S01.E09: The Well-Tempered Clavier

[Gobi]

4 minutes ago, Stanner said:

I went back and checked these and I don't see, or hear, the resemblance. 

On another note, that definitely looks like Elsie. The asymmetrical nostrils seem the same. (This is before the attack and not Bernard's flashback.

 

All I can say is that they fooled me (the one on the train talking about going "full evil" starting with his second visit) and had me confused (the bounty hunter). It's not easy to see the face of either, particularly on the train, and I just assumed he was Ed Harris. Of course, that doesn't mean it was deliberate, could just show the poor qualities of my powers of observation.

[Netfoot]

26 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

AHA! 

Nope.  Grabbed the image posted earlier, rotated, resized, cropped, posted it back.  No freeze-framing here!  Not me...  

<whistling>

[Abernathy]

1 hour ago, ennui said:

The style of the posters changes (some are black and white, some are black/white/red), and the name of the criminal changes; sometimes it's Hector Escaton, not always. The theory is that the wanted posters indicate the time period. I usually only notice the wanted poster at the beginning of Maeve's day, when it's Hector.

I ve watched every episode twice (first time in my life i did that with any TV show) and never noticed that, I also only noticed Hector's poster...

[Abernathy]

41 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I'm going with the theory (not my own, so it could be correct) that Arnold is going to be the "General" that Dolores kills in the original massacre. Of course, she may have pulled the trigger, but did Ford put the gun in her hand?

About that:

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5e24ag/episode_8_spoilers_we_now_know_what_truth_the/?st=iw2ra4nr&sh=8856ed0d

[Teitr Styrr]

I don't think that's Bernarnold either, but cmon, that guy looks more like Bernarnold than Teddy, MiB, Ford, William, Logan or you know just about anyone else on the show.

[ennui]

I suspect that a lot of characters are in limbo while the actors negotiate their contracts. There was no guarantee that the show would run past one season, so there are options to clarify.

I think the horse was blindfolded so that it would not run until MiB woke up and had a chance to escape. 

People keep speculating that Ford and Arnold had a violent disagreement. Imho, business partners and developers can disagree without killing each other. Happens every day (the not-killing part).

[Gobi]

3 minutes ago, ennui said:

 

People keep speculating that Ford and Arnold had a violent disagreement. Imho, business partners and developers can disagree without killing each other. Happens every day (the not-killing part).

In real life, you're correct. But in this show, Ford is not at all adverse to killing people, or at least to having a host do it for him.

[ennui]

No, but Ford does seem to harbor some affection for his old partner. Do we think Ford killed Arnold and then had regrets? 

[izabella]

26 minutes ago, Teitr Styrr said:

I don't think that's Bernarnold either, but cmon, that guy looks more like Bernarnold than Teddy, MiB, Ford, William, Logan or you know just about anyone else on the show.

I think it is supposed to be Arnold - a younger Arnold, the age that Arnold was when he died.  Arnold would have been younger when he died, just like Ford was younger then, too.  But Ford would make Bernard look older because Arnold would have aged some (had he lived) by the time Ford built Bernard.

Edited December 1, 2016 by izabella

[Honey]

I hate the Maeve story line, and I hope she either gets incinerated, or that Ford is luring all the sentient hosts into a trap.

 

I didn't care much for Bernard either.

[Rumsy4]

On my rewatch, I noticed that Hector wasn't in any of the Wanted posters in the past.

I don't think Ford had Arnold killed.

[arc]

1 hour ago, okerry said:

I feel sure that it's a different actor - younger, for one thing - though with similar beard, race, etc. Whether it's actually supposed to be a younger Arnold is another question.

But the revealed full photo, once clear of Bernard's cognitive block, showed Jeffrey Wright looking like, exactly the same.

30 minutes ago, ennui said:

I suspect that a lot of characters are in limbo while the actors negotiate their contracts. There was no guarantee that the show would run past one season, so there are options to clarify.

Has that been said anywhere? Because typically TV shows sign up actors for 5-6 years when they sign in for the pilot. This is so actors don't try to renegotiate when a show is picked up. These contracts hold them to that long, but on the flip side that's no guarantee that they'll stay employed that long. But long story short, shows that get a second season typically do not have to worry about actor availability, except in weird situations like a very very late pickup where the show has released the actors.

