dean and let it rest. He did apologize to Dean, but I think Dean needed to hear that, to know that Sam understood how bad it had been for Dean. He also let Dean know that he appreciated Dean saving him from hell. The Gamble years - when Sam was actually allowed to be grateful to and say nice things to Dean. * Though I'll admit that the main episode that happened in was a terrible episode, so that is a bit iffy. Sam already had enough guilt about Dean though, so there was enough that he wanted to make amends there for anyway. **Granted the first time Castiel blamed Sam, he also blamed Dean, which was rich considering Cas conveniently didn't blame himself... even though Castiel was more a cause of it than Dean was. Dean had the world saved by putting Sam in the panic room, before Cas let him out. Dean could've potentially saved the world again, except that Castiel helped hold him prisoner in the beautiful room until it was too late, but nope Castiel blamed Dean and Sam. Nice Cas. The second time, it was just Sam he was talking to. 2 hours ago, ahrtee said: It would absolutely have been the right thing to do. But then the writers wouldn't have gotten a whole season of angst out of it. But this goes back to my original point that the boys do stupid things that they *know* the other one wouldn't want/would be angry at. BOTH of them. So it's not really fair to put all the blame on one when the other has done something at least very similar in the past, and they'd both do the same thing over again. Oh I agree. And I don't blame one more than the other - I like both Sam and Dean. Generally I blame Carver (see above statement.) 31 minutes ago, ahrtee said: But, according to what you're saying, Dean did say Sam needed the chaperone "to do the heavy lifting." It may be your opinion that Sam didn't need help/the last trial wasn't that difficult; but IIRC, it involved Sam using *his own blood* to feed to Crowley, which, considering how weak he already was, might have been the final nail in the coffin if he let it get out of hand. As it was, by the time Dean returned, Sam was pretty much at the point of death *before* he completed the final trial. So IMO he did need someone to watch him, and Dean was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place--between a weakened brother who was trying to prove that he *didn't* need help while being left alone with a very untrustworthy demon, and a weakened angel about to face a much stronger known enemy who *was* asking for help. And Dean's default, as always, would be "help Sam." So the very fact that he did, indeed, go with Cas was proving something, though I'm not sure what. Heh, actually my point wasn't that Sam didn't need the help - I agree that he very well could have used it actually - it was that Castiel's story was so insane (and if you don't remember it, trust me, it was insane) that I couldn't believe that Dean just sat there listening to it without getting a headache, but instead just pretty much said to the effect "well, that's nice Cas, but I'm more worried about Sam messing up," when alarm bells should've been going off in Dean's head... because it was Naomi! and Metatron! and Castiel can be kind of naive, so it was a recipe for disaster from the start. So yes, Dean did go, but my main point was that he shouldn't even have had to be talked into it, he should've been all over it from the start... because even with help, as soon as Dean turned his back on Cas for just a moment and went back to save Sam... bam angels falling out of the sky, heaven cut off, and pretty much chaos. 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 At the moment I haven't much to say on the debate since @AwesomO4000 is arguing on Sam's behalf better than I ever could! However here is a related UO. I think it's a shame Castiel was a human at the time. I think it could have been interesting to see Cas (someone they trusted) agree to possess Sam while he healed. It would have gotten rid of the non-con issues I have with the storyline (provided Sam knowingly agreed of course). The fact that it was a trusted friend possessing him would help explain Sam allowing it in spite of his history with Meg and Lucifer possessing him. And in a purely vain note... I'd LOVE to see Jared's take on Cas. I just think it'd be hilarious (in a good way). 2 Link to comment
trxr4kids March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: At the moment I haven't much to say on the debate since @AwesomO4000 is arguing on Sam's behalf better than I ever could! Dammit, which one of you hooligans let her out of her corner? Sorry, I'll show myself out. ;) Edited March 14, 2017 by trxr4kids 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) On 3/12/2017 at 6:49 PM, DeeDee79 said: Jack McCoy is one of the best characters ever created I meant to comment on this earlier... Yes, he was. It's one of the reasons I stayed with Law & Order so long. Also Briscoe (played by Jerry Orbach). The writing on the show was generally good, but without those characters bringing it to life, I wouldn't have stuck with it until the end. And I tend to have a show "type." Given my druthers, I tend to prefer NBC characters. For example L&O vs NCIS... for me it was no contest (It's weird. I know NCIS is popular. My Nana used to love it, but when I tried to watch it with her I could barely keep my eyes open.) Crossing Jordan vs CSI - though CSI was more popular, I liked CJ much better. Again, it was the characters. And weirdly, it's been that way since the 80s practically - Hill Street