S04.E03: The Four Horsemen

[MostlyC]

Jaha leads Clarke and Bellamy down a road to possible salvation while tensions are on the rise in Arcadia and Polis.

 

Do you think we'll ever get an episode where no one dies?

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, MostlyC said:

Do you think we'll ever get an episode where no one dies?

[Primetimer]

Clarke and Co. search for a spacious refuge from the apocalypse.

View the full article

[piequinn35]

Wait.. they have an ipad with internet??

Woo nightblood rad-away ;)

[dippydee]

At least Murphy and Emori are going to join the main storyline for once. I need some Murphy snark after everything was such a downer in this episode.

Next weeks episode already looks terrible with the amount of focus on Jasper. Urgh

[Fireball]

Clarke's an idiot; she finally makes the list and than leaves it willy nilly where anyone can find it.

Spoiler

Obviously, that's not going to be a problem... 'Note Sarcasm'

 I'm also annoyed that she didn't cross her name off the list after Bellamy left.

Abby can not make tough decisions. Yes it's sad that the kid will die, but using your limited drugs on someone that doesn't have a good chance at living isn't the kind of thinking that is going to help the most people survive the coming five years. Now with Luna surviving it's a good thing they at least tried; I doubt Luna would be willing to do those tests if they hadn't tired.

Raven while I was totally on her side with the medicine and needing to have a plan when the time comes; I thought her whole you're good at deciding who to kill to Clarke was really low.  Exactly why is it only Clarke's responsibility to decide who lives and who dies? I guess because she's the chancellor.

So Octavia has a new name Skairippa after assassinating one person? That seems odd to me. I can totally see the grounders giving her a name if she had assassinated a number of people, but just killing one person doesn't seem to warrant getting the name "death from above".

Roan continues to be a huge disappointment. I came back because of him, but I'm ready for him to die and Echo to take over.  Also shallow note his crown is ugly and makes his face look weird.

While I love Murphy's snark, I'm not sure I'm interested in watching him worm his way onto the list.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Fireball

[MostlyC]

So, they can't irradiate the big cavern with the dead people and move in?

Why don't they use Luna's blood to make a serum/vaccine that will keep everyone alive?  

 

Romantic or not, I like it when Bellamy and Clarke are on the same side and working together.

[Fireball]

3 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

So, they can't irradiate the big cavern with the dead people and move in?

The cavern isn't radiation proof, and I guess they don't have time or the ability to make it safe.

4 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

Why don't they use Luna's blood to make a serum/vaccine that will keep everyone alive?  

I'm pretty sure that's what the tests are for.

5 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

Romantic or not, I like it when Bellamy and Clarke are on the same side and working together.

Me too.

[Isazouzi]

1 hour ago, Fireball said:

Clarke's an idiot; she finally makes the list and than leaves it willy nilly where anyone can find it.

So much word. Also I guess to be on the list, Clarke has to know your first and last names.^^

I'm fine with Bellamy not forgiving himself, and I wish Jaha would stop preaching all the time. "Your intentions were pure". Yeah right. Keep telling yourself that, Jaha. Of course he's the one who found out about the cult (on the internet????) I wonder if it was a crack at Scientology, with the mentions of levels you have to achieve. I guess Tom Cruise was inside that cave then.

Raven was in the right and Abby is not seeing the big picture anymore. Plus, her "the radiations aren't killing her, you are" or whatever was cruel and uncalled for. And wrong, as we saw later.

So Luna is the last nightblood AND the only one immunized against radiation? The nightbloods basically have the first version of ALIE in their systems, right?

[Rachel RSL]

I know she never had any intention of leaving him off but it still highly amused me that Bellamy didn't get on the list until #99. You'd think he would have been the 1st name she wrote down.  It would have been hilarious if she'd left him off entirely: "Sorry, I'm bringing Jasper. He has weed."

