S12.E13: Spencer

[zannej]

11 minutes ago, UncleChuck said:

Not so sure...Hotch is not "real".  He would have been performing the same lines as written by TPTB for Prentiss. 

Well, if Hotch was written as in-character and the way he'd been established in the earlier seasons, his approach would have differed from Emily's. But, you're right in that the current writers probably wouldn't have changed much of anything.

[Droogie]

I thought Emily was just great, but I do lament that Hotch wasn't there to handle it.  It would've been a beautiful thing.   Not that he could've put one over on the Mexican authorities, but I would've loved to see his interactions with Spencer.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Droogie

[smoker]

43 minutes ago, Droogie said:

I thought Emily was just great, but I do lament that Hotch wasn't there to handle it.  It would've been a beautiful thing.   Not that he could've put one over on the Mexican authorities, but I would've loved to see his interactions with Spencer.

Sorry I'm quoting like this but I couldn't copy @zannej comment after I posted mine. 

"Well, if Hotch was written as in-character and the way he'd been established in the earlier seasons, his approach would have differed from Emily's. But, you're right in that the current writers probably wouldn't have changed much of anything."

 

Thank you Droogie and Zannej! I love Hotch and Reid realtionship in the first seasons and I am sorry writers left their relationship aside (next to quality and continuity). Droogie, you have made me remember The fisher king I and the awesome scene where Hotch "rescues" Elle.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Hotch had a moment to help the team at the end of the season? I think there is a cheapy way to bring Hotch again to protect his friends, without bringing TG back, he is a sniper after all and Mr. Scratch could be finished by a long distance shot in a decisive moment.

A girl can dream... xD

Edited February 18, 2017 by smoker

[Droogie]

Oh how I love Hotch.  I'm a person who hates change, so when SFM departed CM, I was crushed.  Then the whole Thomas Gibson debacle -- I'm still not over it.  Of course, I've judgedthe entire show on how everything affects Spencer Reid since Season 1. But the extraordinary chemistry between Morgan and Reid and Hotch and Reid is indisputable.  

I loved Spencer. I am biased for MGG but it was easily the best (or in the top 3) episode since S5. The only thing that could've made it better would be if Morgan and Hotch were there, and...

...I get that we have new peeps now, but that still doesn't excuse the presence of the CM:BB people.  My gosh, how unnecessary.  Is there even one person in the entire CM fandom who is saying "Thank goodness we had the CMBB people there!"  I think not.

[smoker]

I didn't watch the episode, but I understand the feeling. Moreover, a CM:BB crossover is bad news not matter what :(

[illdoc]

I think the CM:BB people were there just to remind us that the show still exists. Isn't it supposed to be starting up again in March?

[ReidFan]

8 minutes ago, illdoc said:

I think the CM:BB people were there just to remind us that the show still exists. Isn't it supposed to be starting up again in March?

Polite answer: yes, probably

My gut reply: who cares! O:-)

[secnarf]

2 hours ago, smoker said:

I didn't watch the episode, but I understand the feeling. Moreover, a CM:BB crossover is bad news not matter what :(

Frankly, I think we were lucky that this was the extent of the 'crossover'.

[ForeverAlone]

Nice little shoutout to Matthew's performance in this episode.

http://tvline.com/2017/02/18/sterling-k-brown-this-is-us-performance-season-1/

[ReidFan]

Yes, wow.  Thank you FA, that was a good read. 

[BellyLaughter]

Most.boring.episode.ever...

Here's hoping the rest of the arc doesn't suck as well....

[Droogie]

We couldn't have been watching the same show.

[Bookish Jen]

11 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

Nice little shoutout to Matthew's performance in this episode.

http://tvline.com/2017/02/18/sterling-k-brown-this-is-us-performance-season-1/

How lovely. Thanks for sharing.

