S01.E15: Public Enemy No. 1

[ketose]

Shows like this week's were about minimizing damage rather than stopping Flynn. The irony is that Flynn doesn't care how much he changes events unrelated to Rittenhouse. Killing Ness and keeping Capone alive were means to an end, but would have enormous effects on history. If the Time Team doesn't do anything to "fix" Flynn's interference, at some point he should screw up time enough where he'd return to a future he wouldn't recognize.

So I have to wonder if Lucy's journal is giving Flynn a blueprint of what he already did so that he can do it again. Maybe Lucy wrote it in a future where Rittenhouse is gone, her sister is somehow alive and all is right with the world.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, ketose said:

So I have to wonder if Lucy's journal is giving Flynn a blueprint of what he already did so that he can do it again. Maybe Lucy wrote it in a future where Rittenhouse is gone, her sister is somehow alive and all is right with the world.

Now that's an interesting thought. I don't know that I believe that these showrunners would do it, but it does seem like a great ending to this show.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Netfoot]

13 minutes ago, ketose said:

If the Time Team doesn't do anything to "fix" Flynn's interference, at some point he should screw up time enough where he'd return to a future he wouldn't recognize.

Perhaps.  But I'm struggling to remember what changes have occurred as a result of Flynn's time meddling, or the actions of our three heroes.  The only consequence of 15 episodes of time-meddling is the disappearance of Lucy's sister and the improved health of her mother.  Oh, yes, there was an extra James Bond book or something, right?  What else?  

Sure, history has been changed several times.  The early death of Robert Stack in this episode alone, for example.  But what effect have any of these historical changes actually had on the present day?

[ketose]

38 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Perhaps.  But I'm struggling to remember what changes have occurred as a result of Flynn's time meddling, or the actions of our three heroes.  The only consequence of 15 episodes of time-meddling is the disappearance of Lucy's sister and the improved health of her mother.  Oh, yes, there was an extra James Bond book or something, right?  What else?  

Sure, history has been changed several times.  The early death of Robert Stack in this episode alone, for example.  But what effect have any of these historical changes actually had on the present day?

That's kind of the point. They're preserving the timeline, but it sort of enables Flynn to keep messing with things because the present stays enough the same that he can continue where he left off each time. What if his carelessness had more consequences? Those actions would stop himself.

[KaveDweller]

18 hours ago, henripootel said:

Worth noting too that most all of these 'solutions' required a heavy dose of contrivance by the writers.  I mean who knew that the Lone Ranger guy could induced to help, or would be capable of tracking James in timely fashion.  What were the odds that Capone's brother could be inveigled to act, that Lucy was right that Flynn would see it necessary to attack the others besides Lincoln, that the letter was absolutely necessary to properly frame the Alamo incident (rather than simply the thing that did so in our timeline), or that Houdini would actually turn out to be pretty helpful (to say nothing of willing to help).   Lucy may be a font of (suspiciously) broad and accurate historical info, but it's the writers who're doing most of the heavy lifting here. 

Well it is contrivance by the writers, but it's a TV show so everything is a contrivance by the writers. The way they choose to implement the contrivances is through Lucy's knowledge. Without that they wouldn't be able to have those other things happen. 

13 hours ago, henripootel said:

The counterpoint being - Lucy has those Wikipedia pages in her head.  Her version of history includes her having a sister, Booth being the assassin of Lincoln, and a million other 'facts' that are no longer true.  Let's call them 'alternative facts' (because that phrase never got anyone in trouble), but Lucy's version of history is no longer the version of history in the current timeline.  Well, she's probably spot on for periods older than anyone has time-travelled to, but anything after that are suspect, even for events nobody tried to change.  People going back in time re-runs the 'tape' of history so-to-speak so the least likely thing by far is that everything is exactly the same as it was in our version.  Big things probably remain largely the same, so Pearl Harbor likely still happened, but exactly who died might change a little and the effects downstream may be significant. 

The best thing for them to do is have the Eyeball download wikipedia so they can check it if they need to.  Might even be fun, if Lucy checks it and finds out that the history she remembers keeps changing on her.  Lucy'd still be useful because she knows what questions to type in but she of all people should know her recollection is not to be relied on. 

I think it would be funny if Lucy started being completely wrong about something. Or if she made some statement to her mom about history being the old way, and getting a really weird reaction from her. I liked that in the past couple episodes they had her reading history books to see how the new version compared to her memory, but we should get more than that.

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

My point is despite her vast knowledge she has not been able to prevent the accidental or deliberate killing of various historical figures (Elliot Ness being the most recent example) which should have had a profound affect on the timeline. And since none of these radical changes to historical people and events have made the slightest difference, it doesn't seem like they need an "historian" on the trip at all if the goal is to take out Flynn. The team would be better served by replacing her with another assassin/agent.

