S01.E08: Invisible Self

[hincandenza]

I think you put it beautifully, @stillshimpy; it's a frustrating show, but also a pretty (odd) "fairy tale".

[stillshimpy]

Thank you, hincandenza, that's kind of you to take the time to say and I appreciate it.  

Also, I personally think Brit Marling is so beautiful, she looks as if she tumbled off of Mt. Olympus but I was particularly impressed by how she could almost look like an entirely different person from different angles.   

I agree, it could be very frustrating at points.  

One of those areas was that whereas it was made obvious that Alice Krige's character really wanted someone to be dependent on her -- because that's what she associated with being loved, that only those that need you for everything, can truly love you in her worldview -- the very undefined nature of what her adoptive father understood about her dreams, his belief in her, went largely unaddressed.   When he nodded to her, allowing her to run to her death basically, it made me wonder if her mother wasn't the person responsible for that tracking bracelet vs. any kind of authority.  

There were a couple of rather sloppy parallels between Prairie's adoptive mother (Borg Queen, ahoy!  Never a good sign) and Hap.  

French touched on that a bit, that she came back because there was something about her home there and what it meant to her.  Her mother was controlling in a way that is not good for anyone.  

Someone in the very beginning of the thread wondered why Prairie jumped off the bridge:  she was trying to drown, I think, to get back to Kahtoun.  I think she believed that if she had the five doing the ....whatever we're calling that....Jazzercize for Angels, or Tai Chi most likely to rupture a disk...then she would be able to get back to Homer and the other captives but initially, I think she was simply trying to find a way to drown (as that had been her path to the other side).  

I agree, it was a sometimes needlessly murky narrative but I liked it despite its flaws. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[hincandenza]

No problem! :)  I do think it was deeply flawed in many ways, but I'm willing to look past that as are you; I think I said it earlier, that if this had been six seasons of Lost-like "WTF?!?"-ery, it would have been infuriating, but as an 8 episode mini-series it was a taste of something a little different than normal TV.  And as a fairy tale about faith, about family, and I think strongly about our own media habits and relationships, it had a certain surreal beauty.

That said, I hope it doesn't come back for a season 2- or that if it does, it be a completely different story altogether that doesn't try to build on these very shaky foundations of a mytharc.  The beauty of long-tail media and on-demand streaming is that we are both spoiled as viewers/consumers, as well as surprised by things that would never and honestly should never be seen as mainstream popular must-watch shows.  I'd rather we get occasional weirdness than yet another formulaic show about a gritty detective with a haunted past*.

 

* (By the way, if you've never seen the mad photoshop genius that is LiarTownUSA, I highly recommend an amusing scroll through his fake Netflix title pages).

[Guest]

I agree with you both, overall.  I didn't love the ending and I've made fun of it plenty but at least it was fresh.  I enjoyed the ride more than Stranger Things, too.  
I think she could've been in the subway the whole time, though.  Homeless people can live down there and would have the same physical issues as a captive underground, if they didn't take care of themselves or get out much.  And her being a missing person wouldn't preclude it.  How would cops know who she was down there, or why would they care, if she's not breaking laws?  I don't think they compare buskers to missing persons database photos or anything like that.  

[ghoulina]

I just finished this and I apologize, but I want to get my thoughts out before reading others. I was surprised, but I really really liked this. I was sucked in at first and found it hard to stop watching. A few of the middle episodes had me giving it the side eye and preparing for a big let down at the end. I got the exact opposite. 

I found the final episode to be incredibly powerful and moving (pun intended). Those "movements" (anyone else feel like they're doing them when coming in out of the snow? No? Just me?) were so awkward and bizarre that they really put me off at first. But when the shooter came into the cafeteria, I immediately knew what they had to do. As all the boys looked at each other, and then BBA (of course she went back for them!), I was nodding vigorously - "do it! do it!" When they began, I was in tears. It was so beautiful, I can't even explain how it made me feel. But I've never seen anything like this show. 

I will say, it reminded me a bit of one of my favorite books of all time, A Prayer for Owen Meany. I'm hoping someone has read this and can pick up what I'm getting at. Because even though the book is decades old, I don't want to give anything away. But I felt like movements weren't really this big power or anything. Maybe they didn't heal, maybe they didn't save. But in that moment, they distracted the shooter and they saved the students in the cafeteria. It was like Prairie was preparing them for something this whole time, but it was totally different from what she THOUGHT she was preparing them for. There WAS a supernatural element to it, but not at all what we/she had been thinking. I liked it.

As for her ordeal - what was real, what was not.....I honestly have no idea. I have a million questions, but I do not feel let down whatsoever about the ambiguous ending. And I normally would. So I think they did an amazing job. The storytelling and the connections was what mattered here, and the "what ifs" about her past are left for us to dissect or just not worry about.

