Michonne: A Weapon with a Weapon

[Timetoread]

The writers job is to convert the original material into television series format.

 

I am afraid no matter who each of us may think is a wonderful pairing, it has no bearing on the show or the story whatsoever.

Why would it? Fiction is written by a creator with a story to tell. Actors and actresses are hired to play the character written. Danai  always seems to enjoy being part of a huge success.

Andrew Lincoln mentioned on a radio show that he would love to see Rick and Michonne get together. In his opinion he likes the idea; lobbying is actually talking to producers and trying to sell a story arc. He did that once, when he tried to convince them that Beth should be in love with RIck and Carl gets jealous.

The showrunners blew him off. They didn't even want him to appear naked :-) and Norman Reedus got shot down with his lobbying for Daryl to have a pet dog.

Even the big stars don't get to change the story.

 

I don't think the masses are against it, or that they find her unacceptable and there's something "unclean"?

 

There were fans who blamed other people as the reason Bethyl didn't happen, and Caryl didn't happen. And they accused the people they blamed of being horrible, with evil motives. But the reason Bethyl didn't happen and Caryl didn't happen is because no such thing exist in the story!

That's all.

No controversial reason. Just that Bethyl and Caryl were only figments of some fans imagination.

 

Fans have invented Richonne, but it isn't in the story. The show isn't out to get the Michonne fans either. The original material has been around for 12 years and no one cared. But now people have identified very personally with Beth, or Carol, or Michonne, and want something very personal to be validated by the show.

Never expect anything of television but entertainment. It never promised more and it can't even live up to that quite often.

 

 

 

Ah, a lecture.  Well thank you but I am well versed in the nature of television and in the concept of fiction in general.  Got a BA in English.  Read fiction all day every day for many years.  I even write it sometimes.   I'm sure you can agree that there is a difference between being a fan and HOPING something will happen and "lobbying" for something to happen.  I am not circulating a petition.  I have not written the show's writers or producers.  I am not sending hate mail to cast members or  or threatening bloggers in a flame war - or even deciding to stop watching the show.  I am merely stating my opinion.  An opinion that I hold about one specific character.  Is there a larger issue included in my feelings about this opinion?  Indeed.  Stated bluntly, I would like to see more dark skinned women be portrayed as viable romantic options in television and movies that are not helmed by Shonda Rhimes or Tyler Perry.  I am aware that the general public doesn't see or understand this is a problem that even exists.  Their ignorance of it doesn't negate its existence.  This particular problem is NOT the only instance of misrepresentation or LACK of representation of other ethnicities, minorities or sexualities.  It is the ONE that currently touches my life the most and the ONE that I feel effects the portrayal of my favorite character on my favorite show, and thus the ONE about which I articulate my hopes and disappointments.  The next would be where age factors in, and I included Carol in my statements for this reason.

 

I don't feel that anything that I have written indicates a mental break from reality, or an intellectual lacking that prevents me from accepting that "things don't always go your way."  I simply say that I'd like to see Michonne in a romantic pairing with SOMEONE - preferably someone I deem worthy of her.   I'd like her character to be seen not just as a warrior, or a badass or a friend, but as a woman who can attract the affections of a male.  This desire has no bearing on my overall opinion of the show or whether or not I will watch it.  It is just my wish.  If this is not a wish you carry through life, so be it.  However, this lack of inclusion in television and popular fiction is indeed part of my reality and I yearn to see the ceiling crack on this so that I can go to a rom com and see someone who looks like MY family be considered sexy and get the man.  Big ups to Empire!  I think Danai is every ounce as beautiful as her counterparts and I do take offense when it is inferred that the concept of her being paired romantically is ridiculous.  I will not apologize for this opinion, no matter how many attempts there are to bully me out of it. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Timetoread

[kikismom]

It was not bullying or attacking to have a different take on the subject.

 

People will disagree, that is not an attack.

 

No one is required to apologise for their opinion.

 

Lobbying was in reference to your statement that Andrew Lincoln was lobbying; no mention of you lobbying or circulating petitions etc,

 

I do think Danai is beautiful, and did not infer that the concept of her being paired romantically is ridiculous.

 

I do think when a tv series is based on material from another source, in this case a graphic novel, we and the actors themselves have little reason to even expect that the material will be changed to our wishes.

 

I have posted this link elsewhere if people want to read it, it does include Andrew Lincoln's interest in where the story will go with Michonne and his relationship to her character.

http://www.designntrend.com/articles/46033/20150331/the-walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-rick-alexandra-breckenridge-jessie-danai-gurira-michonne.htm

Edited April 1, 2015 by kikismom

[raven]

Well the show has veered from the source material and continues to do so in some areas, so it's not unreasonable to hope that they keep going in different directions.  It's different to compare living, breathing characters on TV to their comic counterparts, when the interpretations of the people playing them in the live versions are different than those of the person who put them on the page.

 

 

But the reason Bethyl didn't happen and Caryl didn't happen is because no such thing exist in the story!

Well, Daryl's not in the story either, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?  It seemed to me youre referring to the comics (I don't think Daryl not being in them is a spoiler) but maybe you mean the TV show.  I'm not one to overly focus on relationships, and the fact that neither of those pairings happened didn't bother me; IRL people can connect with others emotionally or however with nothing physical coming of it.

