Riverdale, The Town: Sister City of Capeside and Twin Peaks

[Just Here]

A place to talk about the town and its locations...

From the pilot thread:

12 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

One detail that’s bothering though, is how big the town is supposed to be. The population count was conveniently absent from the town sign and the town is small enough to only have one high school and for everyone to know everyone else. But it’s also big enough to have an apartment building with a doorman downtown? Which apparently has been there since Veronica’s mother was a kid? Admittedly, my knowledge of small towns in the US is limited, but how big does a town need to be before starting to support a building like that? And it also has enough new construction going on to support a company's like the one Archie's dad has.

It's not necessarily about the size of the town, but the economic history.

That kind of formal apartment/condo building suggests some kind of economic boon, such as being an important (enough) location for trade, such as being a significant port on its river, or being a railroad junction (e.g., Grafton, West Virginia, peak population of only 8500, but had a very nice seven-story hotel).  Or, maybe Riverdale is/was home to a major manufacturing plant (or multiple plants).  Plus, given the rural surroundings, there may have been an oil and/or gas boom in the county, which could have been brought in more extra wealth.  Also, perhaps the building started out as a luxury hotel, but was converted into a luxury condo/apartment building.

[MarkHB]

Just for reference, the original comics Riverdale was based on the creator's hometown of Haverhill, Massachusetts.  That city has since declined somewhat as much of the Merrimack Valley has, but it also gave the world Tom Bergeron.

[methodwriter85]

Haverhill at the time the comics were conceived at the time had a population of 40k to 50k. I guess "small town" is kind of subjective? The town that they're using for establishing shots in no way looks like it's got over 40k people, but eh, whatever. It would make more sense if Riverdale was really a small city with a population around 50k to 60k, and we're just seeing a certain section of the town. That would then explain why a gang would even bother setting up there,

[Bruinsfan]

My city is somewhere in the 60,000s and has one major central high school, although there are also high schools in the satellite communities outside the suburbs. We do not, so far as I'm aware, have multi-story luxury condos with doormen or 1950s style nunnery/asylums where embarrassed parents can have their "bad girl" teens locked away for getting pregnant.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[methodwriter85]

On 3/9/2017 at 2:44 PM, Bruinsfan said:

My city is somewhere in the 60,000s and has one major central high school, although there are also high schools in the satellite communities outside the suburbs. We do not, so far as I'm aware, have multi-story luxury condos with doormen or 1950s style nunnery/asylums where embarrassed parents can have their "bad girl" teens locked away for getting pregnant.

Do you at least have high school boys running around that look as though they are all 25-year old male models?

According to Cole Sprouse in this AMA he did, Riverdale doesn't really exist in any specific time period. Which has always made sense to me- I've always figured that we're on some kind of floating timeline where we're in all times.

[Bruinsfan]

No, but back when I was in school there were a couple that looked like 30-year-old NFL defensive linemen.

[AzureOwl]

I was rewatching the second half of the season during the weekend, and I’m left with some questions about the town’s history.

We have been told that Riverdale was founded 75 years ago. We are also told that the town was founded on the maple syrup industry. This means that the murder of Grandpappy Cooper had to have taken place less than 75 years pre-S1.

Now, the 75 year figure is a good match for the number of generations involved. All the parents are supposed to be in their early to mid-40s. That would’ place their parents birth between 65 and 70 years pre-S1, which is right around the time of Grandpappy Cooper’s death and would make him and his brother young men at the time.

The 75 year figure also pops up in relation to the payments that the Blossoms have been giving to the Lodges which go that far back, which probably has something to do with the incident where Grandpappy Cooper died.   

And yet during the tapping ceremony in episode 9, Clifford says that Grandfather Blossom planted the first maple trees 100 years ago. How does that fit with everything else? For Grandfather Blossom to have planted the trees a century ago, leaves a 25 year gap between the start of the business and the founding of the town. It also creates issues with everyone’s age. If Grandfather Blossom was already a grown man starting a business 100 years ago, then he would’ve been in his 50s when Riverdale was founded and their kids at least teenagers.

[Bill1978]

11 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

For Grandfather Blossom to have planted the trees a century ago, leaves a 25 year gap between the start of the business and the founding of the town.

How long does it take for a maple tree to grow? I have no idea. Is it possible that Grandpa Blossom was just starting a maple farm as a hobby type project and when things started going well, people moved to also farm maple and thus Riverdale was formed. Kinda like a slow version of a gold rush?