I tend to think she really was held hostage somewhere. But maybe there were no experiments. Maybe there were no other people. Maybe she invented all of this to help her live down there, to not feel so alone. But maybe everything she told them did happen, and the books were just her way of trying to better understand things and feel connected to her life back there. It really doesn't matter to me, but I think it will be fun to explore the possibilities and see what other people think about it.

I'm really glad I stuck with this. It was a good one.  

[Guest]

A Prayer for Owen Meany is one of my favorite books, too!  Crazy.  And what's odd is I can't even vocalize why I love it.  I didn't connect it here, but I can kind of see a little similarity overall.  

Have you read Life of Pi?  That's another favorite of mine and this one did remind me of that quite a bit at the end, which several of us mentioned.  Even the Pi movie is quite good.  

I have to admit I did tear up a bit at the cafeteria scene, despite being a little disappointed at the ending, but more the lack of closure and some of the details.  And I have never teared up at This Is Us even, so I'm not a teary one. 

[stillshimpy]

I cry just thinking about the ending of A Prayer for Owen Meany.  That remains one of the most ultimately moving books I have ever read.  Wow, did that ever click when you mentioned it, ghoulina and I started crying all over again.  

I cried at the end of The OA also.  It wasn't perfect but it still gained emotional access to me.  I similarly haven't shed a tear watching this is us.  I haven't even gotten choked up because nothing that has happened on This is Us has surprised me and to me, the most powerful stories are the ones that gain emotional access without permission, without being predictable.  This story was not predictable and to this day, part of the reason I love Irving's Owen Meany is I never saw the end coming and I remember crying so hard when I read it, my chest hurt from crying.  

Do you all remember the movie Dad?  It was terrible, so emotionally manipulative, so emotions-by-the-numbers and it practically stood on top of you and screamed "CRY!! THIS IS MOVING!! CRY!!! SO SAD!! We're playing you like an emotional violin!"  and that always just leaves me cold, worse still, can amuse me, or actively ticks me off.  I'm mentioning that because this was the opposite of that.  

I don't what the true parts of Prairie's story are but she left blind and she came back with her sight.  She knew something was happening at that school or else she had amazing timing on a guess.   That final movement reminded me of closing the eyes on a corpse, by the way.   I think that's what she understood when she woke up, told her dad she understood what it meant and then ran away.   The only way for her to get to where she was going was to die.   

I don't think she was in that subway for 7 years, though.  A man just recently put a go-pro on his guide dog to show the world how much abuse guide dogs are subjected to because their owners can't see the perpetrators.  She was blind when she left, it's never suggested that she had hysterical blindness.  She regained her sight at some point.  If had just been an attack in the subway, the hospital would have been trying to figure out who she was.  She'd have to live somewhere because those transit cops weren't just going to pretend she wasn't there and not to put too fine a point on it, but a beautiful blind woman in the subways for 7 years would not fare well at all, you know?  

I don't know what was true there and what wasn't but I do think someone had her.  The FBI ...uh...whatever he was, just popping up in Prairie's house when French was in there indicates they were watching the house.  So they seemed to think she'd been taken captive.  

To add to the overall surreal feeling of it all, I nearly fell over when that was supposed to be Michigan.   Does any part of Michigan look like that? I felt like that was a purposefully strange thing too.  A lot of the story seemed designed to keep the audience off-balance throughout.  I really liked that, also.  

Edited February 3, 2017 by stillshimpy

[paramitch]

I'm intrigued that the movements were what put so many people off that in many cases they simply could no longer take the story seriously, because the movements never bothered me at all. I thought they were beautiful and that the actors committed to them fiercely -- all of them -- so for me that ensured that it never took me out of the story. And I thought they were powerful in succession -- a kind of dance.

In fact, for me they really make that final 5 minutes of the final episode. When those four kids and Betty stand and face the shooter with nothing but courage, love, and a deep belief in something greater than themselves -- that these movements OA gave them are somehow divine -- I sat there and cried like a damn baby.

The ending of this show is one of the most powerful moments of any TV show I have ever watched and I don't think I'll ever forget it.

Did the rest of the show live up to those final moments? Well, no, not really. I found it occasionally slow, oppressive, and frustrating. But man, oh, man, I came to love and care about those characters, and I adored the ending. I wouldn't change a thing.

On 12/18/2016 at 3:51 PM, bilgistic said:

I wept at the end, and I have a charred pile of ashes where my heart should be.

Me too. And I'm with you on thinking this was better than "Stranger Things," which I ultimately thought was a pretty misogynistic, overpraised mashup of 80s tributes, although the cast was terrific. For me, I thought this was flawed but far more original in conception (and even the Atom Egoyanish aspects felt more like homages to a particular kind of filmmaking than to specific moments).

