S12.E13: Family Feud

[Mick Lady]

Family Feud - When Sam and Dean look into a murder at a museum, they learn a ghost from a merchant ship that sunk in 1723 may be at the heart of the mystery

Cartrox in 3, 2,1...

[Diane]

Written by Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming and Directed by P.J. Pesce

[catrox14]

[SueB]

Is it the ghost of Richard Dawson???

[gonzosgirrl]

SueB, bwaha!

Do we wait until it has aired in Pacific time before posting?

[Mick Lady]

Go catrox! Thanks!

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

Is it the ghost of Richard Dawson???

Okay, I don't get this. Clue me in Sue!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

SueB, bwaha!

Do we wait until it has aired in Pacific time before posting?

Nope. Once it's aired on the EC comments can be made in the episode thread. And spoilers.  Browse at your own risk of being spoiled.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Okay, I don't get this. Clue me in Sue!

Back in the day, Richard Dawson was the host of the Family Feud, which is also the title of the episode.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Nope. Once it's aired on the EC comments can be made in the episode thread. And spoilers.  Browse at your own risk of being spoiled.

Awesome (as a person in Eastern time zone :)).

[Mick Lady]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Back in the day, Richard Dawson was the host of the Family Feud, which is also the title of the episode.

OMG! I knew that, never watched it, but knew that! What a brain fart! Thanks Dot!!

[gonzosgirrl]

New Supernatural drinking game: A shot every time Sam says Mary needs more time. #Samsplaining

[Res]

Well, that was completely boring. *sigh*

[catrox14]

Well, that happened.

I called Crowley having Lucifer's Nicksuit and Gavin dying.

I swear to Gods, the Horrible Duo are obsessed with rape and consent issues.  JFC Could they once write something that doesn't have consent shit? ONCE?

Theoretically erasing Gavin from this timeline shouldn't matter because he wasn't supposed to be in this timeline to begin with...which means of course it's going to bite the Winchesters in their ass.

Mary, Mary, quite contrary.   How does your garden grow? With lies and betrayal. Great

You tell her off Dean, you give her all the stinkeye. 

I didn't realize the Horrible Duo would kill two characters. Gavin I called. Mary not so much .

[rue721]

Why would Mary go to all that trouble to buy burgers and beer, schlep them to the bunker -- and then tell Sam and Dean the bad news before they eat! IIRC, nobody ate in that diner scene last week, either!

Mary really wasn't kidding when she said she wasn't into cooking. She's bad at meals altogether.

[gonzosgirrl]

Random thoughts:

Even having Mark Pellegrino back cannot justify them dragging the Lucifer story out again/still/ad nauseum.

I was happy to see Dean giving Mary 'the face', but I fear they are going to let her sway them.

Rowena is one cold hearted wench, but Mary is the more unlikeable mother at this point.

Oh, and Crowley? Castiel let the baby-mama escape, not Dean & Sam, and YOU stopped Luci from being put back in the cage. So who exactly are the morons in this scenario?

These writers. Ugh.

[Morrigan2575]

I usually love ghost stories but this was pretty boring.

A few good/things I liked. Just last week, I hoped we'd get to me the other Princes and this week, we got Daegon.

I liked that Mary finally came clean about working with the BMOL. I also liked the scene between the 3 Winchesters. I also really liked then scene where the boys called Crowley. Dean's bluff about "you owe us" and the double shrug from Dean and Sam (worth a shot) was adorable.

I liked the ending, it was powerful in a very dark waym Rowena and Crowley are toxic to each other.

I'm now convinced that this season they're moving Crowley back into a full villain role. Can't say I'm happy about that because o prefer gray characters to black hats but, it is what it is.

[auntvi]

Wow!! I really liked it. The horrible duo actually wrote a good script. Some great scenes: Crowley and Lucifer, Crowley and Rowena (diabolical!), and Mary finally comes clean with Sam & Dean. Wow!!

[MysteryGuest]

Well, that certainly seemed to be all over the place.  I get that they need to keep all of the stories moving forward, but not necessarily all at the same time.

The ghost story was ok, and at least Gavin has some resolution.  

Mary has come clean, at least a little bit.  We'll see if she's able to convince Sam and Dean.  Personally, I hope she isn't.  I want them to really be smarter than that.  We all know any alliance with them isn't going to end well, and I want the boys to know it too.

I have zero interest in Lucifer and absolutely hated how they retconned everything just so they can continue to cram his story down our throats.  I just do not care and it is the most disappointing part of this season for me.  