[SSAHotchner]

I haven't been watching this season, but I watched this one because I love Reid. I thought he did a wonderful job. As for the CMBB crossover, their part was so limited that it didn't bother me. Not sure how necessary they were, but at least they didn't take over the case or take focus away from the (giant now) team. I'm not sure where they're going with this and I'm certain, as usual, there are plenty of plot holes as some of you have pointed out. But MGG made it worth tuning in. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

After some ponderance earlier today, I find I have to agree with @Danielg342, about how the writers have really mishandled the opportunity that 'Mr. Scratch' represented as a villain.

Just in this last episode alone, if the vials of meds for Reid's mom are legit, why didn't Scratch plant illegal stuff in them to really twist the screws to Reid and make sure he's got so much more to fight for to keep from going to prison or staying out?

I came up with that on my own in a couple minutes, what's the writers' excuse?

[SSAHotchner]

Just now, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

After some ponderance earlier today, I find I have to agree with @Danielg342, about how the writers have really mishandled the opportunity that 'Mr. Scratch' represented as a villain.

Just in this last episode alone, if the vials of meds for Reid's mom are legit, why didn't Scratch plant illegal stuff in them to really twist the screws to Reid and make sure he's got so much more to fight for to keep from going to prison or staying out?

I came up with that on my own in a couple minutes, what's the writers' excuse?

I have thought all along that Mr. Scratch should have been dealt with the first season he made an appearance. They blew it then, and every attempt they've made to reintroduce the character since has been a fail for me. But I did like that they finally gave Reid something significant to do. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

True, @SSAHotchner.

It provides an opportunity to write a significant arc for my favorite character, but otherwise, Mr Scratch has been a big failure of a plot contrivance.

[katisha]

I enjoyed this episode.  For me, as a relatively new CM viewer (only started binge-watching from the start when I was ill last year), it felt a tiny bit more like the CM of old when the team all pulled together to help Reid.  But that's not saying much given the standards of S12 so far.

Sorry if this was already mentioned and I've just missed it, but did anyone else think that audio file Prentiss deleted of the cognitive interview will come back to bite the BAU's ass sooner or later?

[ReidFan]

i don't think she deleted it.

[Danielg342]

Two other nits to pick (in general) about this episode:

1) The writers fell for the "naturopathic doctor serial killer" conspiracy theory that's been thoroughly debunked. Perhaps I could buy that Tara Lewis believed the rumour and didn't bother fact-checking it, or that in the CM world it may have actually happened, but it still caught my attention.

2) I don't know why Rosa worked in Houston yet lived in Mexico. Do the CM writers not know that Houston is five hours from Matamoros? A bit difficult for Rosa to commute from Mexico every day. I suppose she could fly...but I don't think her paycheck would allow her to realistically do that.

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

After some ponderance earlier today, I find I have to agree with @Danielg342, about how the writers have really mishandled the opportunity that 'Mr. Scratch' represented as a villain.

Just in this last episode alone, if the vials of meds for Reid's mom are legit, why didn't Scratch plant illegal stuff in them to really twist the screws to Reid and make sure he's got so much more to fight for to keep from going to prison or staying out?

I came up with that on my own in a couple minutes, what's the writers' excuse?

Very true. I find that Hollywood writers in general- not just on this show- go for the "grandiose" and very rarely think about the logistics, and the thought of being "simple" just doesn't occur to them very much. They don't seem to realize that, as you've shown, a simple action can have profound and devastating consequences.

As for your drug idea specifically, as I understand, Reid's only defence there would be "I didn't know the vial had X in it". Which I think would be very difficult for him to prove. He'd have the vial in his pocket (meaning he can't deny possession), he wouldn't have had the opportunity to properly examine the vial until he crossed the border (if he ever got around to doing it) and the court would have to trust him at his word that the vendor (who's probably a shady guy himself) told him the drugs he was selling him were legit.

I mean, it's not like he picked up a vial at Walgreen's and it turned out to be cocaine.

[katisha]

2 hours ago, ReidFan said:

i don't think she deleted it.

Yes, that's the other possibility. 

[Willowy]

I think they are going to confiscate her phone before she has a chance to delete it. I just have a feeling of dread about it.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

1 hour ago, Franky said:

I think they are going to confiscate her phone before she has a chance to delete it. I just have a feeling of dread about it.