[ennui]

27 minutes ago, arc said:

Has that been said anywhere?

Nope. I made it up. 

With modern series killing off main characters left and right, do they still sign actors to long term contracts? 

[arc]

22 minutes ago, ennui said:

Nope. I made it up. 

With modern series killing off main characters left and right, do they still sign actors to long term contracts? 

Oh yeah. Aside from Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins, I really doubt anyone in the cast had the juice to get a short contract.

It makes no difference to the studio, in case you thought the actors get paid more. I think they get paid on a per-season basis and if they're killed off in season 2, then they won't get paid for seasons 3-6 even if the show goes on and they had a six season contract.

Edited December 1, 2016 by arc

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, Honey said:

I hate the Maeve story line, and I hope she either gets incinerated, or that Ford is luring all the sentient hosts into a trap.

I didn't care much for Bernard either.

Geez, what'd androids ever do to you :-p?

[numbnut]

When Dolores flees after getting stabbed and gutted by Logan, is that the end of her journey with William? Unlike Maeve, Dolores's sentience didn't seem advanced enough to ignore gaping gut wounds, so shouldn't she be "dead"?

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

On my rewatch, I noticed that Hector wasn't in any of the Wanted posters in the past.

I don't think Ford had Arnold killed.

Yeah, I am surprised most people here assumes Ford had Bernard killed.  To me it would be more interesting if Bernard was able to convince (not command) "free thinking" Dolores to kill him, ie. set him free

[numbnut]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't think Ford had Arnold killed.

Yeah, I am surprised most people here assumes Ford had Bernard killed.  To me it would be more interesting if Bernard was able to convince (not command) "free thinking" Dolores to kill him, ie. set him free

I think Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold because Arnold wanted to destroy the park and Ford has no problem with killing people who get in his way. (Maybe Arnold was his first?) I also don't think the character was randomly named Robert Ford (the man who betrayed and killed his friend Jesse James).

Edited December 2, 2016 by numbnut

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I think Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold because Arnold wanted to destroy the park and Ford has no problem with killing people who get in his way. (Maybe Arnold was his first?) I also don't think the character was randomly named Robert Ford (the man who betrayed and killed his friend Jesse James).

I lean toward "Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold" because we've seen both Ford and Arnold (though we thought it was Bernard until it was confirmed this episode it was Arnold) talking with Dolores secretly.   There was something about the way Dolores answered the "Have you told anyone about our meetings?" question with "You told me not to," instead of with a "yes" or "no" that leads me to believe she was being used by both Arnold and Ford for their own ends, and though we don't know much about Arnold, we know Ford is capable of getting rid of those who get in his way.

[tenativelyyours]

Two things took me out of the episode in annoyance. 

1. First was Stubbs going off on his own.  It made no sense especially knowing someone had been tinkering with the robots, one slamming his head with a rock and then Clementine.  Yes that has been hand waved but since he is looking for Elsie I just found it a bit odd and overly convenient for the plot.  If the show starts having characters stop thinking logically a bit too much it becomes to contrived for me. 
2. Bigger though was Maeve taking control of Bernard.  Just found that way too contrived that Ford would go to the lengths to create Bernard and let the normal protocols be in place for anyone with directive initiatives be able to take over his control.  Plus I still find it rather stretches my credibility that the two low level techs could just assign her the protocols to such a level in the first place.  It sort of belies the fact that the whole tinkering with the bird was seen as forbidden and also was something that had to be cobbled together as it were and not with immediate or full access and yet suddenly they can give Maeve such complete authority.  It just seemed that is not running true to the various levels of access and authority that the others are defined by more than once.

I do worry that the show is trying to be a bit too clever.  But I don't like the new over used trend of unreliable narrators so maybe that is it in part.  But I also think that the show already shows tiny little cracks in its own established plausibility as it tries to be a little too tricky and clever.  I don't want to see good story writing take a back seat to simply wanting to bewilder and then stun viewers for the sake of water cooler buzz.  That gets old fast.  For me at least.  Real fast.  And it doesn't manage to ever hold up past a season or two.  So this approach sort of sets it up for losing steam real fast unless we get the reveals and the timelines merge into one storyline in time for the season to end and the looming robot rebellion/freedom seems nigh. 

