Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[DittyDotDot]

57 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This sounds to me that you think that Dean was manipulating Mary to get her to be the mom that he wants. That's fine if that's your viewpoint of course but I didn't interpret his actions that way.

Yes, to a certain extent, I think Dean was being manipulative when he was freezing Mary out. Are you telling me that you don't think if Mary showed up at the bunker saying she realized Dean was right and she quit the Brits, Dean wouldn't have let her back in? I'm not saying he wouldn't have still been cold to her, but I think it was part-ploy to get her to bend and part-punishment for not being the mom he wanted.

Now, do I think Dean was wrong for dressing Mary down or being hurt that she was choosing their torturers over them? No, I don't think Dean was wrong at all. But, it wasn't getting Dean what he wanted, which was a relationship with his mom. So, he compromised a bit so that he could have something instead of nothing at all.

Personally, I think Mary was wrong that she used them, wrong that she lied to them and wrong that she ran away from them. But, I also think Mary was struggling and didn't understand exactly what it was Sam and Dean actually wanted from her. That was the real problem, IMO. And I think that's all Samantha Smith is trying to say. She's trying to explain it from Mary's point of view; which was, Mary was a mess.

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unfortunately, the dialogue at the end had Dean specifically remark about her not being there to tuck him in and make soup. Berens could have just had Dean say "You made your choice to work with these people. I don't like it. But it's your choice" like he did with Sam a bit later on. That "mom" at home thing was again brought up in 12.22 when Dean told Mary that it wasn't her job to clean up the bunker.  IMO, that's twice that Berens inserted that into Dean's dialogue which implies to me that Berens thinks Dean still only sees his mom as "mommy" who should be there for him. 

See, to me, having Dean say twice that it wasn't her job to clean up for them was Dean reminding Mary that he never wanted that from her. He just wanted her to want them, but Mary misunderstood what he wanted so he had to keep telling her--probably because Mary just ain't that bright.

Edited October 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Are you telling me that you don't think if Mary showed up at the bunker saying she realized Dean was right and she quit the Brits, Dean wouldn't have let her back in?

Was this question a part of the discussion? I don't recall quoting that part of your post if it was. What I'm getting from your viewpoint is Dean told Mary to leave because she wasn't the mom that he wanted or that she should have been and when she didn't come back with her tail between her legs he decided to try another tactic to get what he wanted and apologized to get her back. This negates the very real feelings of hurt and anger that he voiced during their confrontation and reduces him to a petty child IMO. Which I don't agree with. Yes, he would have let her back in because she's still his mother despite everything and he loves her but not as a "you've learned your lesson now, you may come back" sort of way which is what I'm getting from this question.

[catrox14]

IMO, Dean had come to accept that Mary was needing time to figure herself out by the time the lake house happened. Also,  Cas' near death and Sam's torture are the mitigating factors here IMO, not the lack of 'mom'. He was already disgusted with her betrayal but once she tried to justify her betrayal as "for them"/the "family" card that was when he went all in the "mom" thing. She opened the "for family" door and Dean walked through it and then slammed her behind it. He didn't do it to get her to stay. He was straight up angry with her behavior and her betrayal that got her booted.  She chose the enemy over her children, which made her claims of needing time from them to figure it out, even worse. 

IMO, that kind of manipulation is not Dean's MO. He doesn't issue idle threats. He meant it when he told Sam to leave and not come back. Bobby interceded. When he told Sam to go their  separate ways in s5, he meant it. When Sam called him to rejoin, he said no until Zachariah showed him the future and he rethought his position.  He didn't make either of those separations as manipulations. IMO with Mary he was done with her. Until he was scared that she could be harmed and then he softened his position. That is what the show should have stuck with but obviously Berens had decided that "Mommy" was the real issue for Dean even though they never sold it IMO to that point in time. JMO YMMV

Edited October 10, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

Quote

 Are you telling me that you don't think if Mary showed up at the bunker saying she realized Dean was right and she quit the Brits, Dean wouldn't have let her back in?

Sure he would have, if she was sincere, but because he was right, not because he was manipulative.

Mary had every right to time and space to deal with her return. She didn't have the right to trample her children's feelings in her quest to do it. Or at least she didn't have the right to not be judged for it. My opinion won't be swayed on that. And also in my opinion, Sam Smith's interpretations and performance are informed from the 'top' and not from any knowledge of the characters, Mary or Dean. That speaks volumes to me about the current regime's priorities and perspectives.

[catrox14]

Just another thought.

Mary had popped in with burgers and beer to try and butter them up before she tried to recruit them to the BMOL side and confess that she was working with them. Dean basically told Mary to get out of his house and that doesn't seem like a good way to get her to stick around when she had been making her own choices and not particularly caring if they talked that much the whole time either.

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I thought the myth of Mary was sufficiently debunked for Dean and possibly Sam, back in S4 In The Beginning. I actually thought current Mary was just an older not wiser version of pastMary with a sprinkling of DSotM Mary on top.

Heh. You and me both.

And it appears from this panel that it wasn't only the writing that ruined the character so thoroughly for some of us.

 

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

17 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, she pretty much said how she can`t even understand criticism or dislike of the Mary character. Because in her mind Mary is validated in everything and everyone else, in this case mainly Dean, is the problem. I mean, she wanted gratitude for that stunt with the BMOL? 