That is a very good possibility, but whatever causes the truth to be found out, its going to have consequences for both of them.

I'm actually more intrigued of where they go with the consequences for Prentiss.  Does she get demoted as team leader?  Kicked out of the BAU?  Even get some jail time for perjury/obstruction??

Oh wait, I forgot who writes for this show.  The consequences won't make much sense, either in definition or severity. 
[I'm not saying that I want to see PB kicked off the show (again) - just the opposite, actually - but hurts 'realism' if consequences aren't dealt with believably]

[ForeverAlone]

Based on Erica's interview, it seems pretty likely that the cognitive interview will come back into play at some point. And of course if that happens, it won't be a good thing, because that interview implicates Reid in many ways (or at least it doesn't exonerate him).

Yes, the whole  Matamoros/Houston angle for Rosa wasn't well thought out in my opinion. I think it is because the writers really wanted to have Reid caught up in an Mexican jail, so they had him continually crossing the border to get this mysterious drug (that he doesn't seem to know much about, but he seems to believe it would help his mother). BUT if they made Rosa only a Mexican citizen, there is no way the show could have had extradited Reid back to USA (I still don't think they can, but they provided a minimal justification why he should be tried in America and not Mexico). So they had to make her a dual citizen with some lines about how Reid met Rosa at the Houston clinic. Of course if Reid met Rosa in Houston, there is no reason she couldn't have given him the medication there, so there is no reason he would be in Mexico. But they seemed bound and determined to tell the Mexico angle, so they had to go this route that made no sense once examined. I'll reserve judgment until I see how this arc plays out, but right now, it doesn't seem like realism was thought out in terms of the story so far. 

[Autistic Queer]

Are there border guards on the US/Mexican border that someone regularly driving Matamoros to Houston would go through? If there are and the drug was illegal maybe they thought a white man, especially an FBI Agent is less likely to be stopped and searched. 

And at this point we've given it more thought than the writers. Having said that the time these guys have to write things in is incredibly tight, I imagine most watch their episodes and think "damn, I missed that" or "why didn't I put that in." 

[JMO]

Reid walked across, this time, maybe each time.  I've walked across the border in Tijuana a few times, but not in decades.  Back then, you were just waved in and out, but even then, the lines for crossing by automobile were very long and very slow.  The border patrol was obviously more concerned about the smuggling of people, or large quantities of drugs, than they were about whatever you could carry on your person.  Don't know if it's still the same.  If so, he could easily have walked it back to the States.  But, theoretically, so could Rosa, the American citizen.  It will be interesting to see if we get an explanation.

[ForeverAlone]

According to the BB personnel, nothing in those medication vials were illegal, so there is no reason that border guards would have confiscated the vials even if either of them were searched. Walking across the border to Matamoros just seems so silly on the face of it and frankly unnecessary if Reid was meeting up with Rosa in Houston. 

Considering the drug activity going on in the border cities, I can't see the border guards waving anyone through these days. Hell you need a passport to get into Mexico these days. 

I don't give the writers a pass on story details not matching up. They are paid good money to come up with believable stories and they have enough time to break them properly. This is the type of story arc that would need to be broken well in advance to make sure all the story details line up in all the episodes. 

[Danielg342]

Two and a half years ago, I walked across the border from Calexico into Mexicali. The Mexican border officials just waved me through, they didn't bother asking me for my passport (or anything else for that matter). I did have it out- just based on instinct- but they did not seem at all that interested in checking it. I also did not have much difficulty walking back into the United States at the same checkpoint (though they did ask me some questions and examined my passport).

Now, maybe it's because Mexicali isn't such a hotspot for trouble as Tijuana, Brownsville or El Paso (Mexicali is a nice city, even if the build quality isn't quite up to the same standards as they would be in the U.S., even in Calexico), but I can safely say that at least in some parts of the Mexican border, the officials there aren't too interested in checking some people out, at least.