[The Crazed Spruce]

5 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

How long does it take for a maple tree to grow? I have no idea. Is it possible that Grandpa Blossom was just starting a maple farm as a hobby type project and when things started going well, people moved to also farm maple and thus Riverdale was formed. Kinda like a slow version of a gold rush?

To Wikipedia!

Quote

Maples are usually tapped beginning at 30 to 40 years of age. Each tree can support between one and three taps, depending on its trunk diameter. The average maple tree will produce 35 to 50 litres (9.2 to 13.2 US gal) of sap per season, up to 12 litres (3.2 US gal) per day. This is roughly equal to 7% of its total sap. Seasons last for four to eight weeks, depending on the weather.

[AzureOwl]

10 hours ago, The Crazed Spruce said:

To Wikipedia!

That explains it then. For the maple syrup industry to have kicked into high gear enough to merit founding the town, the trees had to have been planted decades earlier. But this still leaves our generational count a little wobbly. 

By my estimate that would leave the chronology looking something like this:

• Circa 1890 ----> Generation 1 (Grandfather Blossom and Granpappy "Cooper") is born.
• Circa 1917 ----> The first maple trees are planted in the Sweetwater river basin.
• Circa 1935 ----> Generation 2 (Clifford's father, Nana Rose, Hal's father) is born.
• 1942 ----------> Riverdale is founded. Grandpappy "Cooper" dies*. His children change their surname to Cooper. 
• Circa 1975 ----> Generation 3 (Clifford, Hal, the rest of the parents) is born.
• Post 2000 -----> Generation 4 (Jason & Cheryl, Betty, Polly) is born.

For this to work, Generations 1 and 2 would have to have been in their early to mid 40s when their children were born. How plausible is that?

 

 

 

* I'm assuming that the murder happened around the same time the town was founded because of the payments from the Blossoms to Lodge Industries dating to that period as well.

Edited May 9, 2017 by AzureOwl

[Dee]

Clifford being born in 1975 is really stretching the timeline. lol

[AzureOwl]

Yeah, I put him there for simplicity's sake.

Age-wise Clifford is really the odd man out in the parents' generation All the other parents seem to be not only around the same age (early 40s), but to have gone to high-school together. Clifford on the other hand could conceivably be a decade older. 

A problem is that in this case going by the actors' age isn't an option because they vary so widely: Marisol Nichols (1973), Mädchen Amick (1970), Skeet Ulrich (1970), Molly Ringwald (1968) Luke Perry (1966), Lochlyn Munro (1966), Barclay Hope - Clifford (1958). 

I was originally going to put Generation 2's birth year to circa 1970, which would put everyone on their early 30s when their children were born, which would be a nice fit... except that most of these couple got together in high-school. Would they have really waited that long to get married and start having children?

[methodwriter85]

It's not THAT impossible. I know a girl from high school who got with her boyfriend in 11th grade, but they didn't have their first kid until they were about 28 or so.

Riverdale is apparently big enough that they have two high schools, which means it has to be at least 15k, 20k people here.

Edited May 13, 2017 by methodwriter85

[The Crazed Spruce]

My parents were pushing 50 when I was born. (To be fair, though, I'm the 13th of 14 siblings, and my oldest sister was around 30, so take that for what you will....)

[AzureOwl]

On 2017-5-13 at 0:56 PM, methodwriter85 said:

It's not THAT impossible. I know a girl from high school who got with her boyfriend in 11th grade, but they didn't have their first kid until they were about 28 or so.

But all of them? Alice, Hal, Fred, Mary, Hermionie and FP all went to school together and all had kids within a year of each other.

[Mabinogia]

Maybe they had a post college pregnancy pact. Or they all bought part of a bad batch of condoms. Or someone slipped fertility drugs in the water. lol

[methodwriter85]

No, it was totally a witch's pack that passed a spell that made this happen.

[MCMLXXVII]

Why is there snow on the ground for almost the whole season when the school year was just starting? Even for maple-syrup producing areas like Vermont, this seems bizarre.

Also, there's snow, but people are in fall outerwear at best? No down coats, scarves, boots?

Edited May 27, 2017 by MCMLXXVII

[The Crazed Spruce]

3 hours ago, MCMLXXVII said:

Why is there snow on the ground for almost the whole season when the school year was just starting? Even for maple-syrup producing areas like Vermont, this seems bizarre.

Also, there's snow, but people are in fall outerwear at best? No down coats, scarves, boots?