And of course she oversimplifies again with the only two possibilities being "nightgown!Mary", as she calls it, and the self-centered ice-bitch. Because that is the only two modes people/women/mothers can have. 

With that mindset it is no wonder she plays the scenes as she does. And I think it does the writing no favours

This. So much.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And of course she oversimplifies again with the only two possibilities being "nightgown!Mary", as she calls it, and the self-centered ice-bitch. Because that is the only two modes people/women/mothers can have. 

I think the original poster was Aeryn13. 

I agree.  Sam Smith can't seem to see Mary in shades of grey.  It's just black and white.  Kim talked about this at her panel that a big weakness in the writing of woman is that people seems to portray them as weak or strong.  But its wrong because people can be both or neither. 

For me, Jody is the perfect example of a strong female character.  We see her hold her own in tough situations but we've also seen her get overwhelmed and need help.

One scene I really liked last season was at Jody's house just after they get out of the bunker.  Dean's sitting there looking a little lost and vulnerable and she just walks over and gives Dean a reassuring pat on the shoulder.   Dean grabs her hand to show he appreciates the gesture.  It was a bit of comfort when Jody saw that Dean was hurting.  We saw and heard about Jody doing motherly things with Claire.  Yet it didn't diminish her as a person.

She's still strong and can hold her one a fight.

So I dont' get the writers approach with Mary.  Why is it they can do it with Jody, but somehow it makes Mary weak or in Sam Smith words, "Nightgown Mary" to demonstrate physical affection toward her sons.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the original poster was Aeryn13. 

I agree.  Sam Smith can't seem to see Mary in shades of grey.  It's just black and white.  Kim talked about this at her panel that a big weakness in the writing of woman is that people seems to portray them as weak or strong.  But its wrong because people can be both or neither. 

For me, Jody is the perfect example of a strong female character.  We see her hold her own in tough situations but we've also seen her get overwhelmed and need help.

One scene I really liked last season was at Jody's house just after they get out of the bunker.  Dean's sitting there looking a little lost and vulnerable and she just walks over and gives Dean a reassuring pat on the shoulder.   Dean grabs her hand to show he appreciates the gesture.  It was a bit of comfort when Jody saw that Dean was hurting.  We saw and heard about Jody doing motherly things with Claire.  Yet it didn't diminish her as a person.

She's still strong and can hold her one a fight.

So I dont' get the writers approach with Mary.  Why is it they can do it with Jody, but somehow it makes Mary weak or in Sam Smith words, "Nightgown Mary" to demonstrate physical affection toward her sons.

And it's also telling of the character that 1) upon seeing this, Mary* reacted with disdain at Jody trying to 'mother' her son. And 2) this is some of Sam Smith's most convincing acting.

*I realize this is brainwashed Mary, but IMO it equates to Soulless Sam and Demon Dean - without their own conscience and filters, what comes out is unvarnished, if heightened, truth.

Edited October 10, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*I realize this is brainwashed Mary, but IMO it equates to Soulless Sam and Demon Dean - without their own conscience and filters, what comes out is unvarnished, if heightened, truth.

Problem was I don't think Mary needed to be brainwashed to act that way.  When said said, "Am I do to different or more of the same."  I thought that line was completely unnecessary because it was obvious it was more of the same.

Mary wasn't interested in being a mom.  Mary was manipulated into a relationship with John, so he really wasn't the great love of her life.  I expect she would have been out of the house sooner rather than later, even if John hadn't died. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Problem was I don't think Mary needed to be brainwashed to act that way.  When said said, "Am I do to different or more of the same."  I thought that line was completely unnecessary because it was obvious it was more of the same.

Mary wasn't interested in being a mom.  Mary was manipulated into a relationship with John, so he really wasn't the great love of her life.  I expect she would have been out of the house sooner rather than later, even if John hadn't died. 

 

I wonder if Sam Smith knows that her and John getting together was a Cupid thing. Someone should ask her about that at a con. 

[trxr4kids]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if Sam Smith knows that her and John getting together was a Cupid thing. Someone should ask her about that at a con. 

I have serious doubts she knows anything about the character. I mean wtf with the comments on her not just being nightgownmary, did it not occur to her that since her character was the only hunter/person in the know that it was literally her own stupidity to blame for being flambe'ed. Way to delve into your character<eye roll>

Edited October 10, 2017 by trxr4kids
way and well, not interchangeable, I should really proof read

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

it equates to Soulless Sam and Demon Dean - without their own conscience and filters, what comes out is unvarnished, if heightened, truth.

I realize this is the Mary thread, and this is OT for this thread and I should take it to another thread, but I'm not going to because all I really want say about this is: I disagree.  

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it's also telling of the character that 1) upon seeing this, Mary* reacted with disdain at Jody trying to 'mother' her son. And 2) this is some of Sam Smith's most convincing acting.

*I realize this is brainwashed Mary, but IMO it equates to Soulless Sam and Demon Dean - without their own conscience and filters, what comes out is unvarnished, if heightened, truth.

This is tough because on one hand I agree and on the other I don't.