 

I don't think that Michonne is incomplete without a relationship, but to see it would bring a different facet to the character than "badass/friend/co-leader" (and I am aware of how her comic counterpart is).  Leaving her in that zone is limiting for storylines IMO (see also: Daryl).  FWIW I feel the same about Carol, though I think the show is taking her into a crazy place and I wonder if the character will be too damaged for that (to me, anyway).  So Tara has had a hint of a relationship, Rosita's banging Abraham, Maggie & Glenn at least used to have sex scenes, Jessie's introduction has centered around her relationships with men, etc.  They at least mentioned a boyfriend for Beth, there was Sasha/Bob.  Yet nothing for Michonne or Carol (I don't consider Ed a romance) though I think that Carol's current arc doesn't leave a lot of room for a romantic pairing. 

 

It's easier to have various developments for characters in comics I think, then in a TV show with several side characters and time and lines are limited.

 

The problem I see is the show trying to work in some comic storylines and images - the intro scene with Abraham, Eugene and Rosita was an homage but was mocked as silly.  Not all of it translates well and there're things in the comics I'm happy that the show didn't do.   Could be the showrunners are a little paranoid about pairing a character as popular as Michonne with anyone (same with Daryl).  I enjoy her friendship with Rick and can see them as a couple but (I've said this before) I don't trust the show to handle it well, so I'd rather they leave it as is than mess it up (though I think even an AMC sponsored sex scene between the AL and Danai would be off the charts HOT, lol).

[kj4ever]

It was not bullying or attacking to have a different take on the subject.

 

People will disagree, that is not an attack.

 

No one is required to apologise for their opinion.

 

Lobbying was in reference to your statement that Andrew Lincoln was lobbying; no mention of you lobbying or circulating petitions etc,

 

I do think Danai is beautiful, and did not infer that the concept of her being paired romantically is ridiculous.

 

I do think when a tv series is based on material from another source, in this case a graphic novel, we and the actors themselves have little reason to even expect that the material will be changed to our wishes.

 

I have posted this link elsewhere if people want to read it, it does include Andrew Lincoln's interest in where the story will go with Michonne and his relationship to her character.

http://www.designntrend.com/articles/46033/20150331/the-walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-rick-alexandra-breckenridge-jessie-danai-gurira-michonne.htm

I didn't see any bullying, just people stating their opinion.

 

I know they can veer from the comics, but I don't think Kirkman will let them get to far away from his baby, and Rick being with Michonne would be that big time.  They have left parts out of Michonne's story out thank god, 

because in the comics didn't she seem to have a thing for other people's men? Like Tyreese and later Heath who rejected her because he was with Denise? I'm glad she's not like that on the show and would rather her not be with anyone if it's cannon for her to dig taken men.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kj4ever

[kikismom]

I don't think that Michonne is incomplete without a relationship, but to see it would bring a different facet to the character than "badass/friend/co-leader" (and I am aware of how her comic counterpart is).  Leaving her in that zone is limiting for storylines IMO (see also: Daryl).

 

 Could be the showrunners are a little paranoid about pairing a character as popular as Michonne with anyone (same with Daryl).

Right! In the show, Daryl is not a guy with a relationship and that is not because the masses would be against it, or it would be unacceptable, or because he is rejected.

It would simply eat the show!

That would be all the show and the media would be about. I get that you feel leaving both of them as co-leader/friend is limiting to the storyline. But it could also hugely complicate the storyline. (see Maggie and Glenn, and frankly they are not as popular as Daryl, Michonne or Rick.)

I know people said they saw things between Daryl and others, but Kirkman had to come right out and say it after the mid-season break---that there was nothing and it was just friendships. Because it was getting way out of control. The comic is a different thing

as many people know, Michonne was horribly raped by

the Gov and also has sex going to different men. I don't

think that would have been something for the TV show

to do.Not just because of the explicit visuals, but

because it was so different a personality tone/impression

of what Michonne is about.

 Tyreese and Karen were only a couple briefly, and that was in his conversation constantly. Sasha and Bob had a more seriously involved relatonship, and she is terribly messed up about that (and her brother).

MIchonne had a long-standing extremely serious relationship (marriage-like) and a child with MIke. She didn't just lose both of them--she came back to the camp and her baby was dead (and who knows how bad Andre's death was) and it was due to Mike and Terry getting high when she trusted them.

It was horrible loss multiplied by betrayal. Even when Rick lost Lori, the baby still lived and there was no factor of her infidelity killing Carl or Judith.

As far as I know, Michonne has only told Carl about having been a mother. If she isn't able to trust Rick with the story I think it is an important way of showing she still has to overcome her fear of trusting a (grown) man that way. It must be important to the story because they took the time for Carl to ask if his Dad knew about it and for her to tell him no and Carl has not told anyone.

Daryl and Aaron may be a couple in some fans minds. Carol and Tobin just talked once and started being shipped. Nothing wrong, there's a bit of fun there, but only to a point. When it becomes about the show or the viewers having hatred it's going far for something that is not a fact yet in the show/story.

 

But YMMV, and I'll let it be.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kikismom

[kj4ever]

Right! In the show, Daryl is not a guy with a relationship and that is not because the masses would be against it, or it would be unacceptable, or because he is rejected.

It would simply eat the show!

That would be all the show and the media would be about. I get that you feel leaving both of them as co-leader/friend is limiting to the storyline. But it could also hugely complicate the storyline. (see Maggie and Glenn, and frankly they are not as popular as Daryl, Michonne or Rick.)

I know people said they saw things between Daryl and others, but Kirkman had to come right out and say it after the mid-season break---that there was nothing and it was just friendships. Because it was getting way out of control. The comic is a different thing

as many people know, Michonne was horribly raped by

the Gov and also has sex going to different men. I don't

think that would have been something for the TV show

to do.Not just because of the explicit visuals, but

because it was so different a personality tone/impression

of what Michonne is about.