Speaking of Jasper, I really really wish the writers would fix what they did to his character because I don't know how much more Emo Jasper I can take. I mean, he knew a girl for like 5 minutes and suddenly decided life isn't worth living without her? I know first loves are hard to get over but come on! I want him to go back to the sweet, funny guy doing self-fives with Monty.

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

The nightbloods basically have the first version of ALIE in their systems, right?

They have nanites in their system that give them the ability to interact with the AI of ALIE 2.0.

[piequinn35]

Wait, Ontari's blood didn't make Clarke nightblood? sorry for silly question.

[CooperTV]

7 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Wait, Ontari's blood didn't make Clarke nightblood? sorry for silly question.

No,  nightblood is hereditary. Clarke could live through the transfusion on the "nightblood" because all Arkers are genetically modified to be universal donors and vice versa.  And also because bad science.

Clarke (or anyone else) could be injected with reverse-engineered nanites that are in nightbloods' blood, that would be another thing entirely. And also potentially a huge spoiler for the end of the season, maybe?

[piequinn35]

^ok thanks, well I guess Luna is the answer to their rad problem.

[shireenbamfatheon]

So if that one kill earned Octavia her new title, that totally means everyone knows she killed the ambassador, which can't realistically spell good news for the Sky People, can it? I have a really bad feeling someone is going to die as a result of Octavia's callousness and that it'll be Kane in Polis. Also, she's bordering on villain territory. This show is full of people who do horrible things, but Octavia looks like she's downright enjoying it and shows zero remorse. Even full-fledged warriors like Indra and Anya never came across as being this cold. I can't stand her. Girl just helped create a tyrannical rule and has no problems with it because it means she gets to kill some more. 

I'm so happy Raven is getting a storyline that isn't about her being physically tortured. I didn't have any problem with her line to Clarke, mainly because it didn't seem malicious unlike some of the stuff she said to her last episode.

Speaking of Clarke, she's been pretty tolerable these past two episodes, I just wish the actress would stop with the perpetual sad face. I can't stand it. One thing I didn't like was her crying about putting her name on that list. I can't think of any other character that feels as sorry for themselves as she does in almost every freakin' episode.

Why is Luna apologizing for anything? They got her husband and half her people killed by bringing A.L.I.E. to them. It's not like she's been living a life of luxury while the Sky People have been suffering? 

Abby's pissing me off as well. I totally agree with her decision to use the medicine and would have done the same in her position (I wouldn't make a very good leader), but it's the way she always pretends she has the moral high ground no matter how much she flip flops on stuff. 

Good on Jaha for trying, but his redemption talk with Bellamy totally comes across as him talking to himself. Say what you will about Bellamy, but at least he knows he fucked up. Jaha just seems like one of those really annoying people who hurt others and then go "it's ok now, because I just forgave myself." 

[shireenbamfatheon]

14 minutes ago, doram said:

Her crew were chipped when they went off-shore on a routine trip that had nothing to do with Clarke's visit. Basically, her husband & half her people would have been killed either way. 

1

We had a scene with Clarke and co. wondering how A.L.I.E. found them and then realizing they brought A.L.I.E. to Luna's people, followed by the others refusing to go to any more villages because A.L.I.E. would follow them there. It's acknowledged in-show as being their fault. Also, Jaha's the one who caused this, and he's just allowed to chill out back at their base after getting thousands of people killed.

The more I think about the list the more fucked up this whole thing seems. Clarke promised those people they would all survive, but now she's written up an extremely biased list determining who lives and who dies, while 400 out of those 500 people are being deceived into spending their last two months on building a shelter they'll be forced out of. Raven, Bellamy and Clarke are going about this the wrong way imo. They should do what they did on the Ark. Also, how exactly is Clarke deciding who gets to live? Does she personally know everyone at Arkadia and the skills they possess? Are only the most intelligent and skilled people being written up? By what criteria is Bellamy's name on that last? Which indispensable skill does he have? 
 

[Rachel RSL]

35 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

By what criteria is Bellamy's name on that last? Which indispensable skill does he have? 

Decision maker? As in: whatever decision Bellamy makes, do the opposite!