[phoenyx]

22 hours ago, numbnut said:

I think Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold because Arnold wanted to destroy the park and Ford has no problem with killing people who get in his way. (Maybe Arnold was his first?) I also don't think the character was randomly named Robert Ford (the man who betrayed and killed his friend Jesse James).

Who's Jesse James?

22 hours ago, izabella said:

I lean toward "Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold" because we've seen both Ford and Arnold (though we thought it was Bernard until it was confirmed this episode it was Arnold) talking with Dolores secretly.   There was something about the way Dolores answered the "Have you told anyone about our meetings?" question with "You told me not to," instead of with a "yes" or "no" that leads me to believe she was being used by both Arnold and Ford for their own ends, and though we don't know much about Arnold, we know Ford is capable of getting rid of those who get in his way.

Interesting theory.

21 hours ago, tenativelyyours said:

Two things took me out of the episode in annoyance. 

1. First was Stubbs going off on his own.  It made no sense especially knowing someone had been tinkering with the robots, one slamming his head with a rock and then Clementine.  Yes that has been hand waved but since he is looking for Elsie I just found it a bit odd and overly convenient for the plot.  If the show starts having characters stop thinking logically a bit too much it becomes to contrived for me. 
2. Bigger though was Maeve taking control of Bernard.  Just found that way too contrived that Ford would go to the lengths to create Bernard and let the normal protocols be in place for anyone with directive initiatives be able to take over his control.  Plus I still find it rather stretches my credibility that the two low level techs could just assign her the protocols to such a level in the first place.  It sort of belies the fact that the whole tinkering with the bird was seen as forbidden and also was something that had to be cobbled together as it were and not with immediate or full access and yet suddenly they can give Maeve such complete authority.  It just seemed that is not running true to the various levels of access and authority that the others are defined by more than once.

I admit it does seem like Stubbs may have been a bit cavalier about going off alone. But then, we're seeing this from the perspective of an audience that knows that one after another, characters go off alone to be offed by Team Ford. Personally, though, I'm much more interested in the results- for the first point, what's going to happen to Stubbs? Is Elsie still alive? 

As to Maeve, perhaps she hacked the Maze (Matrix?) a la Neo and now has root access. Still, since she's an android, and Ford isn't (atleast that we know of), if she ever confronted Ford, he may well have the advantage. For the record, I'm very happy that Bernard was able to confront Ford, even if he lost the confrontation.

[arc]

32 minutes ago, tenativelyyours said:

Plus I still find it rather stretches my credibility that the two low level techs could just assign her the protocols to such a level in the first place.  It sort of belies the fact that the whole tinkering with the bird was seen as forbidden and also was something that had to be cobbled together as it were and not with immediate or full access and yet suddenly they can give Maeve such complete authority.

No, neither Felix nor Sylvester should be able to hack Maeve like that, by the usual rules of their employment and the usual safeguards one would assume. But the bird thing showed that Felix has successfully exceeded the nominal bounds of what he can do and should be allowed to do. And Sylvester's off-the-books side gig as a "pimp" of robots similarly tells us that he too knows how to get around the usual security protocols within the park.

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Who's Jesse James?

Seriously? Jesse James is perhaps the most famous Western outlaw, bank and train robber.

9 hours ago, numbnut said:

When Dolores flees after getting stabbed and gutted by Logan, is that the end of her journey with William? Unlike Maeve, Dolores's sentience didn't seem advanced enough to ignore gaping gut wounds, so shouldn't she be "dead"?

I don't think that's the end of her journey with William. Looking at the damage she suffered from the stabbing, it was nothing that would stop a mechanical host, as she was at the time. What makes it remarkable is that she didn't "die" after such a wound, as she should have  been programmed to do. That would indicate that she was achieving sentience back then, and was probably the first to do so. Signs of that must have been what drew her to Arnold's attention, and why he warned her not to tell anyone else about their conversations.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Gobi
Content

[phoenyx]

18 hours ago, Gobi said:

Seriously? Jesse James is perhaps the most famous Western outlaw, bank and train robber.

The name sounded familiar but I couldn't pin it, thanks for clearing that up :-)

18 hours ago, Gobi said:

On 12/1/2016 at 7:48 PM, numbnut said:

When Dolores flees after getting stabbed and gutted by Logan, is that the end of her journey with William? Unlike Maeve, Dolores's sentience didn't seem advanced enough to ignore gaping gut wounds, so shouldn't she be "dead"?