 Tyreese and Karen were only a couple briefly, and that was in his conversation constantly. Sasha and Bob had a more seriously involved relatonship, and she is terribly messed up about that (and her brother).

MIchonne had a long-standing extremely serious relationship (marriage-like) and a child with MIke. She didn't just lose both of them--she came back to the camp and her baby was dead (and who knows how bad Andre's death was) and it was due to Mike and Terry getting high when she trusted them.

It was horrible loss multiplied by betrayal. Even when Rick lost Lori, the baby still lived and there was no factor of her infidelity killing Carl or Judith.

As far as I know, Michonne has only told Carl about having been a mother. If she isn't able to trust Rick with the story I think it is an important way of showing she still has to overcome her fear of trusting a (grown) man that way. It must be important to the story because they took the time for Carl to ask if his Dad knew about it and for her to tell him no and Carl has not told anyone.

Daryl and Aaron may be a couple in some fans minds. Carol and Tobin just talked once and started being shipped. Nothing wrong, there's a bit of fun there, but only to a point. When it becomes about the show or the viewers having hatred it's going far for something that is not a fact yet in the show/story.

 

But YMMV, and I'll let it be.

I think you make an excellent point about Michonne losing a child, and Carol also lost a child.  I don't think there is a bigger emotional event a person can deal with.  Ever.  I always saw Michonne's story as a progression with how she kept her distance and slowly got close to people, trusting herself to feel again.  I don't know if Carol will ever get there, but I think Michonne is pretty damn close.

[Timetoread]

It was not bullying or attacking to have a different take on the subject.

People will disagree, that is not an attack.

 

I didn't see any bullying, just people stating their opinion.

 

Your post, and not the first of its kind on these boards and on this subject matter, was not a "different take on the subject".  See a differing opinion, specifically on what I wrote, might be, for example, "I don't like Rick and Michonne together" or "I don't like the mixing of the races", or "I think Danai and women who look like her are ugly" or "I prefer Michonne with Daryl or Morgan or Tara, etc." or "I like Rick with women who are more like Lori" or "Romance sucks, men and women should only be platonic friends."  All are opinions, and as valid as the person holding them.  What YOU wrote was your opinion on people who have my opinion - or specifically ME.  Using elementary language to explain simple concepts as fiction and television and moralizing that wishing doesn't make it so.  That IS insulting, and because it is not the first time I've heard it, to the extent that it is near Pavlovian, it DOES come across as bullying to me.   That said, I don't take my orders from bullies and I'll believe as I so desire about Rick and Michonne, television, fiction, and the nature of storytelling. 

 

But back to the shallow, more comfortable and peaceful, end...

 

I do think when a tv series is based on material from another source, in this case a graphic novel, we and the actors themselves have little reason to even expect that the material will be changed to our wishes.

 

Except that just about EVERYTHING on the series is a change from the graphic novel.   There is every reason to expect that while the show is based on source material, that the producers of a television show will make changes that best fit their own version of the narrative - much of which is in response to, as posted above, organic creation that comes from real live actors and their interactions with each other as opposed to the illustrations from one author - who is himself still in the process of creating his work.

 

So yeah, anything can happen.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Timetoread

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Is there a larger issue included in my feelings about this opinion?  Indeed.  Stated bluntly, I would like to see more dark skinned women be portrayed as viable romantic options in television and movies that are not helmed by Shonda Rhimes or Tyler Perry.  I am aware that the general public doesn't see or understand this is a problem that even exists.  Their ignorance of it doesn't negate its existence.    I think Danai is every ounce as beautiful as her counterparts and I do take offense when it is inferred that the concept of her being paired romantically is ridiculous.  I will not apologize for this opinion, no matter how many attempts there are to bully me out of it. 

 

        Well said. 

[Timetoread]

Right! In the show, Daryl is not a guy with a relationship and that is not because the masses would be against it, or it would be unacceptable, or because he is rejected.

It would simply eat the show!

That would be all the show and the media would be about. I get that you feel leaving both of them as co-leader/friend is limiting to the storyline. But it could also hugely complicate the storyline. (see Maggie and Glenn, and frankly they are not as popular as Daryl, Michonne or Rick.)

I know people said they saw things between Daryl and others, but Kirkman had to come right out and say it after the mid-season break---that there was nothing and it was just friendships. Because it was getting way out of control. The comic is a different thing

as many people know, Michonne was horribly raped by

the Gov and also has sex going to different men. I don't

think that would have been something for the TV show

to do.Not just because of the explicit visuals, but

because it was so different a personality tone/impression

of what Michonne is about.

 Tyreese and Karen were only a couple briefly, and that was in his conversation constantly. Sasha and Bob had a more seriously involved relatonship, and she is terribly messed up about that (and her brother).

MIchonne had a long-standing extremely serious relationship (marriage-like) and a child with MIke. She didn't just lose both of them--she came back to the camp and her baby was dead (and who knows how bad Andre's death was) and it was due to Mike and Terry getting high when she trusted them.

It was horrible loss multiplied by betrayal. Even when Rick lost Lori, the baby still lived and there was no factor of her infidelity killing Carl or Judith.

As far as I know, Michonne has only told Carl about having been a mother. If she isn't able to trust Rick with the story I think it is an important way of showing she still has to overcome her fear of trusting a (grown) man that way. It must be important to the story because they took the time for Carl to ask if his Dad knew about it and for her to tell him no and Carl has not told anyone.

