“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

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Worse Bobby even told Dean when Dean expressed concern about Sam's obviously sketchy actions (paraphrase) "Well, maybe this is just Sam now" complete with shrug in his voice. Wow, so maybe Sam is just a ruthless, coldly practical killer who let Dean get turned into a vampire. 

And when Dean said it gave him the creeps, Bobby was like "who cares, Sam is your job so shut up and do it". I could just feel the love. Just like "you`re not a real person."  

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I have studied that dialogue from "Fallen Idols" a lot, and I've never quite understood where the assertion came from that Sam called Dean "bossy." Sam never did at any point in that conversation. Sam actually admitted some hard truths about himself in that speech. He told Dean that he went with Ruby, because Ruby made him feel strong, and not like the little brother.

He said he went with Ruby to get away from Dean. Like, wow, even when Dean was in hell? That is some impressive smothering Dean managed to do, even from the torture rack. And yes, I know that Sam said "it`s my fault" but he immediately followed it up with a "but..." So just like the speech in Sacrifice, to me the dialogue was more like "it`s my fault...but it`s really yours."  

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Because in this instance Dean was wrong, and Dean pointing out that he was right about those other things would've just muddied the entire point(s) of this episode. 

Dean never gets arguments to defend himself with. If he gets to say anything at all in such scenes, it`s strawman stuff, really easy to shoot down.

The construct of the whole episode was "Dean is so horrible and controlling, Sam must fight back against this tyranny and put him in his place". So of course in the end Dean had to sheepishly apologize and promise to change. And thus every legitimate issue he had previously was swallowed down the drain.

Just like they did with the Mary-apology in the last ep. He gets to air some legitimate grievances. And then has to apologize for shit he never even said or implied, Important thing, he was put in his place again. No change, from Season 5 to Season 12. Remarkable. And sad. 

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For me, the season 5 finale was about Sam making amends for what he did, and I didn't mind that Dean wasn't a huge part of that. 

And since for me the narrative shifted the true blame almost wholesale on Dean, you might understand that I hated that - in my eyes - he didn`t get ANY part of the redemption. Just again put in his little inconsequential sidekick place. A role I hate with a passion. 

[FlickChick]

Going back to the discussion about what are they going to do about Dean going forward, I think they may be setting up a reason to see very little of him in the short run. I believe that Jensen was on paternity leave for six weeks, some of which was holiday time, but not all. If that is the case, then we can't blame the writers. BUT, remember that Dabb wrote that wonderful episode "Bloodlines", so in my mind, he much prefers focusing on a group such as the BMoL and their toys to the humdrum Winchesters. The manner in which Mother Mary has been portrayed plays right into that thinking - that she would abandon her own sons to work with the BMoL and try to bring them into "the new way/correct way of thinking". And if Sam is not playing a long game, then I have lost all respect for his intuition and intelligence.

Unfortunately, I agree with much of what has been said here regarding the writers' treatment of their so-called lead, Dean. And I wouldn't be surprised if it gets even worse going forward with Dabb in charge. I can't even describe how sad that makes me feel. :(

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Going back to the discussion about what are they going to do about Dean going forward, I think they may be setting up a reason to see very little of him in the short run. I believe that Jensen was on paternity leave for six weeks, some of which was holiday time, but not all. If that is the case, then we can't blame the writers.

The episode that his extra week of time effected was the one aired last Thursday.

[FlickChick]

I was under the assumption that he didn't return as soon as others after the holiday break. As I recall Jared was teasing him about being in warm Austin while he was freezing in Vancouver in January. But if you are correct, then having Sam joining the BMoL makes even less sense to me.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I was under the assumption that he didn't return as soon as others after the holiday break. As I recall Jared was teasing him about being in warm Austin while he was freezing in Vancouver in January. But if you are correct, then having Sam joining the BMoL makes even less sense to me.

I'm pretty sure the teasing was during the filming of The Raid. The picture Jared tweeted had snow in the background and looked like the location of the BMoL base. I'm guessing they were shooting the scene of Sam coming to meet Mary that day.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I have studied that dialogue from "Fallen Idols" a lot, and I've never quite understood where the assertion came from that Sam called Dean "bossy." Sam never did at any point in that conversation. Sam actually admitted some hard truths about himself in that speech. He told Dean that he went with Ruby, because Ruby made him feel strong, and not like the little brothe

 

For me the perception comes from Jared's performance more than the dialogue.

I always thought he played it as Sam being really defensive and slightly manipulative yet saying to Dean it wasn't his fault yet saying if he had just let him grow up he wouldn't have gone off with Ruby. So for me that is Sam putting the responsibility onto Dean for him going off with Ruby.

Dean is a buffoon and throughout the episode which IMO was written to support the notion that Dean was kind of a bully to Sam which is why Sam went off with Ruby in the first place.

Ugh I hate that episode so very very much. It's horribly written and yes poorly acted by both Jared and Jensen. That should have never seen the light of day.

[FlickChick]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm pretty sure the teasing was during the filming of The Raid. The picture Jared tweeted had snow in the background and looked like the location of the BMoL base. I'm guessing they were shooting the scene of Sam coming to meet Mary that day.

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

I really don't know what happened there, TBH, I think it was just a guffaw. It could be there was a deleted scene that explains Dean's absence? Or it could be something was scripted they ran out of time to shoot and figured the plot stayed in tact and it wouldn't be worth the extra money to pick that scene up? Or it could just simply be an inexperienced writer not keeping track of his characters? It could also be that Jensen asked for some last-minute time off?

There's really so many factors that I hesitate to say it was a deliberate slight to Dean.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

I'm not entirely convinced that all of Dean's being kind of absent this season is because of Jensen's twins. The babies didn't come until December.  American Nightmare was written probably in the summer given it aired 4th in the season. Maybe Jensen needed extra time off for some reason but it's shitty writing that takes the co-lead off screen for almost 20 minutes without adequate explanation.

[FlickChick]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not entirely convinced that all of Dean's being kind of absent this season is because of Jensen's twins. The babies didn't come until December.  American Nightmare was written probably in the summer given it aired 4th in the season. Maybe Jensen needed extra time off for some reason but it's shitty writing that takes the co-lead off screen for almost 20 minutes without adequate explanation.

Well we know that Dabb never promised the Dean fans a rose garden. *sorry for the sarcasm*. I really am beginning to wonder what's going on. :(

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Well we know that Dabb never promised the Dean fans a rose garden. *sorry for the sarcasm*. I really am beginning to wonder what's going on. :(

Dabb confounds me when it comes to Dean.