I think there are thoughts that Dean and Mary and Sam had in their altered states that may not have settled as "truths" or what they believe in their hearts to be truths. Like I don't think Dean blamed Sam for Mary's death, not really. I think he probably has a thought that "If Sam hadn't been born, and Mom hadn't gone in that room to check on a crying Sam" then Mary might be alive which is factually true but is also not the same as "If it wasn't for you, my mother would be alive". That was a twisted soul using a faulty conclusion as a fear element to harm Sam. We do that to ourselves to with self-defeating behaviors. Faulty conclusions coming from mythical fears to an extent. So with a demon's twisted soul and way of thinking that faulty conclusion is used as a weapon against Sam.

Mary is trickier because she was not possessed nor soulless nor twisted in her own demon head. I think Mary did have a thought that maybe she wasn't what either boy expected her to be, and her state of mind allowed her to say that thought to Dean in the meanest way possible. I think it was a mistake to have brainwashing make her say that because it wasn't shown that brainwashing her was making her think shitty things about her children as much as it was making her just a killing machine and it didn't matter who she was killing. Death was the goal, not being an asshole. I didn't get that scene at all other than it being a NOT!Possession thing.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think it was a mistake to have brainwashing make her say that because it wasn't shown that brainwashing her was making her think shitty things about her children as much as it was making her just a killing machine and it didn't matter who she was killing. Death was the goal, not being an asshole. I didn't get that scene at all other than it being a NOT!Possession thing.

Thing was, òther than the murder spree, she didn`t really act differently after the brainwashing. I mean, the asshole part you mentioned, I saw it as the same before and after. Normally, a brainwashed character is supposed to act all shocking. Legends of Tomorrow did a brainwashed-by-villains-storyline for one of their characters last Season and the difference before and after was night and day.

With Mary, it didn`t have much of an impact on me because how very much not shocked I was by her behaviour. I mean, Lady Deadeyes had to spell it out to her how John changed after her death and what that meant for her children during the couse of the brainwashing. And Mary acted shocked. We saw her with the journal earlier. I can only conclude she is illiterate and could only look at the pictures of monsters but not read the text. That`s why Henry Winchester on the other hand got it after a short read-through. 

So Mary acting in a negative way after the brainwashing was suuuch a different, never-before-seen side to the character. *sarcasm*

[trxr4kids]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it was a mistake to have brainwashing make her say that because it wasn't shown that brainwashing her was making her think shitty things about her children as much as it was making her just a killing machine and it didn't matter who she was killing. Death was the goal, not being an asshole. I didn't get that scene at all other than it being a NOT!Possession thing.

I think it would have made huge difference to me if we were shown her being programmed against her sons and what that entailed, as it was I only saw her being told John was a shitty father which apparently didn't mean crap to her.  IMO this show has a real problem with the show vs tell frequently.

 

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

With Mary, it didn`t have much of an impact on me because how very much not shocked I was by her behaviour. I mean, Lady Deadeyes had to spell it out to her how John changed after her death and what that meant for her children during the couse of the brainwashing. And Mary acted shocked. We saw her with the journal earlier. I can only conclude she is illiterate and could only look at the pictures of monsters but not read the text. That`s why Henry Winchester on the other hand got it after a short read-through. 

It's possible IMO since I think she's a moron as well as cold hearted. 

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Thing was, òther than the murder spree, she didn`t really act differently after the brainwashing. I mean, the asshole part you mentioned, I saw it as the same before and after. Normally, a brainwashed character is supposed to act all shocking. Legends of Tomorrow did a brainwashed-by-villains-storyline for one of their characters last Season and the difference before and after was night and day.

With Mary, it didn`t have much of an impact on me because how very much not shocked I was by her behaviour. I mean, Lady Deadeyes had to spell it out to her how John changed after her death and what that meant for her children during the couse of the brainwashing. And Mary acted shocked. We saw her with the journal earlier. I can only conclude she is illiterate and could only look at the pictures of monsters but not read the text. That`s why Henry Winchester on the other hand got it after a short read-through. 

So Mary acting in a negative way after the brainwashing was suuuch a different, never-before-seen side to the character. *sarcasm*

I laughed more than I probably should have at this. But yeah, even taking the journal out of the equation, if she couldn't see what being raised as they were had done to her kids with her own two eyes, then she is, IMO, just being willfully ignorant. And she was programmed to kill not only her own kind, but her own sons after what amounted to hours of 'brainwashing'? Please.

I wish Dean would go through the rift and find her, just to say he's still waiting for the apology for his life.

15 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

It's possible IMO since I think she's a moron as well as cold hearted. 

*high five*

Edited October 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
missing word

[ILoveReading]

From Castiel's Cat in the Good Intentions episode thread.

Quote

Thank God the writers wrote her as a fully realized character and not as some zombie female mommy trope whose whole life revolves around her kids. She even passes the Bechdahl test or whatever he is called.

Id have to disagree here because there are many areas between what Sam Smith calls "Nightgown Mary" and the Uber hunter extraordinaire they tried to tell us Mary was.  It's why I also don't see Jack as a good character.  He's even more one sides because no matter what happens he's just puppies, and rainbows, and unicorns and sunshine, and kittens . When your character has only one response to everything, whether that response is positive and negative its a badly written character, IMO.  

