Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

They also note that Littlefinger has influence over her; that doesn't negate the earlier stuff, it's a complicating factor.

It is a very complicating factor. It does not negate it, but it makes it much more complex that simply say: "she is very good at playing the game of thrones". A player plays a game with "pawns". Then we discover the player is at the same time a "pawn" himself/herself.

In some way, the writers are telling us two things at the same time:

A) X is a good player

B) X is still a pawn

A+B together means that to say "X is a good player" is a very relative statement because those words are part of a context.

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Wouldn't it be kind of on the nose for both Arya and Tyrion to give away their endgames in fairly obvious fashion in the very same episode, though? D&D aren't exactly known for their subtlety, but still.

The key word here is "obvious". Obvious to whom? We are used to look for clues in every scene about stuff. But the 90% of the audience does not do that. It means it is possible the writer included the real endgames of two characters without fear of many people noticing that. In fact, we are not even sure those are the endgames.

[OhOkayWhat]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Aside from that, Tyrion's dream of owning a vineyard is particularly bizarre,..

 

 

5 hours ago, nikma said:

It is not bizarre at all. You are speaking too much about the logistics of vineyards, but what that line meant was that he want acceptance,

Nikma, I agree with you about this.

 

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As Tyrion himself admitted a few seasons ago, he's irresistibly drawn to power politics..

It does not even need to be a vineyard. Perhaps it will be fields with apples or pears.

Also it is possible that one of the reasons the writer included that scene is to show us he is slowly changing. Of course he is still doing politics and all that stuff, but maybe this is a little sign that he will change more in the last season

 

On Saturday, February 04, 2017 at 5:32 PM, nikma said:

Arya - sailing west of Westeros with Sandor

Sansa - Lady of Winterfell

This. And you are not the only one who think this is Arya, Sansa and Sandor endgame. It is hard to predict, but right now, it makes a lot of sense within the narrative.

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

I don't understand why everything that makes sense is rejected by some people because it is "predictable". It si "predictable" because it makes sense. 

Remember: you can't control what others do, you can only control what you do. If you've got a crystal ball vision that makes sense to you, stick with it, but keep an open mind.

 

On 2/4/2017 at 0:00 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

On 2/4/2017 at 11:07 AM, FemmyV said:

Ah. I am operating under the assumption that's not always going to remain the case.

Do you mean that eventually Sansa or Arya falls in love and marry? If it is years later and they are old enough to make those decisions, that is a different case then. In that case Sansa and Arya are making freely their own decisions to marry.

Love may or may not have anything to do with it. As S07 begins, they will both be old enough to make such decisions, and I can't imagine Jon or Bran forcing it on them. ATM, Arya's still chasing after her list, so I wouldn't look for anything until S08 - end game.

I am not invested in "West of Westeros," for a few reasons.

1: Arya's been trying to get back to her "pack" for several years. Now that she's finally about to, I don't see her walking away to go exploring the day after the dust settles.

2. "West of Westeros" was a lie she pulled out of her ass, rather than tell Lady Crane that she was on her way to Westeros to wreak vengeance on Walder Frey. For irony's sake, I don't mind entertaining the possibility, but don't give it more than a 25% chance of happening.

3. The relationships between the Wolves names and their Stark sibling fates. Grey Wind, Ghost, etc... Nymeria indicates the possibility that Ned was right from the beginning: Arya could very well wind up a Queen.

Now, Arya has already received one ... not a proposal, but a notice of intent. And though she walked out of the room rather than address it, she didn't say 'no,' either. Gendry is absolutely one possible future for her to get with. Another is Jon. There has been so much spec on this, so much laying out of arguments elsewhere online, I don't feel the need to go into it. Then you have the first draft possibility of Tyrion, which I don't see at this point, but remain open to, especially since Arya's first real line in the show was, "Where's the Imp?"

Lastly, not likely, but I'll keep an open mind to Arya and Jamie for the reasons I've already written, and add: especially if Brienne has some tragic end. After Jon and the Hound, Jamie is the most likely male on the show to accept Arya's masculine traits and penchant for combat violence.

[Eyes High]

53 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Love may or may not have anything to do with it. As S07 begins, they will both be old enough to make such decisions, and I can't imagine Jon or Bran forcing it on them. ATM, Arya's still chasing after her list, so I wouldn't look for anything until S08 - end game.

I am not invested in "West of Westeros," for a few reasons.

1: Arya's been trying to get back to her "pack" for several years. Now that she's finally about to, I don't see her walking away to go exploring the day after the dust settles.

2. "West of Westeros" was a lie she pulled out of her ass, rather than tell Lady Crane that she was on her way to Westeros to wreak vengeance on Walder Frey. For irony's sake, I don't mind entertaining the possibility, but don't give it more than a 25% chance of happening.

3. The relationships between the Wolves names and their Stark sibling fates. Grey Wind, Ghost, etc... Nymeria indicates the possibility that Ned was right from the beginning: Arya could very well wind up a Queen.

1. Arya's biggest attachment, in the books at least, is to Jon. I agree that if Jon's still in the picture, she would be more reluctant to desert him, but 1) he may not be and 2) if he is more or less happily settled in the endgame and if there's a Lord/Lady of Winterfell that isn't her, Arya would likely get restless before long.

2. Even if it was a lie in context, it could still be a nod to Arya's endgame (even if I tend to doubt that the writers would coyly spoil Arya and Tyrion's endgames in the same episode). 

3. The problem with the Nymeria comparison is that Nymeria wasn't just a queen. She led an expedition west to a new land (well, new to her at any rate) and never returned.

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Now, Arya has already received one ... not a proposal, but a notice of intent. And though she walked out of the room rather than address it, she didn't say 'no,' either. Gendry is absolutely one possible future for her to get with.

I assume you mean "You wouldn't be family. You would be 'milady.'" I believe the writers have explained that line as Gendry meaning that Arya would always be Gendry's social superior, thus "milady," not that he would only want to be with her on romantic terms.

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Another is Jon. There has been so much spec on this, so much laying out of arguments elsewhere online, I don't feel the need to go into it.

If the writers can successfully sell Jon/Arya with Jon powerfully attracted to Dany and possibly conceiving a miracle baby with her with seven episodes left, then I'll salute them. It's not impossible, of course; Arya and Jon exchange a powerful glance or something after a time jump post Dany's death, and another time jump shows them happily married. Not impossible, but tough.

To be fair, GRRM has always been very clear about always having known the endgames for Jon, Arya, and Tyrion. The original outline says 1) the main five will live through the series and 2) Jon and Arya's mutual passion will torment them until Jon's parentage is revealed. Adding it up, it seems as if GRRM planned at one point for Jon and Arya to end the series together. However, the whole Jon/Dany hooking up in Season 7 throws a wrench into the theory that Jon and Arya will still end up together in ASOIAF or GOT.

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Then you have the first draft possibility of Tyrion, which I don't see at this point, but remain open to, especially since Arya's first real line in the show was, "Where's the Imp?"