[thuganomics85]

Dammit, Clarke!  You seriously going to hide your list under the desk drawer?!  There isn't anywhere in your room that couldn't work as a better hiding spot?  Are you even trying?!  For all the time this show makes her look intelligence, they do something like that makes me question that assumption.  That really is a braindead move on her part.

Hey, Luna is back!  And apparently is immune to the radiation due to having Clarke's blood in her?  OK, then.  I guess they're going to try and find some way to whip up a cure.  Sucks about the rest of them, but I thought Raven was actually right to not want to waste the meds (even if she handled it with less then ideal tact), and Abby was being a dick when she basically claimed their deaths would be on her.  Way to play favorites, Abby.  Clarke sacrifices hundreds for the greater good, and you still support her.  Raven sacrifices a couple to let at least one hundred be capable to survive, and you loose your damn mind!

Curious to see how Murphy and Emori are going to try to get themselves in Abby's good graces in order to get spots.

Clarke, Bellamy, and Jaha's little trip ends up being a bust, but I doubt this is the end of this cult.  You don't cast John Pyper-Ferguson as their leader for nothing!

Indra has a daughter who is a Keeper of the Flame, and how has the key, while Octavia lies to Roan and tells him it was destroyed.  I'm sure this will end well!

Felt like a filler episode pretty much.

[Fireball]

5 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I'm so happy Raven is getting a storyline that isn't about her being physically tortured. I didn't have any problem with her line to Clarke, mainly because it didn't seem malicious unlike some of the stuff she said to her last episode.

I can't remember what did Raven say last week to Clarke? I vaguely remember thinking why is Raven being so malicious, but I honestly can't remember what Raven actually said. 

[CooperTV]

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Are only the most intelligent and skilled people being written up? By what criteria is Bellamy's name on that last? Which indispensable skill does he have? 

He's smart, he's a good leader people can relate to, he's a good tactician, he's a good person that wants to help individual people more than he wants to help "people" in general.

She also loves him and thinks he deserve the world, in case it wasn't clear from her previous "brief" encounters with that particular character... The fact that he doesn't think he deserves to survive is one of the reasons, probably, why she waited to add him to the list until he was too tired to notice or whatever.

1 hour ago, Fireball said:

I can't remember what did Raven say last week to Clarke? I vaguely remember thinking why is Raven being so malicious, but I honestly can't remember what Raven actually said. 

She said "Your father would be so proud"when Clarke lied to the Arkadians about the world ending and all of them surviving.

Edited February 17, 2017 by CooperTV
Forgot to add something

[piequinn35]

Who is the Chancellor now when Pike died? Kane or Abby or Jaha?

[CooperTV]

25 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Who is the Chancellor now when Pike died? Kane or Abby or Jaha?

Clarke, Bellamy and Raven? I'm honestly not sure but it looks like it??

[piequinn35]

The Chancellor has a "thing" (what do you call it?) I saw it before with Kane, he passed it to Abby one time. 

Where is it now? 

[CooperTV]

12 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

The Chancellor has a "thing" (what do you call it?) I saw it before with Kane, he passed it to Abby one time. 

Chancellor's pin or something. As I said, I'm not sure the Ark even has the official government anymore. And since Kane was a traitor and later appointed himself as the Ark ambassador, I'd say they ought to have a temporary governing body before the next election?

[ferretrick]

[quote]Reverting Clarke back to her Season 1 heteronormativity might not sit well with a particular segment of this show's audience. (The gay one.)[/quote]

Y'know....bisexuals exist. Putting Clarke/Bellamy back together is NOT "reverting her back to heteronormativity" and it doesn't invalidate her realtionship with Luna, any more than Luna invalidated what she felt for Finn. Clarke can be attracted to people of both sexes. To suggest otherwise is offensive, as is your condescending comment about how the gay audience will respond.

This gay guy is perfectly happy to see her paired with men or women.

[Nay]

2 hours ago, ferretrick said:

Reverting Clarke back to her Season 1 heteronormativity might not sit well with a particular segment of this show's audience. (The gay one.)