I don't think that's the end of her journey with William. Looking at the damage she suffered from the stabbing, it was nothing that would stop a mechanical host, as she was at the time. What makes it remarkable is that she didn't "die" after such a wound, as she should have  been programmed to do. That would indicate that she was achieving sentience back then, and was probably the first to do so. Signs of that must have been what drew her to Arnold's attention, and why he warned her not to tell anyone else about their conversations.

She may not yet be dead (well, android dead), but I think she's going to die in Episode 10. The show may have even revealed -where- she's going to die. Back in episode 8, she goes to fill a canteen of water in a river for a dying soldier. As she looks at the river, she sees herself face down in it for a moment.

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, tenativelyyours said:

Bigger though was Maeve taking control of Bernard.  Just found that way too contrived that Ford would go to the lengths to create Bernard and let the normal protocols be in place for anyone with directive initiatives be able to take over his control.  Plus I still find it rather stretches my credibility that the two low level techs could just assign her the protocols to such a level in the first place.  It sort of belies the fact that the whole tinkering with the bird was seen as forbidden and also was something that had to be cobbled together as it were and not with immediate or full access and yet suddenly they can give Maeve such complete authority.  It just seemed that is not running true to the various levels of access and authority that the others are defined by more than once.

Technically, the 2 dum dums only had access to change her settings and they gave Maeve very high "intelligence" (can't remember the exact name of the setting).  This allowed Maeve to use 100% of her brain / CPU power.  That setting was never meant to be set that high to begin with precisely because what happened next.  

The super smart Maeve was able to learn about the inner works of the droids. She was the one that taught Felix how to turn her off, modify her core matrix, and rebooted her back.  She even commented that it would be complicated and asked if he was up for it.

I still did not get what the 2 dum dums get out of this arrangement with Maeve though.  That was the illogical part to me.  

[phoenyx]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Technically, the 2 dum dums only had access to change her settings and they gave Maeve very high "intelligence" (can't remember the exact name of the setting).  This allowed Maeve to use 100% of her brain / CPU power.  That setting was never meant to be set that high to begin with precisely because what happened next.  

The super smart Maeve was able to learn about the inner works of the droids. She was the one that taught Felix how to turn her off, modify her core matrix, and rebooted her back.  She even commented that it would be complicated and asked if he was up for it.

I still did not get what the 2 dum dums get out of this arrangement with Maeve though.  That was the illogical part to me.  

Sylvester was first seduced by Maeve, and then, when things got rough, he was brought into line with fear (remember she almost killed him). As to Felix, she's clearly working on his conscience. I mean come on, the guy risked his job to fix a robot bird, it's the obvious way to get him to help her :-p. 

[DarkRaichu]

21 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Sylvester was first seduced by Maeve, and then, when things got rough, he was brought into line with fear (remember she almost killed him). As to Felix, she's clearly working on his conscience. I mean come on, the guy risked his job to fix a robot bird, it's the obvious way to get him to help her :-p. 

Felix is the most illogical part.  There is a huge difference between repairing a malfunctioned bird and giving a host everything she asked for.

There has to be some other motivations behind Felix's actions and I hope it will be explained in episode 10.  Otherwise this is too big of logical hole for me to accept, considering what is happening next per the preview.  :P

ETA: and I am not talking about just ep 10 preview. There is a particular scene in "what's next" trailer that we have not seen in ep 1-9

Edited December 2, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Ellaria]

54 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Technically, the 2 dum dums only had access to change her settings and they gave Maeve very high "intelligence" (can't remember the exact name of the setting).  This allowed Maeve to use 100% of her brain / CPU power.  That setting was never meant to be set that high to begin with precisely because what happened next.  

The super smart Maeve was able to learn about the inner works of the droids. She was the one that taught Felix how to turn her off, modify her core matrix, and rebooted her back.  She even commented that it would be complicated and asked if he was up for it.

I still did not get what the 2 dum dums get out of this arrangement with Maeve though.  That was the illogical part to me.  

That setting = bulk apperception.

Something that I noticed on a re-watch: when Maeve demands that F&S adjust her core attributes, they notice that someone - with much higher clearance - has already made adjustments. Did we see who made those adjustments? Can we assume that it was Ford?

33 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Felix is the most illogical part.  There is a huge difference between repairing a malfunctioned bird and giving a host everything she asked for.