Arya/Tyrion would be the one endgame pairing that would legit blow everyone's mind. That would be a crazy, jaw-dropping twist. I don't even think I've seen a single thread on Westeros.org discussing that possibility, which should tell you how unexpected it would be. With that said, the fact that even no one on Westeros.org is talking about that idea gives one a notion of how outlandish the idea is.

In the original outline, Tyrion was madly in love with Arya, fueling a deadly rivalry with Jon (that seems to have been shuffled to Ramsay in ASOIAF, along with Outline Tyrion burning Winterfell), but that love for Arya went unrequited, and in the original outline, all indications are that Jon and Arya get together and live happily ever after (while Tyrion, I assume, deals with it). 

I can't imagine Tyrion ending up with his (ex?) wife's sister, or Arya ending up with her sister's (ex?) husband, unless of course Sansa dies and they somehow bond over that. I think the closest thing we'll ever get to Arya/Tyrion was Mercy getting molested by Bobono in TWOW. 

The other thing is that it's true that Arya asks after the Imp in 1x01. However, there's also the next line, where Sansa impatiently shushes her with "Will you shut up?" It could just as easily be a neat bit of dramatic irony given Sansa's later marriage to Tyrion, or even foreshadowing that Tyrion will end up with Sansa in the end.

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Lastly, not likely, but I'll keep an open mind to Arya and Jamie for the reasons I've already written...

There's fic for it...and that's all I'll say about that.

57 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Also it is possible that one of the reasons the writer included that scene is to show us he is slowly changing. Of course he is still doing politics and all that stuff, but maybe this is a little sign that he will change more in the last season

I really don't see how the vineyard speech is some sort of great insight into Tyrion's character as opposed to foreshadowing from the writers. Of course he's lonely; Tyrion's always been lonely. Of course he's sad that he doesn't have any friends; Tyrion has always been keenly aware that the only pleasant company he's ever kept he's paid for the privilege (with the exception of Tysha in the books), which has been clear in the show for quite some time. We don't need a speech from the show writers where Tyrion wistfully dreams of inviting his closest friends to an exclusive gathering to learn that Tyrion is lonely; that's always been abundantly clear. 

When I said the vineyard dream was bizarre, I meant from Tyrion's perspective. He's sensible enough to know that his dream of owning a vineyard is a dumb pipe dream completely at odds with his other aims and his current trajectory, so why even bring it up? It's as if Jon said out of the blue that when all this is over, he'd like to go to Dorne and lie on the beach. Understandable, surely, but a bit bizarre.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

9 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I am not invested in "West of Westeros," for a few reasons.

1: Arya's been trying to get back to her "pack" for several years. Now that she's finally about to, I don't see her walking away to go exploring the day after the dust settles.

2. "West of Westeros" was a lie she pulled out of her ass, rather than tell Lady Crane that she was on her way to Westeros to wreak vengeance on Walder Frey. For irony's sake, I don't mind entertaining the possibility, but don't give it more than a 25% chance of happening.

3. The relationships between the Wolves names and their Stark sibling fates. Grey Wind, Ghost, etc... Nymeria indicates the possibility that Ned was right from the beginning: Arya could very well wind up a Queen.

Do not get me wrong: if Arya endgame includes staying with her family it will be nice. But as part of a "bittersweet ending", I suspect she will stay for awhile with them and after that, she will go in a "Bruce Banner" journey. She will return to her family, but we will not know how long she will be away.

I do not see a reason to lie to Lady Crane.

If the leaks about Nymeria are true, it means we do not know if the fate of the direwolves are a narrative clue that the writers give us.

 

9 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Love may or may not have anything to do with it. As S07 begins, they will both be old enough to make such decisions...

We actually do not know their real age in the show. We can do some math, but we cannot be so sure about it. We do not know Gendry age either.

About the hipothetical husband possibilities, I will start saying not even Gendry (the most popular Arya ship we can find in the internet, it seems) looks like he will be Arya's husband in the show. Because if that is true (and therefore he will be a big part of her endgame), I need to ask myself: why the writers did not include Gendry references in Arya's storyline in the last seasons (Season 4, 5 and 6 )?

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

About the hipothetical husband possibilities, I will start saying not even Gendry (the most popular Arya ship we can find in the internet, it seems) looks like he will be Arya's husband in the show. Because if that is true (and therefore he will be a big part of her endgame), I need to ask myself: why the writers did not include Gendry references in Arya's storyline in the last seasons (Season 4, 5 and 6 )?

As long as both characters in the pairing are alive in the show, the ship still has a chance. It's too early to write off Gendry/Arya or Sandor/Sansa yet, in my opinion. Those two characters have had interactions in previous seasons and a prior relationship (of sorts) to build off. Gendry and Arya (or Sandor and Sansa) could reconnect in Season 8. The writers pulled a similar trick with Jaime and Brienne, after all; they went a few seasons without mentioning each other, but once they reunited it was all cow eyes and sexual tension and Bronn spelling out how much they wanted to bang each other. 

I have my doubts as to Arya and Sansa winding up with Gendry and Sandor (respectively) in the end, but the show could do some sort of brief romance tragically cut short by war type thing. With that said, with Jon and Dany's newfound torrid romance, and what I assume will be the resolution to Jaime and Brienne's love story, the writers may be hesitant to start drumming up other pairings during the war against the WWs. On the other hand, if Arya/Gendry and/or Sandor/Sansa are going to be endgame, the writers have their work cut out for them if they're going to make those pairings credible.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The writers pulled a similar trick with Jaime and Brienne, after all; they went a few seasons without mentioning each other...

Actually the case of Brienne and Jaime is different for some reasons. I will mention one of them: the continuity.

- Jaime and Brienne: scenes together in season 2, 3, 4, scene about their relationship in season 5, scene together in season 6.

- Sandor and Sansa: scenes together in season 1, 2, and almost nothing about them in season 3, 4, 5, 6.

- Arya and Gendry: scenes together in season 1, 2, 3 and nothing about their relationship in season 4, 5, 6

If you say there is still a chance they include Sansa/Sandor or Arya/Gendry romance in the show, I will said (as I said before in other comments) yes, you are right, there is always the chance they will do that. But the big question remains there:

If they had the opportunity (and they had it) why they did not include scenes about their relationship within those seasons?

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

44 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Actually the case of Brienne and Jaime is different for some reasons. I will mention one of them: the continuity.

- Jaime and Brienne: scenes together in season 2, 3, 4, scene about their relationship in season 5, scene together in season 6.

- Sandor and Sansa: scenes together in season 1, 2, and almost nothing about them in season 3, 4, 5, 6.

- Arya and Gendry: scenes together in season 1, 2, 3 and nothing about their relationship in season 4, 5, 6

If you say there is still a chance they include Sansa/Sandor or Arya/Gendry romance in the show, I will said (as I said before in other comments) yes, you are right, there is always the chance they will do that. But the big question remains there:

If they had the opportunity (and they had it) why they did not include scenes about their relationship within those seasons?

Sloppy writing? It's explained a lot before with the show. I agree that Jaime and Brienne were separated for fewer seasons than Sandor and Sansa will have been (two seasons versus four, five if you count Season 7 going by leaks), but Sandor and Sansa also had an oblique reference to their relationship during their separation just as Brienne and Jaime did. Sandor bitterly says to Arya that he should have raped Arya's "pretty sister" Sansa, so at least he'd have "one happy memory." So far, Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa are tied on that score.