Y'know....bisexuals exist. Putting Clarke/Bellamy back together is NOT "reverting her back to heteronormativity" and it doesn't invalidate her realtionship with Luna, any more than Luna invalidated what she felt for Finn. Clarke can be attracted to people of both sexes. To suggest otherwise is offensive, as is your condescending comment about how the gay audience will respond.

This gay guy is perfectly happy to see her paired with men or women.

I read that in the review and was a little taken back by it, though not surprised,  I have seen that attitude a lot and it is offensive. Clarke isn't gay, she is bisexual, that is cannon and frankly its nice to see a bisexual lead.

Thankfully in the world of the 100 the gender of who you knock boots with really is the least important part of the relationship and seeing Clarke flow from one to the other is refreshing without the crappy sexual identity angst usually assigned to bisexuals on teen shows.  Clarke knows who she is sexually and if she ends up banging Bell then that doesn't make her any less bisexual in her mind or mine.

[Jack Shaftoe]

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By what criteria is Bellamy's name on that last? Which indispensable skill does he have? 

Does Karma Houdini count as a skill?

[shireenbamfatheon]

5 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Does Karma Houdini count as a skill?

Yeah, no. I'm going to disagree with the argument that Bellamy gets away with everything scot-free. I don't think any other character on this show has gotten so much criticism in-show for his actions as Bellamy does for killing the Grounder army (meanwhile no one cares that Monty and Bryan followed Bellamy every step of the way and are equally guilty). I get people are pissed at Bellamy and some even want him to die, but to pretend that he gets away with everything when it's a character arc that's extended to another season is inaccurate to what we've seen. Not to bring others into it, but what consequences did Clarke face for TonDC except a bad conscience or Lexa for abandoning the Sky People at Mt. Weather? Octavia for trying to kill Pike when they were fighting off an invading army? Even Jaha so far has faced zero consequences for bringing the apocalypse down on them, and Murphy got away with crippling Raven, killing a delinquent and hanging Bellamy plus deliberately lowering their chances of winning against the Grounders in season one. The only character who faced consequences proportionate to his actions was Finn. Bellamy was chained to a rock and beaten by his sister for something that wasn't in his control while everyone who supposedly cares about him watched. That's more than most characters on this show have suffered for their actions.

I like this show, but pretty much everyone has bordered on "awful human beings who maybe should not get to live" territory at one point or another. Maybe one day we'll stop acting like Bellamy's the only one who's crossed a line and doesn't deserve redemption when he and Kane are the only two characters in this show who actively try to atone for their sins while everyone else has accepted this is how things are now.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Yeah, no. I'm going to disagree with the argument that Bellamy gets away with everything scot-free. I don't think any other character on this show has gotten so much criticism in-show for his actions as Bellamy does for killing the Grounder army (meanwhile no one cares that Monty and Bryan followed Bellamy every step of the way and are equally guilty).

I don't care if Bellamy gets criticized for his crimes, the fact that he is alive is enough to classify him as a Karma Houdini. Other characters being or not being examples of this trope is irrelevant. I don't recall saying he is the only one. But if you really want to know, I don't like how some of the other characters got away scot-free either which is one of the main reasons I am no longer watching the show.

Quote

Bellamy was chained to a rock and beaten by his sister for something that wasn't in his control while everyone who supposedly cares about him watched. That's more than most characters on this show have suffered for their actions.

Why do people keep bringing that up as if it was some huge punishment or amusingly enough, a case of Octavia "abusing" her brother? It was a slap on the wrist and it was intended precisely for that - to give Bellamy some easy sympathy points without having to actually suffer any meaningful punishment.

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Clarke didn't send the bomb on TonDC.

She agreed to leave the place without alerting anyone in it it's going to be bombed. She's culpable in killing 300 people at TonDC that she justified later to Octavia as trying to protect Bellamy's mission in the Mountain.

3 hours ago, doram said:

Bellamy deliberately went out to murder an army that was sent to protect them because "this is our land now".