 

I'll highlight the episodes that I think are good Dean episodes.
 

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4.06 Yellow Fever with Daniel Loflin

4.13 After School Special with Daniel Loflin

4.19 Jump the Shark with Daniel Loflin

5.06 I Believe the Children Are Our Future with Daniel Loflin

5.11 Sam, Interrupted with Daniel Loflin

5.16 Dark Side of the Moon with Daniel Loflin

5.19 Hammer of the Gods with Daniel Loflin

6.04 Weekend at Bobby's with Daniel Loflin

6.07 Family Matters with Daniel Loflin

6.13 Unforgiven with Daniel Loflin

6.18 Frontierland with Daniel Loflin and Jackson Stewart (story)

7.03 The Girl Next Door with Daniel Loflin

7.08 Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! with Daniel Loflin

7.14 Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie with Daniel Loflin

7.22 There Will Be Blood with Daniel Loflin

8.02 What's Up, Tiger Mommy? with Daniel Loflin

8.08 Hunteri Heroici -

8.14 Trial and Error

8.22 Clip Show

9.02 Devil May Care

9.10 Road Trip

9.20 Bloodlines

9.22 Stairway to Heaven *

10.02 Reichenbach

10.09 The Things We Left Behind

10.17 Inside Man

10.22 The Prisoner

11.02 Form and Void

11.10 The Devil in the Details

11.15 Beyond the Mat with John Bring

11.17 Red Meat with Robert Berens

11.23 Alpha and Omega *

12.01 Keep Calm and Carry On

 

Like he's written some incredibly strong Dean episodes like The Prisoner and Riechenbach which were badass/crazy Dean or he writes him in comical episodes like Yellow Fever which IMO Jensen makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear and gives Dean a lot more nuance than IMO the writing necessarily provides  I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb. I dunno. Then there are episodes like After School Special in which I have no idea who that guy with Dean Winchester's name was. 

I feel like all the ones I've highlighted that Dean acted like Dean, had something interesting to do, was a badass, emotional resonance in the episode or at minimum something active to do.

In s10, he seemed to like writing crazy!Dean

*Alpha and Omega - mixed feelings on this one.

[mertensia]

7 hours ago, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

My own guess would be inexperienced writer or deleted scene, not "let's fuck over Dean's fans".  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, mertensia said:

My own guess would be inexperienced writer or deleted scene, not "let's fuck over Dean's fans".  

I don't think it's about fucking over Dean fans. I'm beginning to think that Dabb et al, just don't have a story to tell for Dean currently. Not as a slight on Jensen but I think this season Dabb is all about Mary and the BMoL.  I'm putting it out there now that I think the spinoff will be MoL with Mary joining them full time.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean never gets arguments to defend himself with. If he gets to say anything at all in such scenes, it`s strawman stuff, really easy to shoot down.

This is no different than how Sam gets treated though, in my opinion. All season 5 (and beyond,) Sam got: the apocalypse is your fault, because of you and your bad choices, sometimes by people (like Cas) who made similar bad choices. But Sam wasn't allowed to point that out. He couldn't argue that it was Dean who made the deal (bad choice) and therefore broke the first seal. He had to take hits like (paraphrase, but close) "Oh, you're having trust issues with a demon? Better late than never" from Dean and just say "thanks for your continued support" rather than bring up Dean's making a deal with a demon. Sam wasn't able to defend himself that Dean trusted the angels - who were equally at fault for starting the apocalypse - either whenever his trusting / listening to Ruby was brought up even though in my opinion, that would have been an equally valid point.

So while what you are saying sometimes does happen with Dean, Dean is generally validated in the end anyway in some very obvious way. The show is much more likely to have Sam end up backing down on his arguments and "see the light" of Dean's way, for example. Sam's opinions on John, his leaving home and going to school, hunting... all started out differently and now have all evolved over to Dean's way of thinking. Even saving each other no matter what - the Gadreel incident - by the end of the season, Sam's "no I wouldn't" was thrown out the window and he was made to "see the light" and go over to Dean's way of thinking, entirely invalidating his previous argument - which wasn't even allowed to be a valid defense of his (Sam's) position anyway, but instead made to be an attack that was easily seen to be untrue and was given to garner sympathy for Dean and Dean's side (otherwise what Sam said would have been true and sympathetic and Sam would've stuck to his principals at the end of the season, neither of which happened.)

So I disagree that Dean never gets to defend himself. And he gives just as good as he gets - a good example being the end of "Dark Side of the Moon" where Sam didn't get to defend himself against Dean's "since you don't see family the same way I do, you don't care about me" argument. And not only that, Dean generally gets to have Sam going over to his way of thinking rather than the other way around. Looking from the beginning of the series, Sam has compromised in terms of the way he lives his life much more than Dean has, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And when Dean said it gave him the creeps, Bobby was like "who cares, Sam is your job so shut up and do it".

I truthfully tried to find this conversation to see what you were talking about, but couldn't. (Sorry about that). I saw an exchange where Bobby said that Sam was Dean's "case" (as in a case to be solved) after he agreed with Dean finally that something was wrong with Sam and was going to look into it, but it wasn't like he meant that Sam was Dean's job, just that Dean had to solve what was wrong with Sam before killing him (as Dean was hinting at). Bobby was saying (paraphrase) "well, we have to figure out what's wrong with him and/or what he is and how to put him down before we do. I'll look on my end, until then he's your case" rather than the other case Dean was talking about. Dean had said that he didn't want to get into a car with him, never mind work a case with him. And Bobby did care, because he was going to research for Dean what "Sam" was and how to kill him for him. The somewhat matter of fact conversation was actually more a comment on how Bobby thought about Sam - oh well, guess he's just a case now - than Dean, in my opinion, but miles vary.

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Can you think of any where he wasn`t "enhanced", just human? I think Live Free comes closests because it portrayed his actions in a positive light but he wasn`t quite human. I enjoy his badassery in First Born and King of the Damned very much but he wasn`t Super!Saviour of people in those.

I don`t think there are really that many episodes where Dean saves the day. Last Season the standalones were pretty awful in that regard and this Season is not really that much better. I`m feeling like the start of Season 6 right now where "rusty" Dean had to be saved for like 10 episodes in a row.

(I meant to answer this earlier since you asked. Sorry about that.)

I agree that Dean wasn't saving everyone in "First Born" but he was badass. As for Dean saving the day, when Demented Daisy did the statistics, it came out fairly even on who did the saving with Dean coming out slightly ahead. Dean came out a bit ahead on bad guy kills and Sam came out ahead a bit on planning stuff.