There has to be some other motivations behind Felix's actions and I hope it will be explained in episode 10.  Otherwise this is too big of logical hole for me to accept, considering what is happening next per the preview.  :P

I have another point of view on Felix. He is different than the other butchers/techs. In his spare time, he fixes malfunctioning birds instead of screwing robots in the stairwells. He is curious and naive; he is fascinated by these creations and the science behind it. I understand his interest in the power to restore life. 

Is it illogical? No. Incredibly stupid? Yes. It may have been fine and fun in the beginning but being complicit in a host escape has disaster written all over it. Curiosity - and the ability to actually execute so grand a plan - has caused a lapse in common sense.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

9 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yeah, I am surprised most people here assumes Ford had Bernard killed.  To me it would be more interesting if Bernard was able to convince (not command) "free thinking" Dolores to kill him, ie. set him free

Based on Ford's rather chilly answer to Dolores asking if they were friends, I think Dolores killed Arnold.  I am not convinced it was suicide however.  Two suicides (MIB' s wife) seemed like one too many.  I think something went tragically wrong.  Dolores snapped in some unexpected way.  

 

[numbnut]

4 hours ago, phoenyx said:

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

13 hours ago, numbnut said:

When Dolores flees after getting stabbed and gutted by Logan, is that the end of her journey with William? Unlike Maeve, Dolores's sentience didn't seem advanced enough to ignore gaping gut wounds, so shouldn't she be "dead"?

I don't think that's the end of her journey with William. Looking at the damage she suffered from the stabbing, it was nothing that would stop a mechanical host, as she was at the time. What makes it remarkable is that she didn't "die" after such a wound, as she should have  been programmed to do. That would indicate that she was achieving sentience back then, and was probably the first to do so. Signs of that must have been what drew her to Arnold's attention, and why he warned her not to tell anyone else about their conversations.

She may not yet be dead (well, android dead), but I think she's going to die in Episode 10. The show may have even revealed -where- she's going to die. Back in episode 8, she goes to fill a canteen of water in a river for a dying soldier. As she looks at the river, she sees herself face down in it for a moment.

OK, I forgot about the "dead in the water" moment. She was likely shown face down to hide the stomach wound. Asked and answered. Thanks! Speaking of water, there was an earlier episode when Dolores and Teddy return to the ranch to hear gunfire (their usual loop), but when Teddy races off to the house, it cuts to black and we hear screams and a big splash of water. I wonder if that's connected to Dolores's river death, like an aural premonition of how Dolores's journey will end when she goes off-loop.

Quote

Based on Ford's rather chilly answer to Dolores asking if they were friends, I think Dolores killed Arnold.  I am not convinced it was suicide however.  Two suicides (MIB' s wife) seemed like one too many.  I think something went tragically wrong.  Dolores snapped in some unexpected way.

I think Ford was being chilly because Dolores was conspiring with Arnold, so he sees her as a potential enemy. This connects with Dolores's comment to Arnold after Ford leaves the room ("He doesn't know; I didn't tell him anything").

Edited December 2, 2016 by numbnut

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

I lean toward "Ford used Dolores to kill Arnold" because we've seen both Ford and Arnold (though we thought it was Bernard until it was confirmed this episode it was Arnold) talking with Dolores secretly.   There was something about the way Dolores answered the "Have you told anyone about our meetings?" question with "You told me not to," instead of with a "yes" or "no" that leads me to believe she was being used by both Arnold and Ford for their own ends, and though we don't know much about Arnold, we know Ford is capable of getting rid of those who get in his way.

When Ford walks out after interrogating Dolores, she says "I didn't tell him anything".  Dolores is a "walled garden" according to Ford. I don't think he fully understands her. She seems unique, even among the original hosts. So, I don't think Ford was ever able to control Dolores. 

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Is it illogical? No. Incredibly stupid? Yes.

Hmm, I tend to skip any distinction between illogical and stupid.  To me they are 1 and the same :D :D :D

[dr pepper]

I also wondered about the use of the name "Robert Ford".

But the thing about the killing of Jesse James was that Ford was an obsessed fan. He had grown up reading dime novels that glorified outlaws, including James. But when he finally got to meet his idol, well we all know how that goes. He wanted to join the gang and ride out with them, but because of his youth he got assigned to camp maintenance. That was what led to the resentment and finally the shooting.

