S03.E10: We're Bad People

[Aquarius97]

On 3/2/2017 at 4:32 AM, maddie965 said:

Question: am I the only one who thinks the show revealed the killer in the final minutes of the episode? First, Bonnie tells Frank: "They are saying Wes died in the fire, and it's not true. Come here, I need you", or something like that. How can she know for sure? She knows for sure because she knows exactly what happened there. She and Frank planed the whole thing together. Then, Frank confesses, because he can't stand to see Annalise in prison. But we know Frank is lying, taking a guilty trip, because, well, that's what he does these days. So this leaves only Bonnie. She did this. She killed Wes. Am I alone in thinking this?

Nate told AK about Wes being already death before the fire, so we can assume that she told that to Bonnie

[love2lovebadtv]

On 1/29/2017 at 6:30 PM, Milaxx said:

I have more of an issue with Asher than Connor.   Asher because he claims to love her and wants to get to know but also because for Asher it's not just Micheala he does this with. Connor I feel there is more reciprocity in the relationship. They started out as bitchy but post Aiden, I think Connor and Michaela have moved onto a point where they confide in each other but also bitch each other out. So Connor would encourage Michaela to go out and date other guys post Aiden. Unfortunately he didn't know Levi & Caleb would be losers.  Aja & Matt have terrific chemistry together that makes me root for Micheala & Asher, but the writer's really need to put his privilege in check.

Darnit! That's right. I can't believe I keep forgetting the details. 

Cant blame yourself for that.  This show is bonkers. 

[Milaxx]

I found the post that has the interview where we get Connor background info. 

You talked a little bit about kind of doing some work on just Connor’s relationship past. What do you know about his family life and where this guy comes from?

Pete was very firm in saying that Connor comes from a family that’s very accepting and has always accepted him for who he was. And it was a probably a family where it wasn’t necessary for Connor to come out. That’s my take on it, but I think that he definitely comes from a supportive family, an affluent family, a successful family, an academic family. But, yeah, that’s something that’s been considered, and it would be very cool to me to see the Walshes pop up here or there. It also mentions that Connor likes to pretend he's not about relationships, but he's sees something in Oliver.

On 2/9/2015 at 3:50 AM, quangtran said:

Based on the interview Jack did with thebacklot after the pilot aired, Connor coming from an accepting family was something they figured out early on. Pete most likely wanted to avoid the whole "tomented homosexual" cliche (though he is currently tomented, it has nothing to do with him being gay).
 

[Milaxx]

As to why Connor is still on Micheala's couch, I think it's 2 fold. In part because deep down he hoped he & Oliver would reconcile, and also comfort. Michaela is a friend and one he confides in about Oliver the most. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Milaxx

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

That shit that Connor said was horrible, but I have no problem with him hating Wes whatsoever, none. I didn't hate Wes but I certainly rolled my eyes a number of times when he was on screen. /I'm with the writer of the review above, in that I kinda don't really care who killed Wes. I'm more interested in that fact that Connor's been in therapy, and that clearly he has a long way to go.

This. I'm catching up on the episodes because it's been too late for me the last two weeks, with work, and I haven't read all the comments but I imagine this is the unpopular view. The crack about the abortion was inexcusable but I'm sorry I will never hate or be bothered by Connor's feelings about Wes. Fair or not (because yes some will argue he chose to show up at Sam's and he joined the cover up, etc.) a lot of this did start with Wes and more importantly Annalise's love (platonic by the way) for Wes.

But more importantly, they weren't friends. After the season finale, some were judging Connor insisting he shouldn't dare seem upset because of how he'd always treated poor Wes. Well there you go, he admits he's not upset and isn't' going to cry about it. As I said after the season finale, I liked Wes well enough and am sad he's dead. But as much as I liked him, I could also realize that he was incredibly frustrating and more importantly incredibly self righteous and selfish himself. He was laser focused on Rebecca to the exclusion of everyone else and even after shit went down he never really fully owned up to that. So no, I'm not going to hate Connor because he's not too broken up or acting the most appropriately over Wes' death. 