[catrox14]

So how long before the Nick meatsuit starts to fall apart and Lucifer seeks out Sam as his vessel?

[gonzosgirrl]

So Mary is championing the BMoL even knowing what they did to Sam & Dean. I wonder if she also knows Ketch murdered Magda and all the gov't people at not-Gitmo?

[Katy M]

I'll just be positive for now.  I wasn't loving the Crowley/Rowena lovefest, so I'm kind of glad it's over.  And, I loved the eway it ended.  I wasn't expecting it.  It made sense.  Rowena is apparently a revenge best served cold kind of girl.   

I liked Gavin.  He was nice. I'm glad he went back so WEekend at Bobby's can happenproperly now.  I always figured they would send him back eventually.  I had faith, no matter how misplaced it may have been.

I like that Mary finally came clean.

I guess that's all I've got.  But, I didn't hate the episode.  Just had a few problems with it.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So how long before the Nick meatsuit starts to fall apart and Lucifer seeks out Sam as his vessel?

I think (hope) the whole point of Crowley saying that they improved it is so that that won't happen.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I think (hope) the whole point of Crowley saying that they improved it is so that that won't happen.

Improved but not forever I wouldn't think .

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So Mary is championing the BMoL even knowing what they did to Sam & Dean. I wonder if she also knows Ketch murdered Magda and all the gov't people at not-Gitmo?

I had to laugh at Ketch saying "You're the best hunter I've ever seen". So I guess that means Mary is the best hunter in the Winchester clan now? Whatever, Mr. Ketch. 

[MysteryGuest]

I hate that even Crowley is an idiot now.  There's no reason for him to save Lucifer from the cage.  He would want him gone probably even more than Sam and Dean.  I call bullshit on that storyline.  And must every episode end with a musical interlude and oh so scary Lucifer scene??  

[Wynne88]

If it's good story-telling to make me feel emotion about a character, then the duo did good because I really really dislike Mary just now.  The way she presented the information about working with the BMOL seemed incredibly dismissive of what they did to Sam, and he looked fairly taken aback by that.  Dean on the other hand didn't seem surprised at all.  He knew she was up to something.

How exactly did Mary become 'one of the best' fighters?  

[rue721]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

And, I loved the eway it ended.  I wasn't expecting it.  It made sense.  Rowena is apparently a revenge best served cold kind of girl.   

Yeah, I really liked that ending with Crowley and Rowena.

It was a pretty devastating and awesome payoff to what seemed stupid at the time (the Oscar thing). And in a way, I find it hilarious that Rowena knows exactly how it feels to get played/betrayed by your own mother AND USED THAT to make her revenge even sweeter. Damn, you've got to admire it in a way!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I had to laugh at Ketch saying "You're the best hunter I've ever seen". So I guess that means Mary is the best hunter in the Winchester clan now? Whatever, Mr. Ketch. 

I swear Dabb just doesn't like Dean & Sam.

[G-Man]

Well this episode was good although I'm surpised Lucifer is still in chains and Crowley is on the throne since the whole demonkind absouletly love the former and would busted him out when they got the chance

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

How exactly did Mary become 'one of the best' fighters?  

 

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I swear Dabb just doesn't like Dean & Sam.

He could have just been saying that.  He is manipulating her after all.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I had to laugh at Ketch saying "You're the best hunter I've ever seen". So I guess that means Mary is the best hunter in the Winchester clan now? Whatever, Mr. Ketch. 

That pissed me off, too.  I'm tired of the show downplaying Sam and Dean's skills as hunters whenever the mood suits them.  

[Boopsahoy]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was happy to see Dean giving Mary 'the face', but I fear they are going to let her sway them.

Oh I was clapping! Although I was glad she came clean. The worst thing Mr. Ketch could say to her was that being a hunter was her real self.

I actually enjoyed the episode.  They are trying to juggle too many storylines at one time, but its ok because if you don't like one of them there are 3 others to like.  I need to rewatch without commercials and interruptions to really know how I feel. I didn't love the hand waving at how they kept the Nick meat suit but I guess if Cas and Anna can keep theirs why not Lucifer?

[catrox14]

Just now, Boopsahoy said:

guess if Cas and Anna can keep theirs why not Lucifer?

Cas was rebuilt by God twice. Anna called in a favor. This is like Crowley's Lucistein monster.  It's gonna bite him in the ass. 

[auntvi]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And must every episode end with a musical interlude and oh so scary Lucifer scene??  