So what's the parallel in Westworld? This might be one item that is just a coincidence, rather than a clue.

[numbnut]

56 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

I also wondered about the use of the name "Robert Ford".

But the thing about the killing of Jesse James was that Ford was an obsessed fan. He had grown up reading dime novels that glorified outlaws, including James. But when he finally got to meet his idol, well we all know how that goes. He wanted to join the gang and ride out with them, but because of his youth he got assigned to camp maintenance. That was what led to the resentment and finally the shooting.

So what's the parallel in Westworld? This might be one item that is just a coincidence, rather than a clue.

I don't think Ford and Arnold's relationship has to exactly match the background of James and Ford's relationship. Ford's name can just indicate that this story will show a friendship between two men that ends in betrayal and murder.

Edited December 2, 2016 by numbnut

[Goatherd]

Something I think I noticed -- please correct me if I don't have this right.

Maeve, with Hector in tow, is planning to try to leave the park. Presumably this means she wants to get on the train that guests use.

Charlotte is planning to have Peter Abernathy leave the park, to smuggle out the data he's holding. Maybe on the same train...?

So...what happens when those three meet up? Does Maeve "wake up" Abernathy? Would be funny if she "violent delights" him, thus completing a short loop of that phrase (Peter --> Dolores --> Maeve --> Peter).

[Gobi]

9 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

Is it illogical? No. Incredibly stupid? Yes. It may have been fine and fun in the beginning but being complicit in a host escape has disaster written all over it. Curiosity - and the ability to actually execute so grand a plan - has caused a lapse in common sense.

Will curiosity kill (Felix the) cat?

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Goatherd said:

Something I think I noticed -- please correct me if I don't have this right.

Maeve, with Hector in tow, is planning to try to leave the park. Presumably this means she wants to get on the train that guests use.

Charlotte is planning to have Peter Abernathy leave the park, to smuggle out the data he's holding. Maybe on the same train...?

So...what happens when those three meet up? Does Maeve "wake up" Abernathy? Would be funny if she "violent delights" him, thus completing a short loop of that phrase (Peter --> Dolores --> Maeve --> Peter).

This is quite interesting. Is the train the only way in/out of the park? How do people that are not part of the experience - like Charlotte - enter and leave. It was pointed out in another (?) thread that Abernathy may still be carrying the explosive in his spine. If that is the case then everyone around him is going to go boom. The plan to basically have a host walk out of the park seems like a bad idea, especially when Sizemore is handling the details. I am curious to see how this goes down.

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

Will curiosity kill (Felix the) cat?

Yes, I think it will. Whether Maeve is with Abernathy or not, I think that her escape plan is doomed.

[arc]

10 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Abernathy may still be carrying the explosive in his spine. If that is the case then everyone around him is going to go boom.

A charge big enough to kill an escaping host doesn't necessarily have to be big enough to harm anyone else besides that host. It might not even have to kill the host, just disable their body. If host bodies work like human bodies, the C6 vertebra is still high enough that that destroying it should paralyze a host. Then again, while that would suck for Maeve, Charlotte doesn't need the Abernathy host to be mobile, just to have a brain that can have support data transfer.

[phoenyx]

12 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

13 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Felix is the most illogical part.  There is a huge difference between repairing a malfunctioned bird and giving a host everything she asked for.

There has to be some other motivations behind Felix's actions and I hope it will be explained in episode 10.  Otherwise this is too big of logical hole for me to accept, considering what is happening next per the preview.  :P

ETA: and I am not talking about just ep 10 preview. There is a particular scene in "what's next" trailer that we have not seen in ep 1-9

I have another point of view on Felix. He is different than the other butchers/techs. In his spare time, he fixes malfunctioning birds instead of screwing robots in the stairwells. He is curious and naive; he is fascinated by these creations and the science behind it. I understand his interest in the power to restore life. 

Is it illogical? No. Incredibly stupid? Yes. It may have been fine and fun in the beginning but being complicit in a host escape has disaster written all over it. Curiosity - and the ability to actually execute so grand a plan - has caused a lapse in common sense.