The fact is, as I've said, all of these people are awful so none can judge either's actions. Yeah Asher played the dutiful grieving friend but again, I might be more impressed with Asher if we ever get a second of him seeming genuinely upset or guilty over the fact that he backed his car over a woman and killed her in cold blood. 

[muessigkeit]

6 hours ago, doram said:

I feel that we did. 

We definitely did. Asher in 2B was all about his guilt. He was drinking (most prominently in 2x10), he offered to turn himself in multiple times (twice in 2x12, once in 2x14) and he apologized to everyone with this speech (2x14): 

"Excuse me, everyone, if I could have your attention. I would like to offer all of you an apology. [...] Uh, I'm sorry for ruining your lives. Uh, yeah I don't know. Maybe none of this would've happened if you all hadn't killed Sam, or if whoever hadn't killed Lila [...] Anyway, the point is, I messed up and made you all stick your necks out on the line for me, and I just want to say thank you. Thank you for protecting me after I, you know - killed" [Connor interrupts]

I'm by no means an Asher fan, his antics are like nails on a chalkboard to me, but to say he never showed guilt is completely untrue.

[ArkisticMockery]

The Laurel-Wes and Annalise-Wes flashbacks were necessary and expectedly sweet, but I think Michaela's stands out. It was unexpected and unlikely. Connor's and Asher's were kind of a dud. That very short conversation of Wes and Michaela gave us a view on her understanding and her instict to take care of Laurel.

[Layne]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:13 AM, muessigkeit said:

We definitely did. Asher in 2B was all about his guilt. He was drinking (most prominently in 2x10), he offered to turn himself in multiple times (twice in 2x12, once in 2x14) and he apologized to everyone with this speech (2x14): 

"Excuse me, everyone, if I could have your attention. I would like to offer all of you an apology. [...] Uh, I'm sorry for ruining your lives. Uh, yeah I don't know. Maybe none of this would've happened if you all hadn't killed Sam, or if whoever hadn't killed Lila [...] Anyway, the point is, I messed up and made you all stick your necks out on the line for me, and I just want to say thank you. Thank you for protecting me after I, you know - killed" [Connor interrupts]

I'm by no means an Asher fan, his antics are like nails on a chalkboard to me, but to say he never showed guilt is completely untrue.

That shows that he feels guilty for getting his friends in trouble. Not for killing an innocent woman.

And he was drinking because he was grieving his father, not because he was thinking about all of the loved ones who'd be grieving Sinclair.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 

That shows that he feels guilty for getting his friends in trouble. Not for killing an innocent woman.

And he was drinking because he was grieving his father, not because he was thinking about all of the loved ones who'd be grieving Sinclair

 

 

 

 

I don't know how innocent she was, I actually don't believe she was innocent.

I believe she too was part of the corrupt justice system that had been trying to take Anna down, so good riddance to her. If Anna goes down then that means all of them go down and I particularly don't want Michaela going down so, I have no issues with Sinclair being gone. It would have been nice if Asher could have gotten hold of his temper while she rubbed it in that his father was dead, but he couldn't and he ran over her ass. After all, this is a show about getting away with murder. People are going to get killed whether they deserve it or not and some folks are going to get away with it. If I can still like Frank even though the vision of him choking the life out of a young pregnant girl is horrific, and he showed no guilt about it, then I sure as hell can move on from what Asher did. 

[Layne]

25 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I don't know how innocent she was, I actually don't believe she was innocent.

I believe she too was part of the corrupt justice system that had been trying to take Anna down, so good riddance to her. If Anna goes down then that means all of them go down and I particularly don't want Michaela going down so, I have no issues with Sinclair being gone. It would have been nice if Asher could have gotten hold of his temper while she rubbed it in that his father was dead, but he couldn't and he ran over her ass. After all, this is a show about getting away with murder. People are going to get killed whether they deserve it or not and some folks are going to get away with it. If I can still like Frank even though the vision of him choking the life out of a young pregnant girl is horrific, and he showed no guilt about it, then I sure as hell can move on from what Asher did. 