Daryl and Aaron may be a couple in some fans minds. Carol and Tobin just talked once and started being shipped. Nothing wrong, there's a bit of fun there, but only to a point. When it becomes about the show or the viewers having hatred it's going far for something that is not a fact yet in the show/story.

 

But YMMV, and I'll let it be.

 

I hear you but I think there is some confusion about what people are saying.  Nobody, that I've read,  is suggesting that the show be written about a bunch of hookups and that the couples get to be chosen by the fans, like an MTV show.  What worries me is the possibility of the exact opposite of that - that the show, so scared to even attempt romance, remove the humanity from the story that they are telling.  Connecting with people across the spectrum is part of the human experience.  What I found funny and ironic was that people kept saying stuff like:  I don't want to watch a bunch of people sitting in one place mooning over each other.  I want to see them on the road surviving day in and day out.  I want to see them deal and get through their pain"  So that's what they gave us - the whole group on the literal road, eating worms and dogs, taking cry breaks and not speaking to each other at all.  Nobody liked that either.  LOL.  You can't win.  I like Scott Gimple so I hope that was his own experiment to justify what will be - tell the story that you're telling.  There may or may not be romance.  There may or may not be emotion.  But don't swing from one extreme to the other for fear of fandom.  Fandom will take care of itself - hence the existence of places like PTV. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Timetoread

[kj4ever]

I hear you but I think there is some confusion about what people are saying.  Nobody, that I've read,  is suggesting that the show be written about a bunch of hookups and that the couples get to be chosen by the fans, like an MTV show.  What worries me is the possibility of the exact opposite of that - that the show, so scared to even attempt romance, remove the humanity from the story that they are telling.  Connecting with people across the spectrum is part of the human experience.  What I found funny and ironic was that people kept saying stuff like:  I don't want to watch a bunch of people sitting in one place mooning over each other.  I want to see them on the road surviving day in and day out.  I want to see them deal and get through their pain"  So that's what they gave us - the whole group on the literal road, eating worms and dogs, taking cry breaks and not speaking to each other at all.  Nobody liked that either.  LOL.  You can't win.  I like Scott Gimple so I hope that was his own experiment to justify what will be - tell the story that you're telling.  There may or may not be romance.  There may or may not be emotion.  But don't swing from one extreme to the other for fear of fandom.  Fandom will take care of itself - hence the existence of places like PTV. 

i don't think they had them on the road to please fans.  This show doesn't seem to cater to the fans, it caters to the source material. 

The whole going on the road to Washington was damn near just like the Comics, except Eugene confessed earlier.

[Timetoread]

i don't think they had them on the road to please fans.  This show doesn't seem to cater to the fans, it caters to the source material. 

The whole going on the road to Washington was damn near just like the Comics, except Eugene confessed earlier.

 

It does make me wonder if perhaps the comics don't translate well on screen.  It seems that everytime they recreate it exactly like the GN, it does not come across favorably.

[ghoulina]

I don't think the show caters to the source material. I think the comics are as basic outline, a jumping off point. Now, I haven't read them, and I try to avoid any future references to them, but I've heard enough from others to know that many things in the past have veered sharply off course from the comics. So, IMO, I don't think  that just because a couple wasn't together in the comics, they can't be together on the show. 

 

And I think this is a risky discussion to even have outside the comic forum, because now I basically know that Rick and Michonne NEVER get together in the comics, from things people have said here. Not a big deal to me, but it's a slippery slope. 

 

I am not in the writers heads, so I have no idea why they would or wouldn't put two people together. But somehow I don't think that's it. I'm not a shipper, so I don't really have an interest in Rick and Michonne getting together, but I wouldn't really have a problem if they did either. If I had to guess, I'd say it would be risky to pair two strong characters together like that. Killing off a family member or love interest seems to be a favorite way to propel a character forward on this show, and I would bet TPTB don't want to lose Michonne or Rick. But I could be totally off. 

[Nashville]

MIchonne had a long-standing extremely serious relationship (marriage-like) and a child with MIke. She didn't just lose both of them--she came back to the camp and her baby was dead (and who knows how bad Andre's death was) and it was due to Mike and Terry getting high when she trusted them.

I may be wrong - and please correct me if I am - but IIRC Andre died when Michonne was out scrounging for supplies, Mike and Terry decided to get good and baked, and walkers overran the camp while M&T were F'ed up; Michonne returned to find Andre dead and M&T turned. Which pretty much means Andre was shredded past the ability to reanimate. Any way you slice it, it had to be pretty freakin' horrible.

Which also leads me to wonder (and maybe this was specifically addressed and I'm not remembering it): did the overrunning walkers kill Andre? Or did Michonne return to find Mike chowing on their child, with a Terry assist?

[kikismom]

I liked them on the road. I really wanted to see what happened on the third day without water.

 

I may be wrong - and please correct me if I am - but IIRC Andre died when Michonne was out scrounging for supplies, Mike and Terry decided to get good and baked, and walkers overran the camp while M&T were F'ed up; Michonne returned to find Andre dead and M&T turned. Which pretty much means Andre was shredded past the ability to reanimate. Any way you slice it, it had to be pretty freakin' horrible.

Which also leads me to wonder (and maybe this was specifically addressed and I'm not remembering it): did the overrunning walkers kill Andre? Or did Michonne return to find Mike chowing on their child, with a Terry assist?

That's what I thought I had conveyed but maybe not?

 

I think poor little Andre would have gone the way of Luke and Molly, who were even bigger but didn't leave much.. I have alsowondered if it was unknown walkers or the baby's own father---her partner---that devoured the child.