As for non-enhanced Dean, I thought he was pretty badass in "Hollywood Babylon" and "Jus In Bello." He was pretty great in "Sam, Interrupted" too, working through his insanity to still save the day and get the monster and save the patients (and Sam). "Point of No Return" (killing Zachariah). And "Frontierland" and "Mommy Dearest"  I think count. Dean killed the Phoenix and then kicked a bunch of Jefferson Starship butt if I remember correctly, and then took out Eve with his plan. And then there was all his purgatory fights, but I don't know if that qualifies as "enhanced" or not. If it was just Dean in purgatory as Dean - because I'm not sure whether it was actually stated whether he was alive or dead - then that's a whole lot of badass non-enhanced, superman Dean, in my opinion. Even if he wasn't saving a bunch of people, he was still trying to save Castiel which is loyal and heroic in my book. "Blood Brother" might also count, but I don't remember for sure and I don't rewatch season 8 except for maybe "Everybody Hates Hitler" and "The Great Escapist." Maybe "99 Problems," counts too. Demon hunting and killing the Whore of Babylon.

As for last year (also non-enhanced Dean), I thought that "Baby" was a pretty badass episode for Dean. Also "The Chitters" since Dean kicked some serious monster "bug" butt in that one. "Safe House" was also good. It was a team effort kill, but Dean took the difficult part (inside the "nest"). Even though Dean didn't technically get the kill in "Love Hurts," his ingenuity did save the Person in Peril at potential cost to himself, so it was very heroic. And he did survive the fight with the monster long enough for Sam to get an assist from the PiP and finally stab the monster heart (took him long enough, geesh - and complete with being stuck in a little chair again and getting strangled - hee - at least he didn't get conked on the head).

So I found you a few non-enhanced kick-ass Dean eps, maybe?

And in terms of rusty, I understand the frustration*, because Sam's season 8 and 9 stretch was at least as bad. I think Sam killed monsters in maybe 4 or 5 episodes those entire two seasons. Usually he was being saved by Charlie, Henry, Chrissy, Dean, Gadreel, Jody, Garth's wife, etc. The Henry episode was especially embarrassing with Sam meekly allowing himself to be exchanged by his captures without even objecting that he shouldn't be exchanged for something that might be dangerous. Maybe it's just me, but I thought that was pretty bad as far as damseling goes.

* Though there was "Live Free..." and "Clap Your Hands..." in the first 10 episodes of season 6. The second one might be iffy, but Dean did kill Tinkerbell and fight his way out of the Faerie realm. Dean and Sam also tag-team killed Veritas in "You Can't Handle the Truth" and Dean was able to handily beat up soulless Sam also, so maybe not entirely rusty in the beginning of season 6.

[Aeryn13]

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So I found you a few non-enhanced kick-ass Dean eps, maybe?

Sorry, I meant episodes that would be quite literally comparable to the werewolves one last Season where near death Sam still fights off the wolves and even rescues Dean at the end. Or this last one where Sam basically single-handedly saves the BMOL complext for a vamp attack. Both completely human Sam.

I meant such an episode for Dean where the focus of the entire episode is how he does superhuman fights and pretty much single-handedly saves people in the process. Not just a scene he gets or something like that but pretty much a 1:1 episode like that for him. It doesn`t have to have the same story but the same scope and presentation. 

That`s why I said Live Free comes closest in him taking out a vamp nest and fighting off his bloodlust the whole time. But it`s not quite there yet.

@catrox

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 I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb.

This is what I have come to believe now.

And it`s interesting that you listed Road Trip because it was one where I absolutely thought "wow, could you make it more obvious that you have no story for Dean and just randomely insert him in the ep for contractual obligations". I was livid with that one.

[shang yiet]

Still waiting for Sam's version of In My Time of Dying or What is and What should Be where the focus is strictly on exploring Sam's feelings about family, future, hunting, dying, etc.  I want more episodes where Sam's feelings are at the forefront, not Dean's.
Always it is Dean making the mission statement, making the big speech, giving the 'approval' to a scheme. If he doesn't, I know Sam will end up on the wrong side or failing again. Always Dean is the one who is more affected by this and that.

By all means, both Winchesters should be badass in every single episode. I am way tired of Sam being tied to a chair and needing to be rescued by Dean. That's how he earned his Samsel nickname.

Edited March 5, 2017 by shang yiet

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sorry, I meant episodes that would be quite literally comparable to the werewolves one last Season where near death Sam still fights off the wolves and even rescues Dean at the end. Or this last one where Sam basically single-handedly saves the BMOL complext for a vamp attack. Both completely human Sam.

I meant such an episode for Dean where the focus of the entire episode is how he does superhuman fights and pretty much single-handedly saves people in the process. Not just a scene he gets or something like that but pretty much a 1:1 episode like that for him. It doesn`t have to have the same story but the same scope and presentation. 

That`s why I said Live Free comes closest in him taking out a vamp nest and fighting off his bloodlust the whole time. But it`s not quite there yet.

I haven't had a rewatch yet, but I'm pretty sure that Sam didn't single-handedly save the BMoL complex as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure that Sam wouldn't have survived the episode unless Mary hadn't saved his bacon near the beginning of the attack. That vampire Mary saved Sam from would have killed or severely wounded him. Mary also then helped Sam throughout the fight. To me that's not exactly comparable to Dean - without help and while basically starving - resisting his blood urges and taking out a huge vampire nest singlehandedly, including the head vampire and saving all of the victims. I agree that "Red Meat" is most comparable to that, and I think the sheer number of vampires Dean took out, the people he saved, and his emotional fortitude compensate for him being not quite human, for me anyway.

As for something comparable to "Red Meat," I think "Regarding Dean" was comparable, where a memory challenged, potentially dying Dean still managed to kill the powerful witches and save Sam and Rowena. And where Sam was again tied to a chair, and in this case not only about to be killed, but soul potentially sent to hell in exchange for the witch's soul. And I'm pretty sure Dean killed all of the big bads there, including the witch in the beginning. There wasn't a lot of superhuman fighting in that one in the end, but there was the fight in the beginning. There was one other person I'm not sure was a witch? Or that Sam knocked out? (It didn't look like Sam killed him.) I'm not exactly sure about that one, but whoever that was, he wasn't a big player, and was just a person/witch? on the periphery. Dean got all of the big players there. And I loved that episode, despite incompetent, Samsel in distress Sam. (I gave Sam a really worried about Dean exception for his incompetence).