Who is telling you not to move on from what Asher did?

Who is talking about Frank?

Who is saying that this is not a show about getting away with murder?

Who said anything about Michaela going down?

What evidence is there that Sinclair was corrupt? Wasn't her murder what catalyzed the DA's corruption?

How does wanting to get [legal] justice for murder victims make someone deserving of death? Doesn't that make her the good guy? She threatened to expose them for the crimes they committed, but does that make her "not innocent"?

Isn't Annalise the one who leaked all that stuff on Judge Millstone? Isn't that why Asher killed Sinclair - because he thought she's the one who leaked it?

How is Asher losing his temper and hitting Sinclair after she taunted him about his father any different from Toby losing his temper and hitting Jenny with a baseball bat after she taunted him about his appearance?

Has Asher ever acknowledged that Catherine Hapstall is rotting in jail for a crime that he committed? Isn't that how he's getting away with murder?

And why are you so angry? Everything I said in my previous comment about Asher - why he was drinking and what he has expressed guilt about - is objectively true.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Layne
duplicate sentence

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 

Who is telling you not to move on from what Asher did?

Who is talking about Frank?

Who is saying that this is not a show about getting away with murder?

Who said anything about Michaela going down?

What evidence is there that Sinclair was corrupt? Wasn't her murder what catalyzed the DA's corruption?

How does wanting to get [legal] justice for murder victims make someone deserving of death? Doesn't that make her the good guy? She threatened to expose them for the crimes they committed, but does that make her "not innocent"?

Isn't Annalise the one who leaked all that stuff on Judge Millstone? Isn't that why Asher killed Sinclair - because he thought she's the one who leaked it?

How is Asher losing his temper and hitting Sinclair after she taunted him about his father any different from Toby losing his temper and hitting Jenny with a baseball bat after she taunted him about his appearance?

Has Asher ever acknowledged that Catherine Hapstall is rotting in jail for a crime that he committed? Isn't that how he's getting away with murder?

And why are you so angry? Everything I said in my previous comment about Asher - why he was drinking and what he has expressed guilt about - is objectively true.

LOL, and I'm angry, OK. Let me just back out of this thread, scary. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Layne]

Just trying to understand your logic.

[Milaxx]

On 3/15/2017 at 3:33 PM, Layne said:

....

What evidence is there that Sinclair was corrupt? Wasn't her murder what catalyzed the DA's corruption?

....

Has Asher ever acknowledged that Catherine Hapstall is rotting in jail for a crime that he committed? Isn't that how he's getting away with murder?

...

 

There was the phone call after Sinclair had gotten smacked down by AK where she's talking about how she messed up. It may be nothing, she could be another pawn like it appears Atwood was this season, or she could have been as corrupt as Denver.

 

I'm beginning to question if Catherine Hapstall is indeed still in prison. AK broke privilege when she was testifying so her testimony was thrown out. That means she wasn't convicted of murdering Sinclair or shooting AK because there was no other witness or evidence.  IIRC last we saw Catherine was sentenced to 5 years. Philip came forward with evidence that Caleb killed their parents and his aunt. It's quite possible that Catherine either got released on time served or got one of those infamous immunity deals and got out for confirming what Philip said. Knowing this show's penchant for bring back characters from the past I wouldn't be surprised.

[jhlipton]

On 3/15/2017 at 2:30 PM, Layne said:

That shows that he feels guilty for getting his friends in trouble. Not for killing an innocent woman.

I wouldn't necessarily call Sinclair "innocent".  She was badgering him over an incident that he had very little control of (he didn't witness a crime at Rape Lake, only heard of it, and, again, wanted to call the police, but his father told him not to.  And calling his dad first is what defense attorneys say you should do -- call for a lawyer before you call the cops).  She kept at him as he was grieving and angry and confused about his dad's suicide.  She walked right behind his car as if daring him to run her over.