Nor am I overly swayed by the fact that when Brienne is telling Sansa about her encounter with Arya that the Hound is never mentioned. The writers have a habit of dropping plot points with no mention for an extended time only to pick them up again when they're good and ready. They might be "saving" the mention of the Hound until Sandor and Sansa properly reunite.

I know you didn't mention this, but the other argument against SanSan ever becoming canon in the show (and by extension the books) is that their relationship was played down in the show in Season 2, when they were sharing scenes. I do admit that the writing for Sandor and Sansa's relationship in Season 2 seemed awfully perfunctory and toned down compared to the books, but they still included a few one-on-one Sandor scenes (including the deleted 2x03 scene) and hit most of the major character beats (the Hound giving Sansa his cloak, saving Sansa during the riot, offering to help her escape, etc.). However, we don't know why it was toned down. Maybe they wrote it that way because Season 2 was a more or less faithful adaptation of ACOK and whatever you think of SanSan, their relationship is an important part of Sansa's storyline in that book. Maybe they weren't sure what GRRM was going to do with Sandor post-AFFC and wanted to hedge their bets in case SanSan turned out to be a thing. Maybe they knew SanSan was going to be a thing in canon down the line but balked at the prospect of romantic tension between the two of them given the age difference. It's too early to say.

According to the leaks, Sansa and Sandor are alive at the end of Season 7. The ship's not dead until one of them is.

I agree Arya/Gendry is even flimsier than SanSan in the show, but Arya/Gendry was always a weaker pairing with less textual support in the books than the big two (SanSan and Jaime/Brienne). If you buy that Jon/Arya is going to be a thing in the books, Gendry was only ever really a substitute for Jon in any event, sort of like Alys Karstark and Jon.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

I'm still going with:

 

King Tyrion ( That dude gets a ton of time ruling)

Queen Sansa( ymbq)

Jon at the wall ( Needed to protect from the white walker threat)

Arya QOTN ( either that or they go with the each killing she performs strips away apiece of her soul and she eventually loses her stark identity and becomes nobody).

Dany- Sacrafices herself at the end. (House prophecy comes true).

Davos- Hand of the king

Varys- resumes his post as the master of shadows

Jaime- head of the kingsguard, finally gets a decent sized entry in the book.

I'll post more as the predictions come to me.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sloppy writing?

I have a problem with the "bad writing" argument. It is just like a giant box where you can put anything you want:

-They totally are writing X/Y romance in the show

-What? No way! If they are doing it, then explain to me why did they write this plot or that scene

- Well, it was just bad writing.

Or

-They totally are not writing X/Y in the show

-Then why did they include those scenes in the season?

-Well, I guess it was bad writing

We can use the "bad writing" argument to support A and the opposite of A too. We can support anything.

That is the reason that kind of argument does not work for me.

 

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

(two seasons versus four, five if you count Season 7 going by leaks)

Brienne and Jaime are separated only the season 5.

 

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

but Sandor and Sansa also had an oblique reference to their relationship during their separation just as Brienne and Jaime did.

About that specific scene we have the director himself talking about it 3 times. And from his words that scene seems to be really much more about Arya and Sandor than about Sansan.

And I think 80-90% of the audience take Sandor's horrible words like they are the truth. And they do not sound romantic at all.

 

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

They might be "saving" the mention of the Hound until Sandor and Sansa properly reunite.

Even if that was the intention of that odd scene (I doubt that) and they wanted a scene where a Sansa finds he is the person Brienne was talking about, it still does not answer why they did not include another scene about their relationship. A scene the 90% of the audience understand it is about Sansa and Sandor. And the interesting thing is they had opportunities to do that in season 6.

 

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

but they still included a few one-on-one Sandor scenes..

It is also important to notice the scenes they did not include. Sandor telling Sansa about Gregor and his own face. Instead it is Petyr who talks about it.

Does Sandor himself finally talks about it with someone?

Yes, he does. He talks about it with Arya. And he talks with Arya two times.

In my opinion, that is very telling about their narrative decisions.

Edited February 7, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

On 2/4/2017 at 4:52 AM, CofCinci said:

Jon dies in the big battle. I'm interested to hear if you all think he dies before he learns if he is a father. 

Cersei dies by Jamie's hand. We can probably all agree on that.  Jamie then redeems himself in the big battle - sacrificing himself for someone. Maybe his brother? Maybe for a Stark?

Brienne and Davos probably die in the battle too.  They would want it that way.   I think we'll get a passionate kiss between Brienne and Jamie too before their deaths.

Arya goes West with her Wolf. Tearful goodbye with her sister. At this point their relationship is solid and sisterly. Sansa doesn't want her to go but understands.  Sansa remains at Winterfell, if it survives, with her partner Sandor. If the site was destroyed, we'll catch a glimpse of it being rebuilt. 

Brann either dies in battle or becomes a tree - or both.

If the Wall is also rebuilt, I could see Bronn up there in a leadership role. Perhaps Davos too if he survives.

Dany rules KL with Tyrion as her hand and Sam as a Maester.   Series ends with her telling her baby or toddler about the story of ice and fire before quick cut to some new dragon eggs. 

I think I disagree with most of these assertions and it's mostly because they're all cheap. 

Jaime x Brienne kissing before they die? Does that sound like something GRRM would write? Bad sex is one thing. Movie-level romance is another. 

 

Anyways I doubt Brienne is going to die and I don't think Jaime is going to get the chance to prove the hero or rather I think he's going to shut the door for that route when he chooses to murder Cersei and Robert Strong slays him afterwards.

Davos isn't a warrior. He's likely to survive to the end.

There's AGOT foreshadowing to Arya dying at the end in the midst of winter.

Bran is likely to become the King in the North after Jon dies and I have a suspicion that he might be set up for bigger things politically speaking.

No need for a Wall if the Others are destroyed for good.

There won't be a KL to rule. Chekhov's Wildfire is going off.

Thats a cringe-inducing ending though. I don't think Jon or Daenerys are going to make it. I don't think Tyrion will even make it. 

[WindyNights]

On 2/6/2017 at 10:24 AM, Oscirus said:

I'm still going with:

 

King Tyrion ( That dude gets a ton of time ruling)

Queen Sansa( ymbq)

Jon at the wall ( Needed to protect from the white walker threat)

Arya QOTN ( either that or they go with the each killing she performs strips away apiece of her soul and she eventually loses her stark identity and becomes nobody).

Dany- Sacrafices herself at the end. (House prophecy comes true).

Davos- Hand of the king

Varys- resumes his post as the master of shadows

Jaime- head of the kingsguard, finally gets a decent sized entry in the book.

I'll post more as the predictions come to me.

Eh. Well I guess this is show endgame speculation. 

 

But if they're still trying to recreate the ending of the books: 

 

No King Tyrion unless it's King of the Westerlands. Westeros loathes him and he has no real legitimacy to Westeros.