On 12/18/2016 at 7:45 PM, Infie said:

Also, regardless of whether the dance got anyone anywhere, the actors really pulled that off.  Holy crap - great unison and (as earlier poster wrote) absolute commitment.  Well done.

I agree. I got actual goosebumps in those moments in the cafeteria.

On 12/18/2016 at 9:09 PM, madam magpie said:

The dancing/movements were absolutely ridiculous. I'd have really enjoyed this if not for that.

This seems to be a common refrain, and I'm puzzled by it. In a story about potential angels, afterlives, premonitions, resurrections, and more, why is the idea of a series of precise physical repeated movements that unlock something magical/divine ridiculous?

On 12/20/2016 at 8:29 AM, RedHackle said:

I thought the 5 movements were gorgeous - it was like a cross between yoga, a Haka, and Twyla Tharp.  As someone else here noted, it's not so much the movements themselves as it was how fully all the actors committed to them.

As for the other stuff - whether it happened or didn't, or if the five movements stopped the shooter or just distracted him - it doesn't matter. Story works either way for me.

That was pretty much how I felt, as well.

On 12/22/2016 at 3:46 PM, Grommet said:

I'm not spiritual or religious, so I guess what I liked was how the 5 supported her and each other. The actors really did commit in that cafeteria scene and I thought it was a fitting ending.  

That was what got me as well -- the growing sense that these five people had become a family with OA, that there was love and companionship there among  each of these disconnected, yearning people.

On 12/23/2016 at 6:13 PM, saoirse said:

I think in the end, it made all of the five (Betty, Steve, Buck, Jesse, and French) better people, in different ways.

That was probably the most powerful thread for me in the entire show -- the ways in which the two groups -- the prisoners, and OA's group in the abandoned house -- became family, unhesitating and absolutely committed to supporting one another. The show did a beautiful job of conveying a particular kind of loneliness that connected each of the characters in the group.

On 1/29/2017 at 10:11 AM, stillshimpy said:

I'm okay with that.  I'm okay with having watched a very odd fairytale that was seemingly more about how people can save each other.   I don't know what the full truth of Prairie's story was but in Homer's "I swallowed a sea creature" NDE he was running through what looked like a medical facility with tile on the walls.  I think that's where Prairie was meant to be in the scene where she says, "Homer?"

I personally liked this series a lot more than Stranger Things and it truly was weirder than hell.   I have to give it up for the actors who were just all in on those purposefully bizarre dance moves.   They had to be stranger than hell because actual faith is....for those who have it...it's senseless stuff but it is very real to those that have it.   No matter how bizarre it sounds to those of us on the outside of it and I think that's what the ultimate point of the story was.  

They didn't know whether or not Prairie was telling the truth.  They didn't know what to believe but she'd helped each of them find their way out of their own darkness and in the end, they had faith....and it did do something.  Whether or not it was connected to anything in other dimensions or a god source or what....it either distracted the shooter or it stopped the harm or....something.    

Beautifully put -- I would agree that this was a very odd, fragile, grim little fairytale. I'm glad I watched it, even if I really hope this was the absolute ending, boom, kaput, whoosh. I can't imagine it going forward and am not sure I'd want it to. I like having questions about the ending while also feeling very satisfied with the outcome. The tangible and warm connection among Betty, Steve, Buck, Jesse, and French really moved me in the end -- I found it incredibly moving, gorgeous and powerful. One of those "Wow, I will never forget this" moments of precision and bravery and beauty. I had grown to care so much about those kids and Betty, and to see them look at one another and then stand up and be heroes like that, in total conviction, in front of a guy with a machine gun -- nothing between them and bullets but a crazy belief in something divine... it absolutely made me cry.

The symmetry, the unison, all in eerie silence with that unshakable, fierce desire to avert tragedy -- I can forgive a show a lot when it can give me moments of such power and beauty. It was a deeply satisfying ending for me.

On 1/29/2017 at 2:53 PM, stillshimpy said:

Also, I personally think Brit Marling is so beautiful, she looks as if she tumbled off of Mt. Olympus but I was particularly impressed by how she could almost look like an entirely different person from different angles.

I agree, it could be very frustrating at points.  

One of those areas was that whereas it was made obvious that Alice Krige's character really wanted someone to be dependent on her -- because that's what she associated with being loved, that only those that need you for everything, can truly love you in her worldview -- the very undefined nature of what her adoptive father understood about her dreams, his belief in her, went largely unaddressed.   When he nodded to her, allowing her to run to her death basically, it made me wonder if her mother wasn't the person responsible for that tracking bracelet vs. any kind of authority.  

Brit Marling is gorgeous -- she has a wonderful strong face, and with that straight nose and those straight brows, she looks like a statue. 