Blues, ER, St. Elsewhere, Homicide... all NBC shows. Interesting example. Even though it was CBS studio produced, Medium used to run on NBC - I loved the family dynamic on the show. The husband, Joe, played by Jake Weber, was great. The last 2 seasons it moved over to CBS... and practically ruined the whole series for me. (The finale especially was awful - one of those things where they tried to get "fancy" and did an alternate reality type thing where the husband supposedly died instead of not, messing up stuff that had happened on the show previously. It was weird and wrong. And he was supposedly waiting for her in heaven, and believe me... soapy, sappy, insulting, and just wrong.) Hee, it's funny the way that is... Okay, sorry I got off track... back to our regularly scheduled thread, but the main point of all this is, for me: It's the characters stupid! So let the characters actually be who they're supposed to be and I promise I'll keep watching. Edited to add: Quote Dammit, which one of you hooligans let her out of her corner? Hee, I just don't behave. ; ) (This is why I can't have nice things.) Edited March 14, 2017 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment
Myrelle March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 22 hours ago, ahrtee said: I try to stay out of the brother wars because I know there are very strong opinions on both sides, and I know that no amount of explanation will change minds on either side. But The Purge speech happens to be one of my hot buttons, and sometimes I do feel the need to put in my 2 cents (or two dollars, since I usually talk too much.)... I don't think you talk too much and this particular post of yours said it all for me. So thank you for that. As an aside, my own hot button issue with this show concerns the lack of focus on Dean's always there from childhood parentification and abandonment issues. All we ever get from these writers is that Dean has them. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing on the real toll that they take on a person's life esopecially into adulthood-which is where Dean is presently at. Dean feels that saving Sam at all costs is the right thing to do. He truly feels that way and it's all because of those issues. He has zero sense of self because of them and that's why he can never leave Sam OR let him go, in any way. It's a terrible thing to do to a child and it affects their sense of their own agency and ability to form lasting, healthy relationships into adulthood, too. This is where Dean is at also. And if bringing the mother back doesn't involve a deeper look into this part of Dean's psyche and characterization than nothing ever will, IMO. And sadly, at this point, I don't think it's going to. I think that the writers just like to bring it up as plot point to highlight how fucked up Dean is and create angst between the brothers, but then it's dropped(as likely and in a similar fashion as to how Samfans feel that his consent issues are dropped). These things from childhood have affected both brothers so profoundly and are so intertwined within the relationship that they will likely never go away while the brothers remain living in each others' pockets-because they feed off of each other's issues and even encourage the dysfunctions within each other even further while being completely unconscious of the fact that they actually do that to each other. IMO, there will never be true character growth for either of them until one of them is allowed to form a lasting and more healthy relationship outside of the sibling one and wherein the person that they love can mean as much to them as their sibling because THAT would be healthy and what they have and have had between them since childhood, simply is not and never will be. JMO, of course. 18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: But are Sam and Dean really all that different now? Or are they only "different" when the plot decides to make them different by regressing them - well, usually Sam. IMO, they are very different and their differences were highlighted in many episodes over the course of this series; and as recently as Regarding Dean, but even going as far back as What Is and What Should Never Be. As was stated in that episode, the only real thing that they have in common is hunting, but even in that they differ greatly, IMO, in things such as to how they hunt and, more importantly, how each one wants to hunt and what each one wants/likes/needs to get out of hunting, in addition to, and right down to the simple likes and dislikes of all the activities that are part and parcel of hunting. In short, I think it has been made clear that the brothers are very different individuals and I further think that it has been made clear-and even as recently as in this last episode-that as long as they live together and remain in each others' back pocket, there will never be any true character growth for either one. Hunting together does not have to equal living together and/or being unable to have a loving relationship with another individual that rivals the sibling relationship in some way and/or being unable to disagree about any hunt that might come up and/or who each might want or not want to work with on a hunt. So hopefully, the codicil that Dean attached to agreeing to hunt with the Brits will not be forgotten by anyone(characters or writers) when their true colors are revealed. But sadly, I fear that that codicil was only put in there to appease the fandom and trick them into thinking that what they saw there was indeed some sort of character growth, when, in truth, it was just more of the same old, same old as regards brotherly interactions on this show and as JA/Dean telegraphed so well in that last scene(I just watched that last scene again and his interactions with Crowley and I would totally disagree with anyone who says that Jensen didn't give it his all in this episode. As always and IMO, he again did everything that he possibly could to keep Dean IC while also trying with all his might to make this horrific script somehow work. Again JMO, and miles will of course vary on this, and as is the case with almost everything on this show now. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, Myrelle said: IMO, they are very different and their differences were highlighted in many episodes over the course of this series; and as recently as Regarding Dean, but even going as far back as What Is and What Should Never Be. We will have to agree to disagree. "What Is..." wasn't even real Sam. It was how Dean imagined Sam would be without hunting, but that Sam doesn't exist, because their lives did have hunting. The real Sam was doing all that he could to find Dean, and he did find Dean. The real Sam at the end of the episode assured Dean that what they did to save people was worth it. Even as far back as then, Sam had changed his direction in life back to hunting, and realizing it was important. By "Afterschool Special," Sam had pretty much decided that his college days were something he perhaps had to try for, but they didn't really make him happy. That attitude continued over the next 3 seasons... until Carver decided to regress Sam, in my opinion anyway. 15 minutes ago, Myrelle said: As was stated in that episode, the only real thing that they have in common is hunting, but even in that they differ greatly, IMO, in things such as to how they hunt and, more importantly, how each one wants to hunt and what each one wants/likes/needs to get out of hunting, in addition to, and right down to the simple likes and dislikes of all the activities that are part and parcel of hunting. Again we'll have to agree to disagree, because until this last episode where Sam suddenly decided he was with the BMoL for no apparent reason that I could see, I thought that Sam and Dean hunted well together which, if their hunting styles differed so greatly, I don't think that would be the case. Nor would Sam be comfortable with "What's the plan, Dean?" if they weren't on the same page, in my opinion. And the differences they do have, compliment each other. This new difference in how each one wants to hunt, for me, is contrived right now for plot purposes and to put them on opposite sides, but to me it's not one that really exists... because I suspect that as soon as the BMoL shortcomings are revealed, Sam will "see the error of his ways" and he'll be right back to where he was before the plotonium made him somewhat of an idiot. As I mentioned above, to me it seems out of character that Sam is all of a sudden okay with monster genocide when if there's one thing from the beginning of the show concerning hunting that hadn't changed much for Sam before now that was it, i.e. that all monsters weren't necessarily bad... but now I'm supposed to believe that he's okay with exterminating all monsters? Okay, sure show, whatever... Of course Sam and Dean are different individuals, but for me in the big things - their life philosophies and what they want to do with their lives - those things are fairly similar. Or at least they were until very recently - at the end of season 10 Sam made it very clear that hunting is what he wanted to do, and that he didn't see himself doing that without Dean, and nothing I saw in season 11 would lead me to believe Sam had changed his mind about that. This new "rift" in my opinion, is one the writers created, but not organically from how the characters are now. And truthfully, I' wasn't seeing much strife in their personal lives either. I wasn't seeing arguments in the bunker or anything like that. They were even on the same page about kicking Mary out of the bunker. And it's a big bunker. They have plenty of room to do their own things. Maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not seeing the problem except the one that the writers are currently manufacturing. And as for time apart - they've both had that at various times in their life. Either they were miserable or in the case of Sam, they were trying to convince themselves of more than was actually there. Amelia was a nice "idea" but the reality shown wasn't the epic romance that Sam thought that it was. Even Sam looking back on his college days admits that he didn't really feel like he "belonged." Not to mention that some of his life there was a lie - demons manipulating him. Now as for Dean, I don't know. He's harder for me to read, so maybe he has changed now. But for Sam, he wanted hunting with Dean: that was clear to me for seasons 10 and 11 and Sam was pretty open about that on a few occasions. That's why this new BMoL thing makes little sense to me. 