And I still contend that "Baby" also counts. Dean managed to win that one by himself - using both smarts and fighting skill to kill the main monster and save the woman and all of the others who the head monster had turned - despite being pretty beat up in a very brutal fight with the monsters. Dean even saved Sam, because Sam was walking into a trap, and if Dean hadn't killed the head ghoulpire, changing all of the others back, Sam would've been turned into one - it was the head ghoulpire's plan to make Sam one of his "soldiers." And I'm pretty sure that Sam was all beat up at the end - meaning that the monsters pretty much had him - and since no one was dead (and all turned back), that meant Sam had either lost or was losing (if he hadn't been turned into a monster already).

And the presentation on both were pretty Dean focused, especially "Baby."

So "Baby" and "Regarding Dean."

[Aeryn13]

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Or take for example the Season Opener, Sam was the one captured and tortured but they still made him come off like a major badass. Dean was the one roaming free and got put down easily by Mom in nightgown. So, it`s really not even about the circumstances but the visual oomph.

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

No idea if anyone but me understood this jumbled ice cream metaphor.  :)  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Or take for example the Season Opener, Sam was the one captured and tortured but they still made him come off like a major badass. Dean was the one roaming free and got put down easily by Mom in nightgown. So, it`s really not even about the circumstances but the visual oomph.

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

No idea if anyone but me understood this jumbled ice cream metaphor.  :)  

I get what you're saying. In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present....and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

Edited March 5, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

his is what I have come to believe now.

And it`s interesting that you listed Road Trip because it was one where I absolutely thought "wow, could you make it more obvious that you have no story for Dean and just randomely insert him in the ep for contractual obligations". I was livid with that one.

Interesting. I never really thought Dean was particularly absent from that episode.

There were story reasons he had to be there. He had to order Cas to remove Sam's anti-possession tattoo. Cas wouldn't have done it otherwise.

I thought Jensen did some great work with Dean's growing awareness of just how much he fucked up now that he's having to resort to Crowley digging into Sam's brain and then having to let Crowley into to help Sam get rid of Gadreel. I thought it worked for Dean stuff myself. It setup his overwhelming guilt and shame that sent him off on his own to with the  misguided mission to kill Abaddon via the First Blade.

[Aeryn13]

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In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present

Oh, I didn`t actually mean story-wise. Because I was greatly chagrined that Dean didn`t really get a big mytharc role in those earlier Seasons. In fact, if Season 3 had played out like planned: Powers!Sam saving Dean from hell, I would have stopped watching. When Ruby in early Season 3 told Sam "it`s all about you", I wanted to throw the TV out the window. 

Only Dean actually going to hell and supposedly getting a storyline from his rescue and the angel stuff renewed my interest. That`s why I loved Season 4.

What the first two Seasons did well for me was giving Dean time to really shine in the MOTW in exchange for fading into the background in the myth episodes which was Sam`s story.

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and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

Sorry.     

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I get what you're saying. In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present....and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Only Dean actually going to hell and supposedly getting a storyline from his rescue and the angel stuff renewed my interest. That`s why I loved Season 4.

Season 4 is the one that's hardest to rewatch in its entirety for me. It started great with Dean getting back from Hell and Castiel's intro but there was so much discord between the brothers that it was aggravating to watch.

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

I don't like keeping score. I'm looking at it from a point of view that both brothers had interesting storylines and there wasn't much conflict to damage their bond. In regards to Azazel it didn't matter who killed him because his actions screwed the entire family; all that mattered was that someone did.

[Aeryn13]

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 It started great with Dean getting back from Hell and Castiel's intro but there was so much discord between the brothers that it was aggravating to watch.

I didn`t actually mind that because I thought if things were going soooo bad, it would have an incredible pay-off in Season 5. Like darkest before dawn and all. Unfortunately, I consider it anti-pay-off. So to me Season 5 is really the one that screwed it up.

[AwesomO4000]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb. I dunno.

I don't know either, but after Loflin's solo episodes, I'm pretty sure that I dislike his writing for Sam when he's not writing with Dabb. Because for me "Citizen Fang" was awful when it came to Sam's characterization and is probably one of my most hated episodes of the entire series. And his other episode "Remember the Titans" pretty much took huge liberties with a few of the Greek (or was it Roman?) Gods.

For me Loflin's "better" writing for Dean* wasn't worth the character assassination of Sam.  And both of those solo episodes seemed to have a very soap opera plot feel to them with betrayals and angsty relationships and such.

* Though I'm not so sure Dean came out looking entirely great in "Citizen Fang" either. Certainly much better than Sam though - I so hate what Loflin did to Sam in that episode.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Then I think "Baby" applies. It has all of those things you mentioned: bloody, beat up Dean fighting and beating the monsters single-handedly, saving all of the victims and saving Sam, too. And those fight scenes were definitely not subtle: they were exactly brutal, in your face awesome with blood and gore galore. And they were, in my opinion at least,  likely some of the most brutal, in your face, awesome fight scenes we've seen in the show's later seasons or maybe the series as a whole.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

I don't quite see the discrepancy that you do as to the amount of ice cream, but to use your metaphor to describe my problem as someone who really likes Sam... I feel like I'm sitting at that table, looking at my banana split coming my way, thinking "oh, that looks good," but before the banana split reaches the table, the waitress says "oops wait a minute, we forgot something," and pours Tabasco sauce all over the entire banana split. Sure, I got a banana split, but I don't really want it anymore, because for me, it's now almost inedible. In that case, I'd rather have the few spoonfuls of ice cream that I can at least enjoy.

The Tabasco sauce in this metaphor = things like the speech from "The Purge," The Darkness being raised, and now Sam appearing to be all in with joining the BMoL. I don't include season 8 in there, because that was a turd sandwich from the very start for me, and putting a scoop of ice cream on that later didn't really change the fact that it was still a turd sandwich.

I guess the equivalent for some Dean fans might be season 8 where it appeared Dean fans started out with a big banana split to Sam fans' tiny spoonfuls (which were really, really small the start of that season), but then "Trial and Error" dumped Tabasco sauce all over your banana split before giving it to you.

So I guess for me, sometimes the banana split isn't so great either.

Edited March 5, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t actually mind that because I thought if things were going soooo bad, it would have an incredible pay-off in Season 5. Like darkest before dawn and all. Unfortunately, I consider it anti-pay-off. So to me Season 5 is really the one that screwed it up.