Queen Sansa is only possible if Jon steps down, she marries or Jon dies. 

Arya's character arc isn't a political arc. 

Why would Jon go back to the Wall? He quit the NW and took the KITN position.

Okay I see Daenerys dying. 

Davos as Hand of the King? Yeah, this seems unlikely. Stannis likes him a lot but as Tyrion's Hand? Nah. I mean that and KL is going to blow up. Will there be a King/Queen of Westeros in the end?

I'll have to extrapolate from book Varys' story but Varys is an antagonist on par with LF. He's a dead man walking.

Jaime is going to die. See: his book dream in ASOS right before he goes to rescue Brienne.

[ParadoxLost]

On 2/3/2017 at 3:22 PM, Advance35 said:

I know there has been speculation that there won't be an Iron Throne when all this is over and that is the one outcome I am positive WON'T happen.  I think there will definitely be a supreme ruler when all this is said and done.  Whether that's Dany or Jon, I couldn't say, but I think both of them together would be to "and they lived Happily Ever After." 

I'm on the flip side of this.  I keep coming back to the question of how do you definitively end a series about constant jockeying to sit the Iron Throne.  You get rid of it.

I think they will beat the Others but the cost will be high and the survivors of the existing houses will retreat and rebuild.  I don't think anyone that has the pedigree to sit the Iron Throne will survive the fight.  Dany and Jon will die.  Jamie and Cersei, also dead.  

I also wouldn't be surprised if they somehow did a narration of many years into the future to demonstrate that all of this becomes legends with the details lost in time and that future generations are repeating the pattern of seeking to overthrow whichever House unites the kingdoms again.  Basically, the BSG this has all happened before and will happen again ending.

Other than running out of "good guys" to kill, I think they've backed off on killing the protagonists as much as they did early on to lull the audience into a false sense of belief that there will be some form of a "Happily Ever After" even if it isn't perfectly happy.

If someone manages to become Supreme Leader it will be someone truly annoying who hasn't "earned" it and everyone that has even a mild argument that they did "earn" it will be dead.

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I also wouldn't be surprised if they somehow did a narration of many years into the future to demonstrate that all of this becomes legends with the details lost in time and that future generations are repeating the pattern of seeking to overthrow whichever House unites the kingdoms again.  Basically, the BSG this has all happened before and will happen again ending.

Unless Bran survives and has the last POV with visions of the future beyond the end of ASOIAF, there won't be a flashforward epilogue. With that said, I think there was a passage in the books that was very similar to "all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again," so I would imagine that part of the bittersweet ending will be a hint at future problems. 

As for the argument that there will be no Iron Throne in the end, GRRM has said that he knows who will sit on the Iron Throne in the end, and while GRRM does play coy or refuse to answer fans' questions about future plot points, he doesn't tend to lie or mislead with his answers.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

On 2/7/2017 at 8:35 PM, WindyNights said:

Eh. Well I guess this is show endgame speculation. 

 

But if they're still trying to recreate the ending of the books: 

 

No King Tyrion unless it's King of the Westerlands. Westeros loathes him and he has no real legitimacy to Westeros.

Queen Sansa is only possible if Jon steps down, she marries or Jon dies. 

Arya's character arc isn't a political arc. 

Why would Jon go back to the Wall? He quit the NW and took the KITN position.

Okay I see Daenerys dying. 

Davos as Hand of the King? Yeah, this seems unlikely. Stannis likes him a lot but as Tyrion's Hand? Nah. I mean that and KL is going to blow up. Will there be a King/Queen of Westeros in the end?

I'll have to extrapolate from book Varys' story but Varys is an antagonist on par with LF. He's a dead man walking.

Jaime is going to die. See: his book dream in ASOS right before he goes to rescue Brienne.

Sorry it took so long to respond.

People hate Cersei too and she's currently queen.  As for legitimacy, he's the uncle to the last two Kings and the brother of the the current ruler. He has a claim.

Sansa is married if she chooses to recognize it. Even if it's just for the politics of it.

Arya's arc is about being a Stark. One of the perks of being a Stark is being loved by the north. If her other siblings are busy elsewhere, it makes the most sense for her to finish as QOTN.

Jon would go back because he realizes that he's needed there. Likely to oversee the building of the new wall and to ensure whatever evil lives beyond the wall doesn't return.

I think there will be a king's landing at the ending. This show is called Game of thrones. Which likely infers that the person who sits on the throne at the end is important. As for Davos being Tyrion's hand. We've seen that Davos likes working for people who inspire him and the show has shown us that Tyrion's pretty good at inspiring people.

Varys is hard to tell. As of right now, he's served his purpose, he's one of the more expandable characters. I'm more just rooting for him to somehow survive and see the fruit of his labors.

As for Jaime, you're right I got carried away. Even if we don't use the book. One can always use the scene where he's talking about "dying in the arms of the woman that he loves."

[FemmyV]

Maybe I just don't like Davos,* but I'm having a really hard time picturing him a a good person to have as Hand for the Iron Throne. Tyrion has provided a great model: you've got to be one of the smartest people in the room, if not THE smartest, to figure out what others want; you've got to be ruthless when necessary, generous when it will get you further. And you've got to clean up the king's/queen's shit.

Davos, bless his heart, refused to see Stannis' shit as Stannis' ... instead he blamed everything on Melisandre. And though, yes, it was kind of ruthless to want to kill her once he'd gotten what he wanted out of her - a revived Jon Snow - I'm not so sure I'd want to get rid of someone with the potential to be THAT handy.

The Iron Bank of Braavos probably wouldn't be that thrilled to see him walk through their doors again, for that matter.

Bottom line, yes, Davos is a lovely man, but for Hand, he gets on his high horse and misses the forest for the trees ... too many times.

 

*actually, I like Davos most of the time. Just not when he gets moralizing.

Edited February 10, 2017 by FemmyV

[Oscirus]

To be fair, they say that you usually have a good king or a good hand but rarely both.  My only reason for putting Davos as hand is because there's no other place, I can think of for him that would fit the story we're being shown. He seems to always find his way into being someone's right hand man.

[GreyBunny]

Regarding the fate of throne, I think the quote in question is, "There will be a few people sitting on the Iron Throne before the end."   That leaves open the possibility that the throne itself might not survive (maybe melted into a ball of goo by dragonfire), or it would be rendered meaningless at the end.  

I think the five major endgame characters are Jon, Dany, Bran, Arya, and Tyrion.  

The show had Bran leave for Winterfell but I'm not convinced it will happen in the books.  I still think there's a possibility he'll just become a tree.

When Jon is resurrected he won't be completely alive.  He'll be undead to some degree and he'll have to be to effectively lead the fight against the Others.   I think Coldhands is a remnant of the Last Hero's band of friends, one that is undead and was left to range the lands north of the wall for eternity.  I think Jon will have a similar fate.  The Others will be gone for good and the wall won't be rebuilt. 

I haven't decided what to do with Dany or Ayra yet.

After the wars are fought and winter has gone Tyrion will finally get what he wants: Casterly Rock.   But then, one day, he discovers he's lost feeling in one of his toes...