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 Quote Castiel was going on a very similar "quest" for very similar reasons, which eventually lead to disastrous results, yet somehow I don't see Castiel being accused of having to be play hero and thinking he was the chosen one - even though Castiel said exactly that about his "quest." They lampshaded Cas just wanting to be a hero several times now in the show. Granted, in the "angel trials" plot the dialogue wasn`t specific for that but in the Amara story, they made it overt. So the character does get called out even in the narrative itself. Quote My opinion is so what if Sam felt that he was being purified and hoped that he could redeem himself with a heroic quest and maybe show Dean that he could handle something like that, too? Good on him. That's human, and something that I can relate to. In my opinion, it isn't as realistic to be undertaking something like that unless you think you can do it. If someone doesn't think they are good enough, why would they think they could undertake something like that? That`s why I never bought "I`m the least of you" in 5.22 from Sam. Yeah sure, but not so "least" that he didn`t have enough faith in himself to defeat Lucifer himself. With Dean, I think, he wouldn`t necessarily believe he couldn`t pull off a hero`s quest but that he isn`t good enough to be considered for one. A belief the show keeps reinforcing more than it does not. Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: In short, I think it has been made clear that the brothers are very different individuals and I further think that it has been made clear-and even as recently as in this last episode-that as long as they live together and remain in each others' back pocket, there will never be any true character growth for either one. Hunting together does not have to equal living together and/or being unable to have a loving relationship with another individual that rivals the sibling relationship in some way and/or being unable to disagree about any hunt that might come up and/or who each might want or not want to work with on a hunt I think both characters have grown in recent years, as evidenced (for the most part) by their not lying to each other anymore. The writers made Sam do it again last week, but at least they had him come clean and apologize fairly quickly. But as far as finding loving relationships outside of what they already have, I think that ship has sailed. Both brothers realize that as long as they are hunters, that's not in the cards for them. Now it's possible that this is a big reason why Sam wants to believe the BMOL, because he really does want a shot at that other life Mary talked about, but I don't see the show going there, except hopefully as a final episode of the series. Yes, I want my happy ending, dammit! Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: They lampshaded Cas just wanting to be a hero several times now in the show. Granted, in the "angel trials" plot the dialogue wasn`t specific for that but in the Amara story, they made it overt. So the character does get called out even in the narrative itself. I agree that the show does show this - which was supposed to be part of my point, since I thought that the angel trials' dialogue I was indirectly referring to was actually pretty overt also, with Castiel's "I'm the only one who can do this." I was talking about in fandom, in that I often see Sam being called out for this behavior in that finale, but generally no mention is made of Castiel doing the same thing. I should have made that more clear. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: That`s why I never bought "I`m the least of you" in 5.22 from Sam. Yeah sure, but not so "least" that he didn`t have enough faith in himself to defeat Lucifer himself. Well, of course Sam had to have enough faith in himself to believe that he could defeat Lucifer, otherwise it would've been stupid of Sam to even suggest trying his plan. Of course he ended up being wrong, in that as soon as Sam said "yes" Lucifer kicked his ass, but Sam did keep on trying - so props for that - and he was tenacious enough to keep at it until Lucifer got cocky - never should've left Sam on the surface - and was eventually at a vulnerable point (in my interpretation of events), for Sam to take advantage. And I'm fine with Sam thinking that, because otherwise all the mention of Sam's pride and hubris wouldn't make any sense. And my opinion is if a writer is going to say a character has a flaw, then at least show it, too. And I'm okay with that. I was less okay with the "you want to be more powerful than everyone" thing, because that - for me - hadn't been shown adequately. But it's never been brought up in the show again, so I'm guessing they realized it wasn't all that strong an argument themselves. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: With Dean, I think, he wouldn`t necessarily believe he couldn`t pull off a hero`s quest but that he isn`t good enough to be considered for one. A belief the show keeps reinforcing more than it does not. I'm not so sure of either of those things myself, but I'll admit that that's because I don't necessarily "get" Dean like I "get" Sam. I mean, what mental gymnastics would you have to go through to say to yourself "I know that I can do this, but yet I'm just not good enough?" Maybe if Dean wasn't a hunter who saves people on a regular basis, I might be able to buy it, but even then it's iffy for me. And as for the show reinforcing that opinion. I don't know if I agree with that one either. Dean did make good on his quest to kill Azazel. He survived 40 years in hell without going bonkers, turning into a demon, or becoming evil* whereas Sam just topside fell right off the wagon. He has an angel who looks up to him. He succeeded in convincing Death to get Sam out of hell (because apparently no one else thought Sam was worth saving), and in his mission to kill Dick Roman... and in his quest to survive