S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[Diane]

Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) asks Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for help on a case she’s working but neglects to mention the British Men of Letters are involved. When Mary is double crossed, everything is revealed.  Writer: Davy Perez, Richard Speight Jr. Directs

[catrox14]

Since I'm freaking worried about Cas.

(Please don't destroy him, show)

 

i

 

Dean Meets Castiel. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

I'm sure Cas will be fine. He may be 'changed' though. I have heard that phrase thrown around. Intriguing.

While we are waiting if anyone wants to play the Guess the Ratings Game it is in the Games section - link below 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/53553-guess-the-ratings-1212/#comment-2995687

Edited February 16, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Mick Lady]

I always forget what they are on Thursdays!

My Teddy Bear is very sick! Help!

[catrox14]

Well I really don't know what to make of this episode. I'll have to rewatch and process.

But thank god, Cas survived.

Dean finally got his hands on the Michael sword. After Sam killed Ramiel with it. Of course.

And somehow Lucifer is back in the cage in Nick's meatsuit. WHATEVER. 

Is there a difference between the Lance of Michael and the Michael Sword.

I am 100% done with Mary.  Yeah, it's all great that they got the Colt back so that was cool.  But she fucked up and nearly got Cas killed.  She's being an idiot. 

Crowley saved Cas. Why?

Edited February 17, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

So much for Wally...and he had so much promise!  What a waste of a potential fellow hunter.  As to the rest, yes, a re-watch is definitely required.  Not sure what to make of it at this point.  

Was Mary prepared to let Cas and her sons die so she could get the colt to the BMOL?  That's not going to go over well with Sam and Dean, I don't think, and Cas is already suspicious.  They really haven't made Mary very likable since bringing her back.

And Lucifer...maybe, now that Dean saved Michael's spear, he can use that to kill the asshat once and for all!

Edited February 17, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Is there a difference between the Lance of Michael and the Michael Sword?

I haven't seen the episode yet, so I really shouldn't comment, but from what I've gathered the Lance of Michael is the weapon they got in this episode. Dean is the Michael Sword, at least if you go by what Zachariah said in Sympathy for the Devil :)

[Demented Daisy]

Could have done without Lucifer there at the end, but all in all, not bad.  One of the better efforts this season.

When do the others show up?  

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is there a difference between the Lance of Michael and the Michael Sword.

Yeah, Michael's sword was just the euphemism for Michael's vessel.

[Morrigan2575]

First thought, someone is a huge Tarantino fan. This episode felt like a Pulp Fiction/The Hateful 8 mashup. 

I really like this episode,  i found it exciting and, I liked the villain.  I also loved the surprise of seeing Mark P at the end. I just went back to check the credits and they managed to keep him out for a real surprise. I liked Misha's Lucifer but, Mark P"s was really the most entertaining. 

It's funny, during the 2nd run through of the fight at the house, i actually wondered what happened to the Colt. I didn't really expect that to be the prize but, it was cool to see it again. 

I also enjoyed the revelation that Azazel was a Prince of Hell, 2nd only to Lilith in rank of succession.  Of course I'm not sure where Cain and the Knights of Hell fit in but, I'm cool with the setup. I hope we get to meet the other two "princes" name dropped tonight. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[bearcatfan]

LOL at Cas sniffing Mandy.

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Was Mary prepared to let Cas and her sons die so she could get the colt to the BMOL?  That's not going to go over well with Sam and Dean, I don't think, and Cas is already suspicious.  They really haven't made Mary very likable since bringing her back.

I've been giving her the benefit of the doubt but that really made her look bad.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

I always forget what they are on Thursdays!

My Teddy Bear is very sick! Help!

Teddy bear doctors!!!!

I'm intrigued about the return of the Colt.  You know they wouldn't have bothered bringing it back unless they have a plan for it.  Lucifer Jr probably.  I think Mary really betrayed Sam and Dean.  That gun would have killed Ramael.  She risked their lives by keeping it hidden.  I don't know that I can forgive that.  I mean, yes, hunting is risky in and of itself.  But, if something is way stronger than you, and you have a weapon that can take it down, and you don't use it simply because you need to keep your secret hidden, you've crossed some kind of line.

[Jediknight]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And somehow Lucifer is back in the cage in Nick's meatsuit. WHATEVER. 