I've also pointed out before the absurdity of the NSA or the CIA having to recruit a civilian for such a job. There are surely plenty of experienced field agents in government agencies with as much historical knowledge as Lucy, and better training for field work.

The problem with this show, or really the concept of the show, is that the team has to fail in order for it to continue.

But I think what they've presented to us, is that none of them are able to prevent the killing of historical figures because Flynn is better than all of them and isn't afraid of changing anything or of collateral damage. So I agree, they can't stop him if they are more worried about protecting history and would have a better shot by just sending more assassins. But they have been charged with stopping Flynn AND protecting history, and I think they'd be failing (even more) in the later if they had no historian. This makes me wonder why they were charged with saving history. This was the order of the US Government when Mason got them involved, but now I'm wondering why he didn't just go right to Rittenhouse.

An assassin with a history background would certainly be ideal.

Edited February 18, 2017 by KaveDweller

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The team giving itself joke names when it lands somewhere is a start, but there's so much more the writers could do with this. I wonder what they're afraid of.

Rittenhouse? (Sorry!)

Wyatt's mentioning of fate makes you wonder if there's a concept of a "fixed point in time" (a la Doctor Who) in this universe. Are some events truly destined, so they'll work out more or less the same way, no matter what the time travelers do? Like, Lincoln always gets assassinated. The Hindenberg always goes up in flames. Bonnie and Clyde always die in a hail of bullets. The exact circumstances change, but the main event still happens. The trick for the time travelers is making sure it happens in a way as close to the original timeline as possible, with as few extraneous casualties as possible. But it would still happen somehow, with or without their intervention.

I guess that would mean that Ness was actually a minor player, since his death didn't change the timeline too much. Someone else probably stepped in and played a similar role, and that person is the one who became part of popular culture. That may be the character Robert Stack and Kevin Costner played.

[CooperTV]

People who said the Team Eyeball was going to be misplaced in time, that's why the costuming was as all wrong, were right! My righteous indignation about the writers in that particular matter was misplaced. Not that they particularly proved themselves with everything else, like plot and character development and human logic but oh well... I must say, I liked Ness's snark about Rufus's sweater.

This episode was messy and full of elaborate schemes that simply should have to be there at all. I'm all for the show dealing with some non-general knowledge historical facts but that was some convoluted stuff going with Robert Hart (the lesser Capone??) and Lucy's attempts to manipulate him into arresting his brother. What would the reason for him arresting Al Capone? They barely brought him in with the tax evasion, and the brother was supposed to lecture him and arrest him because being a mobster is bad (and because he drank scotch in front of him)? Also, I'd say I expected better from the Team Eyeball but I really didn't. Capone should have being dead on arrival the second they saw him in that office, but we had forced Capone family drama instead. BTW, that was some waste of Misha Collins. What was the point?

Wyatt is so crazy, I adore his craziness! Those Rufus/Lucy and Lucy/Wyatt hugs were amazing. Thank you, show, for doing one thing right.

Jyia was MVP of the episode. Solid work and solid snark. Yay! Mason designed the machine to detect acts of terror but it sees everything? Okay calm down finch.

Oh, Garcia Flynn seeks redemptio.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

[waving feather]

10 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Mason designed the machine to detect acts of terror but it sees everything? Okay calm down finch.

Oh, Mason wishes he is Finch. He probably should start talking to his time machines. ;-)

[Camera One]

Quote

Oh, Garcia Flynn seeks redemptio.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Do the Writers seriously think that a single short scene in the Church would make him more sympathetic or more complex?  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

They also had Mason back-flopping like a seal.  The last few episodes, he was oh-so-sympathetic and now he's hungering for global surveillance?

Are we supposed to believe Lucy's father really does care about her?  Why isn't he threatening Rufus anymore?   Why didn't they bring in a new engineer to be trained to be the pilot?  

Is Jiya the only competent person in the whole facility?  Who does her job when she has a day off?

It's this type of simplistic character development which prevents this show from being any more than a mildly engaging popcorn flick.  And 80% of that is due to the chemistry the 3 lead have (in particular the charisma of the guy playing Rufus) and 20% is due to costuming and set design.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Camera One

[ketose]

23 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

The problem with this show, or really the concept of the show, is that the team has to fail in order for it to continue.

But I think what they've presented to us, is that none of them are able to prevent the killing of historical figures because Flynn is better than all of them and isn't afraid of changing anything or of collateral damage. So I agree, they can't stop him if they are more worried about protecting history and would have a better shot by just sending more assassins. But they have been charged with stopping Flynn AND protecting history, and I think they'd be failing (even more) in the later if they had no historian. This makes me wonder why they were charged with saving history. This was the order of the US Government when Mason got them involved, but now I'm wondering why he didn't just go right to Rittenhouse.

An assassin with a history background would certainly be ideal.