And there was no payoff at the end of the season which makes it hard to rewatch for me. I didn't like the Dean is weak, Sam is stronger moments, I hated Alastair with a passion, I wasn't a fan of Ruby 2.0, the boo hoo speech from Bobby, the knock down drag out fight between the brothers, etc. I could go on but I'm sure you get the gist.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I didn't like the Dean is weak, Sam is stronger moments, I hated Alastair with a passion, I wasn't a fan of Ruby 2.0, the boo hoo speech from Bobby

Of course I detest any "Dean is weak" thing - which seems to be a really big kink for Dabb and Berens  - but that`s where I really thought the great pay-off would make it worth it. Not so much.

Alistair was an interesting character to me. I would have prefered Dean somehow getting to kill him to get closure.

Ruby 2.0, yes, I agree with you there. Not a fan of the writing or the acting on this one.

The boohoo speech, I fully agree. I hated that. Like I said, Bobby was dead to me after that.

And I HATED both Yellow Fever - not my humour at all - and Afterschool Special.  

In general, I think the first half of Season 4 was so much stronger than the second half but I felt it had the best pacing the show ever had in terms of an ongoing story. The seals plot really lend itself to both mytharc and standalones eps. Which kept it all connected.    

Quote

I guess the equivalent for Dean fans might be season 8 where it appeared Dean fans started out with a big banana split to Sam fans' tiny spoonfuls (which were really, really small the start of that season), but then "Trial and Error" dumped Tabasco sauce all over your banana split before giving it to you.

Well, the worst was the Season 5 Finale. Only instead of Tabasco Sauce imagine the waiter peeing on banana split in front of you and then force-feeding it to you. But Trial and Error and the second half of Season 8, yup, that definitely qualifies. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I felt it had the best pacing the show ever had in terms of an ongoing story. The seals plot really lend itself to both mytharc and standalones eps. Which kept it all connected.    

I can agree with this; there was a really good flow with the overall story line for the season. There were just so much awful stories mixed in that it was ruined for me. And Yellow Fever had it's moments but the whole Dean is a dick hence the ghost sickness just killed the intended humor for me.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

I go back and forth on this one. 

I totally see why Sam would have wanted to kill Azazel for all the reasons you list.  On the other hand, Mary's death was the reason for the vengeance. Yet, Mary's death wasn't really a motivating factor for Sam. He dropped out of hunting to go to school and wanted nothing to do with John's vengeance plan for like 3 years(ish).  He only joined up because the YED killed Jessica. If not for that, he would have stayed at school whereas Dean and John would have continued to hunt and track the YED.  Dean made hunting a priority over vengeance but he didn't walk away from it either.

I guess for me it's close to a draw but ultimately I think it was okay to go to Dean.

Edited March 5, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess for me it's close to a draw but ultimately I think it was okay to go to Dean.

I agree, and for all of the reasons you mention above. It's also why I consider the Azazel storyline as both a Sam and Dean storyline. Yes, Sam had the powers and was connected to Azazel that way, but for Dean, it was personal. As you inferred, Dean's life had been affected by the YED in some way or another from the time he was almost 5 years* old, and it pretty much informed his entire life up until then. So I was okay with Dean closing out that chapter, especially since Sam closed out the Lucifer one. I'd go so far as to say I thought it was right that Dean brought down the YED.

However, if the show had been canceled and ended instead at say the end of season 4, that would've changed my entire perspective, and I would've been very disappointed with Dean being the only one of the brothers to bring down the YED. Because that didn't happen, and Sam got his chance in season 5, I prefer that Dean was the one who brought down the YED.

* Thinking about it, the usual 4 years old doesn't fit as well. Dean is almost 4 1/2 years older than Sam, and since Sam was 6 months when the YED visited, Dean was actually closer to 5 - which actually in my mind makes his memories of his mom make more sense.

[Wayward Son]

Hey guys, I found this talk a fan had with former writer Robbie Thompson. It covers things such as the shows timeline, how writer / episode distribution is handled and their use of characters. I thought I'd post it here for anyone interested in behind the scene details. 

 

Source: http://hells-half-acre.livejournal.com/497052.html

Quote

Timelines

Robbie was well aware that officially at any given moment SPN is "somewhere between 18-22 months in the furture" - him telling me that warmed the cookies of my heart, because he took it the step further to narrow it down to months! I always just say "two years" but he had it more exact with the months and that's just awesome. He said he'd often write it as the intro to his scripts "The year is 2018..." but on the other hand, characters saying the year never came up, and when it came down to it, it was production who continued their tradition of putting the current date on any props/texts/computers etc, and then they WOULDN'T be in the future. 

Robbie said that from a fan point of view, it really does bug him that they messed up the timeline, because he's that kind of fan too - the one who likes the universes to follow a strict internal logic and time frame. From a writer's point of view though, he was kind of glad that it didn't officially matter, because it would have been a constraint on the writing, and he hates having constraints on his writing.

An example he gave was when someone added a really great line, but maybe it was a popculture reference that very much dated the episode as happening currently, rather than the future - but it's a great line... so, the decision comes down to do you want to leave it in because it's awesome? Or take it out just to preserve a timeline that doesn't REALLY matter?

He DID say that was mainly production though that put the times on things. He said that he got a bunch of tweets after one episode because Sam sent Dean a text and it was dated on Dean's birthday (I'm assuming this was LARP and the Real Girl) and a bunch of fans were asking him why Sam never wished Dean a happy birthday in the episode or why they didn't celebrate it at all. And Robbie was like "That wasn't me! That was production putting the date of when they filmed or when it aired or something like that") So, these kinds of things happen when you have a lot of chefs in the kitchen working on different aspects of the meal - someone might put a garnish on that the person who wrote the recipe might not have intended to go with the dish (analogy mine.)

The part of Timelining that really drives Robbie crazy when it comes to SPN was when they would find a hunt in a town across the country, and then in the next scene they were there. And Robbie would be like "what about all the time it took to drive there? Where is that mentioned? What happened in those days?" And that was one of his main drives for writing Baby - he wanted to show the journey, and write what he called a "sleepover" scene. (Awww, cute.) He even double-checked with Production to make sure they still had the Impala with the removable roof, because if they couldn't get that overhead sleeping shot, then Robbie felt the scene would be worthless.

Writing Assignments - How they Work

I asked Robbie about how episodes get assigned in the writer's room - because I notice that certain writers often write a lot of exposition - so, are they purposefully given the exposition episodes? Or is it just happenstance?