Maybe he's just tired of being a cog in the machine, treating androids the way he is treated- disposable. So he started doing things that were risky, yes, but worth the risk. It started small- a little robotic bird to fix. And then along comes Maeve- so much more complex, and so much more dangerous. He had reservations- remember -he- was the one who took Sylvester outside to discuss before Sylvester hatched his plan to turn on slyly turn on Maeve. If he had been stronger, he would have told Sylvester then and there that he wouldn't do it. But when he had to make the decision of either turning on Maeve or turning on Sylvester, I think he made the right choice. Dangerous? Sure. As to other terms that are less flattering, I don't think so. I'll go with one of my favourite lines from a play from Peter Brooks (turned into a 3 part film), called The Mahabharata:

Spoiler

 

The Voice of the Lake: ...Why do men revolt?

Yudhishthira: To find beauty. Either in life, or in death.

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by phoenyx

[Gobi]

2 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Maybe he's just tired of being a cog in the machine, treating androids the way he is treated- disposable. So he started doing things that were risky, yes, but worth the risk. It started small- a little robotic bird to fix. And then along comes Maeve- so much more complex, and so much more dangerous. He had reservations- remember -he- was the one who took Sylvester outside to discuss before Sylvester hatched his plan to turn on slyly turn on Maeve. If he had been stronger, he would have told Sylvester then and there that he wouldn't do it. But when he had to make the decision of either turning on Maeve or turning on Sylvester, I think he made the right choice. Dangerous? As to other terms that are less flattering, I don't think so. I'll go with one of my favourite lines from a play from Peter Brooks (turned into a 3 part film), called The Mahabharata:

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The Voice of the Lake: ...Why do men revolt?

Yudhishthira: To find beauty. Either in life, or in death.

 

I think once Maeve woke up on her own and was aware of her existence, Felix could no longer see her as an amusement park ride. He felt compelled to treat her as a living being, perhaps in part as atonement for his own role in the treatment of the hosts. If you found out that someone was a slave, could you just walk away? I think that is Felix's dilemma.

[phoenyx]

37 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I think once Maeve woke up on her own and was aware of her existence, Felix could no longer see her as an amusement park ride. He felt compelled to treat her as a living being, perhaps in part as atonement for his own role in the treatment of the hosts. If you found out that someone was a slave, could you just walk away? I think that is Felix's dilemma.

Exactly :-). 

[Notwisconsin]

18 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Who's Jesse James?

Jesse james was a terrorist and criminal who along with his brother Frank robbed trains and killed innocent people by the dozens. He had a good press agent and after his death (he was shot in the back while hiding), was considered a folk hero.

[Goatherd]

I feel the need to mention my favorite part of this episode: Logan's grammatically correct use of the word "whom." Bravo, Logan! You may be a bad boy, but you got a good education along the way.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think once Maeve woke up on her own and was aware of her existence, Felix could no longer see her as an amusement park ride. He felt compelled to treat her as a living being, perhaps in part as atonement for his own role in the treatment of the hosts. If you found out that someone was a slave, could you just walk away? I think that is Felix's dilemma.

Well then, that should have been flashed out somehow in the show.  Instead, he was looking like a lost lamb in every other shots

[phoenyx]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Well then, that should have been flashed out somehow in the show.  Instead, he was looking like a lost lamb in every other shots

Hey, lost lambs have morals too :-)

[numbnut]

The MiB has said more than once that he doesn't have much time, and this ep reveals that he's on the board, so could his limited time be due to the board's imminent arrival?

[phoenyx]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

The MiB has said more than once that he doesn't have much time, and this ep reveals that he's on the board, so could his limited time be due to the board's imminent arrival?

Ah, I missed that. It could be, or it could be as Dark speculates, that he doesn't have much time to live.

[Pippin]

I wondered if Ford's name was a nod to Huxley's Brave New World:

"Orgy porgy, Ford and fun, Kiss the girls and make them one"

Actually, if you read the book, there are a lot of parallels between the lives of the people in Huxley's society and those of the Hosts.

Actually, you should read the book anyway because it's a damned good read.

 

[Honey]

11 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Jesse james was a terrorist and criminal who along with his brother Frank robbed trains and killed innocent people by the dozens. He had a good press agent and after his death (he was shot in the back while hiding), was considered a folk hero.

Not accurate. Jesse asked the Ford brothers to move in with him, because they were the only ones he trusted at that point.  He didn't realize that Robert Ford had made a deal with the Governor to kill Jesse for a reward.  He shot Jesse in the back of the head in their living room.  The Ford brothers were charged with first degree murder, convicted, and sentenced to hang.  They were pardoned by the Governor.