Until Dean uses Michael's weapon on him, he's always going to come back.

So now the Winchesters have Lucifer's baby to hunt down, the cosmic consequences from killing Billie, and they've now killed a Prince of Hell which will piss off his siblings.  They've screwed the pooch,  And that's not counting the British Men of Letters.

Now, why does Crowley need the Colt so bad if he thinks the Winchesters will always have his back?

[ZennyKenny]

You're watching Supernatural. Brought to you by Quentin Tarantino, apparently.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Jediknight said:

Now, why does Crowley need the Colt so bad if he thinks the Winchesters will always have his back?

Because he's not that stupid, he doesn't really believe that.  They were supposed to have Wally's back, too, if you think about it.

 

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Yeah, Michael's sword was just the euphemism for Michael's vessel.

There was also an actual sword, most likely his archangel blade, as that is what he was planning on using to kill Lucifer with during the Apocalypse.  Plus Demon Bobby said the Michael sword was what Michael used to kick Lucifer out of Heaven in the first place.

[catrox14]

Before everyone gets carried away. I KNOW Dean is the Michael Sword.

I should have phrased my ponderance better. I was wondering if Michael the archangel actually had a literal sword called the Michael sword but here they are calling it the Lance of Michael.

8 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Until Dean uses Michael's weapon on him, he's always going to come back.

PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN. COME ON!!! MAKE IT SO!

[Binns]

I liked this a lot on first watch. I tend to really enjoy Speight's episodes as a rule. Need to rewatch but enjoyed it the whole way through. I'm having a real problem with Mary...she's reminding me of John and not in a good way. She really ran the risk of losing one or both of the boys. 

-liked when she told them all to knock it off at the table..."sorry, Mom!"

- genuinely worried about Cas. I felt like Dean would have been a bit more upset though? 

- someone remind me...when was the last time we saw the Colt? I thought the boys had it all this time for some reason. 

[Jediknight]

9 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

You're watching Supernatural. Brought to you by Quentin Tarantino, apparently.

Stay tuned for Riverdale which is following Supernatural, but now here's a preview for Riverdale airing tonight on CW, the official home of Riverdale.

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There was also an actual sword, most likely his archangel blade, as that is what he was planning on using to kill Lucifer with during the Apocalypse.

According to this episode, he was going to use the spear, not a sword.

I don't remember Michael ever talking about using a sword to kill Lucifer.  Which episode was that?

Besides, Demon Bobby was mistaken -- he believed that the sword they were looking for was an actual, physical sword.  Perhaps that was another story they heard in "demon Sunday school".  ;-) 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

11 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Until Dean uses Michael's weapon on him, he's always going to come back.

PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN. COME ON!!! MAKE IT SO!

If it's just a matter of Dean killing Lucifer with Michael's spear, fine.  But if he finally becomes Michael's vessel -- please, Chuck, no.  I never want to see Dean as anyone but Dean ever again.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There was also an actual sword, most likely his archangel blade, as that is what he was planning on using to kill Lucifer with during the Apocalypse.  Plus Demon Bobby said the Michael sword was what Michael used to kick Lucifer out of Heaven in the first place.

So is Michael's Sword still out there?

I swear if they have Dean go on a mission to find the literal sword of Michael (if the Lance is not the same thing) to kill Lucifer and or his spawn, I will be a happy camper

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

According to this episode, he was going to use the spear, not a sword.

I don't remember Michael ever talking about using a sword to kill Lucifer.  Which episode was that?

He didn't talk about it, specifically, but they all had the angel blades.  Additionally, Crowley couldn't have had the weapon Michael was going to use to kill Lucifer because that would have ended up in the cage with them.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So is Michael's Sword still out there?

See my above response.

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Additionally, Crowley couldn't have had the weapon Michael was going to use to kill Lucifer because that would have ended up in the cage with them.

Hey, I'm just going by what they said in tonight's episode -- that Michael was going to use the spear on Lucifer because it would kill him slowly and painfully.

How Crowley got it, who knows?

[catrox14]

So, was Cas powered up by Michael's grace in the Lance or was he just healed?