Personally, I didn't have an issue with it. (Then again, where I live, it snowed this morning, so I'm not really one to judge....)

[methodwriter85]

Weather on T.V. is almost never right unless you film and set a show in a place that doesn't get much inclement weather, like Arizona or southern California. The show was filmed in Vancouver mostly during the Winter months so there's not much they can do about it. Although yeah, the lack of winter stuff is kind of weird.

Edited May 28, 2017 by methodwriter85

[RachelKM]

I am super confused about the geography of the town.  It's clear that Fred, Alice, Hermione, FP, and Hal all went to Riverdale High.   Fred, Alice, and FP seem to have been from the Southside.  I can believe that there was only one high school then, maybe, and Southside High was built later (even though it's more common for new schools to be built in the wealthier sides of town both due to affluence and the fact that poorer sides of town tend to be the older parts with the wealthy people moving further and further out).  And I can believe that Alice married into a more affluent household and Fred and his wife moved.

But why was Jughead ever at Riverdale then?  His family didn't seem to have moved out of the Southside area.

[PeekaBoo]

12 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I am super confused about the geography of the town.  It's clear that Fred, Alice, Hermione, FP, and Hal all went to Riverdale High.   Fred, Alice, and FP seem to have been from the Southside.  I can believe that there was only one high school then, maybe, and Southside High was built later (even though it's more common for new schools to be built in the wealthier sides of town both due to affluence and the fact that poorer sides of town tend to be the older parts with the wealthy people moving further and further out).  And I can believe that Alice married into a more affluent household and Fred and his wife moved.

But why was Jughead ever at Riverdale then?  His family didn't seem to have moved out of the Southside area.

Been asking myself the same question and must be just a plot hole... 

What I'm thinking is maybe at one point the joneses used to lived in the north side and then when the family imploded they moved back to that trailer on the south side and never bothered letting the school know about the change of address? Some theory like that? 

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, PeekaBoo said:

Been asking myself the same question and must be just a plot hole... 

What I'm thinking is maybe at one point the joneses used to lived in the north side and then when the family imploded they moved back to that trailer on the south side and never bothered letting the school know about the change of address? Some theory like that? 

I can accept that.  It seems that, before Fred had to let him go, FP might have been doing better.   Alternative BS fanwank is that somehow the Joneses managed to be just within the Riverdale district border. 

This is less a town thing, but also a logistics nit pick, but how old are/were the Blossom twins?  They seemed to have been in a grade or two ahead of Archie and Betty, and Jason dated Betty's older sister.  But then, there doesn't seem to be any grade distinction between Archie, Betty, Jughead Veronica, et al. and Cheryl beyond the fact that Cheryl was HBIC on the Vixens.  But since Veronica usurped her, Ronnie was eligible I guess.  It sort of works in the gang are all Juniors and Betty was a late birthday where Polly was an early birthday, putting them only 1 year apart in school while being closer to two years difference in age.  But still....

[MCMLXXVII]

I think Veronica said it was sophomore  year in an early episode when first meeting Betty and Archie.

[AzureOwl]

OK, from the last episode we got another clue abut the town's location. 

According to Jughead, it's only "a straight shot up Sweetwater River to the Canadian border".

Now, maybe it is because English is not my first language, but what does "a straight shot up the river" supposed to mean? That Riverdale is close to the Canadian border but there are no roads leading up to it?

[Enginerd]

14 minutes ago, AzureOwl said:

OK, from the last episode we got another clue abut the town's location. 

According to Jughead, it's only "a straight shot up Sweetwater River to the Canadian border".

Now, maybe it is because English is not my first language, but what does "a straight shot up the river" supposed to mean? That Riverdale is close to the Canadian border but there are no roads leading up to it?

It's not because English isn't your first language; that's vague and unclear. Maybe there are roads but they are indirect, so if you're driving it doesn't seem like a quick trip to Canada (especially since border crossings are limited in number, so even if you can get close to the border on roads, you may have to go out of your way to actually cross it...legally, at least). But it's actually quite nearby? Maybe the drug runners are using the river to cross the border and transport drugs to or from Montreal because it's shorter and not watched as closely as the border at road crossings and more populated areas?

Just based on the maple syrup and the weather, I imagined Riverdale to be somewhere in New England or maybe upstate New York. Possibly the northern Midwest. Did Fred drive to Chicago when he went to finalize the divorce?