 

I still wonder not just why Michonne never told Rick or anyone but Carl---but I really wonder how do you keep yourself from slipping in conversation. All the time she has been part of CDB, how easy it would be to accidentally say, oh mine used to do that or when mine got fussy I would try this or that...that is such a big secret to keep when another baby is around.

[kikismom]

 If I had to guess, I'd say it would be risky to pair two strong characters together like that. Killing off a family member or love interest seems to be a favorite way to propel a character forward on this show, and I would bet TPTB don't want to lose Michonne or Rick. But I could be totally off. 

I don't want another Bones or Lois and Clark or Moonlighting the ZA edition or any of those show which were about something, then the two male and female characters that would get the most headlines for being in bed together become a couple and the show goes to hell. Maybe it's because after the hopeful get to see the characters in bed, they are done, or maybe because now the stories all have to be written about the loveyness.

We've already discussed how Maggie and Glenn are much better when they have different arcs not involving each other.

[Nashville]

I liked them on the road. I really wanted to see what happened on the third day without water.

 

Shades of Costner's opening scene in Waterworld, maybe? Tasty.

 

I still wonder not just why Michonne never told Rick or anyone but Carl---but I really wonder how do you keep yourself from slipping in conversation. All the time she has been part of CDB, how easy it would be to accidentally say, oh mine used to do that or when mine got fussy I would try this or that...that is such a big secret to keep when another baby is around.

THIS has bugged me incessantly - not just with regard to Michonne, but in general. For going on TWO YEARS now these folks have been in pretty-near-constant joined-at-the-hip proximity, in circumstances frequently requiring full attention focus on the potential for external threats - and nobody EVER lets their internal filters slip enough to let something out by accident? It ain't human.

[kj4ever]

I may be wrong - and please correct me if I am - but IIRC Andre died when Michonne was out scrounging for supplies, Mike and Terry decided to get good and baked, and walkers overran the camp while M&T were F'ed up; Michonne returned to find Andre dead and M&T turned. Which pretty much means Andre was shredded past the ability to reanimate. Any way you slice it, it had to be pretty freakin' horrible.

Which also leads me to wonder (and maybe this was specifically addressed and I'm not remembering it): did the overrunning walkers kill Andre? Or did Michonne return to find Mike chowing on their child, with a Terry assist?

You know when Michonne is looking for Rick and Carl in that store and she sits down and is like "Mike, I know that wasn't you" or something like that I got the feeling that Mike and his friend killed theirself and Andre.  Remember how they kept talking about was it worth it to live and in her nightmare they were getting more and more desperate?

 

I also wondered how did she know they were high?  Were they eating more then normal zombies?  Were they giggling in between bites? Calling each other bro?

Edited April 2, 2015 by kj4ever

[ghoulina]

I also wondered how did she know they were high?  Were they eating more then normal zombies?  Were they giggling in between bites? Calling each other bro?

 

LOL, I always figured she found the drugs in their living quarters or whatever. Some fresh evidence of what they had been doing.

[kj4ever]

LOL, I always figured she found the drugs in their living quarters or whatever. Some fresh evidence of what they had been doing.

Yeah, but she said it was overrun, so I got the feeling when she got back the camp was a mess.  If they killed themselves before they got overrun it would explain why their bodies were still intact.

[Nashville]

You know when Michonne is looking for Rick and Carl in that store and she sits down and is like "Mike, I know that wasn't you" or something like that I got the feeling that Mike and his friend killed theirself and Andre.  Remember how they kept talking about was it worth it to live and in her nightmare they were getting more and more desperate?

 

I also wondered how did she know they were high?  Were they eating more then normal zombies?  Were they giggling in between bites? Calling each other bro?

...smoldering, busted-up pieces of bong in the middle of busted-up pieces of Andre?

[kikismom]

Yeah, but she said it was overrun, so I got the feeling when she got back the camp was a mess.  If they killed themselves before they got overrun it would explain why their bodies were still intact.

And if they killed themselves, they wouldn't have left Andre alive and alone....so maybe when she said Mike I know that wasn't you {paraphrase] she meant she felt Mike didn't kill Andre,Terry did? Or ....something.

[kj4ever]

And if they killed themselves, they wouldn't have left Andre alive and alone....so maybe when she said Mike I know that wasn't you {paraphrase] she meant she felt Mike didn't kill Andre,Terry did? Or ....something.

Exactly!  Part of her nightmare was Terry asking Mike how could he let Andre grow up in this world...I always thought there was more to it then what we saw.  Damn I'm going to have to go watch it again now!

[Nashville]

Exactly!  Part of her nightmare was Terry asking Mike how could he let Andre grow up in this world...I always thought there was more to it then what we saw.  Damn I'm going to have to go watch it again now!

So - they got trippin-balls stoned, got the idea to kill Andre to "spare" him the horror of post-ZA living, then either (a) offed themselves or (b) got offed by Michonne when she saw what these two cracked-out crumplenuts had done to her baby?

I can work with that.

[kj4ever]

So - they got trippin-balls stoned, got the idea to kill Andre to "spare" him the horror of post-ZA living, then either (a) offed themselves or (b) got offed by Michonne when she saw what these two cracked-out crumplenuts had done to her baby?

I can work with that.

Terry sounded like he wanted to do it in her nightmare and Mike was arguing with him about it.  Next shot they were both despondent and hopeless.  Okay I gotta go dig it up on my DVR and rewatch... 