Pike, the official chancellor of the Ark, deliberately went out to murder an army that had been trying to kill all of them for months prior to them suddenly becoming innocent peaceful little angels. They were never innocent because the exact same army tried to wipe The 100 in season 1. The very same. And then they betrayed them at the Mountain, and their Coalition friends, Azgeda, killed and enslaved the Farm Station survivors. Lexa put a restraining order on all the  Ark's activities including living off the land and taking over the Mountain. They were going to starve because they didn't have enough food to left after Lexa and her peaceful army put the first blockade on them after Mt. Weather. I wouldn't consider an army that is set around my home to be peaceful or even possessing a potential to be peaceful. Killing is bad. Killing your oppressors? Eh. Whatever.

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why do people keep bringing that up as if it was some huge punishment or amusingly enough, a case of Octavia "abusing" her brother? It was a slap on the wrist and it was intended precisely for that - to give Bellamy some easy sympathy points without having to actually suffer any meaningful punishment.

Because it was abuse, not a meaningful punishment. Octavia abused him. He didn't deserve an abuse from a family member.

Edited February 19, 2017 by CooperTV

[Jack Shaftoe]

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They were never innocent because the exact same army tried to wipe The 100 in season 1.

Does that make it okay to kill them? "Well, they might break the peace, so we might as well go ahead and do a pre-emptive strike" doesn't really make anything okay, does it? Would it be okay for the grounders to kill all the Arkers now because of Pike's actions? I mean, at least the Arkers voted for Pike, nobody voted for Lexa or the Queen of Azgeda, yet Pike and Bellamy thought it was okay to murder them and steal their land anyway. And you have conveniently neglected all the occasions when the Arkers killed Grounders and made it sound as if it was one-way aggression.

Quote

Lexa put a restraining order on all the  Ark's activities including living off the land and taking over the Mountain. They were going to starve because they didn't have enough food to left after Lexa and her peaceful army put the first blockade on them after Mt. Weather.

First blockade? I can't say I recall anything like that. When did that happen? As I recall it, starvation only became a factor after Indra's army was wiped out. Pike's platform before the coup was all about how the grounders would attack very soon, he said nothing about starvation, IIRC. But even if I don't remember it correctly, the Arkers could have always, you know, moved. It's a sparsely populated world, after all. But they chose to wage a war they couldn't possibly win and if it weren't for ALIE's intervention were going to get wiped out. That's the kind of smart plan Bellamy is known for. Morality aside, it was suicidally stupid because of the overwhelming numbers of the opponents and the limited ammunition of the Arkers.

Quote

Octavia abused him. He didn't deserve an abuse from a family member.

He is a mass murderer and a war criminal, he deserves much worse. Maybe strictly speaking it was abuse but the way people describe it one would think it was a domestic abuse inflicted on Bellamy for no reason. If I hear one more time how heroic Bellamy was to take it without struggling (as if he weren't restrained, you know) I might actually vomit.

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Even with all that, how is Clark culpable for a bomb that Weather set off? At least to the same degree that Bellamy is of mass murder for 'just following orders'? 

Clarke is 100% culpable of the TonDC bombing because she positioned herself as the leader of her people in season 2. The fact that somehow it was Lexa's idea doesn't strip Clarke from being also at fault of 300 people being dead because they were in the wrong place in the wrong time. And coincidentally, the episode that this event takes place is called Rubicon, which means that in some part that was the decision that was point of no return for Clarke. It led her to the finale event, foreshadowed in the first episode of season 2, where she, Bellamy and Monty had to kill another 300 innocent people, including small children, people Bellamy, Jasper and co knew personally and who were trying to help them all way through, to save how many Arkadians exactly?

And there's also the conversation between Kane and Abby that Clarke made this decision "because she grew up on The Ark. She learned what to do from us", which is a chilling realization for Abby and for the viewers, that Clarke definitely went too far. Lexa's words "Victory stands on the back of sacrifice" certainly applicable here as well. Clarke sacrificed what, at this point, 600+ innocent lives to save a number of her own people, and Lexa tried to rally the troops via TonDC bombing she was perfectly aware of.