The show fails in multiple respects because there's no long-term or big picture thinking. "One problem at a time" should be the motto of the show. Lucy, and to a lesser extent, Rufus, are on the mission to save history. Wyatt was there to stop Flynn. In the first few episodes, Flynn either took one of them hostage or had other leverage to keep from being executed. Then the show dropped that and they just stopped bothering to kill Flynn. Now, each of them has killed a human being as a result of not making killing Flynn priority number one.

The only way this could have worked (I assume the show is done for) is if Team Eyeball and Flynn worked together to stop Rittenhouse and destroy the time machines. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone with power that could be trusted with that kind of technology.

[Sparger Springs]

On 2/14/2017 at 8:45 AM, jcin617 said:

If they were so adverse to killing Flynn's mother, all they had to do is abduct her and bring her into the present. 

Or they could've found the dad kidnapped him and forced a vasectomy on him.  I always thought Flynn's history should've changed when they saved the little brother. The life choices one makes with and without a child or often different.  She might not have moved to France and met the Dad. He could've been the kind of man that had no interest in raising another man's kid.  That was a big risk.

[legaleagle53]

31 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

Or they could've found the dad kidnapped him and forced a vasectomy on him. 

Sure.  Because assault and battery by way of a forced sterilization is only a tiny bit less of a crime than outright murder.  He's still alive; he's just been permanently mutilated, that's all.

Sorry, but "the end justifies the means" doesn't cut it any more for Rittenhouse than it does for Flynn.

[Dowel Jones]

Or just pony up $10,000 or so and give it to dad with a plane ticket to Australia or someplace.

[bros402]

4 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

Or they could've found the dad kidnapped him and forced a vasectomy on him.  I always thought Flynn's history should've changed when they saved the little brother. The life choices one makes with and without a child or often different.  She might not have moved to France and met the Dad. He could've been the kind of man that had no interest in raising another man's kid.  That was a big risk.

Maybe they had less information on Papa Flynn.

[ketose]

The problem with this speculation is that every idea is a good idea, but none of them could succeed without ending the show. If Wyatt shot Flynn in the first episode, Rittenhouse would get the time machine and the series would be over. There's no reason Wyatt's original plan to stop the serial killer's parents from hooking up shouldn't have worked, except that killing the guy made for a more dramatic episode. The FIRST time they time travel changed Lucy's whole life (no sister, healthy mom, fiancee). The next dozen trips compounding multiple changes over hundreds of years apparently did jack squat.

If the writers had a long term plan for the show, it hasn't been evident for a while.

[Camera One]

Yes, the problem is ultimately in the setup/premise for the show, that the team was meant to kill or to stop Flynn, the big baddie.  The Writers had ample opportunity to change this structure or format, and there were a few times where they could have, but they always reverted back to the same old formula.  So clearly, they still don't see it's a problem for the team to fail episode after episode, nor do they have any inkling that viewers could become sick of it after a few weeks (much less 15 weeks).

Edited February 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Free]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Yes, the problem is ultimately in the setup/premise for the show, that the team was meant to kill or to stop Flynn, the big baddie.  The Writers had ample opportunity to change this structure or format, and there were a few times where they could have, but they always reverted back to the same old formula.  So clearly, they still don't see it's a problem for the team to fail episode after episode, nor do they have any inkling that viewers could become sick of it after a few weeks (much less 15 weeks).

Yup, even the 'cliffhanger' at the end of episode 10 with Flynn kidnapping Lucy went nowhere and was so easily resolved by the next episode with no tension at all, we all knew nothing would happen to either character or any of the core characters.

Quote

The show fails in multiple respects because there's no long-term or big picture thinking. "One problem at a time" should be the motto of the show. Lucy, and to a lesser extent, Rufus, are on the mission to save history. Wyatt was there to stop Flynn. In the first few episodes, Flynn either took one of them hostage or had other leverage to keep from being executed. Then the show dropped that and they just stopped bothering to kill Flynn. Now, each of them has killed a human being as a result of not making killing Flynn priority number one.

The only way this could have worked (I assume the show is done for) is if Team Eyeball and Flynn worked together to stop Rittenhouse and destroy the time machines. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone with power that could be trusted with that kind of technology.

Pretty much, other than trying to drag out the Rittenhouse as the shadowy organization, it's pretty clear that it'll be stuck to the formula episode after episode.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Free

[Dowel Jones]

20 hours ago, ketose said:

The only way this could have worked (I assume the show is done for) is if Team Eyeball and Flynn worked together to stop Rittenhouse and destroy the time machines.

Or they could both get the time machines to the day that the idea was pitched to the network, and have a stern talk with them.  The prohibition of travel within your own lifetime wouldn't hold, because they didn't actually "exist" yet.

[dubbel zout]

I don't think killing Flynn ends the show. There's still Rittenhouse to deal with, though of course we'd have to know what it's specifically trying to do. And stopping Rittenhouse wouldn't end the show, either, if the writers decided that the team has to fix the history that changed when they were chasing Flynn.