I loved the final scene with her father. Scott Wilson is a marvelous actor. Without him I would have abandoned "The Walking Dead" far far sooner than I did. I also have loved Alice Krige since she was an ingenue. I remember being a kid and thinking she was so beautiful in "Ghost Story."

But the entire cast I thought was really excellent, and I especially liked seeing so many new faces too. And among those I did recognize, I thought Emory Cohen was lovely as Homer (much much better than his turn on "Smash"), and it was great to see him do such fantastic and nuanced work here. And I never really watched much of "The Office," so it took me about two episodes to recognize Phyllis Smith, yelping, "It's SADNESS!"

On 2/2/2017 at 10:08 AM, ghoulina said:

I found the final episode to be incredibly powerful and moving (pun intended). Those "movements" (anyone else feel like they're doing them when coming in out of the snow? No? Just me?) were so awkward and bizarre that they really put me off at first. But when the shooter came into the cafeteria, I immediately knew what they had to do. As all the boys looked at each other, and then BBA (of course she went back for them!), I was nodding vigorously - "do it! do it!" When they began, I was in tears. It was so beautiful, I can't even explain how it made me feel. But I've never seen anything like this show. 

I will say, it reminded me a bit of one of my favorite books of all time, A Prayer for Owen Meany. I'm hoping someone has read this and can pick up what I'm getting at. Because even though the book is decades old, I don't want to give anything away. But I felt like movements weren't really this big power or anything. Maybe they didn't heal, maybe they didn't save. But in that moment, they distracted the shooter and they saved the students in the cafeteria. It was like Prairie was preparing them for something this whole time, but it was totally different from what she THOUGHT she was preparing them for. There WAS a supernatural element to it, but not at all what we/she had been thinking. I liked it.

You really touched on what moved me so much about the finale. It did have a very Prayer for Owen Meany feel to me, too. Especially that Prairie's premonition was imperfect , yet all the dominoes still fell precisely as they needed to.

On 2/2/2017 at 7:06 PM, stillshimpy said:

I don't what the true parts of Prairie's story are but she left blind and she came back with her sight.  She knew something was happening at that school or else she had amazing timing on a guess.   That final movement reminded me of closing the eyes on a corpse, by the way.   I think that's what she understood when she woke up, told her dad she understood what it meant and then ran away.   The only way for her to get to where she was going was to die.     

I found all those aspects really interesting as well, and they kept me going through the slower middle episodes. But as a finale, I was really delighted with this one and it really gave me everything I wanted from the show emotionally. In fact, more -- because I had expected the finale to be all about her escape, and instead it was really about all of the little moments leading to those five people becoming a single entity to face down a potential killer.

Did I think it was perfect? Heck, no. But I ended it a weepy emotional mess, and I thought it was beautifully acted and intriguingly done throughout. And I would have forgiven it even if it had been much worse for those final gorgeous ten minutes. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by paramitch
ack, missing text fixes

[Guest]

Why it didn't hit an Owen Meany chord for me was I think because Prairie caught a stray bullet rather than actually doing something heroic that caused her own death.  She could've stayed home and that scene would've played out the same.  She did inspire the people to stand up and dance but she didn't have to be there so her getting shot was kind of WTF to me rather than the poetic thing Owen's act was.  

Plus for Owen, death is death.  Prairie died all the time and in fact was trying to at times so the stakes were different.  I wasn't even sure if she did die at the end.  

[ghoulina]

Yea, I didn't really see Prairie as Owen, but more saw the movements as "the shot'. They had a real and true purpose in the end, it just wasn't what anyone was expecting.

[paramitch]

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Why it didn't hit an Owen Meany chord for me was I think because Prairie caught a stray bullet rather than actually doing something heroic that caused her own death.  She could've stayed home and that scene would've played out the same.  She did inspire the people to stand up and dance but she didn't have to be there so her getting shot was kind of WTF to me rather than the poetic thing Owen's act was.  

Plus for Owen, death is death.  Prairie died all the time and in fact was trying to at times so the stakes were different.  I wasn't even sure if she did die at the end.  

But for me it hits that note very precisely -- and in a very beautiful, crystalline way -- because it doesn't matter if Prairie is there.

Sure, it's dramatically satisfying. But no matter what -- she was still the architect. She did what she needed to do to prepare them -- and she saved them. And in turn saved countless lives in that cafeteria. The revelation of the bullet broke my heart and yet I was still euphoric -- everyone got what they wanted. Prairie got to die and (maybe) return and find her family and Homer.

But most importantly -- she saved those kids. She saved that school. She did exactly what Owen did. She was absolutely the reason Everyone Lived. It's just that she was the sacrifice. Like Owen.

And -- dramatically -- I do think she had to be present. She had to be there.  And it was necessary, as she was part of them, and just as much because she could then witness what she had built and done. And -- JUST as importantly, if not more so, show the kids, "I did this -- we did this -- look what we did! -- and now you are safe."