If he was powered up does that make Cas an Archangel now?  Or is he actually Michael now? Hmmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if they had him play Michael, I mean, he's been Lucifer. Why not Michael too? LOL

Just now, Demented Daisy said:

y, I'm just going by what they said in tonight's episode -- that Michael was going to use the spear on Lucifer because it would kill him slowly and painfully.

Maybe the Lance of Michael causes a slow painful death on purpose, and the actual Sword of Michael is a quicker death. Michael was the warrior angel so he probably had a number of weapons.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Stay tuned for Riverdale which is following Supernatural, but now here's a preview for Riverdale airing tonight on CW, the official home of Riverdale.

I legit LOL'd. Gods, this is so fucking true and annoying!

[Katy M]

Speaking of Michael, is Lucifer in the fake cage that Rowena made to bring him out, or is he in the real cage?  If he's in the real cage, why/how would Crowley move that to his throne room, and why wouldn't Michael be in it too?  If it's the fake cage, how did that happen?  Wasn't the spell supposed to put him back in the actual cage, or did they not actually say that, was it just supposed to send him to hell?  And, if Crowley had access to Lucifer, if I were him I wouldn't have broken the spear to save Cas, I'd have taken it and killed Lucifer.

[bethy]

I really enjoyed this one. 

Wally, we barely knew you, but I liked you. 

I found the conversation around the table about waitresses smelling like food surprisingly entertaining. Wally agreeing with Dean about that being a bonus and Sam all, "How is that a plus?!" actually made me laugh out loud.

Mary, Mary, Mary. I expected her to give up what she stole when threatened, so her willingness to risk all of them to keep it was troubling. She was mad at the BMoL guy because she almost lost "one of her boys" but she was the one who put BOTH of them in danger AND took a chance with them both again when she didn't give up the gun.

On that same thought who, specifically, did she mean when she said she almost lost "one"? Dean and Sam both almost got killed, didn't they? 

I, too, got a kick out of Nick back as Lucifer. Mark P. Has a lot of charisma in that role for me.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Binns said:

genuinely worried about Cas. I felt like Dean would have been a bit more upset though? 

I'm going with Dean was in shock that the only other person he loves like family was possibly dying and that he just couldn't comprehend it.  It's all I got. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

Mary, Mary, Mary. I expected her to give up what she stole when threatened, so her willingness to risk all of them to keep it was troubling. She was mad at the BMoL guy because she almost lost "one of her boys" but she was the one who put BOTH of them in danger AND took a chance with them both again when she didn't give up the gun.

On that same thought who, specifically, did she mean when she said she almost lost "one"? Dean and Sam both almost got killed, didn't they? 

Forget giving the Colt up.  Shoot him with it.  I was wondering which one she meant, also.  Maybe she wasn't being specific, but just meant that one of them may have died.  I hope she wasn't Cas her son.  That would be weird.

[catrox14]

Just now, bethy said:

On that same thought who, specifically, did she mean when she said she almost lost "one"? Dean and Sam both almost got killed, didn't they? 

I felt like that was nod to Cas that she thinks of him as one of her sons...which I don't really buy would be the case because that would be pretty contrived.  Otherwise I think she was talking about Dean because Ramiel was getting the better of Dean and then Sam got the spear and killed him.

[MysteryGuest]

I thought Dean looked pretty upset over Cas.  He had tears in his eyes at the end.  

[bethy]

Quote

I felt like that was nod to Cas that she thinks of him as one of her sons...which I don't really buy would be the case because that would be pretty contrived. 

Huh. It never occurred to me that Mary would mean Cas. I'm with you that that would feel contrived. I don't buy at all that she would consider Cas a son at this point.

Edited February 17, 2017 by bethy
Clarity is good

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Binns said:

- someone remind me...when was the last time we saw the Colt? I thought the boys had it all this time for some reason. 

Did they ever get it back after Bela stole it in season 3? I can't remember...

[catrox14]

The last time the Colt was seen was in Frontierland in the past.  So I guess Crowley did a little time traveling to get it?

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Did they ever get it back after Bela stole it in season 3? I can't remember...

They got it from Crowley in Abandon all Hope.  That same episode, they lost it to Lucifer.  WE saw it again in Frontierland, but it stayed in the past.

[auntvi]

I   think Dean left the colt on the battlefield when it didn't kill Lucifer. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So I guess Crowley did a little time traveling to get it?