And the narrative and the writers never punished her or Lexa or anyone else on the show, for that matter, as much as it still continues to punish Bellamy who was indeed following orders of their leader.

But again, he wasn't the only one who was there, he just decided to do that so anyone else didn't have to. He agreed to it as a preemptive strike. Smart decision, considering that Lexa didn't have power to support her claims of protecting Arkadians, because her entire Coalition despised her for various reasons and majority of them wanted SkaiKru dead yesterday. The moment Lexa was dead, which would happened sooner or later because she was weak leader and her Coalition was based on her killing everyone who disagree with her rule, the Arkadia was toast because next ruler would order the same army to wipe Arkadia from the face of this earth.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

But again, he wasn't the only one who was there, he just decided to do that so anyone else didn't have to. He agreed to it as a preemptive strike. Smart decision, considering that Lexa didn't have power to support her claims of protecting Arkadians, because her entire Coalition despised her for various reasons and majority of them wanted SkaiKru dead yesterday. The moment Lexa was dead, which would happened sooner or later because she was weak leader and her Coalition was based on her killing everyone who disagree with her rule, the Arkadia was toast because next ruler would order the same army to wipe Arkadia from the face of this earth.

The entire coalition didn't despise Lexa, if they did she wouldn't be leading them in the first place. Azgeda was an exception, not the rule. Sure, there were plenty of disagreements because the clanss had never been united before but when push came to shove all other clans seemed willing to support Lexa against Azgeda (though, of course, she had to defeat Roan first). Also, I don't recall neither Bellamy's, nor Pike's motivation being along those lines. They thought that Lexa was going to order the attack, rather than being afraid of what he successor might or might not do. Not to mention that this "smart" pre-emptive strike did little to actually cripple the combat capabilities of the coalition and if Lexa hadn't suddenly suffered from plot induced stupidity, would have united the entire coalition to rally behind her to destroy the the Arkers. Few things can unite a country/coalition as a treacherous attack. Basically, even if I am to accept your argument that Lexa was a weak ruler, the very last thing Pike and Bellamy needed was to back her into a corner where she had to either order an all-out attack on the Arkers or be deposed. If their famous pre-emptive strike was capable of eliminating the military threat, posed by the coalition, sure, then it would have made sense, in a cynical, war-crime, kind of way. But it didn't. It was a sort of a Pearl Harbor type of attack, where one side gains a fleeting advantage, at the cost of pissing off the other enough to commit all their resources to defeating them.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[Gulftastic]

Among all the other suspensions of disbelief I have to do when watching this show, a big one this week was how nice Clarke's handwriting is. I'm a leftie like her, and mine is terrible.

And I have no problem with Clarke being with a guy again, just not sodding Bellamy. Saying that, I'm hoping for her and Raven. I like it when they argue. There's a spark there.

[shireenbamfatheon]

Well said, CooperTV.

Others are being brought up in a conversation about Bellamy because he's being called out as somehow being the ultimate irredeemable evil in a tv show where everyone has sacrificed innocent people under the guise of it all being for the good of their own people. The culling served to save the others on the Ark, TonDC was to save the the 48 delinquents (on Clarke's part), Lexa's betrayal was to save her own army despite her chanting "blood must have blood" while her army was still reeling from the deaths of their loved ones, the 300 Grounder army was to save the Arkadians etc. The intentions and motivations have been the same every time no matter how much people want to reframe the context of the murder of various groups of people because they like the ones who have committed it. Lexa breaking her treaty and leaving the Arkadians to be tortured and killed isn't somehow more morally justifiable because she was trying to minimize the loss on her part; that's the exact same reasoning Pike and Bellamy had for killing the Grounder army. This episode we had Octavia help create a tyrannical rule and prop up a tyrant, practically with a smirk on her face, yet fandom discourse still revolves around how terrible a human being Bellamy is and how he no longer deserves to live and how unfair it is that he faces no repercussions for his actions, when Bellamy is one of the two people in the show who has been shown to consider his past actions and work hard towards atonement when others are going "maybe there are no good guys" and "maybe this is who we are now" whenever they screw up, like it isn't a choice.