Second part: those are all assets for me. I like not knowing. Because I was a lot more invested in saving those sweet lost boys and Betty, than I was in whether Prairie reached Homer (although of course I hope she did -- and I think she did).

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Yea, I didn't really see Prairie as Owen, but more saw the movements as "the shot'. They had a real and true purpose in the end, it just wasn't what anyone was expecting.

But in this case Prairie herself was "the shot." She taught them the movements and moments that saved their lives, and many lives. Which is also the subtext for the show -- who are we? What can we do? What are we willing to do for others? Boom.

Elsewhere, @stillshimpy brilliantly noted what a happy aftermath for these characters would unexpectedly encounter and I agree... Betty would no longer be fired (as if! no way -- not running back TOWARD the shooter to protect her kids!), Steve would be happy, Buck, Jesse and French would be admired and acclaimed. French would get his scholarship without the icky strings (and God, hopefully go far far way from that toxic mom). Buck would continue to transition on a national and very loved stage. Jesse would discover himself as maybe worth more than that night's drug trip.

I ended this show with so much affection for it, and even more so for its characters. I'm a sucker for characters. Sometimes the best shows and movies, for me, are about who I met. Did I like meeting them? Was I glad I got to know them? I remember talking about "The Imitation Game" with a friend and saying, "I know it was sad, but I was just so glad to meet him [Turing] and that's what I'll remember."

The same thing here. For me, despite the grimness and loneliness of the first 7 episodes, man, did episode 8 deliver. And I wish nothing but love for those characters left behind. I grew to adore them all. 

[ShadowHunter]

I only finished the series 2 days ago so to hear the S2 announcement today was great. I enjoyed the series even though I didn't love everything. I believe OA and her story unless I am proven wrong next season. I do wonder where did they all go to the bathroom in all that time?  I did think the dance movements they did was a bit silly but in the finale it did not bother me. To see the group all come together in the moment and know to do it was great.

I was surprised Hap let Prairie/OA go though.  I def thought she was Teachers pet but then again he did let her go that was kinder then still being locked away. I know what he told her right before he did but I never thought he just let her go. I suppose it makes sense since she was trying to get back to Homer and the others. 

I loved all the kids even Steve though him punching that kid in the throat was horrible. That was the first episode by the finale I felt he had changed a bit. I even felt bad for him when he was chasing the ambulance screaming for OA.  He can run fast because the rest of the group started to run with him then I could not even see them lol.  

Some parts of the series did drag though. Towards the end of the show I liked OA and her interaction with the group better then the parts where they would flashback to her past.

Edited February 8, 2017 by ShadowHunter

[madam magpie]

On 2/5/2017 at 1:16 AM, paramitch said:

This seems to be a common refrain, and I'm puzzled by it. In a story about potential angels, afterlives, premonitions, resurrections, and more, why is the idea of a series of precise physical repeated movements that unlock something magical/divine ridiculous?

Because it looked weird and silly and not like something real people would do. It also didn't fit with the overall tone of the show. I can buy a lot, but when the action crosses into weird, silly territory, it breaks the narrative spell and I'm unable to suspend disbelief anymore.

[paramitch]

@madam magpie, to me the movements make a lot of sense, and I didn't find them either weird or silly. I also thought they were dramatic and beautiful to watch.

To me, there's nothing weirder about divine secrets being locked away in a series of physical movements or patterns than if they were found in a series of words or symbols. In fact, the physical movements could be argued as offering greater security against inadvertent discovery by the unworthy or unprepared.

So it worked for me on a dramatic and logical level. But I do get that they didn't work for everyone.

[kieyra]

I suspect part of the problem is that many of us who are not especially interested in dance or choreography have only seen that kind of ... emotionally overwrought? ... physicality when someone's amateur "interpretive dance" routine is being used as a sight gag in a more comedic context. 

[Sakura12]

For me the fact that all the actors fully committed to dancing is what made it slightly better. If they had half-assed them it would've been much worse. The thing was interpretive dance is, it is kind of fun to do it. We did that in my dance class in high school and just moving your body around however you want is fun. However watching someone else do it is boring and they look silly. I guess I get that Brit Marling was trying to visualize the "power" of the NDE's, having them stand around staring at each other wouldn't be as interesting. 

I enjoyed this show despite the silly dancing and am looking forward to find out more in the second season. 

[kieyra]

25 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The creators were pretty adamant in the media that this wasn't 'interpretive dance', I think.  But I'm with you.  