purgatory and save Castiel - it wasn't Dean's fault that Castiel decided he wasn't worthy of being saved. He was able to resist the mark of Cain enough to complete his mission to kill Abbadon... which was shown as a good thing (unlike Sam killing Lilith.) The show apparently also thought Dean was worthy enough that God gave him the responsibility of taking care of the world. And Amara, God's powerful and formerly bent on destruction sister told Dean that he gave her exactly what she needed (with the "to no longer be destructive" very heavily implied). For me, I'm not sure how much more "good enough" the show needs to tell or show Dean that he is. And it's not like Sam was given a ton of encouragement along the way with everyone telling him he was tainted and likely going to turn evil... with his own father saying his brother would either have to save him or kill him... meaning John didn't think that Sam could be trusted to choose one way or the other or save himself. It was up to Dean to save or kill Sam. Gee, how inspiring for Sam that John had such confidence in him. *sarcasm* And as for the show, considering Sam's failures outnumber his successes - and it appears that he's being set up for another this season - I just don't see the supposed bolstering of the character that others do. In my opinion, it's probably a good thing Sam does have a little hubris or realistically, he should've given up on himself a long, long time ago according to the confidence the show seems to have in him. But of course, this is just all my opinion on the matter and others' opinions will obviously vary. * and I still call bullcrap on Alastair's story about John. At some point John either escaped or was let off that rack, or there was no way he was coincidentally near the hellgate when the door opened, but that's another topic. 3 Link to comment
Myrelle March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: And the differences they do have, compliment each other. This, as it regards the hunt, is about the only thing that I feel we can agree on with my one caveat to agreeing being that sometimes these differences also help to create the conflicts and angst-especially and maybe even moreso amongst the fandom than within show. I'm also just going to add that as regards the hunt and Sam-IMO, what the show has actually given us, canon-wise, is that he's still waffling on it being something that he loves as much as Dean does-and(again IMO) he definitely does not love it in the same way and for the same reasons that Dean loves it. And I know that some hate the back and forth of that as regards Sam's feelings, but the canon for it has been written to AND shown to us as w/o a doubt being something that is and has always been an on-going part of Sam's characterization from Day One of the series. Dean may have once upon a time wondered about living a normal life, but he let it go entirely after living with Lisa and Ben for that one year and we were clearly shown even within that year that the normal life would never, ever be for him, IMO. Whereas with Sam, they have continually and consistently shown us a Sam who doesn't just go back to trying for the "normal" life, but they've also shown him to be someone who consistently and actually wants to go back to it and who, again, who wants to have some semblance of "normal" in his life even if he has finally accepted hunting as his calling/what he's supposed to be doing. IMO, he does not love hunting in the same way or manner or even to the same extent that Dean does. Their satisfaction with the life is derived from far different aspects of it and most of what Dean loves about it could not or would not ever be able to fit under the umbrella of "normal", IMO-excepting the strong desire to help others, of course. While Sam could actually still fit some semblance of real "normal" into the hunting life and his feelings on it and into his ability to do the job to his utmost ability. IOW and IMO, Sam can still separate the two words Hunting and Life into two actually distinct and separate definitions/words, whereas with Dean they are one and the same thing AKA for Dean is Hunting IS Life and vice versa. Edited March 14, 2017 by Myrelle 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 Quote I'm not so sure of either of those things myself, but I'll admit that that's because I don't necessarily "get" Dean like I "get" Sam. I mean, what mental gymnastics would you have to go through to say to yourself "I know that I can do this, but yet I'm just not good enough?" Maybe if Dean wasn't a hunter who saves people on a regular basis, I might be able to buy it, but even then it's iffy for me. I think Dean doesn`t question his abilities so much as his character. When someone expresses concern over Sam doing something, IMO Sam sees it as that questioning his ability to do it. In some cases that might be true but in others, it is not. For Dean, it is more like that "you are a blunt instrument" or "you are a killer" things. So yes, he will probably have confidence in being able to fulfill the technical requirements of a certain job. But if someone or something chooses a "hero" for a quest or a task, they would look for more than technique, they`d look for a certain value in character. And in that, Dean does not feel confident about himself. Sam IMO does not have that problem. He thought the visions in Season 11 came from God because why the hell not. If Dean was the one contacted like this, he would still be super-paranoid about it. 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Myrelle said: Sam can still separate the two words Hunting and Life into two actually distinct and separate words, whereas with Dean they are one and the same thing AKA for Dean is Hunting IS Life and vice versa. I agree with this. On this particular issue I see neither brother as the 'bad guy' just different. I think while Sam has accepted his place is out on the road there is still a part of him (and probably always will be) that craves settling down into a normal life outside hunting. On the other hand, despite all its hardships, Dean likes the hunting life. Even if the opportunity became available to them I don't think he'd be truly happy in a care free apple pie life. Edited March 14, 2017 by Wayward Son Link to comment