I don't know how he got it back from Lucifer, but I don't think Crowley has time-travelling mojo.  Especially pre-King of Hell.  Plus, technically, if he stole it from the 1800s, then how would Daniel have inherited, and then the Winchesters get it, and then Azazel would still be alive.  This is why I hate time travel.  Nobody ever accounts for everything.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I don't know how he got it back from Lucifer, but I don't think Crowley has time-travelling mojo.  Especially pre-King of Hell.

There is no indication IIRC to when Crowley got the Colt. He could have done it after he became King of Hell. And he could use a spell like Abaddon did to pluck Gavin out of the timeline.  I think there are any number of ways Crowley could get it. 

[Binns]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, was Cas powered up by Michael's grace in the Lance or was he just healed?

If he was powered up does that make Cas an Archangel now?  Or is he actually Michael now? Hmmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if they had him play Michael, I mean, he's been Lucifer. Why not Michael too? LOL

Maybe the Lance of Michael causes a slow painful death on purpose, and the actual Sword of Michael is a quicker death. Michael was the warrior angel so he probably had a number of weapons.

Hmmmm....he is changing or transforming or something isn't he? Per Misha? He seemed pretty off still at the end. Sort of like he didn't fit into his body. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I   think Dean left the colt on the battlefield when it didn't kill Lucifer. 

That's the rub with the Frontierland episode.  Dean got the colt and used it to kill the Phoenix but then it also ended up in the present before Dean went to the past.  How does that even work? LOL

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

There is no indication IIRC to when Crowley got the Colt. He could have done it after he became King of Hell. And he could use a spell like Abaddon did to pluck Gavin out of the timeline.  I think there are any number of ways Crowley could get it

Wasn't the implication that the Colt was one of the things that Crowley gave to Ramael when they had that meeting and Ramael then made him the king of Hell?  Otherwise, how would RAmael have gotten it, if Crowley was supposed to be leaving him alone.  I admit I could have missed an exchange.  It's hard to memorize an episode on first viewing.  But, whenever he went back in tie to get it, if that were done, it still wouldn't have been available to kill Azazel in Season 2.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

Wasn't the implication that the Colt was one of the things that Crowley gave to Ramael when they had that meeting and Ramael then made him the king of Hell?  Otherwise, how would RAmael have gotten it, if Crowley was supposed to be leaving him alone.  I admit I could have missed an exchange.  It's hard to memorize an episode on first viewing.  But, whenever he went back in tie to get it, if that were done, it still wouldn't have been available to kill Azazel in Season 2.

Oh maybe so. I have to rewatch later so yeah maybe I missed that.

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Dean got the colt and used it to kill the Phoenix but then it also ended up in the present before Dean went to the past.  How does that even work? LOL

Nope, that wasn't how it worked. 
"Bela stole the colt and gave it to Crowley, Lillith's right-hand man.  Didn't you read the books?"  Becky, The REal Ghostbusters.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

Nope, that wasn't how it worked. 
"Bela stole the colt and gave it to Crowley, Lillith's right-hand man.  Didn't you read the books?"  Becky, The REal Ghostbusters.

Chuck stopped publishing after that. So Becky didn't have the 411 on Dean and Sam's trip to Frontierland

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, bethy said:

Huh. It never occurred to me that Mary would mean Cas. I'm with you that that would feel contrived. I don't buy at all that she would consider Cas a son at this point.

It took me a second to come up with Cas after she made the comment.  I stopped to think,  was Dean almost killed? Then I realized she had to mean Cas, he was the only one actually close to death tonight.

I know Crowley isn't everyone's cup of tea but, I constantly feel like the Winchesters are too mean to him. Logically I know he probably deserves it but, my heart says "poor baby". I was glad he went to try and talk Ramiel down.

Speaking of names, isn't that an odd name for a human/demon?  "iel" usually means "of god" i even did a quick Google search and Ramiel is an archangel, means Mercy of God.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

They got it from Crowley in Abandon all Hope.  That same episode, they lost it to Lucifer.  WE saw it again in Frontierland, but it stayed in the past.

Crap, I can't believe I forgot that; maybe because I don't rewatch that ep because it's ultimately so depressing :(

Edited February 17, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Speaking of names, isn't that an odd name for a human/demon?  