As this relates to Matamoros, the only way it would make sense to me is if Rosa worked in Houston for a month on a temporary assignment (or just had to quit all of a sudden) before moving back to Mexico to care for her mother (I believe that was her story). Perhaps then her mother's care needs are so intensive that Rosa would barely have the time to cross the border, necessitating that Reid do it.

Of course, then the question becomes "why is Reid meeting Rosa at a motel?" If she's not giving Reid anything illegal she'd have no fears that someone is coming after her, which would, perhaps, make it more believable that a Scratchy would come after her.

Even then, why would the Scratchy risk killing Rosa when Reid is right there and thus risk Reid potentially catching him in pursuit? At least drug him with ketamine so that Reid would be fast asleep and the Scratchy could get away easily.

...but then, didn't Reid only have to go on his trip because Diana flushed the vials he had down the toilet? That would mean stalking Reid becomes that much trickier.

Which then means it would have been far easier for Rosa to have been a Scratchy all along and dupe Reid into bringing back illegal vials over the border. All it would take is one astute Border Patrol agent and Reid would be toast, and BP agents usually do notice someone crossing the border several times, usually because they're doing what Reid would have been duped into doing.

As for the writers, I understand what they do is very difficult and time constraints are what they are. However, three things need to be considered here:

1) The writers' scripts are supposed to be vetted and edited by higher-ups, just so there's less of a chance of mistakes. It's not like we're dealing with a self-published author or works of fan-fiction (not to disparage either, I just imagine that most probably aren't getting their work vetted by many different people before it gets published)- these scripts are supposed to go through many different processes of error-checking. So really big mistakes are inexcusable.

2) I would like to think, at the Hollywood level at least, you'd have writers who should at least know that their plot progressions need to make sense. Extraneous things like mistakes with the setting or a minor character's backstory you might give a pass to because they're not really supposed to be "noticeable", but if the hero or the villain is doing something that strains plausibility (or is downright impossible), that's harder to let go. When the main characters do something, we're supposed to notice it, so if the writing's off, we as an audience are thrown off.

3) As pointed out before, this is an arc, not just a standalone episode that could be easily "forgotten". I'll go one further- this was a planned arc, not just one that develops because the writers notice something happening. Therefore, I'd like to think the plot points would go through even more vetting and even more editing than your regular episode, because arcs are supposed to be the show's "highlights". A Monster of the Week flying from Houston to Matamoros without the capabilities or rationale to do so harms just one episode, a Scratchy relying on that to happen and doing so to put Reid in peril harms Mr. Scratch's storyline and Reid's, which is a much bigger blunder.

[ForeverAlone]

Now I COULD buy that Rosa was a Mr. Scratch accomplice and he killed her to prevent her from talking AND setting Reid up for murder. That would mean she lured him to Mexico on numerous occasions. Of course that has its own possible plot holes, like why so many trips to Mexico before Mr. Scratch puts his setup plan into motion? Otherwise I maintain that there is no GOOD reason for all of those trips to Mexico when Rosa could have easily have come to Houston. But there is still time in this arc for it all to be explained. Hopefully there is a good explanation for all of this. 

[Danielg342]

No love for calling Scratch's acolytes "Scratchies"?

I think it's appropriate, given he's a comic book villain at this stage.

I do agree there is time to make this all make sense, and Scratch killing Rosa to keep her from talking would actually make sense. I'll have to see how it plays out.

[Willowy]

Trust-building to get Reid to follow without question? Maybe Mexico created more hard-core repercussions for Reid? Don't know if they thought that deeply, but I've heard they began shifting plot as soon as Thomas was fired. For the whole arc. This is really big, y'all.

[SSAHotchner]

It really ticks me off that people here are better writers, or at least put more thought into the plots, than those who are being paid to write Criminal Minds. And when viewers call the writers out on these obvious flaws, the writers get all pissy on social media instead of doing a better job the next time they write an episode.