shang yiet March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 (edited) I'm fine with Sam having mixed feelings about hunting. Why not? He doesn't have to feel the same way about hunting as Dean. I'm sure his dream isn't about dying young on the job. Regardless, this show is not about Dean and his new best buddy hunter clone who shares all his interests. The show's main draw is not healthy relationships but the brotherhood for better or worse, And what is wrong with going on a heroic quest? If Dean doesn't think he is good enough for such a quest, then it makes sense storywise for it to be Sam. Anyway, I think Dean's self-esteem is just fine, especially after the Amara victory and benediction from God himself. Edited March 14, 2017 by shang yiet 2 Link to comment
catrox14 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I'm not so sure of either of those things myself, but I'll admit that that's because I don't necessarily "get" Dean like I "get" Sam. I mean, what mental gymnastics would you have to go through to say to yourself "I know that I can do this, but yet I'm just not good enough?" Maybe if Dean wasn't a hunter who saves people on a regular basis, I might be able to buy it, but even then it's iffy for me Dean's Hell experience is the difference IMO. Dean's experience has been unlike anyone else in this universe non demon. He tortured souls in Hell. Thus far only demons have done that. He broke the first seal because he tortured souls in Hell. He said in On the Head of a Pin he wasn't strong (re good enough). Whether or not Alastair was lying is irrelevant because Dean no longer believed he was worthy of anything. Dean has never been given absolution for this. Not stopping the apocalpyse. Not saving the world from the Darkness after he took on the MoC. Quote From Wishful Thinking: Dean: The things that I saw... there aren't words. There is no forgetting. There's no making it better. Because it is right here... [ taps his head ] forever. You wouldn't understand. And I could never make you understand. So I am sorry. Quote Dean: They, uh... They sliced and carved and tore at me in ways that you... Until there was nothing left. And then, suddenly... I would be whole again... like magic... just so they could start in all over. And Alastair... at the end of every day... every one... he would come over. And he would make me an offer. To take me off the rack... if I put souls on... if I started the torturing. And every day, I told him to stick it where the sun shines. For 30 years, I told him. But then I couldn't do it anymore, Sammy. I couldn't. And I got off that rack. God help me, I got right off it, and I started ripping them apart. I lost count of how many souls. The -- the things that I did to them. Sam: Dean... Dean, look, you held out for 30 years. That's longer than anyone would have. Dean: How I feel... This... inside me... I wish I couldn't feel anything, Sammy. I wish I couldn't feel a damn thing. Quote From Family Remains. DEAN You know, I felt for those sons of bitches back there. Lifelong torture turns you into something like that. SAM You were in hell, Dean. Look, maybe you did what you did there, but you're not them. They were barely human. DEAN Yeah, you're right. I wasn't like them. I was worse. They were animals, Sam, defending territory. Me? I did it for the sheer pleasure. SAM What? DEAN I enjoyed it, Sam. They took me off the rack, and I tortured souls, and I liked it. All those years, all that pain. Finally getting to deal some out yourself. I didn't care who they put in front of me. Because that pain I felt, it just slipped away. No matter how many people I save, I can't change that. I can't fill this hole. Not ever. ...But he does the best he can to make the world a better place. "Saving people. Hunting things. We make the world a better place. I know we do". That doesn't mean that Dean thinks HE inside is a good person. Nor that he will ever be able to atone for what he did in Hell. He didn't become a demon because he wasn't there long enough to be fully on that path. That's all a matter of how long it takes for someone's soul to be burned away. Some it might be one day and others it might be 200 years. He was saved by Cas before that happened. I know the common wisdom is DEAN DIDN'T LOSE HIS MIND after Hell so how bad can it have been OR He's SUPER!DEAN but I disagree with that reading. People can live for years with trauma before it starts affecting them. They self medicate (hello Dean's drinking). They may bury it for decades until something happens and they can know longer bury the pain. IF this show gave a shit about Dean's Hell experience in a real way, they could revisit it but I don't think they will. It seems to me though, that Hell is still a thing in Dean's mind because of that hesitation and internal fear of Hell that Jensen played before descending back into Hell. If it's still a factor even for a moment for Dean then IMO he'll forever think he's 80% crap. YMMV 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 14, 2017 Share March 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, Myrelle said: Their satisfaction with the life is derived from far different aspects of it and most of what Dean loves about it could not or would not ever be able to fit under the umbrella of "normal" , IMO-excepting the strong desire to help others, of course. While Sam could actually still fit some semblance of real "normal" into his feelings about the hunting life and into his ability to do the job to his utmost ability. 