It's happenstance, Robbie told me. Writing assignments get handed out in a certain senority-based order on a skewed rotation. So, if Robbie's got episode 4, he knows he'll also have episode 17 or 18. There are 4 high myth points they have to hit in a season - the premiere, the mid-season finale, the "sweeps" episode, and the finale - and most of those high points are usually written by the show-runner or the most senior writers, and then they're assigned away from that according to seniority. (So, Ross-Leming.Buckner always getting the 2nd episode in the season or 3rd or 2nd to episode before a climax point is because they're the non-showrunning writers who have been there the longest).

When they give out episode assignments, there's no topics given or necessarly any "musts" - usually it's "pitch me three ideas" and then sometimes they'll have something like "we're building to this point, so include some set-up" or "we don't have Mark for this episode, so you can't use him." Or "Jensen is about to have a kid, so write Dean light in case it happens then." Or on another show, Robbie gave an example of HAVING to use actors, because they had already paid for them, so it was about pitching his idea and then figuring out where he could stick in these actors so that production got it's money's worth out of the contracts.

Robbie also talked about how sometimes you want to use actors, but you don't have access to them. Like their contracts are only for a maximum number of episodes, so you have to be sparing with which ones you use them in - or they've decided to do a play and are no longer available at all. Robbie explained that's why they had to "kill" Frank in S7. Robbie loved the character, but the actor was no longer available. They didn't show a body, both because they didn't have the actor, and also because Robbie was hopping they might be able to bring him back in the future. But, what that constraint did was allow Robbie to come up with Charlie, because they needed someone LIKE Frank who wasn't Frank. (This is also, I know, how Bobby Singer came into being, because they wanted to get Missouri back, but the actress was no longer available.) I think it's funny how in both cases the replacement character went on to being a Fandom favourite. (Depending on who you ask, anyway, I do know some people who don't like Charlie - and some people who would have preferred Missouri to Bobby back in the day.)

Anyway, I thought that was interesting, as I know a lot of fans complain about characters being killed off or episodes that don't have Castiel in them (for example)... but all that is down to contracts and availability, and not actually the showrunners or writers choice at all.

How far ahead do they write an episode?

Robbie says that Supernatural is the most efficient machine that he's ever worked on. He explained that the older a show is, the less budget they get from the network, so they have to be really strict about things. If you can use a location for two episodes back-to-back, it's best to know ahead of time so that you can film those scenes back to back too and not have to rent out the location twice. Or as we had already discussed, when you know you can only use an actor for a certain number of episodes, and they've got a busy schedule, you want to book them as soon as possible, because they might not be available last minute.

Usually, the writer's start writing the next season starting in May. He said that by now, early March, they'll already have finished or are just finishing writing the current season. By the time Baby got announced at SDCC in July, Robbie had already written it four months previously and had actually forgotten about it until they brought it up at the panel. "What? Oh yeah! Wow, that was four months ago." And then they were filming it by August. So, basically between writing an episode and filming it, it's four-five months. 

We didn't talk about re-writes or amendments, but I'm guessing any rewrites based on production issues occur in the two week prep before they start filming. So it goes...

Pitch & Writing
4 months later - 2 week prep (probably final writing changes - my guess)
4.5 months later - filming begins (8 days).
4.5-5 months - Post-production begins - (I think Jules has done some interviews with the post-production team for what the timeline is there. I know that VFK often is working on the Finale right up until it airs.)
~8 months since pitching/writing the idea - episode airs.

Robbie says it's one of the reasons he finds it really funny when he would sometimes get tweets like "Thanks for listening to my complaint last week and fixing it for this week!" As though they wrote and filmed the episodes in the 7 days between when they aired rather than 4-8 months before.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

I'm going to bitch about Bitch/Jerk.

It's not Bitch/Jerk it's Jerk/Bitch

The only time it wasn't "jerk/bitch" was in What Is and Should Never Be...which was the djinnverse and Dean side-eyed. I'm pedantic because I see it being used as an argument that Dean has always been a horrible bully to Sam from the pilot on because he called him a bitch for no reason. Yes, bitch is a gendered slur and it would be better if Dean didn't say it even if he typically uses it towards monsters and demons and not human women (which is a whole other conversation).

Dean didn't use it towards Sam out of the blue. It came after Sam called him "Jerk" in a joking way and Dean one upped him as brothers do by saying "Bitch" in a joking way.

It drives me batty when I see it flipped around! I am so pedantic and nitpicky about this. And it really bothers me that it was used in Black with Crowley and Dean (like seriously that upset me so much). LOL

From the pilot:

Quote

SAM
What I said earlier, about Mom and Dad, I'm sorry.

DEAN holds up a hand.

DEAN
No chick-flick moments.

SAM laughs and nods.

SAM
All right. Jerk.

DEAN
Bitch.

Quote

SAM: Look, whatever stupid thing you're about to do, you're not doing it alone. And that's that.

DEAN: I don't understand. Why you doing this?
SAM: Because you're still my brother.
DEAN: Bitch.
SAM: W–What are you calling me a bitch for?
DEAN: You're supposed to say 'jerk'.
SAM: What?
DEAN: Never mind.

 

Black :
 

Quote

CROWLEY: In my bed?
DEAN:What? [looks around, shrugs] Oh yeah...heh heh.
CROWLEY: Jerk.
DEAN : Bitch.

Fan Fiction:
 

Quote

DEAN : It never really worked. And, I don't need a symbol to remind me how I feel about my brother, so...

MARIE : Just take it. Jerk.

DEAN : Bitch. (He quickly realises that's not Sam he's talking to, and tries to say something, but can't find the right words. Marie doesn't seem to mind as she laughs at his awkward reaction.) Right. Ok.

Baby:
 

Quote

SAM: It's just probably nothing.

DEAN: Yeah, probably nothing.
SAM: Goodnight, jerk.
DEAN: Night, bitch.

Thanks for letting me rant. LOL

[Demented Daisy]

You forgot Hunted:

Quote

 

SAM
(quietly)
Thanks for that.
(DEAN nods)
Look, Dean, I'm gonna keep hunting. I mean, whatever is coming, I'm taking it head-on, so if you really want to watch my back, then I guess you're gonna have to stick around. 

DEAN
Bitch.

SAM
Jerk.

 

[catrox14]

Oh well would you look at that. Whoops! Thanks. I didn't remember that at all. So that is twice in the show. If we take out black,  and fan fiction and  only count the times they said it directly to each other its even.

Of course none of that changes the reason for my mini rant, because again Dean was not using it against Sam as a bullying tactic which was my beef in the first place.

[bearcatfan]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Of course none of that changes the reason for my mini rant, because again Dean was not using it against Sam as a bullying tactic which was my beef in the first place.