[Danielg342]

I hate to stir up feelings about Hotch, but one big thing that bugs me about Scratch is that there's nothing at all being made about how he drove the BAU's leader into hiding. That should be a pretty big achievement for a villain, even if the writers never actually planned it that way.

Yet, here are the writers, acting like a team losing its leader for the past 18+ years would just trudge along like nothing happened. There's not enough being made of the fallout (one thing would be that I'm sure Cruz would feel pressure to re-evaluate the BAU's performance in the aftermath of Hotch's exit), and I would figure that we should get a sense that Scratch is emboldened to strike at the BAU after he successfully got rid of Hotch and put the team on its heels with Tara's situation.

Seriously, this team should be reeling that now Scratch is destroying Reid...because he's been so successful at doing it before.

Yet...it's just another day in the office...

*sigh*

Edited February 21, 2017 by Danielg342
typo

[Droogie]

Daniel, this is an excellent point.  Right this second, I can continue to hope this will somehow come to fruition, although I'm bound to be disappointed.

[Bookish Jen]

So many of you have brought up such interesting ideas and thoughts regarding this episode that I hardly think mine is needed. However, I must say, a week after viewing "Spencer" I am still thinking about it and how it is affecting me. It really did pack a punch.

While watching “Spencer” I had to remind myself “it’s only a television show, calm down.” Yet, I couldn’t. Various forms of pop culture, whether they be movies, music, visual art or television, reflect, influence and are touched by our culture and society as a whole. They get us on a very cellular level. We see, listen and feel these artistic expressions not only as they are, but also, as we are. This episode, and Spencer’s arc regarding this horrific journey, will stay with me long after the final credits role.

Matthew’s performance did not ring one false note. Erica and Kirsten’s script was a master class. And every performance from the cast was par excellence.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bookish Jen

[senin]

Getting ready for tonight's episode, I rewatched Surface Tension and Spencer. I have to say that it was an emotional roallercoaster!!

I was trying to concentrate on some of the things I had read in this thread, about the story and so on,but MGG's performance got my attention and I couldn't think of anything else. Seeing him high (and frightened), listening to his constant "I don't know", "I can't remember", and then the process of becoming himself again, was so captivating. 

Note: I said in a post before that the quote Reid says is from the Leviticus, well it seems I got the wrong book, it is from Ecclesiastes, sorry about that. 

Another note: my son has decided that he has to watch Surface Tension today, right now. There we go again!! (not complaining, I don't mind watching again!!)

[zannej]

The discussion of the border guards reminded me that in addition to having the border guards, there are some places where they have checkpoints 60 miles from the border (I believe they are allowed to have them up to 100 miles from the border). Now, legally all they are supposed to do is ask people to confirm whether or not they are US citizens. They can't legally search a vehicle or confiscate property without permission of the owner. Unfortunately, the actual law is not being observed and there have been incidents of people having their windows smashed in, being tasered inside their own cars, and all sorts of violations-- many of which are being perpetuated against US citizens and not immigrants. But it seems that the victims of said transgressions are mostly minorities. Since Reid is a white male AND an FBI agent, they likely would just tell him to go right through. But Nadi/Rosa would probably have been stopped and harassed. So, her making the 5 hour trip each way makes even less sense.

[ForeverAlone]

Since Reid was traveling to Mexico on his personal passport, the border guards would not know he is a FBI agent. I can't see Reid flashing his FBI credentials at the border. The checkpoint at Matamoros is right on the border with the US and has a lot of traffic both ways. Which brings me to my second question. If Reid's main reason for his trips to Texas were to make his border runs, why the hell would he fly to Houston and THEN take a five hour bus ride to Brownsville, only to walk across the border? Why would he not fly into Brownsville, TX? I know I am nitpicking, but I do wonder why the writers went with some of the storytelling choices they did. 

[zannej]

3 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

Since Reid was traveling to Mexico on his personal passport, the border guards would not know he is a FBI agent. I can't see Reid flashing his FBI credentials at the border. The checkpoint at Matamoros is right on the border with the US and has a lot of traffic both ways. Which brings me to my second question. If Reid's main reason for his trips to Texas were to make his border runs, why the hell would he fly to Houston and THEN take a five hour bus ride to Brownsville, only to walk across the border? Why would he not fly into Brownsville, TX? I know I am nitpicking, but I do wonder why the writers went with some of the storytelling choices they did. 