[raven]

 

We've already discussed how Maggie and Glenn are much better when they have different arcs not involving each other.

Well I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think there are opportunities for the show to write them good storylines together, but I don't know if the writers on this show can handle it.  That's repetitive of me since I said the same thing about Rick/Michonne, so I try to make my comments on what I see the characters doing and what I think the show can accomodate.

 

Regarding Michonne and her past, other than her one convo and the dream, there's been no indication that what happened with Andre is on her mind or causes her to want to not have any kind of romantic entaglement.  Her PTSD flashbacks center around being alone, slashing, etc.   I don't think the show is saying that anyway; they've just kind of not said anything about it all.  It kind of stands out to me when you look at what's happened with the other women on the show, except for Carol, who has followed a different, interesting path (though veering a little too close to cartoon right now IMO).  There may be an opportunity for Michonne next season, who knows. 

 

 

That would be all the show and the media would be about. I get that you feel leaving both of them as co-leader/friend is limiting to the storyline. But it could also hugely complicate the storyline.

Life can be complicated so why shouldn't the show be?  I *do* actually think the showrunners are deliberately avoiding these relationships for the reasons stated, I'm not saying I agree with that reasoning.  Someone fan faction's going to be pissed off no matter what, or (more likely) the showrunners enjoy teasing the different options (moreso with Daryl) and so refuse to commit.  At least there's been suggestions for Daryl and his character's doing something slightly different with Aaron (oops, sounds dirty, didn't mean it), Michonne hasn't had any options, whether she says yes or no; either answer would open a different facet to her character. 

 

Interesting discussion BTW.

 

ETA:

 

I liked them on the road. I really wanted to see what happened on the third day without water.

LOL - I like them on the road too (I really like seeing apocalypse landscape) and for our group, it's not conducive to romance, at least when they're starving and dirty.  They could view each other now as too much of a family, and that's OK if the show tells/shows us. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by raven

[kj4ever]

Okay, I rewatched her scenes (which are some of the best on the show btw)...

 

I was wrong, her sig other is the one who keeps saying "what's the answer".  At first Terry wants to leave the camp they are staying at because he doesn't feel like it's safe, and Mike is saying he won't take his son out in that.  Terry kind of argues that Michonne has gotten good with a sword and that's valuable now.

 

They are still dressed nice and Michonne is smiling like "what is wrong with you guys" and holding Andre.  Next scene the guys are obviously at the camp, worn clothes, dejected.  This is where Mike kind of goes on about why the hell are they even trying, what's the point of them living in this world - what's the point in Andre living in it and are they just kidding themselves, that there is no happy ending.  Terry keeps asking him "what's the damn question" until Mike finally says "why".

 

Andre disappears from her arms and she starts screaming and wakes up.

 

Then when Michonne is in the Mom and Pop shop she has a little break down after she sees the Father's note about his son and talks to Mike.  She says she misses him, that she missed him while she was still with him.  She then says "I know it wasn't you who did it" and that he was wrong because she's still here, that Mike could have still been here, that Andre could still be here.

 

She says she knows the answer to "why" and gets up and finds Carl and Rick.

 

Now maybe she meant he was wrong about leaving the camp.  Maybe how I thought happened, that they killed Andre and then themselves.  I'm leaning towards my theory, but I'm biased...lol

Edited April 3, 2015 by kj4ever

[kikismom]

Yes, that finally makes sense of what she said, There was a little break between the car, and her "monologue" to Mike; so I could not put it together. But the note in the bar/bar-b-que joint said please do what I couldn't and it referred to him not being able to kill (put down ) a member of his family. So it really looks more like Andre was not killed by the walkers but "dispatched" so he would not have to be in this world.

Unless someone has a better interpretation?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Michonne went on a supply run.

A herd came through and attacked the camp.

Mike and Terry were getting high on weed, they failed to protect Andre.

Upon returning, Michonne found them bitten and her child devoured.

Instead of putting them down, she let Mike and Terry die and turn.

Then made them her walker pets.

Edited April 3, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[kj4ever]

Yes, that finally makes sense of what she said, There was a little break between the car, and her "monologue" to Mike; so I could not put it together. But the note in the bar/bar-b-que joint said please do what I couldn't and it referred to him not being able to kill (put down ) a member of his family. So it really looks more like Andre was not killed by the walkers but "dispatched" so he would not have to be in this world.

Unless someone has a better interpretation?

Ooo or maybe they didn't know that everyone turned and Andre turned before they could off each other and bit them....

[mandolin]

Ooo or maybe they didn't know that everyone turned and Andre turned before they could off each other and bit them....

We know Michonne and Andrea didn't know everyone turned until the Gov told them...

[Bongo Fury]

... the whole group on the literal road, eating worms and dogs, taking cry breaks and not speaking to each other at all.  Nobody liked that either.

 

That's a mighty bold statement, did you poll the entire viewership to determine that 'Nobody liked that'? Or are you calling me a nobody? Because i find that insulting that you'd make broad generalizations and marginalize my opinion.

 

Except that just about EVERYTHING on the series is a change from the graphic novel. 

 

No it is not changed from the source material. Minor details were changed, like different characters saying a line in the novel and the TV, or the gender of a character changing. And structural changes were made, like the order of events, wiltshire/shirewilt occurring after the prison instead of before. But the FUNDAMENTAL story is the same. 