Also, what Octavia did was abuse. Beating up her chained up brother out of anger for what happened to Lincoln, when Bellamy had already switched sides at that point and offered to help free him? That's abuse. There would be no question about it if the situations had been reversed. 

 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

This episode we had Octavia help create a tyrannical rule and prop up a tyrant, practically with a smirk on her face, yet fandom discourse still revolves around how terrible a human being Bellamy is and how he no longer deserves to live and how unfair it is that he faces no repercussions for his actions, when Bellamy is one of the two people in the show who has been shown to consider his past actions and work hard towards atonement when others are going "maybe there are no good guys" and "maybe this is who we are now" whenever they screw up, like it isn't a choice.

And more so this season, when completely psychotic Octavia is preemptively killing people who didn't yet do anything and cutting of random people's heads with showing zero remorse, and that's hailed as incredibly badass female empowerment. But Bellamy, who always has his heart in the right place, has doubts, has compassion and struggles with guilt to the point of clear suicidal ideation at the point, has remorse about every death he committed or he helped committed because he thought it'd help his people to survive, is irredeemable abuser that is worst than all other characters that killed with no remorse or self-reflection.

9 hours ago, Gulftastic said:

Saying that, I'm hoping for her and Raven. I like it when they argue. There's a spark there.

I hope Raven has more common sense. And also think she deserves better than falling in love with a person who killed her boyfriend (who was her entire family) and later got together with a person who tortured her and order to kill her family. But knowing this show, I wouldn't be surprised. Friendship is magic. Love at the flimsiest pretence is forever.

[Jack Shaftoe]

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Lexa breaking her treaty and leaving the Arkadians to be tortured and killed isn't somehow more morally justifiable because she was trying to minimize the loss on her part; that's the exact same reasoning Pike and Bellamy had for killing the Grounder army.

I still don't see how this whataboutism is relevant but okay. I will play. Just because somebody thinks the horrible things they are doing are for a good cause doesn't make it so.  Many, if not most, atrocities in history were committed by people who were convinced they were the good guys. Also, refusing to help your allies isn't  the same as treacherously attacking them. Both are considered despicable, don't get me wrong, but the latter a lot more so than the former.

Furthermore, I can't agree with putting Lexa and Bellamy in one category, morality-wise. One is a Karma Houdini, the other paid with her life for trying to be a peacemaker. One united all the clans for the first time and went against the collective punishment attitude of her people by punishing only Finn, rather than all the Arkers and even giving them a chance of deposing Pike before attacking them in retaliation for their unprovoked atrocity. The other killed guards when sneaking into Polis (and the "brutal savages" inexplicably let him go, by the way, you think Bellamy would let go a grounder who sneaked into the Arkers camp killing a few guards in the process?), killed unarmed envoys, had no problem killing people in their sleep and indulging in ethnic cleansing until it turned out his sister might be next, then suddenly it was sort of, maybe, not so great idea.

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has remorse about every death he committed or he helped committed because he thought it'd help his people to survive

Yes, killing those envoys was totally because he thought that would help his people survive. Not because they were pissing him off and he had a gun while they did not.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[kingshearte]

On 2/19/2017 at 2:54 PM, Gulftastic said:

Among all the other suspensions of disbelief I have to do when watching this show, a big one this week was how nice Clarke's handwriting is. I'm a leftie like her, and mine is terrible.

A friend of mine way back when was a leftie, and she had lovely handwriting. It is possible. And Clarke is an artist, remember, who presumably draws with her left hand. No reason to assume that hand wouldn't be competent at writing, too. 

I also know plenty of north-paws with terrible handwriting.