Edited February 11, 2017 by GreyBunny

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

After the wars are fought and winter has gone Tyrion will finally get what he wants: Casterly Rock.   But then, one day, he discovers he's lost feeling in one of his toes...

We learn in Season 7 that in the show universe greyscale, even somewhat advanced greyscale like Show Jorah's, is easily curable, and I doubt if Tyrion's supposed to get greyscale in the end in the books that the show version of the character would be any different. Show Tyrion didn't get the talk about how once exposed, he'd never be safe from getting greyscale. Furthermore, in the show, it seems one is only endangered when an afflicted person touches you with a greyscale-covered piece of skin; all anyone said in the show was Jorah telling Tyrion "Don't let [the stone men] touch you!" In the fight that ensues, the stone man only ever grabs Tyrion's boot; there's no skin to skin contact. There was no mention of greyscale being communicated through swallowing infested water, as is clear in the books. Show viewers would safely infer from the show that because Show Tyrion escaped being touched directly, and because he didn't contract greyscale at the same time as Jorah, he's safe.

Tyrion's bittersweet ending tempering his enjoyment of Casterly Rock is more likely that the woman he loves is forever lost to him. Maybe that was where GRRM was going with the initial Tyrion/Jon/Arya love triangle. Jon and Arya happily pair off at the end now that they know they're not siblings, and Tyrion never loves again or what have you.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

I suspect there will be a "Humankind Last Stand" scene. Humankind will survive. Where the "last stand" will happen? I do not know. Riverlands or maybe King's Landing, I guess.

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

The show had Bran leave for Winterfell but I'm not convinced it will happen in the books.  I still think there's a possibility he'll just become a tree.

I think that's unlikely.  He'll return to Winterfell and use the Winterfell heart tree; Bran's connection to Winterfell is more strongly established in the narrative than any other character.

[GreyBunny]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We learn in Season 7 that in the show universe greyscale, even somewhat advanced greyscale like Show Jorah's, is easily curable, and I doubt if Tyrion's supposed to get greyscale in the end in the books that the show version of the character would be any different.

D&D are making up their own stuff at this point and have done things that GRRM specifically said wouldn't happen in the books and miss the point of the kind of story GRRM is telling. Other than the broadest of strokes, I don't consider what they do to be spoilers of the books.  D&D love Tyrion so I wouldn't put it past them to give him a happier, fanservice ending.  So far in the books Tyrion contracting greyscale hasn't been ruled out.  I would be disappointed if GRRM were so lazy as to make dragonglass an easy cure for greyscale when it appears he is setting up the disease to serve narrative purposes that do not include finding convenient cures.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

D&D are making up their own stuff at this point and have done things that GRRM specifically said wouldn't happen in the books

Sure, but D&D have consistently stated that they're sticking with GRRM's ending. That they have done things that GRRM has said wouldn't happen in the books does not negate that.

Quote

Other than the broadest of strokes, I don't consider what they do to be spoilers of the books.  

I disagree. There are a lot of spoilers for the books in the show, but most of them are by omission: who is left out of the show, who gets killed off, and what seemed like crucial elements of the book plot being omitted or changed.

Quote

So far in the books Tyrion contracting greyscale hasn't been ruled out.

I don't think that's a strong argument: a lot of things haven't been definitively "ruled out" in the books which the show has definitively established--either directly or by omission--will never happen: Jon and Dany becoming bitter enemies, Arya staying with the FM and never returning to Westeros, Bran remaining stuck in the cave, Jon staying dead, Shireen living to a ripe old age, Tyrion riding Viserion, Aegon being the endgame king, etc. 

Quote

I would be disappointed if GRRM were so lazy as to make dragonglass an easy cure for greyscale when it appears he is setting up the disease to serve narrative purposes that do not include finding convenient cures.

I have no doubt greyscale will cause a great deal of trouble in ASOIAF for certain individuals, in the Aegon storyline for one, but I think it's a stretch to assume that it will cause trouble for Tyrion in the end when the show has ruled it out.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

Yea I think Jorah' s grey scale cure will feature prominently into either this season or the next.

[sjohnson]

The only logical endgame is the White Walkers win, big. There are prophecies but they basically are a deus ex machina where the deus is merely quoted instead of speaking in their own person. It is entirely possible for a deus ex machina to serve as a thematically valid conclusion. But, despite the many miracles in the show, somehow everybody is supposed to be a modern secularist/practical atheist, except for the occasional villain. 

An illogical endgame, albeit a formally self-consistent one, is the Bran did it all theory, where Bran causes all major plot actions by time traveling and messing with people's minds. But we don't really know Bran. We don't even know if he loves Meera.

[YaddaYadda]

The show will do what the show will do. And there will likely be a huge war with the Others. I think the only reason we're getting the Jon reveal on the show is for everyone in Westeros to know that there's a legitimate contender since they've brought up next to nothing regarding the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy about the PtwP, although I guess it's something that can still be done in seasons 7 or 8. Show wise. Cersei will likely die and if she dies, so does Jaime. I think Dany might end up dying or decide that what she really wants is a normal/regular life and embrace that. Like others have said, if the leaks are legit, which they seem to be, there seems to be a clear signal that Dany and Jon doing the deed will result in a child. If there's a child, then said child might be important to the endgame. My question is, will there be a time jump between the end of season 7 and the start of season 8? 

The books though, history is happening but in reverse if that makes sense? I don't think there will be an Iron Throne to sit. I think the 7 kingdoms will be 7 separate kingdoms the way they were before Aegon's conquest. I think there's going to be a smaller version of Dance of the Dragons between Dany and Aegon who is probably not the real Aegon anyway. And I don't think the war with the Others will go down the way the show will write it either. It just seems like there might be a "diplomatic" solution at the end of that. 

[whateverdgaf]

23 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Cersei will likely die and if she dies, so does Jaime.

I think people take Cersei's quote about living together, dying together way too seriously. Jaime's character has relevance beyond his relationship with Cersei, his bond with Tyrion and Brienne, his command over the Lannister forces. In the books he has steadily grown distanced away from Cersei and although the show is taking a different path; Jaime having not found out about Cersei's infidelities and the death of Myrcella naturally pushing her into into his arms, the end result will be the same and I doubt that will be dying alongside Cersei. I'm not even convinced he has to die at all.

And Cersei doesn't really have a reputation about being right about these things.

[whateverdgaf]

On 12/02/2017 at 6:07 AM, Oscirus said:

Yea I think Jorah' s grey scale cure will feature prominently into either this season or the next.

I wonder if his grey scale will cause an epidemic or something, which will be blamed on Daenerys and cause the people of Westeros to hate her.

[ElizaD]

Benioff:

Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. I kind of wish that there were some things we didn’t have to spoil, but we’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on. . .and that’s what we’re going to do.