 

I see this is identical to the Lord of the Rings story. The novel and the movies differ in minor details in order to translate the story to film. For example, there is no Glorfindel character in the film. Maybe they didn't want to pay an additional actor to play a minor role or maybe they didn't want to confuse the audience with another character to keep track of, but for whatever reason TPTB decided to instead give Glorfindel's role at the ford to Arwen, which helped beef that character up a little more. Throughout the film dialog is switched from one character to another. And overall it works very well, a long and complicated story is successfully translated to the screen. Unlike the Hobbit movie, where a bunch of crap was needlessly added on to the film to bloat it and fill up three movies. The most egregious example, in my opinion, was the invented love story between Kili and Tauriel, which served NO purpose to the overall narrative and did not improve the source material at all. They added a love plotline that in many ways ruined the film. Yes, some people enjoy romance in their entertainment, but if it is not germane to the story being told it often does more harm than good. 

[ghoulina]

Michonne went on a supply run.

A herd came through and attacked the camp.

Mike and Terry were getting high on weed, they failed to protect Andre.

Upon returning, Michonne found them bitten and her child devoured.

Instead of putting them down, she let Mike and Terry die and turn.

Then made them her walker pets.

 

That's exactly how I always thought it went down. 

 

When she said, "I know it wasn't you" - I thought she was referring to how he was high, and how people aren't themselves and make mistakes when they're under the influence.

[Timetoread]

IMO whether or not a romantic pairing works has a lot to do with both the type of show it is and the talent of the writers.  I think fandom and media gets caught up in will they/won't they just to have something to talk about and be excited about, but that doesn't necessarily have be a driving factor in a story.  For instance Rosita and Abe have been a couple since we met them.  But they don't walk around all Boo'ed up, they interact with others seperately and it seems as a couple, they both really like and respect Michonne and go to her rather than Rick - which I like.  Rick was with Lori for the first three seasons, in spite of the triangle, and there was a natural order to that.  Glenn and Maggie were cute in their initial pairing that went from cheap, nihilistic sex to an actual relationship.  The problem is that the writers decided to write their "love" as some epic Titanic-like "thing" that grated with both their circumstances (as in they are part of an ensemble cast) and realism.  Maggie's desperation for Glenn became offensive in that her desperation didn't extend to other family members in peril.  Had the writers simply included a couple of lines about the others, her reunion with Glenn would have been so much more poignant.  He is now all she has left. 

 

Now specifically, IMO about Rick and Michonne, I don't see a parallel to Bones and Moonlighting and such.  The show is not about THEM, it is about the whole group and their living in the ZA.  There, so far, hasn't been a huge build up of sexual tension between them that becomes distracting.  If I were writing for the show, I wouldn't even bother showing a "love story" with goo goo eyes and such.  Honestly, I would just introduce them as a couple after a season time jump.  Rick wakes up in a bed to Judith's crying, and then Michonne sits up next to him and sleepily utters, "I'll get her."  and Rick lays back down.  The rest of the episode plays the same as every other episode of this show.  Group has an issue, Rick considers Carl and Judith, he talks it out with Michonne, Rick slays the monster.  No mushy stuff, no writing the whole show around one couple, no choreographed sex scenes.  Just an understanding that in the rare opportunities people in this group get to be alone, these two are alone together.

 

I mean the whole point of those of us who favor them as a couple is that even without kissy stuff and sex, Michonne and Rick ALREADY operate like a settled married couple.  Including her sitting in his room all night glaring at him and him being snippy, LOL.  Then, just when it looks like his lie is going to fly, he spills his guts to her.  They are already very couply.  Being a couple isn't just about having sex all the time, it is about being partners - sharing responsibilities and working through the big decisions - and sometimes arguing over them.  They are already partners.  There really wouldn't be a seismic change in the execution of the show to just call it a relationship.

 

But whatever.  It looks like we're going to try out Jessie with Rick and perhaps Morgan with Michonne.  Let's see how it works.  Either way I'll be there, as always.

That's exactly how I always thought it went down. 

 

When she said, "I know it wasn't you" - I thought she was referring to how he was high, and how people aren't themselves and make mistakes when they're under the influence.

 

Funny, I thought what she meant by that is that not everybody is strong and that Mike's reaction to the ZA was to withdraw and be fearful.  That wasn't his REAL self - the man she fell for and shared her life with.  I think that was her accepting his flaw, forgiving him for it, and not letting it shape the whole of her memory of him.  It was her moment to move forward and stop carrying around her disappointment in him.  I do believe that is why she sticks so close to Rick, because the ferocity with which Rick protects his children is everything that Mike was not 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Timetoread

[Nashville]

Ooo or maybe they didn't know that everyone turned and Andre turned before they could off each other and bit them....

  

We know Michonne and Andrea didn't know everyone turned until the Gov told them...

But were the unbitten/unscratched turning at that time (when Andre died)?

  

Michonne went on a supply run.

A herd came through and attacked the camp.

Mike and Terry were getting high on weed, they failed to protect Andre.

Upon returning, Michonne found them bitten and her child devoured.

Instead of putting them down, she let Mike and Terry die and turn.

Then made them her walker pets.

  

That's exactly how I always thought it went down. 

 

When she said, "I know it wasn't you" - I thought she was referring to how he was high, and how people aren't themselves and make mistakes when they're under the influence.

So many good options!

The suspense is killing me! I hope it lasts. -- Willy Wonka

[kikismom]

I was reminded of TWD when I saw this; it makes me wonder if this is a favorite dilemma of scriptwriters. Just like a female character on a show has 2 choices: the handsome forbidden guy or the logical long-time friend.

This was one of the 2 women that the lead male character had for his romantic possibilities:

 

Sound familiar to anyone else?