He was wrong to do so, but I'd call his crime manslaughter, not murder.

[truthaboutluv]

On 3/17/2017 at 4:55 PM, jhlipton said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Sinclair "innocent".  She was badgering him over an incident that he had very little control of (he didn't witness a crime at Rape Lake, only heard of it, and, again, wanted to call the police, but his father told him not to.  And calling his dad first is what defense attorneys say you should do -- call for a lawyer before you call the cops).  She kept at him as he was grieving and angry and confused about his dad's suicide.  She walked right behind his car as if daring him to run her over.

He was wrong to do so, but I'd call his crime manslaughter, not murder.

That is not how I remember that scene. Asher confronted Sinclair, essentially blaming her for his dad's suicide because things came to a head when she came after Asher to help take down Annalise, and used the old rape case. Which of course led to Annalise, with Frank's help, exposing all of Asher's father's dirty secrets. Sinclair had no time for that bullshit from Asher and basically told him his daddy wasn't worth crap anyway and walked away. She didn't walk right behind his car daring him to run her over. She turned and was walking towards her car with her back completely to Asher. Asher was grieving his father and was bitter and pissed at Sinclair's comments about said father and so he ran her down. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[helenamonster]

Also, I think the fact that he deliberately put his car in reverse makes me less sympathetic to him. That was a conscious choice. In the heat of the moment, sure, but it was one extra step that he had to think through before running her over. Also, the distance he backed up was pretty substantial. He had ample time to cool off, and chose not to.

[possibilities]

Yeah, I've been really pissed off, and I've been provoked, and I've been done wrong by others in some pretty intense ways. And I've never killed anyone. Making a choice to back your car over someone is a pretty scary and extreme thing to do, even in the heat of the moment when someone is taunting you or insulting a loved one. If people reacting that way was normal, the world would be littered with bloody corpses to a much greater degree than it already is.

This show kind of normalizes horrific behavior, but if you think about it, what Asher did was extremely upsetting. That they then threw her corpse off a balcony makes it even worse. I mean... wow.

And in season one the rest of the group burned and dismembered and threw a corpse in a dumpster. I thought Sam was despicable, way worse than Sinclair (and I hated Sinclair). I gave Wes a pass for accidentally killing him. But the show went out of its way to make the subsequent corpse disposal extremely gruesome and it's kind of disturbing that these people were capable of doing that, and are as functional as they are after the fact.

...and that we all watch and root against the people trying to convict them of ... something.... because honestly they're guilty as hell.

[jhlipton]

I think to a major extent I try to rationalize Asher's crime because I want to like the dude.  I want to believe that his killing Sinclair wasn't that bad (Can you say "cognitive dissonance"?  I knew you could!)  I think part of it was that he had been innocent before then (his involvement at Rape Lake was morally questionable, but it was far from criminal).  Oh, well, at least he's still not at Frank or Bonnie level of evil...

[Milaxx]

On 3/19/2017 at 4:32 AM, possibilities said:

And in season one the rest of the group burned and dismembered and threw a corpse in a dumpster. I thought Sam was despicable, way worse than Sinclair (and I hated Sinclair). I gave Wes a pass for accidentally killing him. But the show went out of its way to make the subsequent corpse disposal extremely gruesome and it's kind of disturbing that these people were capable of doing that, and are as functional as they are after the fact.

This is why I never minded Connor's erratic behavior. I know many saw it as whinging, but really they did a horrible thing, they should be falling apart and dysfunctional.

17 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I think to a major extent I try to rationalize Asher's crime because I want to like the dude.  I want to believe that his killing Sinclair wasn't that bad (Can you say "cognitive dissonance"?  I knew you could!)  I think part of it was that he had been innocent before then (his involvement at Rape Lake was morally questionable, but it was far from criminal).  Oh, well, at least he's still not at Frank or Bonnie level of evil...

His involvement with that rape was indeed criminal. He not only looked the other way, but he then had it covered up. That's about as awful as you can get.