I believe the showrunners when they say the big things will be the same as in the ending GRRM has planned for the books he quite possibly won't ever finish writing. Some of the stuff the show does can be very frustrating, but even if on the way to the ending Show Cersei has a miscarriage and Sansa is raped, which I don't think (but of course can't be sure) is going to happen in the books, I am sure that the show will spoil whether the character lives or dies, whether she's the endgame queen/lady or not. Someone like Sandor might be a minor enough character that GRRM hasn't yet decided what to do with him, but he has to know what is the fate of the realm: if there's still an Iron Throne when the show ends and Character X is accepted as the monarch, that's absolutely what would happen in ADOS if GRRM ever published it.

[Eyes High]

On 2/12/2017 at 1:07 AM, Oscirus said:

Yea I think Jorah' s grey scale cure will feature prominently into either this season or the next.

 

16 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wonder if his grey scale will cause an epidemic or something, which will be blamed on Daenerys and cause the people of Westeros to hate her.

Nah. Spoilers for Season 7 ahead (which I will not put under a spoiler warning, since this is a leak-unsafe thread):

According to the leaks, Sam cures Jorah's greyscale in short order (using a secret cure hoarded by the maesters he obtains behind the maesters' backs), leaving a 100% cured Jorah to accompany the wight hunt team.

Greyscale appears to amount to a whole lot of nothing in the show.

12 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I believe the showrunners when they say the big things will be the same as in the ending GRRM has planned for the books he quite possibly won't ever finish writing. Some of the stuff the show does can be very frustrating, but even if on the way to the ending Show Cersei has a miscarriage and Sansa is raped, which I don't think (but of course can't be sure) is going to happen in the books, I am sure that the show will spoil whether the character lives or dies, whether she's the endgame queen/lady or not. Someone like Sandor might be a minor enough character that GRRM hasn't yet decided what to do with him, but he has to know what is the fate of the realm: if there's still an Iron Throne when the show ends and Character X is accepted as the monarch, that's absolutely what would happen in ADOS if GRRM ever published it.

Agreed, and well put.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

but he has to know what is the fate of the realm...

This. I think all the endgames related to the fate of the realm as a whole will be same books and show. About the rest, maybe they will not be the same. 

 

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Greyscale appears to amount to a whole lot of nothing in the show.

Maybe the point of greyscale is to move Sam's plot. Perhaps it is to create new alliances.

[Eyes High]

Interesting quote from Liam Cunningham in a recent IGN interview:

Quote

 

Cunningham has been hearing "bizarre theories" about Game of Thrones for years from people who think they have puzzled out all of the story's deepest, darkest secrets. While some he thinks are too wild to be true -- including one where someone suggested Davos and Melisandre are going to settle down together and have children -- there is one popular theory he thinks fans have gotten right.

"For a couple of years I’ve been hearing a theory that I think may be right, but I don’t want to go into it because it might be a spoiler, but I think they’ve worked it out. It’ll become pretty obvious soon-ish. I have to be very delicate with all of this," Cunningham said. But with Season 7 largely wrapped, know that plenty more theories have been very, very wrong. "To listen to these theories for this season, you just have to try to keep your face straight, and sometimes it’s so ludicrous that I just burst out laughing."

 

From the wording, it's not clear whether he's referring to a theory that will be confirmed in Season 7, or whether he's talking about an endgame theory that's heavily hinted at in Season 7. If it's a theory that will be confirmed in Season 7, he could be referencing Jon and Dany hooking up. If it's an endgame theory that's hinted at in Season 7, who knows?

It depends on what he means by "popular theory." I'm scratching my head for the most popular fan theories that have yet to be confirmed by the show, since some of the biggies have been confirmed either explicitly or implicitly (R+L=J, e.g.). From the careful phrasing ("that I think may be right"), it sounds like Season 7 doesn't slam dunk this particular theory so much as hint at it. The other thing that jumps out is that Cunningham has been hearing this fan theory "for a couple of years," but he's been involved in the show, going to cons, etc. for longer than that. Is it a fan theory that popped up more recently as the show unfolded?

[SeanC]

I would guess that theory is Queen Dany + King Jon OTP.

That's not something that's specific to the last few years, of course, but I'd guess Cunningham wasn't being that precise in his word choices.

[Edith]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Interesting quote from Liam Cunningham in a recent IGN interview:

From the wording, it's not clear whether he's referring to a theory that will be confirmed in Season 7, or whether he's talking about an endgame theory that's heavily hinted at in Season 7. If it's a theory that will be confirmed in Season 7, he could be referencing Jon and Dany hooking up. If it's an endgame theory that's hinted at in Season 7, who knows?

It depends on what he means by "popular theory." I'm scratching my head for the most popular fan theories that have yet to be confirmed by the show, since some of the biggies have been confirmed either explicitly or implicitly (R+L=J, e.g.). From the careful phrasing ("that I think may be right"), it sounds like Season 7 doesn't slam dunk this particular theory so much as hint at it. The other thing that jumps out is that Cunningham has been hearing this fan theory "for a couple of years," but he's been involved in the show, going to cons, etc. for longer than that. Is it a fan theory that popped up more recently as the show unfolded?

What about R+L marriage? That's an old theory getting confirmed in season 7. Ice dragon (sort of)? Dany getting pregnant? 

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, Edith said:

What about R+L marriage? That's an old theory getting confirmed in season 7. Ice dragon (sort of)? Dany getting pregnant? 

Possible. I think SeanC might be right about Cunningham referring to the King Jon/Queen Dany endgame theory, though.

And on that note, we have the following thirdhand (?) information from user Prince_Cade at /Freefolk:

Quote

I once asked Ran ([Elio] Garcia ) if GRRM ever thought about continuing after ASOIAF and he told me George was once interested in doing a mystery/crime series set in Braavos some years after everything in the 7K settled. A grown Arya was to have a part in it. I doubt he still going to do it but I wonder how would that have been?

As another /Freefolk user commented, this implies both that the White Walkers are vanquished and that Arya survives the end of the books. If GRRM planned a grown post-ASOIAF Arya to be directly involved in the Braavos story, then that would rule out any Queen Arya endgames as well, since she would be unlikely to go skipping off to Braavos if she had responsibilities keeping her in Westeros.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

...then that would rule out any Queen Arya endgames as well, since she would be unlikely to go skipping off to Braavos if she had responsibilities keeping her in Westeros.

Sound like a going-on-adventures Arya. To me, it makes more (narrative) sense than Queen Arya. In the show, instead going back to Bravoos, it is possible it will be traveling West of Westeros.

Edited February 19, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Sound like a going-on-adventures Arya. To me, it makes more (narrative) sense than Queen Arya. In the show, instead going back to Bravoos, it is possible it will be traveling West of Westeros.

It does seem to suggest that Arya doesn't disappear never to be heard from again. She could sail west of Westeros and then later on turn up in Braavos.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It does seem to suggest that Arya doesn't disappear never to be heard from again. She could sail west of Westeros and then later on turn up in Braavos.

I do not think she will dissapear and never to be heard from again. I think, instead, she will return to Winterfell after some years, because she will continue her story somewhere outside Westeros, maybe GRRM imagines it will be Braavos and D&D imagines West of Westeros.

I think this is a good example of what I mean when I say maybe the endgame of the main characters will be the "same" books and show...but it will not be exactly the same, some elements will be the same and some will be different:

Important element of her narrative: Arya will not be Queen or the Lady of a Castle. She will go on a journey.