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/oa-creators-defend-movements-959026

A coworker of mine googled up some buzz about the show.  All I remember is supposedly there was braille used throughout the show, including on Khatun's face and the FBI wall.  Here are some others--

https://moviepilot.com/p/the-oa-easter-eggs/4177561

I think I'm more confused after Batmanglij's quote. I can't make out why he's saying it's  rude to call it interpretive dance. He says Heffington is one of the foremost artists working in "that space". I assume "that space" = interpretive dance. And Heffington choreographed the show. 

In other words, it's like he's saying "it's rude to call it interpretive dance; we had the foremost interpretive dance artist do the choreography". 

I might be misreading though, wording is ambiguous.

[Sakura12]

Okay we'll call it "Interpretive Movements" then.  

[kieyra]

I'm going to start saying "I expect more from serious people" at work.

[kieyra]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm sick and bored, and the sizzurp just kicked in, so whatever.

 I know Ryan Heffington because he's been on RuPaul's Drag Race, but I didn't know he's like an A-list pop choreographer for music videos. (Again, I don't know jack about dance.)

Thing is, some of his other works seem to be described as interpretive too, including the "Chandelier" video. So I wonder if the creators' problem is one of these two things:

1) They know it's interpretive dance at its core, but they don't like that interpretive dance is sometimes the butt of a joke. In which case, maybe what they mean is "Don't call it interpretive dance like that's a bad thing". 

2) They are irritated because calling it interpretive dance is reductive and strips away the supernatural meaning they want it to carry in the show. 

But I don't see how either of these were avoidable, if the average Jill see it and thinks "interpretive dance" and maybe has one more link in their heads that calls forth the memory of an interpretive dance routine played for laughs. (E.g., Big Lebowski.)

Disclaimers: I know this is months out from being topical. I wouldn't really know the line between "dance" and "interpretive dance" if it bit me. I only got sucked back in to the convo because I thought I recognized Heffington's name and I have a soft spot for anyone in the RuPaul's Drag Race orbit. Now I feel kind of bad; not sure if Heffington himself has shouldered some of the critique/snickering.

[KaveDweller]

On 2/26/2017 at 10:39 AM, kieyra said:

I think I'm more confused after Batmanglij's quote. I can't make out why he's saying it's  rude to call it interpretive dance. He says Heffington is one of the foremost artists working in "that space". I assume "that space" = interpretive dance. And Heffington choreographed the show. 

In other words, it's like he's saying "it's rude to call it interpretive dance; we had the foremost interpretive dance artist do the choreography". 

I might be misreading though, wording is ambiguous.

According to Google, interpretive dance is "a form of modern dance in which the dancer's movements depict an emotion or tell a story."  That seems to be pretty close to what's going on to me. But maybe I don't count as a "serious person."

I think his point may just be that he thinks people are making fun of the show and the movements. And some people are. But the act of calling it interpretive dance shouldn't be what he finds insulting.

[knaankos]

Based on these comments I must be in the minority here, but I actually found the middle episodes to be the most intriguing and not slow at all. The middle episodes had you guessing and had many possibilities open. Each episode ended on a great note that made you wonder what was up. 

The show peaked with Scott's resurrection scene. For me that was easily the moment of the season, as the beautiful power of the movements was shown and the way they look at Happ with defiance is great. (Great use of music too)

[KaveDweller]

13 hours ago, knaankos said:

Based on these comments I must be in the minority here, but I actually found the middle episodes to be the most intriguing and not slow at all. The middle episodes had you guessing and had many possibilities open. Each episode ended on a great note that made you wonder what was up. 

The show peaked with Scott's resurrection scene. For me that was easily the moment of the season, as the beautiful power of the movements was shown and the way they look at Happ with defiance is great. (Great use of music too)

I agree, the middle episodes were the most entertaining to me too. It was just the very end I thought was kinda dumb.

[jcin617]

So I just got around to watching this and finished it.   If OA's story wasn't real, what was the meaning of the scene where French was washing his face at OA's house and Homer's reflection was in the mirror?  

[rubinia]

I thought the movements were supposed to mirror whatever animal the person had to swallow in their NDE. Some of the movements Prairie made were bird-like, and Homer had one that looked like the fish's tail sticking out of his mouth. The ALS lady had that motion of the "V" over her eyes that made me think of a moth's antennae.

[zenrartine]

Like a lot of other fans I was finding Alfonso's  discovery of the books from Amazon hard to accept (and not only because I'm an independent bookseller disappointed  in Prairie's choice to support megastores online instead of her local indie).  

I am now convinced that the books are NOT proof that Prairie was lying. She might still be lying, but the books are way too flimsy a piece of evidence for the script( or her friends)  to rely on to indict her. 

The way I figure it those books were not for Prairie they were intended as gifts for the boys. Maybe a way to reach out and connect with them or to deepen their understanding of the story she was telling. Also to give them roles;

 "The Oligarchs" was for Alfonzo to show him how to work the system  ( in a new paradigm- like the new rich did under the Soviet regime) and become successful  as he wanted to be. 