Of course he isn't. Brothers do this. It's a sign of affection.

[SueB]

@Wayward Son EXCELLENT find.  Good data too.  I love Robbie Thompson.  I really miss his presence.  I know he and Bobo (and yes, he nicknamed Robert Berens "Bobo") are good friends.  I had such faith in the both of them.  I hope the new kids are picking up the vibe that those two started. 

[ILoveReading]

Brought over from the spoiler thread from @SueB

Quote

is there some objective criteria (number of scenes, number of lines, number of minutes, etc...) that you rely upon to support your perspective?

Honestly, no there isn't an objective criteria.  Its just personal preference and what I personally felt what worked in an ep and what didn't. Same with promos.  There has been episodes I thought I would dislike based on a promo, and vice versa.   I can list reasons for why I like or dislike ep or what I felt worked or what didn't, and for a lot of eps most of those reasons would be very different.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me.    I used to watch The Tomorrow People.  It was about Stephen as the chosen one, but I enjoyed the show more when it focused on the relationship between John/Jedidikaih (I can never spell that).  Same with Suits.  Give me the Harvey/Jessica/Louis dynamic over the main plot of Mike/Harvey anytime.  Why- its just ultimately more interesting to me. 

Of course, "importance to plot" is always going to be subjective, for me its more about how I feel about something after it airs. I have a friend, she's not online so nothing she reads influences her. We're both big Dean fans  but there have been episodes over the series that I've liked and she hasn't.  Of course, people are going to prioritize different things because we all watch for different reasons.  I don't really have any other way to describe it. Screen times, number of lines, etc don't mean much.  I'd take five minutes of quality Dean over 42 minutes of him standing around or random shots of Dean driving the car and getting to late to actually participate in the hunt.

I knew before The Raid, mostly likely Dean wouldn't have a lot of screen time, so I was prepared for that.  I was actually enjoying the episode at first.  Dean confrontation was Mary was great, and I enjoyed Dean and Ketch's dynamic far more than I thought I would.  Then the end of the episode totally ruined it for me.  I disliked that once again Dean gets lost on the way to the crime scene (I seriously hope this is the last we see of this trope).  Then Dean apologizing ruined it.  I didn't like that once again he was the one forced to compromise.  I did come out out it thinking Ketch was more interesting, but the first scene doesn't have the impact it did because of the end.  Its just another example of Dean's feelings being invalidated. It ruined the episode.

I know most Dean fans wouldn't agree but for me, I consider The Purge a quality Dean ep.  (Don't judge me, runs and hides).  I'm not talking so much the content (because it was not a good ep for Dean in that sense) but when it was over, I immediately wanted to rewatch it because I thought it was such a quality performance from Jensen.  That episode made me so emotional.   That one was all about Jensen for me, not really Dean. (if that makes sense)

One ep, that I love that doesn't get talked about a lot is Freaks and Geeks.  It's an average ep and not really heavy toward one brother or the other, but it had every element that I love about Dean in it.  His compassion, leadership/mentor skills, instincts, and badass Dean were all on display.  Even though Krissy and company got the kill in the end, and Dean was pretty much made to just stand there, I still really liked Dean's part. 

So its not always about Dean shining. Also what bothers in one might not in another.  For example, I did not like the fence hop in American Nightmare.  The Fence was too low.  It made Dean look like a clumsy oaf.  Whereas, I wasn't a major fan of him breaking the ship but it didn't stand out as much since we got to see Dean hold his own in fights and kills Hitler.  Where as in AN, he....I'm not sure exactly what he was doing.  I guess stopping for pie. For me, it just further highlighted the fence scene.

During an episode like 12.12, Dean's character history is important to me.  So when we have an episode with multiple Michael references and its not even mentioned or even letting Dean use Michael's weapon it goes on my do not watch list.   Dean feels irrelevant regardless of what else happens because it feels like the elephant in the room.  Dean could have killed 50 demons in that ep and I would still dislike it based on the Michael stuff alone.  Sam getting the kill wouldn't have mattered if it wasn't with Michael's weapon.

TL:/DR= There are multiple reasons about why I might dislike/like an ep and it has nothing to do with screen time, or line. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I know most Dean fans wouldn't agree but for me, I consider The Purge a quality Dean ep.  (Don't judge me, runs and hides).  I'm not talking so much the content (because it was not a good ep for Dean in that sense) but when it was over, I immediately wanted to rewatch it because I thought it was such a quality performance from Jensen.  That episode made me so emotional.   That one was all about Jensen for me, not really Dean. (if that makes sense)

I feel exactly the same way about the Purge. Jensen was fantastic.

[Myrelle]

Re The Purge. It's another one of those episodes that becomes worse as time goes by for me because the writers had Sam spew all that nonsense in that speech(and even die-hard Sam fans knew that it was nonsense)but the writers treated it as if it was no big deal and never bothered to even try to refute it. Some like to say it was refuted with Sam's "I lied." at the end of that season, but that statement was in answer to Dean's assertion that he thought that Sam said he would be okay with him(Dean) dying. What about all the other stuff that Sam said in that speech? And the cherry on top?-the writers of that episode said on twitter that those were "hard truths" that needed to be said. It was at that moment that I decided that I was never again going to watch another Dean-delivered apology on this show. And I'm still glad that he never apologized for the Gadreel business or the text of doom; although they seem to be making him pay for those omissions this season, while the Purge speech, along with the Fallen Idols speech and the Sacrifice speech, remain unrefuted and unquestioned to this day. And it's tainted that episode in the same way that it's predecessors tainted those episodes for me. I was never happier to see two writers leave this show than when Carmelo and Snyder left. Unfortunately, it seems to be a showrunner problem in that these kind of things happened(and are still happening) under all the showrunners-both when Sam is/was under some kind of supernatural influence and when he's not. Those two writers just took it to new heights(or depths, to be more precise) on this show and I can't even think of that episode w/o connecting it with that still unrefuted vitriol.

[Myrelle]

Quote

It's a long term bitterness of mine that the writers handwaved the horror of Sam's experiences away with the stupid "I lied" line. Too bad Jessica Jones didn't exist then as an example of how to write this type of storyline. Now there's a show that properly explored the sheer trauma and PTSD that comes with mind control / possession and didn't indulge in victim shaming.