IMO, Jody is an example of a fully realized character.  She clearly cares about Alex, and Claire and she's motherly and affectionate toward them.   We see her cooking dinner, and asking how they are.  That doesn't take anything away from her being a bad ass sheriff or a good hunter.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't get Dabb's line of thinking that, that showing physical affection towards her sons, means that she's a zombie female mommy trope who doesn't know which end of the gun to hold.  

So my problem with Mary isn't soup and bedtime.  Its that Mary came across as an ice queen.  I didn't feel any emotional connection.  She went through the motions and said said all the right platitudes.  Now,  I get Mary doesn't know these two men in front of her, they're strangers.  I can cut her all kinds of slack on this.  But every bit of effort to establish that connection came from Dean and Sam. What little connections they did have where shallow and surface ones.   Mary didn't reach out to Dean once all season.  With Sam there was one brief moment.    During the events of stuck in the middle Sam tries to make a connection with Mary and she shoots him down. 

Mary leaves at the end of The Foundry.  She basically rejects them because their not her little boys from her head.  Then she doesn't make contact for over a week.  Her excuse is no cell charger.  Landlines still exist.  She said she read John's journal but she still seemed clueless.  Did she ever wonder where Sam and Dean were when John was off for days a time hunting?  Then in Asa Fox, she puts in the effort to cross a border no less to drive hundreds of miles to connect with a kid she saved when he was younger.  Why him?  He was only a kid when she knew him the same way Sam and Dean are.  Why is he so special that she wants to get to know him as an adult?

That's what's missing.  It's the effort on Mary's part.  It's not sandwiches. 

I personally think The Bechdel (or whatever its called) is overrated.  There are several parts of The Black Panther that would fail the test.  The majority of that movie is the woman talking about a male villain and a male hero  but to say that movie mistreated its female characters is ridiculous.  Every single female in that movie is smart, intelligent, strong, and capable.  Including the Queen who we see be affectionate towards her children.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I personally think The Bechdel (or whatever its called) is overrated. 

I agree. It's almost impossible for works to pass Bechdel even Wonder Woman didn't because they talked about Zeus! I mean I think it serves a purpose to address real sexism when a story is supposed to be about a female character but spends most of it's time deferring to males or the bait and switch of a woman's story really being about at man.

Even though Diana and her mother talked about Zeus, that didn't take away from Wonder Woman's strengths, her relationships with her female friends and other characters.

I think the Bechdel needs revision

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I personally think The Bechdel (or whatever its called) is overrated.  There are several parts of The Black Panther that would fail the test.

I thought the Bechdel test was just that two named female characters had to have at least one (so a grand total of one for the whole movie) conversation that wasn't about men.  Personally, I don't even care if a movie or TV show does that.  But, I don't see how "parts" of a movie can fail the test, when it only needs one conversation throughout the whole thing.

And I also don't understand the person who says Mary passes the test.  How can a character pass the test.  

Very few SPN episodes pass the Bechdel test, but again, I don't care.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Katy M

[catrox14]

It was originally in a cartoon about two lesbians trying to find a movie with two women who talk to each other about something other than a man.
 

Quote

 

Originally meant as "a little lesbian joke in an alternative feminist newspaper", according to Bechdel,[20] the test moved into mainstream criticism in the 2010s and has been described as "the standard by which feminist critics judge television, movies, books, and other media".[21] In 2013, an Internet newspaper described it as "almost a household phrase, common shorthand to capture whether a film is woman-friendly".[22] The failure of major Hollywood productions such as Pacific Rim (2013) to pass the test was addressed in depth in the media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test#The_Bechdel_test

 

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It was originally in a cartoon about two lesbians trying to find a movie with two women who talk to each other about something other than a man.
 

On the one hand I'm glad Disney movies fail at something, on the other I agree it needs a serious revision. 

I don't see how the Mary character passes that test since she allegedly did everything she's ever done for or because of men including working for the BMenOL. Maybe I'm missing something, lol.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I don't see how the Mary character passes that test since she allegedly did everything she's ever done for or because of men including working for the BMenOL. Maybe I'm missing something, lol.

This.

[gonzosgirrl]

On top of all the other reasons I have to dislike Mary, they gave me another this week. She didn't even bat an eyelash when Bobby praised her for they way the boys turned out. Unless she was taking credit for dying and keeping herself out of the boys raising, then woman, you had nothing to do with it.

Quote

 

Mary: Bobby, I made that deal. And it -- I brought my boys a [ Sighs ] lot of pain. But What happened here, in your world? Sam and Dean stopped that war in mine. Bobby: Then I'd say you made the right choice.

Mary: Oh.

Bobby: Well, I don't know much, but [ Sighs ] I do know you done good by your boys. They hadn't been here five minutes when they were trying to convince me to come back with them to their world.

Mary: .......

 

 

 

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e14

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Mary: Bobby, I made that deal. And it -- I brought my boys a [ Sighs ] lot of pain. But What happened here, in your world? Sam and Dean stopped that war in mine. Bobby: Then I'd say you made the right choice.

I have to laugh at that writing on that. Sam and Dean caused Lucifer to rise which is why they had to stop the war. It's not like they had nothing to do with. It really bugs me.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On top of all the other reasons I have to dislike Mary, they gave me another this week. She didn't even bat an eyelash when Bobby praised her for they way the boys turned out. Unless she was taking credit for dying and keeping herself out of the boys raising, then woman, you had nothing to do with it.