The NDE book was for Jesse,  to show him that there are other trips to take than the artificial ones he was taking with drugs, astral journeys to help him find some peace about his mother's passing. 

The angel book was, of course,  for Buck who recognized that and accepted the gift in his own way. 

I think the clincher that proves my theory is Homer's "the Illiad", which was meant for Steve.

A lot of people online were thinking that the producers made a big mistake in choosing that instead of  Homer's Odyssey, because if this is about Prairie the Odyssey was obviously her story. 

But these books were not for Prairie. It'd already been established that she didn't know how to read Latin script very well. Before going blind she was reading in Russian which has a whole different script,  Cyrillic, and after that she read braille. She mentions that after she escaped she stayed with some other people for a while but I don't think she spent her time there learning to speed read english. When she gets home she doesn't write things in a journal, instead she uses a camera as a jounaling device and to create a "letter" to Homer. She uses her Apple's  voice command and accessibility features as if she were still blind. She hasn't yet learned to comfortably navigate the outside world as a sighted person. The books are brand-new not even cracked open,  not read at all, seemingly. She's only been in town for a few days before she starts forming her group I don't think she had time to get familiar enough with latin script to be able to plow through those books and concoct the story she made.

I think the fourth book, "the Illiad" was meant for Steve. He is their Achilles, he's got a warrior's talents, strength, quickness, fierceness, but also THE fatal flaw.   Just like Achilles he's given to anger and arrogance and makes very rash choices. He has not been able to acknowledge his vulnerability,  he wants to connect,  be loved, A part of something. 

His lashing out at the choir boy was because he was deeply hurt by the girl rejecting him, reducing him to "f**k buddy" when it was clear he was trying to use that act as an opening to get to know her. Yes, it was deeply dysfunctional and scary to see him do that. But I think it also showed the intensity of his need and his fear of that dependency, his violent denial of that need was making him into a monster. He  losed his dog of war upon Prairie and she subdued it. If he could fully recognize his Achilles' heel (that he cares enough that it hurts, that he IS connected, the he is not invulnerable and actually does not want to be disconnected enought to be so). If he can accept it,  the knowledge of it would probably save him. He has the potential to be a hero but he's so close to giving in and being destroyed by that flaw.

I don't think Betty got a gift of a book because she's an adult woman like Prairie and they're guides/mentors to the boys. Betty doesn't need a book to be taught,  she doesnt need Prairie in that way . Perhaps she even helped Prairie get these particular books for the boys. When the boys discover them and make their judgement about Prairie Betty is not part of that discussion. She's probably been restricted from seeing any of them and hasn't been at school because she's under suspension and being fired. So there's no possibility of her just saying , "no, she wasnt lying! Prairie and I got those books for you boys." That meeting in the parking lot was probably the end if it for them. They probably never spoke about the books to anyone else.

I think it's a simpler solution than the  conspiracy theory that the FBI guy, Elias, planted them in the home in a bid to discredit Prairie. A pretty shaky plan. There were many more direct ways for him to do this than shoving books under her bed hoping somone might break in and find them.

 I think his being in the deserted house is still suspicious and he probably played nice with Alfonso in order not to be called to account for his being there. The whole thing with the books was just convenient for him so that he could distract Alfonso from the real question,"why are you here?", and instead overwhelm him with an improvised psych session and that supportive speechifying. 

It's also more poignant, a punch to the gut that something meant as a gift ended up breaking their faith in her. They'll probably feel like hell if they ever find out, realising the grounds of their friendship and trust was so fragile.

Edited April 5, 2017 by zenrartine

[Paloma]

46 minutes ago, zenrartine said:

I am now convinced that the books are NOT proof that Prairie was lying. She might still be lying, but the books are way too flimsy a piece of evidence for the script( or her friends)  to rely on to indict her. 

The way I figure it those books were not for Prairie they were intended as gifts for the boys. Maybe a way to reach out and connect with them or to deepen their understanding of the story she was telling. Also to give them roles

zenrartine, this is an excellent theory--I never thought of this possibility but your explanation makes a lot of sense.

[rho]

So I finally watched this. I'd seen Sound of My Voice and The East so I kind of knew what I was getting into. I was traveling so I had a full day to kill and binged the whole thing in one sitting. I agree with a lot of people that feel slighted by the lack of answers. And whoever called it a vanity project totally hit the nail on the head.

At this point I don't care if Prairie/Nina/OA made the whole thing up, was actually traveling through dimensions, is mentally unwell, etc. Mostly I want to know about literally everyone else but her character. I felt the Russian storyline was totally unnecessary and uninteresting. Any accident could have caused her blindness. This probably makes me a bad feminist but I wish the story had been told from Homer's perspective instead. He also had a NDE where he encountered another dimension. Plus he's the star quarterback, people will notice he goes missing and if he came back the cult leader premise would be way more interesting. 