Not so important element of her narrative: where she will go exactly. Maybe Braavos, perhaps West of Westeros, etc.

Edited February 20, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[alcasinoroyale]

It depends on how an epilogue would play out, but I agree with the OP that Arya and Sansa will both likely have open endings. I like the idea of Arya sailing west of Westeros, even if it's similar to LotR when Frodo leaves Middle Earth and sails west with the Elves. Also, considering GRRM has used Tolkien for inspiration, it would definitely tie in with the "bittersweet" ending he's been teasing. As for Sansa, I'm still debating whether she'll end up back with Tyrion. However, I imagine she could potentially go south in S8 because she has unfinished business with Cersei and it would allow for another storyline besides the war with the WW.

[illuminata]

Most people are expecting a Jon/Dany endgame. But refs to LOTR suggests that all magical beings will disappear, including all Targs therefore. Dany will be helped to the wall before dying by Jorah so that the prophecy of her reuniting with hubby and baby can be met. All 3 dragons will reunite with Dany there as well. Jorah retreats back to Bear Island where he mediates a comical betrothal of Lyanna to SweetRobin. Arya 'goes west', likely accompanied by the Hound AND her 'hounds', ie, Nymeria and her pack, and Lady, reunited following a dust-up with Cersei and the Mountain, where the Hound takes out the Mountain AND Cersei (to save Arya), helped by Nymeria and the pack. Jon will be endgame King of the the North, now encompassing the NK turf AND Winterfell, which is too magical to fully exist in the new reality. There, they are accompanied by Bran, Rickon, Ghost, Summer, ShaggyDog, and all Jon's lost friends from the Wall, possibly joined by ALL the dead Starks, incl Ned, Cat and Rob. Tyrion rules at CR, Highgarden (aided by Sam) and Dorne (aided by Bronn). Yara rules the West; Davos, the East. Jamie and Brienne 'semi-retire' to the Sapphire Island, acting as co-hands to Sansa and Gendry as King and Queen, Gendry identified as the presumed still-born son of Robert and Cersei, and thereby the last Baratheon), the Iron Throne occupied by Starks, Baratheons and Lannisters, full-bred Targs too magical for the the new reality.

Edited March 4, 2017 by SilverStormm
Formatting issue fixed.

[illuminata]

Sorry! - the page is appearing in a very wonky way on my computer, and I can't figure out right now how to correct anything. Oh, and I horribly forgot to include Grey Wind in the Ghost group of direwolves 'living' with John in the mystical dimension of Winterfell's realm.

[BitterApple]

I agree a Jon/Dany endgame is a bit too on the nose. Dany is one of those characters that I like in a general sense, but don't necessarily have a great attachment for. If she dies, it'd be meh, whatever, for me. If Davos, Tormund, Jon, Jaime, Bronn or Arya died, I'd probably have to take a week off from work to mourn.

[Maximum Taco]

Iron Throne - Gone. The 7 Kingdoms break up, either into civil war or a tenuous peace.

Dany - I just think it's a little too clean for her to end up on the Iron Throne. And if she's not on the Iron Throne, she's dead. Dragons are also dead, or possibly gone wild after Dany's death.

Tyrion - A quiet life, maybe he makes it to the Summer Isles (the domain of the God of Tits and Wine). I don't see anything glorious here though. He's a hideous ugly dwarf by Westerosi standards. As much as we might feel differently as the viewers/readers, I just don't see anyone accepting him as their Lord/King. But I also don't see him dying, George (and Benioff and Weiss) likes him too much.

Jon Snow - Dead. I don't know exactly how, but I think it'll happen. In the books, at least, the resurrected don't really have a lot to live for. Beric Dondarrion had justice and Lady Stoneheart had vengeance. These are the fires that kept them burning. Jon has the fight against the Night's King. Once the Night's King is defeated I suspect he won't have much to live for anymore. Just like Beric and Cat he's destined to return to death.

Bran- Like others, I think that magic will probably fade out of this world. Bran will either die, or he'll be turned into a tree, or holed up in a cave as the last of his kind.

Sansa - Queen in the North, an independent North. Might be wishful thinking, but I like Sansa. And she does have a very political bend to her arc.

Arya - I honestly have no idea about Arya. She seemed like she had a plot to begin with, but it got severely derailed when she went to Braavos and they decided to make her into an ultra cool assassin. She could easily end up back with her family, or as a remorseless killing machine. No clue, and I really don't care; Arya kind of bores me. She'll be alive though.

Theon - Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet. He's one of the characters that might actually welcome death. So he's not getting it. Also it'd be a fun play on the mantra of the drowned god. Theon is pretty much dead inside and "what is dead may never die."

Davos - Maybe a Northern Lord? Maybe Sansa's Hand of the Queen? Maybe dead.

Cersei - Dead. Killed by Jaime.

Jaime - Dead. Suicide after killing Cersei.

Brienne - Dead. Suicide after seeing Jaime die (or learning of his death)

Sam - Archmaester, whose Ring, Rod and Mask are Valyrian Steel, desperately trying to keep glass candles lit as magic fades from the world.

Too much of a bummer? I kind of like unconventional endings.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Brn2bwild]

On 3/2/2017 at 10:22 PM, BitterApple said:

I agree a Jon/Dany endgame is a bit too on the nose. Dany is one of those characters that I like in a general sense, but don't necessarily have a great attachment for. If she dies, it'd be meh, whatever, for me. If Davos, Tormund, Jon, Jaime, Bronn or Arya died, I'd probably have to take a week off from work to mourn.

I thought she was likely to end up dying, but given that she and Jon have sex (if that happens), I think she's destined to be the Queen and to have a Wolf heir.  Jon may survive, but I could see him dying (his asking Melisandre to not bring him back hints at that).

One way I could see them both surviving?  Dany learns about Jon's true heritage in the second-to-last episode of the series.  Afraid of being a hypocrite if she seeks the throne for herself, she bows before Jon and calls him "Your Grace."  Jon tells her that she is the true Queen, and that he could never rule without her.  That would get people swooning.

Bran will "die" a physical death, but continue to live on in weirwood trees and animals.  Arya and Sansa will live, though both will get battered around a lot before the end.  Arya will go on a mission to kill Cersei so she can free the captive people of King's Landing and Cersei will nearly kill her, until Cersei unexpectedly sacrifices herself when her children appear as white walkers.  Sansa will remain at Winterfell, which will nearly be taken down by a white walker giant, which Sansa will defeat at the last minute.  

If Brienne dies, it will be while fighting for the cause or while making a noble sacrifice.  I can see Tormund dying.  I don't think they'd save Jorah from grayscale only to kill him off, so he'll probably live.

Yet there has to be at least one heartbreaking death, so little Lyanna Mormont will probably die.

[BlackberryJam]

17 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Iron Throne - Gone. The 7 Kingdoms break up, either into civil war or a tenuous peace.

Dany - I just think it's a little too clean for her to end up on the Iron Throne. And if she's not on the Iron Throne, she's dead. Dragons are also dead, or possibly gone wild after Dany's death.