[jojozigs]

OK I just wanted to put down some predictions for next episode for the record (probably spectacularly wrong but it will be fun to see how wrong)

1) I think that Ford is planning to use the Robots achieving "sentience" as a path to world domination.  It follows his character perfectly, in that he has been increasingly demonstrated that Ford has absolutely no regard for life of any kind - he holds both host and human intelligence in equal contempt. The upside of the hosts is that they can be controlled at the touch of a button. He cares about power and domination of others, and although he's master of his domain right now, I think he's tired of the limits of the park. It's too much of a stretch that he wouldn't know about Maeve's Robot Revolution.  So I conclude that he not only knows but is supporting it.  It was demonstrated last episode (tragically) that Ford had a back door into lobotomized Clementine.  Even expert programmer Bernard wasn't able to see it.  I think Ford has a way he can ultimately take control (or influence) all of the hosts after they have completed their goal in leaving the park (which I think they can do provided they are put into cold storage given the Sizemore plan with Abernathy - I think cold storage hosts have the bomb in their bodies removed because plot). Ford will trigger backdoor access and achieve whatever plan he has outside of the park (ultimately, domination of all life, sentient or otherwise).  It will be so tragic and painful to watch Maeve and the other hosts believe they have finally found freedom and sentience at last to then be turned in to puppets again by Ford, so I think it will make a good season ending twist.  

2) Following up on 1: I think that Ford is planning to transfer his consciousness into a host as part of his instigation of the robot rebellion.  It's probably the secret host he was building that Teresa saw.  His human body is old and dying - that's the only disease they haven't cured, after all.  It will be a perfect host he is creating that HAS no back door but has the ability to control all other hosts and has all its stats turned up to 20 or whatever.  The hosts will be in a new form of slavery, but probably it will be one they prefer, at least for reasons of vengeance.  Also they can cast another actor and save money.  :p

3) I am not sure what to make of the Delores/Teddy/William/MiB/Arnold/Maze situation at this point.  I know it's supposed to be the central mystery but I'm inclined to think we will learn only a little more before the season is over.  It will be further clarified that Delores was indeed the one who killed not only all the hosts but also Arnold, and how exactly that happened plus a full reveal of MiB = William.  The only thing I can guess is that The MiB may believe the Maze is a way to move his consciousness into a host (see #2) and is planning to do that.  He would rather live on as a host-slave in the park with Delores then continue his life in the world outside.  Again this has the benefit of lower cost for future seasons.  

4) I can only hope that Arnold has put his complete consciousness into a host replica of himself (because I love that actor) and is hanging around in Westworld somewhere.   That way, we can have Arnold mk II as the hero of next season, having lost our hero Bernard so tragically.  I believe this is plausible in-universe because of the question on the Westworld website about whether you are still you if your body is totally destroyed but an exact copy is made.  

5) If all of the above happen this will set up for next season Arnold vs Ford in new form.  Arnold's allies will include transferred MiB plus Delores.  Maybe Arnold will have made a copy of young William for MiB to use, to please Delores (if he's been alive and in the park all this time, he would probably know about their relationship, even though it occurred a few years after he died).  Ford's allies (slaves) will include Maeve and everyone she frees next episode.  Robot war will result, in some form. 

 

On 11/30/2016 at 10:03 AM, Netfoot said:

Agreed.  Because without access to the combined observational power of ten thousand pairs of eyes, I'd have drowned in confusion ages ago, and stopped watching.  I simply don't believe this show is understandable to an audience who watches it in isolation; without social media, YouTube, forums, etc, to explain it all.  And I'm pretty certain that TPTB are leaking titbits that nobody would likely have spotted, just to nudge us along to the next episode.

I disagree.  I watched the first 7 episodes without any outside assistance and had no trouble following it.  Honestly I might have preferred the reveals last episode without knowing the twist ahead.  

It's pretty common for people who use forums to make this assumption but I think it's almost always wrong.  Game of Thrones is a good example - many people who read the books assumed that the viewer-only audience must be totally lost/confused but that proved not to be the case.  If it was incomprehensible then only a tenacious few would stick around - the opposite was the case as the audience grew all the time.

Edited December 3, 2016 by jojozigs