Or Rachel? What the fuck's going on with her? She never gets a movement and we know virtually nothing about her. Instead of blowing 8 hours on boring ass misdirection, why not give us like a modicum of back story on the girl, besides having one or two brothers who may or may not be handicapped and/or deceased. Or Renata who grew up in Cuba and has a thing for younger dudes? Or Scott who may or may not be a Canadian heir? Maybe he got heavy into drugs and landed in Philly with dreadlocks. 

All of these people are more interesting than Prairie and it comes across as totally self-serving for Marling. Maybe I'd have a little more respect if she didn't just play a carbon copy of her previous characters in every film she writes. Would be super cool if she totally miscalculated it all and Prairie finally pulls an August. Then season two is the small town Michigan kids and BBA piecing together her story to help the FBI track down HAP (who may be a mad scientist or just a creepy serial kidnapper).

[iMonrey]

I just binge-watched this whole thing in 2 days and have mixed feelings about it. At the end of the day I'm not a fan of the type of story that leaves you hanging and then tells you to draw your own conclusions. I understand there's an audience for that sort of thing but I'm not it. I don't mind a few loose ends but by the end of the story I want to know what I just watched. I absolutely hated Life of Pi. 

On the other hand I admit this show had an emotional impact on me that other similar stories rarely do. The closing shot of Steve running after the ambulance begging "angel" to take him with her was profoundly moving to me. So the show really did a good job of making me care about these people - I have to give it that. I was certainly invested enough to watch the whole thing in 2 days. 

Quote

Let me start by saying that I think it's extremely lazy screenwriting to write a really vague ending and then say it's up the audience to interpret it (as the creators have said in interviews).

That's generally where I am too. So, the show succeeded in making me care, but it also left me frustrated because, like you, I don't care for that sort of gimmick. 

Quote

 There's an implicit agreement to me with these things that if the viewer invests 8 hours, she'll find out what happened.  

Same.

Quote

I do wonder where did they all go to the bathroom in all that time?

I distinctly remember seeing a bucket in one of the cells and assumed that was their purpose.

I didn't really mind the dance, or movements, or whatever you want to call them. I thought they were a bit silly at times but at the same time, they sort of worked. However, I admit that as a Monty Python fan, when the five all stood up to do them for the school shooter, my mind immediately went to "Confuse a Cat." 

"Let us taunt it. It may become so confused, it will make a mistake."

[Valmarmar]

I binged for 2 days, also, about 3 weeks ago.  I totally agree with Ghoulina's (upthread) take on this show.    The ending was very emotional for me, and what I felt after, stayed with me for days.  

[Parker]

On 12/18/2016 at 9:45 PM, Infie said:

To be fair, I don't think that the dance in the cafeteria 'solved' anything at all, aside perhaps from dumbfounding the shooter into immobility ,long enough for him to be tackled to the ground.

On the other hand, it *might* have opened the gate... or it might have done nothing and she went through the gate by dying again.

Fun either way, for me.

Also, regardless of whether the dance got anyone anywhere, the actors really pulled that off.  Holy crap - great unison and (as earlier poster wrote) absolute commitment.  Well done.

I think the point was not only did they have to do the movements, they had to do them with feeling.  And the situation created that atmosphere for that to happen. 

On 12/23/2016 at 0:24 PM, Silly Angel said:

Oh, wow. None of it was true? Glad we spent 6 freaking episodes in the nonexistent bunker. I want my time back. Can I do an interpretive dance to get it? Which four of you will join me?

That conclusion can not be reached conclusively by the last episode.  It is possible from what we saw that it all happened.

One possibility is that it was all in OA's mind.   And many things do seem to indicate that may be the case.

On the other hand, there are things that goes against that.  

Here are some of those...

Why did the FBI's agents say they knew more than she thought they did? 

...Perhaps, they knew of the experiments.

Why was the psychiatrist in her home without her parents or anyone there?

Hired by the FBI to keep tabs on OA maybe.

Why did he not come down on Alphonso for breaking into her house and was nice to him? 

He was breaking in too and didn't want to draw attention to that...or is it possible he was planting the books to make OA seem guilty of a fake story.

Why were those books there? 

They wouldn't have been bought before her disappearance because she was blind. 

How did she have enough time to purchase them, read them and make up that incredible story in just a matter of weeks?

Why was her gang of five behind her on the way to the ambulance?  Wouldn't the police have stopped them?  Almost like the cops couldn't see them. 

Did you notice they all had on burgundy?  No conclusion, just interesting.

Brit really likes being in and making these very provocative strange movies.

Check out her others.  They are interesting and also leave the viewer at the end to decide what really happened.