I've never watched Jessica Jones, but IMO, all of the SPN writers/showrunners have indulged in victim shaming over pretty much anything and everything that somehow manages to get in the way of the brothers being attached at the hip since Day One of this show-even attempted fratricide and patricide have been handwaved away numerous times as something that should be dismissed in the name of familial love trumping all and/or we have to save the world so the heck with anything else that happened between the brothers and/or OCs previously(although at least Bobby got to state his distaste for the attempted patricide when SoullessSam tried to kill him). I mean, I would have loved to see Dean's PTSD from hell and Purgatory explored more, but I guess Dean's hell time didn't rate up there as being as bad as Sam's time in hell, as we've been reminded of on the few occasions that's it's even been brought up on the show. And Dean's friendship with Benny?-bad, bad, bad Dean for making a friend who became like a brother-in-arms to him under intense and unending battle conditions for a year and while also just trying to escape Purgatory on his own because how else was he going to get out of there since Sam had decided to cut and run from hunting again, and had decided instead to set up house with a bitchy vet and a dog while never even attempting for find out if his brother was indeed dead, being that there was no body and all. A semi-apology two years later w/o even the use of the words I'm sorry from Sam tucked in there, while Dean himself hand-waved it? What a joke. Victim shaming has happened/happens to both brothers on ridiculous levels on this show. That's canon. Who's had it worse is strictly and only an opinion and completely dependent on who your favorite is at this point in the show and storyboard, IMO.

Personally, I would have never even gone to Sam to help look for the father in the Pilot. He'd apparently run so far from the life and his family that he couldn't even be bothered enough to make even one phone call to his brother-even if it was only dad that he wanted away from-which I'll never buy; but hey, it was all MEEN!Dean even with that for going back to get him and pulling him back into the life(which was outright proven to be false-he was going to be pulled back in anyway being that he was destined to be Lucifer's meatsuit) and making Sam "feel bad" for simply wanting to go to school and have a normal, safe life(while many in the fandom always and still ignore the fact that Dean apologized profusely and with long, flowery speeches for any and all of that since then, and every time since that Sam has done it again, too).

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Wayward Son]

I thought it was an interesting read! And now we have the answer to the eternal question "why do they keep giving important episodes such as the mid season finale to BuckLemming?"

And yeah @SueB I miss him too! Although at least we know the door is open for him to return if he wants to :)

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[FlickChick]

Yes, @Wayward Son, thanks for that very informative interview! As I've said many times on this site previously, I really miss Robbie Thompson - he was such a great fan of the show and it showed in his writing, IMO. Seems like he is still a fan. ;)

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, @Wayward Son, thanks for that very informative interview! As I've said many times on this site previously, I really miss Robbie Thompson - he was such a great fan of the show and it showed in his writing, IMO. Seems like he is still a fan. ;)

Agreed! You could definitely tell from his episodes he was invested in the show and it wasn't just a job for him! Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll come back sometime! 

[FlickChick]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Agreed! You could definitely tell from his episodes he was invested in the show and it wasn't just a job for him! Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll come back sometime! 

From your mouth to Guck's ears! ;)

[DeeDee79]

@Myrelle I agree with your last two posts. While I make no apologies for Dean consenting to Gadreel possessing Sam The Purge speech was horrifying. The writers basically had Sam tell Dean that everything he had ever done was motivated out of a place of selfishness and the need to not be alone. Furthermore Dean is shown not apologizing and stating that he would do it again if he had to. TPTB did what they had to in order to make him look as dickish as possible so that Sam's "hard truths" would be applauded by the fans. Fans of the show and the characters should have been saddened by the rift between the brothers not cheering on Sam shitting all over his brother. Sam's anger and disappointment could have been stated without deliberately trying to hurt Dean as much as possible with his speech. I have never seen Dean speak that way to Sam and before anyone says it the scene in The Prisoner at Charlie's grave isn't the same. Dean was afflicted with the anger and aggression from the Mark and a loved one had just been murdered; not the same kind of situation. Anyone that got any enjoyment out of that other than an appreciation of how Jensen portrayed Dean's reaction just doesn't like the character and wanted to see him hurt. My opinion; no one has to agree.

[bearcatfan]

I generally avoid The Purge so I can't remember Sam's speech to Dean. I will watch the beginning with Donna because of the outtakes of Jensen with the donuts.

However, if they had Dean tell Sam that he was sorry for Gadreel because he knows it's something that Sam would not have wanted but that Dean wasn't ready for his brother to die. I could even understand Dean saying that he couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't make the same decision if he had sounded like he didn't like that he would. It was Dean being so unapologetic that was my issue, especially as I found it OOC for something this extreme. Dean even stated in the first episode that season that he knew that Sam would never agree to be possessed. I understood why Dean did it, but never understood why he wouldn't apologize. He appeared to be remorseful when he knew how confused and upset Sam was becoming over his lost time, so the fact that he wouldn't just say "I'm sorry" never rang true. They both have made decisions that they regretted and have forgiven each other for those decisions, usually fairly quickly.

Wait, was that the "if you want to be brothers" speech? If so, I always thought if they had added something like "we need to work on that" or something that wasn't so definitive, it would have made it better. Sam was pissed, and had a right to be pissed, but the cutting off of the relationship was harsh. Even just telling Dean that he's pissed and will need time to get over it, but not saying that they were no longer brothers lessens the hurt. Dean would understand that.

[ILoveReading]

What is the the writers problem with Dean this season.  This is the 4th time this season Dean is written out in the third act and the meat of the action

[companionenvy]

I Love Reading, as someone who almost always takes the Sam side in these arguments, I agree that Dean has been sidelined a bit of late, in terms of actions scenes. I like Davy Perez as a writer so far, but he does seem like more of a Sam-fan, and I think Dean has been a less nuanced character in his episodes, and this was the weakest of the three Perez has written. 

For one thing, as catrox said in the episode thread, I don't buy that Dean wears his boxers four days in a row, or that he still gets pissy about Sam driving Baby. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

For one thing, as catrox said in the episode thread, I don't buy that Dean wears his boxers four days in a row, or that he still gets pissy about Sam driving Baby. 

Yes, this bothers me so much too! He's an f**kin adult, write him like one!

Edited March 10, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, this bothers me so much too! He's an f**kin adult, write him like one!

I don't get it

Dabb is the showrunner. He really has the final say over the episodes. I don't get it at all. It's almost like they can't figure out how to write Sam doing something active and strong without undermining Dean to make that happen. It's just shitty writing.

I dunno.

But maybe Davy Perez really sees Dean as this buffoon. Maybe the writers are writing Dean the way Jensen wants. I mean sometimes I think Jensen sees Dean as this big buffoon, but maybe he's just giving up. I dunno.