4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: I think while Sam has accepted his place is out on the road there is still a part of him (and probably always will be) that craves settling down into a normal life outside hunting. On the other hand, despite all its hardships, Dean likes the hunting life. Even if the opportunity became available to them I don't think he'd be truly happy in a care free apple pie life. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I think that there's an argument to be made for either one to be "happy" not hunting or for either one to need hunting. I think it's been shown more than once that Dean is very adaptive. He seemed perfectly happy as a P.A. in "Hollywood Babylon" and fit himself right in whereas Sam was doing the hunting job, but seemed to feel out of place in that environment. He didn't "fit in" with everyone else. And that theme has been touched on other times throughout the series - Sam's feeling of being different and not quite fitting in with "normal." I do agree with you, Myrelle, about Amelia, but for me - and I realize I'm in the minority on this one - I didn't think it was actually in character for Sam at that time - except in the context of it being an escape, but maybe not something long term. When Sam left Amelia, he didn't go somewhere else usual to start a new normal life... he went to Rufus' cabin, something associated with hunting. maybe because he wanted to feel grounded again, I don't know, since the show didn't really bother to look into that. For me, Sam's desire for "normal" took a huge hit in "Afterschool Special." He realized that his attempt at normal didn't make him happy after all. And later he pretty much embraced his "weirdness." This was re-enforced for me in "It's a Terrible Life" where Sam was just as drawn to the hunting life as Dean was, declaring it awesome and something they were supposed to be - a recurring theme with Sam. By "Swap Meat," Sam was actually contemptuous of the "apple pie life:" Quote Sam: Yeah, I know. I'm telling you, kid – I wish I had your life. Gary: You do? Thanks. Sam: Get out of here. Dean: That was a nice thing to say. Sam (scoffing): I totally lied. That kid's life sucked ass... All that apple-pie, family crap? It's stressful. Trust me – we didn't miss a damn thing. Dean: Or we don't know what we're missing. Even after his stint in hell, Sam confirms this attitude again in "The French Mistake." Quote Dean: You know that if we drop Virgil, get the key, then this might be it. We might be stuck here. Sam: No, we'll figure out a way back. Dean Yeah, you wouldn't be that broken up if we didn't, though. Sam: What? Don't be stupid. Dean: Well, I'm just saying. No hell below us, above us only sky. Sam: Dean, our friends are back there. Dean: Yeah, but here, you got a pretty good life. I mean, back home, the hits have been coming since you were 6 months old. You got to admit, being a-a bazillionare, married to Ruby, the whole package. It's no contest. Sam: No, you know, you were right. We just don't mean the same thing here. I mean, we're not even brothers here, man. An argument could be made here, I think, that Sam almost needs the feeling of meaning something and of making a difference* that hunting can provide. And Sam reiterates that idea of them making a difference to Dean throughout season 7. And I'm not sure what you mean by "and most of what Dean loves about it could not or would not ever be able to fit under the umbrella of 'normal'" unless you mean the smashing heads, killing aspect, in which case, I disagree, because I don't think that Dean is simply a killer nor does he need that to be happy. I think that Dean would miss hunting a great deal, but I think he could also live without it - and he did so rather well for a year with Lisa and Ben... and he even returned to Lisa and Ben, leaving (soulless)Sam to hunt on his own with every intention of staying until soulless Sam dragged him back into the life. But that is just my opinion on the matter based on what I see as Dean's adaptive personality. Now soulless Sam... he had to hunt. It was his only purpose for being. But I don't see Dean like that. And as for weird, how "normal" is it that Sam considers his brother's car as a comforting embodiment of "home." The boy is not "normal" ; ). (And I mean that in the sense that he's a little off in the brain.) Basically I'm saying that an argument could be made for either of them to either need hunting or to be able to handle or want normal, depending on which aspect of their personalities you focus on. * A hold over I would argue from Sam's being considered tainted days and his desire to do something good and overcome his "dark" side and prove that he can beat it. 2 Link to comment
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