Maybe to disguise that he was going somewhere close to the border? He had a reason to go to Houston that the team knew of and he knows that Garcia won't mind her own business. If she found out he was going to Brownsville she wouldn't keep her mouth shut and then Reid would be questioned about it by other nosy people.

[ReidFan]

exactly zannej :)

But still begs the question. Why was he carrying his FBI ID & passport if he was traveling on his personal? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

[backgroundnoise]

This supervillian Scratch is as big a drain on this show as Pelant was on Bones.  Lazy writing.

[Danielg342]

58 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

exactly zannej :)

But still begs the question. Why was he carrying his FBI ID & passport if he was traveling on his personal? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

It still also further begs the question that if Reid and Rosa both met in Houston and Rosa always went back to Houston, why couldn't Reid just get the vials in Houston? Why the need to cross the border?

The circles these writers created...

[ForeverAlone]

20 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

It still also further begs the question that if Reid and Rosa both met in Houston and Rosa always went back to Houston, why couldn't Reid just get the vials in Houston? Why the need to cross the border?

The circles these writers created...

That is the question I have been asking since last week. :) :) :) 

[Danielg342]

1 minute ago, ForeverAlone said:

That is the question I have been asking since last week. :) :) :) 

I think we've actually come full circle.

[zannej]

Yeah. It makes about as much sense as the private detective knowing that Maeve was going to be at that restaurant when it was booked under Reid's name around Zugzwang.

It's a gaping plothole that they did not think through fully.

[Mislav]

Despite the wonderful acting, I don't like this arc. I am really tired of the writers torturing Reid. It is getting way too cruel and unrealistic. One person can only handle as much. And I am honestly concerned that this will end with Spencer being killed off, incarcerated, or leaving the BAU. I know it is unlikely, but with Shemar Moore and Joe Gibson both gone within a year, I'm seriously concerned. And I can't stand Mr. Scratch. He was a great one shot villain but they have really ruined his character. First, by introducing him into a great episode ("Mr. Scratch"), then re-introducing him a year later and, as of then, dragging his name through (mainly) mediocre episodes. Second, by pathetically dumbing him down in order to explain Hotch's exit. Third, by acting like he is such a great elusive criminal mastermind when most of his crimes now happen off-screen. This also ruined his "creep factor" established in "Mr. Scratch". This is just awful, I'm sorry. If Spencer leaves too, there is no point watching. But even if he doesn't leave... this show just isn't the same, and not in a good way. Even season ten comes off as a masterpiece compared to this. At least everyone was there, and in a relatively good place-Aaron, Derek, Spencer... And, at the risk of sounding whiny, the quote at the end of episode 12x8 "Scarecrow" made me nauseaous.

[Droogie]

I am inclined to agree with you to a point.  I've lamented the lack of substantial Spencer Reid since the end of S5.  I'm riveted to this arc for the fact that Spencer is my favorite and Gubler is knocking it out of the park.  But it also fills me with dread.  And while I've wanted little more television-wise than to see more of Reid, I wanted it to mean the team relied upon him and his massive intellect, the way they used to (rather than seeing him written as a cliche and the butt of a joke), and maybe even that he had someone to go home to, and that he was starting to make a family.  Not just abject misery.  Maybe it will all be ok in the end, but how much more can he take?

[Hotchgirl18]

I do wonder how Hotch would've handled it! Like Droogie said, I'm still not over it. Hotch and Reid had a really good dynamic. Maybe if things didn't happen the way they did, I could be more accepting of the arc. But, nevertheless, it is interesting and I'm slightly curious to how it plays out. 

[K42]

This was one of my favourite storyarch's. I wish season 13 was better.

[idiotwaltz]

I am extremely fond of Reid’s passport photo. That’s all.