I thought the Stones "Play with Fire" was perfect for the situation that Crowley created with Lucifer. He was determined to get his revenge, and now he'll reap the whirlwind. Rowena much more successfully got her best served cold revenge.

[Katy M]

Just now, auntvi said:

I thought the Stones "Play with Fire" was perfect for the situation that Crowley created with Lucifer. He was determined to get his revenge, and now he'll reap the whirlwind. Rowena much more successfully got her best served cold revenge.

Not only is Crowley playing with fire with Lucifer, but Mary is playing with fire with the BMOLS, and possibly Dagon is playing with fire with little baby Lucifer.  A very fitting song, I thought.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He could have just been saying that.  He is manipulating her after all.

They can mitigate the unfortunate implications by having Mary say something like "Well, my boys are still out there". 

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I thought the Stones "Play with Fire" was perfect for the situation that Crowley created with Lucifer. He was determined to get his revenge, and now he'll reap the whirlwind. Rowena much more successfully got her best served cold revenge.

It's a ploy they've used too much this season, that's all.  I have no issue with the song itself, but they've spent an awful lot of time this season playing songs and showing the characters staring off into space when they could actually be speaking some dialogue and helping to make sense of some of the plot(s).

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

I thought the Stones "Play with Fire" was perfect for the situation that Crowley created with Lucifer. He was determined to get his revenge, and now he'll reap the whirlwind. Rowena much more successfully got her best served cold revenge.

How the hell did they afford the Stones? No joke I thought it was a cover and it sounded like Mark Pellegrino singing. I really want to know if my ears deceived.

[Boopsahoy]

Just now, catrox14 said:

How the hell did they afford the Stones? No joke I thought it was a cover and it sounded like Mark Pellegrino singing. I really want to know if my ears deceived

I didn't even think of that-It sounded like the Stones. We need to look at the credits.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How the hell did they afford the Stones? No joke I thought it was a cover and it sounded like Mark Pellegrino singing. I really want to know if my ears deceived.

If it makes any difference, they apparently afforded it before, because I remember they also used the song in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

[auntvi]

It sounded like Mick Jagger to me. Maybe the Stones catalog isn't doing so well anymore?

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

It sounded like Mick Jagger to me. Maybe the Stones catalog isn't doing so well anymore?

It was very close to Mick Jagger but slightly different. I mean I could be totally wrong but that can't be a cheap song.

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the song info. I really liked it but, never heard it before. 

[auntvi]

Superwiki says: "Play with Fire" by The Rolling Stones (playing over the closing montage; also played in 6.22 The Man Who Knew Too Much)

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Improved but not forever I wouldn't think .

I thought I heard Crowley say in there somewhere that it was his new, permanent vessel (or some word that meant vessel). I think Crowley and his minions did something to the meatsuit to make sure that Lucifer stays in there.* As for it falling apart - for Crowley, that would be a bonus if he trapped Lucifer in a decaying meatsuit.

* Maybe he did some power up modifications to that spell he used to trap Sam's friend turned demon in his meatsuit in "The Devil You Know."

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I hate that even Crowley is an idiot now.  There's no reason for him to save Lucifer from the cage.  He would want him gone probably even more than Sam and Dean.

But if there's anything Crowley enjoys and will even work with an enemy for, it's revenge. He even went in with Dean and Sam to get revenge on Dick Roman for refusing his baby uvula muffins  and saying he'd rather swim through hot garbage than work with Crowley. I can just imagine how long Crowley's been waiting to get Lucifer back for what he did to him.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How the hell did they afford the Stones? No joke I thought it was a cover and it sounded like Mark Pellegrino singing. I really want to know if my ears deceived.

Well, they have used this song before,* (as @Katy M said above), so maybe it's cheaper when you've already used it before.

*In a scene I really liked, but it was very different than this so I don't mind the reuse. It was the scene in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" where it played on the radio at Bobby's, but Sam also heard it in his coma dream (on Baby's radio), so the song connected Sam and Dean even though Sam was in a coma.

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We'll see if she's able to convince Sam and Dean.  Personally, I hope she isn't.  I want them to really be smarter than that.  We all know any alliance with them isn't going to end well, and I want the boys to know it too.

I'm also hoping that she doesn't convince them. I don't think I was imagining that Sam's reaction in the musical montage as Mary was making her pitch was not all right with this. Like at all.

In other minutia: The ghost hands coming up from under the bed surprised me. I wasn't expecting that. And it was very creepy.