I thought he meant she did good by them by making the deal and allowing them to be born.  Not something specific she did in raising them.  So, in that sense, yes, she did have something to do with it.  And, also, she did have an influence on Dean's first 5 years, almost. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to laugh at that writing on that. Sam and Dean caused Lucifer to rise which is why they had to stop the war. It's not like they had nothing to do with. It really bugs me.

I don't know that they caused it. I mean, literally, yeah, but they were manipulated at every turn and neither had any way of knowing their actions were the cause of the first or the last seal breaking. And they did stop it. Mary literally had nothing to raising Sam, and very little to do with Dean.

Just now, Katy M said:

I thought he meant she did good by them by making the deal and allowing them to be born.  Not something specific she did in raising them.  So, in that sense, yes, she did have something to do with it.  And, also, she did have an influence on Dean's first 5 years, almost. 

Nah, I don't think so. IMO, Bobby was clearly admiring the men they were - which she had nothing to do with, except in the most oblique way - by dying and being out of their lives.

[bethy]

I find myself somewhat annoyed by Mary constantly referring to Dean and Sam as "my boys." That phrase has an implication of intimacy and relationship that she doesn't have and seemingly didn't want. Call them "Dean and Sam," lady. It's only one extra syllable. (Though I guess it's better than if she were running around talking about "my sons" all the time.)

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know that they caused it. I mean, literally, yeah, but they were manipulated at every turn and neither had any way of knowing their actions were the cause of the first or the last seal breaking. And they did stop it. Mary literally had nothing to raising Sam, and very little to do with Dean.

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought he meant she did good by them by making the deal and allowing them to be born.  Not something specific she did in raising them.  So, in that sense, yes, she did have something to do with it.  And, also, she did have an influence on Dean's first 5 years, almost. 

Be they manipulated by the angels or not, they were technically the two people who broke the first and last seal leading to Lucifer rising. Yes, I know the entire history of how they got there but the narrative seems to be dumbing it down to  "Mary had sex with John and birthed Sam and Dean,  other wise WAR on Earth 1 so YAY MARY!". 

It also has the nasty side affect of only making Mary important because she had sex and gave birth to Dean and Sam. I mean I don't like Mary but that's a pretty lousy and simplistic view of her role IMO. 

Man that was some bad writing in 13.14.  Yikes.

4 minutes ago, bethy said:

(Though I guess it's better than if she were running around talking about "my sons" all the time.)

HA! If she did I might think she was a Mary from the Arrowverse. LOL

Edited March 5, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: It also takes away her terrible trauma as a 19 year old trying to cope with just having lost her whole family. I felt sorry for that Mary.  Yes, I fully think Resurrected!Mary was an ass to her grown children, but messed up 19 year old Mary...I had little issues with her and had sympathy for that deal, which IMO Dean also understood and had sympathy and empathy...until 12.22 when he hated her but not for the actions of the resurrected Mary but for her ONE choice.

Ugh. It's just kind of a big mess of storytelling that,

If they are trying to rehab s12 Mary by making her into Saint Mother Mary for birthing babies that bugs me. I mean especially when they spent so much of s12 driving home the point that Mary is MORE than just a MOM...yet her giving birth ...seems to actually matter the most now...

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Be they manipulated by the angels or not, they were technically the two people who broke the first and last seal leading to Lucifer rising. Yes, I know the entire history of how they got there but the narrative seems to be dumbing it down to  "Mary had sex with John and birthed Sam and Dean,  other wise WAR on Earth 1 so YAY MARY!". 

 

Eh, I guess to me saying they caused it implies more blame than simple statement of fact, when my original post about the line was more about Mary accepting praise for how they turned out. That's on me and my reaction though, so no worries.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Eh, I guess to me saying they caused it implies more blame than simple statement of fact, when my original post about the line was more about Mary accepting praise for how they turned out. That's on me and my reaction though, so no worries.

  I can understand the confusion.  I was more or less agreeing with you that Mary accepted that praise from AU Bobby and to add that because the narrative between AU Bobby and Mary didn't address the whole picture on "Earth-1", it's supporting that acceptance of the praise. I don't know if I clarified it more or made it more confusing. LOL It's all good!.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/9/2017 at 8:48 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, to a certain extent, I think Dean was being manipulative when he was freezing Mary out. Are you telling me that you don't think if Mary showed up at the bunker saying she realized Dean was right and she quit the Brits, Dean wouldn't have let her back in? I'm not saying he wouldn't have still been cold to her, but I think it was part-ploy to get her to bend and part-punishment for not being the mom he wanted.

Now, do I think Dean was wrong for dressing Mary down or being hurt that she was choosing their torturers over them? No, I don't think Dean was wrong at all. But, it wasn't getting Dean what he wanted, which was a relationship with his mom. So, he compromised a bit so that he could have something instead of nothing at all.

Personally, I think Mary was wrong that she used them, wrong that she lied to them and wrong that she ran away from them. But, I also think Mary was struggling and didn't understand exactly what it was Sam and Dean actually wanted from her. That was the real problem, IMO. And I think that's all Samantha Smith is trying to say. She's trying to explain it from Mary's point of view; which was, Mary was a mess.