Maybe he's a fallen angel. I don't know if that was ever made clear.

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I know Crowley isn't everyone's cup of tea but, I constantly feel like the Winchesters are too mean to him. Logically I know he probably deserves but, my heart says "poor baby". I was glad he went to try and talk Ramiel down.

Crowley helped Dean be turned into a demon without Dean's knowledge nor consent. I have NO sympathy for Crowley. EVER.

[Wynne88]

Quote

She was mad at the BMoL guy because she almost lost "one of her boys" but she was the one who put BOTH of them in danger AND took a chance with them both again when she didn't give up the gun.

Not to mention her willingness to partner with them and hide it from her sons, despite the fact that they tortured Sam.  I think Dean will have a really hard time forgiving that.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck stopped publishing after that. So Becky didn't have the 411 on Dean and Sam's trip to Frontierland

Yes, but you were saying that they got the Colt from Frontierland to shoot Lucifer with in Abandon All Hope, and was wondering how they got it fro the past, before they went back to the past.  That didn't happen.  Bela stole the colt in Dream a Little Dream.  She then went and gave it to Crowley. Crowley held on to it until Abandon All Hope when he gave it to Sam and Dean in order for them to kill Lucifer with it.  Dean then shot Lucifer with it to no avail, Lucifer tossed hi into a tree, and due to the lack of them putting weapons aon a bungee, the Colt went flying.  Castiel then zapped in and zapped them out, leaving the Colt with Lucifer.  I believe that at some point in time after that, Crowley must have gotten the Colt.  Maybe Lucifer had store it somewhere and one of his minions eventually gave it to Crowley.  You seem to think Crowley time-travelled to get it, but then dont' seem to be able to tell me how the bartender Elkins then left it to his great-tgreat grandson Daniel Elkins so that it would be available for Dean to use it to kill Azazel.

And, don't even get me started on Henry and Abaddon time-travelling.  Azazel told Dean in IN the Beginning that he only knew of one thing with the juice for time-travel and then he referenced the angel on his shoulder.  Once they do something on this show that's supposed to be incredibly hard, all of a sudden, pretty much everyone can do it.

Sorry, if this comes across as way grumpy, but I really do have a hate on for time travel.  Because, like I said, nobody ever accounts for everything. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Katy M

[7kstar]

Tonight's spaghetti western brought to you by...  I did enjoy the music choices.  I did wonder if they were wanting everyone to think of Frontierland...

This one was fun in several ways and a lot to process on rewatch. 

Mary you are heading for a hard fall and what will it cost you????

I kept waiting to see Dean and Sam on the outside of the restaurant spying on Mom and British Mol.  Would she have allowed Dean and Sam to die?

Poor Crowley never gets any respect.  But he does have a really strong point...you usually die if you go against the Winchesters.

I did love Cas's goodbye speech but really didn't think they were doing it yet.  Glad that everyone knows that Cas sees them all as family.

[rue721]

I'm probably being dense but I don't understand how you can "leave" a physical object in the past anyway? Assuming that nobody destroys it, wouldn't the object just continue to exist and eventually be in the present again?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, but you were saying that they got the Colt from Frontierland to shoot Lucifer with in Abandon All Hope, and was wondering how they got it fro the past, before they went back to the past.  That didn't happen.  Bela stole the colt in Dream a Little Dream.  She then went and gave it to Crowley. Crowley held on to it until Abandon All Hope when he gave it to Sam and Dean in order for them to kill Lucifer with it.  Dean then shot Lucifer with it to no avail, Lucifer tossed hi into a tree, and due to the lack of them putting weapons aon a bungee, the Colt went flying.  Castiel then zapped in and zapped them out, leaving the Colt with Lucifer.  I believe that at some point in time after that, Crowley must have gotten the Colt.  Maybe Lucifer had store it somewhere and one of his minions eventually gave it to Crowley.  You seem to think Crowley time-travelled to get it, but then dont' seem to be able to tell me how Elkins then left it to his great-tgreat grandson Daniel Elkins so that it would be available for Dean to use it to kill Azazel.

 

Ermm.. I was just speculating. I didn't say it was a foregone conclusion.  It's just fun for me to think how that could happen.  It's not a big deal for me either way!

Edited February 17, 2017 by catrox14