[Boopsahoy]

Quote

I thought I heard Crowley say in there somewhere that it was his new, permanent vessel (or some word that meant vessel). I think Crowley and his minions did something to the meatsuit to make sure that Lucifer stays in there.*

That's what I heard too.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

Superwiki says: "Play with Fire" by The Rolling Stones (playing over the closing montage; also played in 6.22 The Man Who Knew Too Much)

Would they still list it as Rolling Stones if someone covered it? I don't know how all that works.

2 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

That's what I heard too.

Ah, I didn't catch that.  Thanks. "permanent" until plot requires it not be permanent. Bleh I don't like that at all.
 

[bearcatfan]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So Mary is championing the BMoL even knowing what they did to Sam & Dean. I wonder if she also knows Ketch murdered Magda and all the gov't people at not-Gitmo?

I don't think she was championing them as much as deciding that she needed to come clean. Then she was trying to defend working with them. I still say that she doesn't trust them. She never said she did last week when Wally asked and she didn't say that she did this week when the boys brought that up. I don't know that they will agree to work for them but I do think they will help Mom out when she needs it, even if she is working for BMoL.

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They can mitigate the unfortunate implications by having Mary say something like "Well, my boys are still out there". 

She did give him a look of disbelief.

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In other minutia: The ghost hands coming up from under the bed surprised me. I wasn't expecting that. And it was very creepy.

That surprised me too.

[auntvi]

I think.... saying "by The Rolling Stones" means it's their copyrighted version. If someone else were performing the song, the credit would be to the songwriters.

[PandoraTHExplora]

59 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Wow!! I really liked it. The horrible duo actually wrote a good script. Some great scenes: Crowley and Lucifer, Crowley and Rowena (diabolical!), and Mary finally comes clean with Sam & Dean. Wow!!

Agreed.  I liked this episode a lot, particularly the return of Lucifer in my fave meat suit.  The way that he and Lucifer talk to each other is very fun to watch.

[companionenvy]

For a Buck-Leming episode, I liked it, but I had two objections, and they are pretty significant ones:

1. Whether or not Gavin should have been pulled from his timeline originally,  now that he's here I think he has as much right to life as anyone else. So, while I would have been fine with Gavin on his own realizing that his sacrifice was necessary, I didn't like the ease with which Sam and Dean accepted (and, in fact, proposed) that as a viable solution. Sure, in purely utilitarian terms, Gavin dying was the better outcome, but the Winchesters aren't normally in the business of asking innocents to die for the greater good. I'm also not convinced of the logic in terms of the timeline; Gavin has been a part of the twenty-first century world for a while now, so retroactively returning him to his original timeline seems likely to do as much potential harm as good. They may have restored the timeline relative to the eighteenth century, but they've just distorted the timeline relative to 2017, or whatever year it is supposed to be in the SPN-verse. It isn't as if there was ever a version of 2016 that didn't include Gavin.

Apart from any objections I had, I got the sense that this plotline might be a set-up for Mary having to die again, which will bother me to no end, since resurrecting Sam and Dean's mom only to kill her again strikes me as gratuitously cruel, given everything they've already lost. 

2. I'm glad Mary fessed up to Sam and Dean, but that conversation was terribly written. Given all of the crap that Sam and Dean have forgiven or set aside over the years, the reason to be opposed to working with the BMOL shouldn't be "Lady Toni and a few henchman tortured Sam." Mary isn't working with Lady Toni, and there is no solid evidence (that the Winchesters are privy to) against Ketch's claim that she was a rogue agent who has been disciplined for what she did. "We do OK with our methods" is an even weaker argument. If a hunter working with the BMOL can save 100 people a month, the fact that it is already pretty impressive to save 50 people a month isn't a reason to continue with present methods.

Of course, there are also very good reasons not to work with the BMOL. While Sam and Dean don't know the details of their methodology -and aren't aware that the BMOL killed Magda and the agents holding them -- they have seen enough to realize that there's a good chance Ketch and co are crossing all kinds of ethical lines. They do know that the BMOL intended to kill the agents, and they should be able to realize that the methods they've described for eliminating supernatural threats from England leave some pretty giant questions about how generously they're defining "supernatural threat." There's also the question I myself keep screaming at the writers to address: if the BMOL are as competent as they appear to be and even remotely on the side of the good, why have they apparently stood back and let several possible apocalypses happened? But Sam and Dean didn't bring up those points.

On the upside, I did love Dagon! 

[catrox14]

You know for a show that made a ghost seek vengeance for being sexually assaulted, it sure did conveniently blow right past LadyFuckOffandDie's mind rape of Sam.  These writers just need to knock this shit off if they aren't going to treat it properly.