See, to me, having Dean say twice that it wasn't her job to clean up for them was Dean reminding Mary that he never wanted that from her. He just wanted her to want them, but Mary misunderstood what he wanted so he had to keep telling her--probably because Mary just ain't that bright.

I think that Dean was so hurt that his inner 4 year old came out.  I Don't think that he was in control enough to be manipulative.   I never see Dean as manipulative.  He can be paspassive-aggressive about expressing anger and disappointment but not manipulative.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/3/2018 at 1:43 PM, Katy M said:

I thought the Bechdel test was just that two named female characters had to have at least one (so a grand total of one for the whole movie) conversation that wasn't about men.  Personally, I don't even care if a movie or TV show does that.  But, I don't see how "parts" of a movie can fail the test, when it only needs one conversation throughout the whole thing.

And I also don't understand the person who says Mary passes the test.  How can a character pass the test.  

Very few SPN episodes pass the Bechdel test, but again, I don't care.

I meant as a character she is written to do more than be a mommy to her boys.  Perhaps it was a bad analogy.  I Don't have a problem with her being a grown women with grown sons who is putting her own needs first in a time of her own Great emotional turmoil.  The writing for her far exceeds the requirements of the Bechdahl test. She is written as a character with her own needs and desires.  It would be  bad writing if she were only there to be a mommy to her boys and cater to their emotional needs.

The writers are actually trying with her.  They are trying with WS too to write the female characters like they write the male characters.  I applaud the effort.

I hated Charlie  Sue and Krissy  Sue with a passion.   I like Mary and I like they she is as human, flawed and heroic as her sons. 

I think they are focusing on her deal because it is the beginning of the Winchesters' epic story.  Without the deal there would not be a story.  I suspect it is more a literary trope than an attempt to make her special or vindicate her.

Haters gonna hate and nitpickers gonna nitpick.

On 3/3/2018 at 1:13 PM, catrox14 said:

I agree. It's almost impossible for works to pass Bechdel even Wonder Woman didn't because they talked about Zeus! I mean I think it serves a purpose to address real sexism when a story is supposed to be about a female character but spends most of it's time deferring to males or the bait and switch of a woman's story really being about at man.

Even though Diana and her mother talked about Zeus, that didn't take away from Wonder Woman's strengths, her relationships with her female friends and other characters.

I think the Bechdel needs revision

"I think it serves a purpose to address real sexism when a story is supposed to be about a female character but spends most of it's time deferring to males or the bait and switch of a woman's story really being about at man."

This is what i was referring to.  Mary is being written as an independent character who is looking out for her emotional needs first.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/3/2018 at 11:18 AM, ILoveReading said:

From Castiel's Cat in the Good Intentions episode thread.

Id have to disagree here because there are many areas between what Sam Smith calls "Nightgown Mary" and the Uber hunter extraordinaire they tried to tell us Mary was.  It's why I also don't see Jack as a good character.  He's even more one sides because no matter what happens he's just puppies, and rainbows, and unicorns and sunshine, and kittens . When your character has only one response to everything, whether that response is positive and negative its a badly written character, IMO.  

IMO, Jody is an example of a fully realized character.  She clearly cares about Alex, and Claire and she's motherly and affectionate toward them.   We see her cooking dinner, and asking how they are.  That doesn't take anything away from her being a bad ass sheriff or a good hunter.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't get Dabb's line of thinking that, that showing physical affection towards her sons, means that she's a zombie female mommy trope who doesn't know which end of the gun to hold.  

So my problem with Mary isn't soup and bedtime.  Its that Mary came across as an ice queen.  I didn't feel any emotional connection.  She went through the motions and said said all the right platitudes.  Now,  I get Mary doesn't know these two men in front of her, they're strangers.  I can cut her all kinds of slack on this.  But every bit of effort to establish that connection came from Dean and Sam. What little connections they did have where shallow and surface ones.   Mary didn't reach out to Dean once all season.  With Sam there was one brief moment.    During the events of stuck in the middle Sam tries to make a connection with Mary and she shoots him down. 

Mary leaves at the end of The Foundry.  She basically rejects them because their not her little boys from her head.  Then she doesn't make contact for over a week.  Her excuse is no cell charger.  Landlines still exist.  She said she read John's journal but she still seemed clueless.  Did she ever wonder where Sam and Dean were when John was off for days a time hunting?  Then in Asa Fox, she puts in the effort to cross a border no less to drive hundreds of miles to connect with a kid she saved when he was younger.  Why him?  He was only a kid when she knew him the same way Sam and Dean are.  Why is he so special that she wants to get to know him as an adult?

That's what's missing.  It's the effort on Mary's part.  It's not sandwiches. 

I personally think The Bechdel (or whatever its called) is overrated.  There are several parts of The Black Panther that would fail the test.  The majority of that movie is the woman talking about a male villain and a male hero  but to say that movie mistreated its female characters is ridiculous.  Every single female in that movie is smart, intelligent, strong, and capable.  Including the Queen who we see be affectionate towards her children.

I see what you are saying. I guess I am able to emphasize with her because she is dealing  wirh major gulilt issues, extrene culture shock and her children are suddenly grown men who are absolute strangers to her.

And even though she needed space (so Sam) and needed to hunt to clear her head (so Dean) she and Dean stayed connected through technology. Sam could have done the same thing but chose not to.  