Tyrion - A quiet life, maybe he makes it to the Summer Isles (the domain of the God of Tits and Wine). I don't see anything glorious here though. He's a hideous ugly dwarf by Westerosi standards. As much as we might feel differently as the viewers/readers, I just don't see anyone accepting him as their Lord/King. But I also don't see him dying, George (and Benioff and Weiss) likes him too much.

Jon Snow - Dead. I don't know exactly how, but I think it'll happen. In the books, at least, the resurrected don't really have a lot to live for. Beric Dondarrion had justice and Lady Stoneheart had vengeance. These are the fires that kept them burning. Jon has the fight against the Night's King. Once the Night's King is defeated I suspect he won't have much to live for anymore. Just like Beric and Cat he's destined to return to death.

Bran- Like others, I think that magic will probably fade out of this world. Bran will either die, or he'll be turned into a tree, or holed up in a cave as the last of his kind.

Sansa - Queen in the North, an independent North. Might be wishful thinking, but I like Sansa. And she does have a very political bend to her arc.

Arya - I honestly have no idea about Arya. She seemed like she had a plot to begin with, but it got severely derailed when she went to Braavos and they decided to make her into an ultra cool assassin. She could easily end up back with her family, or as a remorseless killing machine. No clue, and I really don't care; Arya kind of bores me. She'll be alive though.

Theon - Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet. He's one of the characters that might actually welcome death. So he's not getting it. Also it'd be a fun play on the mantra of the drowned god. Theon is pretty much dead inside and "what is dead may never die."

Davos - Maybe a Northern Lord? Maybe Sansa's Hand of the Queen? Maybe dead.

Cersei - Dead. Killed by Jaime.

Jaime - Dead. Suicide after killing Cersei.

Brienne - Dead. Suicide after seeing Jaime die (or learning of his death)

Sam - Archmaester, whose Ring, Rod and Mask are Valyrian Steel, desperately trying to keep glass candles lit as magic fades from the world.

Too much of a bummer? I kind of like unconventional endings.

I don't think these proposed endings are very unconventional, and I also don't think they are following the story arcs.

I agree the IT will be gone. I think the dragons will die when the threat of the Others is defeated. Dany's goal is to be the Queen of Westeros, and I think she will fail in that. She also has a strong savior story line. If she sacrifices her dragons to save Westeros, I think that makes sense. But I think she will realize she doesn't belong there as it's not a country for her to rule. I think she returns to Essos (Valyria?).

Tyrion. I think he will end up as a brilliant Hand to a kingdom, or ruling lands himself. He'll prove his father wrong. Perhaps, if Sansa survives, the rule something together.

Jon. I don't think we will see him die a second time. However, I think he can no longer have children.

Bran. Becomes one with the Old Gods.

Sansa. IF she survives, she might rule something with Tyrion. She will not be able to have children.

Arya. I think she'll die.

Theon will sacrifice himself for Jon, redeeming himself for the wrongs he did to the Starks.

Davos will be a retainer of one lord or another.

Cersei dead by wildfire which is her own fault. She has always been the architect of her own destruction.

Jaime survives as a ruler of one area or another, likely with Brienne. His arc is about accepting responsibility and becoming the lord he was meant to be. He's spent his entire life shirking his duty as the heir to the Lannisters. High likelihood of being a father, again with Brienne. Never going to commit suicide. He already had is point of wishing death upon himself when he lost his hand. He doesn't feel that again.

Brienne, survives, mostly likely with Jaime. The idea that she would commit suicide is ludicrous. She fulfills the Beauty and the Beast arc.

Sam survives and leads the Reach with Gilly.

I believe that the Stark line ends with this generation. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by BlackberryJam

[whateverdgaf]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Jaime survives as a ruler of one area or another, likely with Brienne. His arc is about accepting responsibility and becoming the lord he was meant to be. He's spent his entire life shirking his duty as the heir to the Lannisters. High likelihood of being a father, again with Brienne. Never going to commit suicide. He already had is point of wishing death upon himself when he lost his hand. He doesn't feel that again.

Brienne, survives, mostly likely with Jaime. The idea that she would commit suicide is ludicrous. She fulfills the Beauty and the Beast arc.

One of the reasons why I prefer the thought of Brienne getting together with Jaime, as opposed to a popular ending for her which is becoming Lady Commander of the Kings/Queensgaurd, as that it means she can succeed in being accepted as both a woman who desires love and romance, and a knight, as opposed to just a Knight.

Plus, Brienne herself has also been neglecting her duty towards Tarth and her father, so this ending means that they can both fulfill the roles they have been avoiding. (I have a headcanon that one of the reasons Brienne is so seperate to serve others is due to her guilt that she feels she is uanble to be the heir her father needed, and thus is trying to compensate.)

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Cersei dead by wildfire which is her own fault. She has always been the architect of her own destruction.

I definitely believe that Cersei's death will be a direct result of her own actions. I would love it if it is revelaed that the Valonqar is a self-fulfilling prophecy that she could have avoided.

[BlackberryJam]

19 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

One of the reasons why I prefer the thought of Brienne getting together with Jaime, as opposed to a popular ending for her which is becoming Lady Commander of the Kings/Queensgaurd, as that it means she can succeed in being accepted as both a woman who desires love and romance, and a knight, as opposed to just a Knight.

Plus, Brienne herself has also been neglecting her duty towards Tarth and her father, so this ending means that they can both fulfill the roles they have been avoiding. (I have a headcanon that one of the reasons Brienne is so seperate to serve others is due to her guilt that she feels she is uanble to be the heir her father needed, and thus is trying to compensate.)

I definitely believe that Cersei's death will be a direct result of her own actions. I would love it if it is revelaed that the Valonqar is a self-fulfilling prophecy that she could have avoided.

Absolutely on Brienne's arc. She has failed to fulfill her duties as heir of her House (as has Jaime.) Their arcs are about finally doing what they were always meant to do, lead their Houses, instead of serving others in a celibate order.

I don't see any character in the show commiting suicide. They may sacrifice themselves in battle, but not taking their own lives out of sadness or desperation. 

[SeanC]

51 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Absolutely on Brienne's arc. She has failed to fulfill her duties as heir of her House (as has Jaime.) Their arcs are about finally doing what they were always meant to do, lead their Houses, instead of serving others in a celibate order.

You could maybe make a case for that in Jaime's arc (even if I don't really agree), but I don't see that at all in Brienne's.  I can't recall Brienne's being the heir to Tarth even coming up in the show, and it's not something she thinks about much at all in the books either.  Her arc is about exploring knighthood.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

You could maybe make a case for that in Jaime's arc (even if I don't really agree), but I don't see that at all in Brienne's.  I can't recall Brienne's being the heir to Tarth even coming up in the show, and it's not something she thinks about much at all in the books either.  Her arc is about exploring knighthood.

I believe the closest reference in the show was in her speech to Pod explaining her loyalty to Renly, but even then she didn't spell out that she was the heir, only that she was her father's only living child.

Quote

I believe that the Stark line ends with this generation. 

That seems unlikely, given that the title of the last book was planned to be A Time for Wolves.