[AudienceofOne]

On 18/02/2017 at 5:36 AM, ferretrick said:

Reverting Clarke back to her Season 1 heteronormativity might not sit well with a particular segment of this show's audience. (The gay one.)

Y'know....bisexuals exist. Putting Clarke/Bellamy back together is NOT "reverting her back to heteronormativity" and it doesn't invalidate her realtionship with Luna, any more than Luna invalidated what she felt for Finn. Clarke can be attracted to people of both sexes. To suggest otherwise is offensive, as is your condescending comment about how the gay audience will respond.

This gay guy is perfectly happy to see her paired with men or women.

Preach. Clarke is bi. No issue there with her and Bellamy. I personally don't believe they'll do it this season because of the awful Lexa fridging. They'll find her another girlfriend first. I try not to judge myself for remaining a Clarke/Bellamy shipper even though he's the worst. I just fricking love them when they're on the same page.

Jaha and Jasper can take a long dirt nap any time now as far as I'm concerned.

On 20/02/2017 at 0:56 AM, CooperTV said:

Clarke is 100% culpable of the TonDC bombing

This comes up all the time. It's verging on being off topic at this stage. But for the thousandth time, Clarke did not launch the bombs on TonDC. She is therefore NOT culpable for the bombing. If she'd started evacuating TonDC, every single person would now be dead because Bellamy would have been exposed and Mt Weather would have drained every Arker. The only thing Clarke is 100% culpable of is saving all their lives. Again.

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

But for the thousandth time, Clarke did not launch the bombs on TonDC.

She and Lexa didn't warn the alliance at TonDC that's bombing is coming, and 300 people were killed. Clarke Griffin is 100% culpable for those people's deaths. They didn't push the button, but they are at fault. She and Lexa are murderers.

[Lady Calypso]

It's nice that the show is trying to show that everyone is responsible for their own actions. Each character has done something supposedly irredeemable, so it is hard to root for all of them when they all make difficult and often sacrificial choices. I think it's tough to say who is worse than another. I'm working my way back to Bellamy's redemption because he's still trying to make up for his choices in season 3. He has a ways to go, since he did murder hundreds out of fear and not because of anything greater, but most of these characters have come back from mass murder...which is really, really sad to say. Intent and context is everything. 

Which is why I'm taking a step back to look at Octavia's actions; a good point has been made that she's very cold and distant right now about her kills, which does go back to her grief with Lincoln's death. I think that's the major motivation for her attitude recently. Perhaps I am being a little too soft with her actions because she's technically not caused a massacre like so many characters have. She's killed to survive, except for her last couple of kills (Pike and then the ambassador). I don't think Octavia's crossed a line yet, at least not a line that many characters have drawn way past the normal line of morality. 

It was good to see a little bit more into Indra; the introduction to her daughter felt a little random and contrived.

Nice to see Murphy again. He really has come around from how he acted back in season 1...though I realize that Bellamy was very harsh on him in season 1 when he was just as bad. It took Murphy a lot longer to earn redemption with the main characters; I don't think he's fully earned it back when he more than has earned it. I'm not sure why Murphy isn't forgiven for his past crimes and everyone else is. 

I appreciate that Raven is really getting a story not really about her injury or any other physical torture. It's why I'm not frustrated at angry Raven. I'm just glad it's something different. Though her putting all of the pressure on Clarke for that list, and then to yell at her about the list? It really can't fall just on her; the blame should be equally shared. 

Seriously, Jaha, shut up. He really needs to die at this point for me. I have not liked his character since early season 2....and I didn't like him all that much to begin with. What I appreciate about Bellamy is even through his shitty choices, he knew they were shitty. I mean, it didn't make them right in any way, but he's trying to atone for them, and it's a work in progress. Jaha's just a jackass who doesn't get it. He brought ALIE in and got so many people killed. He hasn't shown an ounce of regret...ever. He's also caused thousands of deaths pre-series. So yeah, not understanding why he still has to be around. 

Nice to see Luna again. I guess Nightblood is the key to saving more people. Well, we'll see.