The relationships need to be built which takes time.

I also think the writers chose this route thematically because they are exploring the effect Mary's loss had on Dean and how it is the root of his tragic flaws, and said flaws will drive him this season  to make one if his reckless sacrifices to save her. So thematically everything works.

Her working with the BMOL really bugged me because they demonstrated that they were a threat.  Now I think in Sam fashion she ignored the Alarm bells because she needed to do something to correct the damage she had done and had the fantasy of killing all monsters so her boys would not have to hunt.

I think once the Ramiel fiasco happened she should have realized that she had been used to gather a fancy toy and she should have walked away. But then Sam trusted Ruby and became addicted to demon blood... It is the same kind of myopic thinking. 

[Jeddah]

The Bechdel Test isn’t that women can never discuss a man. It’s that a movie (or episode) has at least one scene of women talking about something else. 

For anyone curious, here’s the original 1985 comic by Alison Bechdel that started it: 

 

I definitely care about the Bechdel test, but I understand that it isn’t always going to happen on a show with two male leads. I appreciate scenes like Rowena trying to convince other women to join a Mega Coven, Jody telling Claire to be careful, or Charlie and Dorothy discussing hunting. It’s not THAT hard to have at least a few scenes that pass.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Jeddah

[Pondlass1]

I hope Mary floats on up back to Heaven at the end of the season.  Amara's 'gift' turned out to be nothing but pain and anguish for Sam and Dean.  And I learned things about Mother Mary I didn't want to know.  I don't like her. I never will no matter how hard they try to redeem her. 

She is compassionate with the dirty apocalypse children, but left her own young sons in an unwarded house while she flounced off to Canada to deal with a vampire who killed someone else's son (or whatever, I can't remember).

She is cold and distant and horrible. She doesn't deserve awesome sons like Dean and Sam. 

[Jeddah]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope Mary floats on up back to Heaven at the end of the season.  Amara's 'gift' turned out to be nothing but pain and anguish for Sam and Dean.  And I learned things about Mother Mary I didn't want to know.  I don't like her. I never will no matter how hard they try to redeem her. 

She is compassionate with the dirty apocalypse children, but left her own young sons in an unwarded house while she flounced off to Canada to deal with a vampire who killed someone else's son (or whatever, I can't remember).

She is cold and distant and horrible. She doesn't deserve awesome sons like Dean and Sam. 

Do you feel the same way about John?

I really hate John and think he was horrible. I don’t hate Mary. I don’t particularly like her, but I don’t think she’s completely terrible. IMO, John was way worse. I’m curious what people think about Mary’s character in comparison to John.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Jeddah said:

Do you feel the same way about John?

I really hate John and think he was horrible. I don’t hate Mary. I don’t particularly like her, but I don’t think she’s completely terrible. IMO, John was way worse. I’m curious what people think about Mary’s character in comparison to John.

I think Mary is worse. Don't get me wrong, I think John was a terrible parent, too, but he became what he became after horrible circumstances were forced upon him. By all accounts he was a normal, loving husband and father before the fire. Mary, however, knew what she knew and chose their fate (for all of them). She knew she'd made some kind of deal, she knew this demon had already murdered her parents and John, so his promise that 'nobody gets hurt if you do what I say' should have been meaningless to her. And if she'd just stuck her head in the sand and hoped it all went away right up until that night? Maybe I'd cut her some slack. But now it's canon that she was still hunting after Dean was born. And still she did nothing to protect her family. So for me, John failed his sons post-fire, but probably did the best he could. Mary failed them in every way, including post-resurrection.

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think Mary is worse. Don't get me wrong, I think John was a terrible parent, too, but he became what he became after horrible circumstances were forced upon him. By all accounts he was a normal, loving husband and father before the fire. Mary, however, knew what she knew and chose their fate (for all of them). She knew she'd made some kind of deal, she knew this demon had already murdered her parents and John, so his promise that 'nobody gets hurt if you do what I say' should have been meaningless to her. And if she'd just stuck her head in the sand and hoped it all went away right up until that night? Maybe I'd cut her some slack. But now it's canon that she was still hunting after Dean was born. And still she did nothing to protect her family. So for me, John failed his sons post-fire, but probably did the best he could. Mary failed them in every way, including post-resurrection.

ITA. Mary was/is worse. Way worse, IMO also.

Although if it ever came out that John, w/o a doubt, physically abused Dean, at any time, I reserve the right to re-visit this particular comparison. ;-)

[Pondlass1]

Mary is worse.  I don't hate John.  The guy had a breakdown then went on a revenge fueled rampage dragging his sons along.  It's been hinted John was physical with Dean; in any event he did put them in danger and cared little for their needs in terms of schooling and hugs.  But I get his issues. Until Mary died he was a dad.

Mary apparently was never a Mom.  I don't think she was smart or compassionate ever.

I don't think her boys received any of her genes (hope not anyway).

[Res]

18 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Mary is being written as an independent character who is looking out for her emotional needs first.  

So basically a woman has to be an independently selfish character to pass this test thing . . . and that's supposed to be a fully, I don't know, realized? "feminist" woman? 