[secnarf]

I thought the meaning was pretty clear - you can just take the river straight to Canada.

[PeekaBoo]

Having driven around new England and near/across the Canadian border, there are several rivers and lakes that cross both countries, it's easy to suggest that the city is around upstate New York and New England as others have already written. 

My geography not being what it used to be, sweet water river might spew out onto the Hudson or Connecticut River...

What strikes me as odd is that people will think it's just a piece of cake crossing the border through waterway undetected lol... 

Can understand why they would pick Montreal as the centre point of drug trade or escape route, it's the biggest city around there and barely 1 hrs drive from the border...and it's a pretty  nice place  tbh?

 Shouldn't they be mentioning Boston a little more instead? ??

[Bugs Meany]

On 10/19/2017 at 5:04 PM, AzureOwl said:

Now, maybe it is because English is not my first language, but what does "a straight shot up the river" supposed to mean? That Riverdale is close to the Canadian border but there are no roads leading up to it?

Straight shot basically means an unobstructed, easy journey. No twists and turns or directions needed. It can apply to a river or road.

On 10/19/2017 at 5:26 PM, Enginerd said:

Just based on the maple syrup and the weather, I imagined Riverdale to be somewhere in New England or maybe upstate New York. Possibly the northern Midwest. Did Fred drive to Chicago when he went to finalize the divorce?

A season 1 deleted scene confirmed that Riverdale is in New York, not too far from the city. Perhaps they cut the scene to preserve some mystery.

[mtlchick]

Quote

A season 1 deleted scene confirmed that Riverdale is in New York, not too far from the city. Perhaps they cut the scene to preserve some mystery.

 

Ah that makes a lot of sense.  I finally made my way through season 1 and I had to chuckle that Montreal (yay! hometown) was the centre of illegal drug trade with the guise of all things maple syrup.  Because people steal that stuff here!   Montreal to the outer limits of New York via the Bronx is about 6 hours through highway 87 all the way through New York state.  And Sweetwater River can easily spill into Lake Champlain, which runs through upstate Vermont and New York into Quebec.   So I'm thinking it's north of Albany and in the Adirondacks. 

[PeekaBoo]

5 hours ago, mtlchick said:

 

Ah that makes a lot of sense.  I finally made my way through season 1 and I had to chuckle that Montreal (yay! hometown) was the centre of illegal drug trade with the guise of all things maple syrup.  Because people steal that stuff here!   Montreal to the outer limits of New York via the Bronx is about 6 hours through highway 87 all the way through New York state.  And Sweetwater River can easily spill into Lake Champlain, which runs through upstate Vermont and New York into Quebec.   So I'm thinking it's north of Albany and in the Adirondacks. 

Omg... montreal is my hometown too lol... woohoo... 

Kept chuckling hilariously when they referred to mtl as a drug center of sorts,  mwahaha but i forgot about that deleted scene... so i was thinking that the town is probably not that far from the border since mtl is probably the "biggest" town where they get their drugs from instead of nyc or i dont know buffalo or boston. And wasn't it in an episode jug wanted fp to go across the border or something? 

I just laugh at how easy people think it is to go across the border or passing drugs across the border lol... 

I wonder what type of busines hiram had in mtl though...

[Mabinogia]

19 hours ago, mtlchick said:

I finally made my way through season 1 and I had to chuckle that Montreal (yay! hometown) was the centre of illegal drug trade with the guise of all things maple syrup.  Because people steal that stuff here! 

Maple syrup is no joke!

[dwmckim]

It's a pretty sticky area...

[mtlchick]

Quote

I wonder what type of busines hiram had in mtl though...

Cheese curds?  Apparently it's hard to find in most states.  (IRL, Kelly Ripa has said that Montreal is one of her favourite cities in the world, so assuming Mark has a good feel for the city as well, he can throw in a few suggestions.) 

[MarkHB]

On 1/1/2018 at 1:50 PM, mtlchick said:

Cheese curds?  Apparently it's hard to find in most states.  (IRL, Kelly Ripa has said that Montreal is one of her favourite cities in the world, so assuming Mark has a good feel for the city as well, he can throw in a few suggestions.) 

Hey, if he could come up with a way to get Monsieur's Smoked Meats across the border, I'd pay whatever he asked.  (I got to go to an Expos game once; made sure to visit that concession!)

[methodwriter85]

So...we're supposed to believe that Riverdale experienced an Native American massacre more than a century after most of the Native Americans had been removed from that area? Okay.