If that's the case, that's why I never wanted any part of that movement. To do what she's done to what she acknowledged were her real adult sons in leaving them alone, clueless and worried while she went off and joined the "enemy" in the "attempt to "fix" the world for her "sons"" is no better than when John would leave for days on end, except that he actually came back on his own eventually. I don't see the "attempt to fix" as anything other than "let me get this done so I can go back to my 'real' boys in Heaven because I really don't care to know these two adults". One, they're hunters. Two, my baby boys are in Heaven so screw this Popsicle stand.

Sorry, but this dog don't hunt, as the saying goes. If she was culture shocked, the brothers were helping her adapt with increasing her knowledge. They never once patted her on the head and told her to run along to the kitchen since things were too complicated for her "puir wittle" female brain. They didn't ask her to clean up after them or change their non-diapers or wash their clothes. When a hunt was mentioned, she was on it with them. When she asked for space, they gave it to her willingly, without strings or conditions. 

The fact that she then used that space to sleep with the most psychotic of their enemies I'm sure was her just taking care of her needs, just like Dean does all the time, right?

Sorry but she was just looking out for her and a way to get back home to Heaven, bottom line.

And, yes, I do believe she is way worse than John as now looking back at the DSOTM episode, I'm wondering if John didn't come home because of her little trip during Asa Fox or any other little trips, leading him to think she was cheating on her? Or was he working overtime because of the bills and sleeping at the shop because of the suspicious thing? Like Dean said, things were perfect until after she was dead. 

In any case, John did drop of the deep end and fall back to his military background based on a perceived threat against his family and needing to know how to protect them from that. From what the show has shown, I do think he cared deeply for the brothers, even if he wasn't anywhere close to father of the year. I know I can honestly say I've had worse and they didn't even have a normal excuse, much less a supernatural one. So, yeah, my excitement for having Mary back at the end of S11 dwindled and completely extinguished by the end of the 2nd episode of S12. I used to think she'd at least care more about the brothers than the hunt. Boy, did the show prove me very wrong! 

If that's a strong independent woman, no wonder this next gen is acting like they are. IMO

All opinions express in this are JMHOs.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Res said:

So basically a woman has to be an independently selfish character to pass this test thing . . . and that's supposed to be a fully, I don't know, realized? "feminist" woman? 

If that's the case, that's why I never wanted any part of that movement.

It's one test for media consumption. I wouldn't extrapolate it to the entire movement :).

[Res]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's one test for media consumption. I wouldn't extrapolate it to the entire movement :).

Ok. Thanks. 

I guess I just never cared about any of that and always judged things on my own standards. I didn't even know that test was a thing. Lol.:)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Res said:

Ok. Thanks. 

I guess I just never cared about any of that and always judged things on my own standards. I didn't even know that test was a thing. Lol.:)

A lot of people don't know about it. I consider myself a feminist and I've always had issues with it being a good measure of either feminist ideals or sexism in most of media. I get what it's trying to do, I just think it's too limiting.

[ahrtee]

Just now, catrox14 said:

A lot of people don't know about it. I consider myself a feminist and I've always had issues with it being a good measure of either feminist ideals or sexism in most of media. I get what it's trying to do, I just think it's too limiting.

Well, according to those standards, two women discussing shoes and makeup would pass the test, but the same women discussing how to save a man from a monster wouldn't. :(  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, according to those standards, two women discussing shoes and makeup would pass the test, but the same women discussing how to save a man from a monster wouldn't. :(  

And this is an example of why it needs some revising.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Res said:

So basically a woman has to be an independently selfish character to pass this test thing . . . and that's supposed to be a fully, I don't know, realized? "feminist" woman? 

If that's the case, that's why I never wanted any part of that movement.

 

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Mary Winchester is the only way to be a feminist. Feminism is a big, diverse tent with people who have many different perspectives, experiences, and beliefs.

Alison Bechdel intended the Bechdel test as commentary on the way women are represented on screen. It was a comic strip, not a militaristic decree. In my  every day life I have lots of conversations with other women that aren’t about men. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to see that portrayed in movies and tv shows sometimes. 

53 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, according to those standards, two women discussing shoes and makeup would pass the test, but the same women discussing how to save a man from a monster wouldn't. :(  

Fair point! Although I’m guessing if there are two women discussing how to save a man from a monster, then that’s probably not their only scene in the entire movie/show. There’s probably at least one scene in there that passes the Bechdel Test.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Jeddah

[ahrtee]

Never mind.  

Edited March 7, 2018 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

23 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Mary apparently was never a Mom.  I don't think she was smart or compassionate ever

I don't know that that's true.  She cut the crusts off of Dean's sandwiches. Made him pie (or I guess bought it, I don't know that being a bad cook means that you're not a mom).  Made him soup when he was sick.  Sang Hey Jude to him to put him to sleep.  Took Dean and Sam to the park.  And presumably stayed home taking care of him most of the time, bar her Asa Fox vacation. We don't know if she had any other hunts or not. But, we do know that the Dean remembers her taking care of him.  True, he could idealize it, but I doubt he made up the details, so it happened.  And, then we know that she got up to check on Sam when she heard him fussing in the middle of the night and ran upstairs to save him when she realized it wasn't John in the room.  She could have just run out of the door if she wanted to be 100% self-serving. 

[gonzosgirrl]

And then there's this.

Mary can't die quickly enough for me.

I bet Sam and Dean would like a second chance at a childhood, too.