Edited April 9, 2015 by kikismom

[Nashville]

I was reminded of TWD when I saw this; it makes me wonder if this is a favorite dilemma of scriptwriters. Just like a female character on a show has 2 choices: the handsome forbidden guy or the logical long-time friend.

This was one of the 2 women that the lead male character had for his romantic possibilities:

 

Sound familiar to anyone else?

 

I expected the Friendzoned Dilemma is familiar to at least half the television-watching population of the world, as it's second only to the Continually Star-Crossed Lovers Dilemma as the most overused romantic trope in existence. 

 

The other half just aren't paying attention.

[editorgrrl]

I really love Michonne's character. I want the writers to start building her a man stat. A character who is worthy of this exceptional woman and I want them to fall deeply in love and have lots of sex. Yeah, I said it!

I need for the show to have this woman be loved because she is beautiful and so deserving of it. All of the women on this show have had partners except Michonne and Carol. All have had moments when a member of the opposite sex indicated that he found her attractive except her. Morgan is still crazy, IMO, so I don't want this pairing. They need to introduce a sexy, Idris Alba type to showcase this amazing woman. If it doesn't happen even once before this show goes off, I will be very unhappy.

I love Michonne, but I do not trust TPTB to write a romantic storyline for her. Look what happened to Andrea!

IMO, plenty of male characters have found Michonne attractive—including Rick and Daryl.

[kikismom]

I love Michonne, but I do not trust TPTB to write a romantic storyline for her. Look what happened to Andrea!

IMO, plenty of male characters have found Michonne attractive—including Rick and Daryl.

And now you can add Sgt. Moobs! (I've been wondering where Rosita was when he went out on the porch to talk with Michonne.)

[Timetoread]

And now you can add Sgt. Moobs! (I've been wondering where Rosita was when he went out on the porch to talk with Michonne.)

 

Was that finding her attractive or just talking to her?

[JBody]

Was that finding her attractive or just talking to her?

 

Just talking to her.

 

I've been trying to figure out what is up with Michonne for quite awhile now. Timetoread's posts have been illuminating.  I also found this essay that helped me understand what the hell is going on here.

 

http://thefanmetareader.org/2015/09/21/fandom-and-the-intersection-of-feminism-and-race-by-diversehighfantasy/

 

Black women have almost never been the ones who need protecting in media. Black women aren’t sick and tired of always being love interests. The Strong Independent Woman (thanks in part to fandom repeatedly using the term to try and keep women of color in their romance-free place) has become virtually a slur when it comes to Black women in media in the same way the Damsel in Distress makes white women’s skin crawl. If you care about intersectionality at all, it’s important to understand that. The experience of Black women in media is the Bizarro World version of white women’s experience.

...

Abbie Mills is a tough, independent badass – but Katrina embodied “womanhood,” precious and pure. Michonne is a tough, independent badass – but Jessie embodies “womanhood.” And on and on.

 

It has been said so many times, but it hardly ever seems to sink in: It is progressive and feminist for Black women to be the precious ones, the love interests, the damsels who need saving.

 

So if you instinctively ask why a Black woman can’t just be strong or get upset if she is “reduced to a love interest,” allowed the kind of romantic storyline you take for granted and spit on, the answer is: Your brand of feminism doesn’t apply here.

 

And, you know, that doesn’t negate that brand of feminism. Intersectionality (of all kinds) asks you to look at feminism as something that is complex, not a set of one-size-fits-all rules.

 

In the comic,

Michonne has numerous affairs. She's not a nun. But there, Andrea is the alpha female to Rick's alpha male.

 

In the show, Michonne is the alpha female to Rick's alpha male.  I think Rick and Michonne are endgame.  And unfortunately on this show it means one of them will likely die.  Personally, I loved how Z Nation dealt with their Rick and Michonne. 

[JBody]

I'm hoping Timetoread shows up here at some point  :)

[JBody]

There's been a lot of action in the episode thread but not gonna reply there because it's too OT.

People compare Carol to Michonne as the loveless wonders but it's not the same. See essay above. Also Carol is middle aged, not in her prime like Michonne, which is another shitty trope better suited to Carol's thread. But Carol/Michonne is a false equivalency.

Something I read awhile ago asked its reader to do a thought experiment: go back to the chainlink fence of the prison in season three. Rick is outside. He sees zombies clamouring against the fence. One of them is different. Although covered in gore, she isn't moving like they are, and wait --she's holding a basket of baby formula? And there's a light in her green eyes ---she's not one of them, she's alive! Her pale skin covered in blood, her light brown hair tangled up in guts.... Well you get the idea. How long would it take for people to ship the hell out of them, especially after an episode like Clear, where Carl proclaims she's one of us? They would be shipped, it would be expected. No questions asked. I think the outcome would be different than we've seen with the lady at the fence being black rather than white. Why pretend otherwise. Will the show address this? It's more than a zombie show populated by hackneyed tropes, right Gimple?

Edited November 12, 2015 by JBody

[BrokenRemote]

I sure as heck wouldn't ship that and It doesn't seem that it's a given that it would be expected for them to get together on the basis of that scene.

[JBody]

I sure as heck wouldn't ship that and It doesn't seem that it's a given that it would be expected for them to get together on the basis of that scene.

 

Hey there BrokenRemote, thanks for dropping in.  Was on my own here for a while.  I posted all this stuff before the relationships thread was created. 

 

In response to your reply, I don't think it would be on the basis of that scene, but rather all the scenes afterwards, in the remainder of season 3, and then seasons 4 and 5.  Not much of note in season 6 so far though.  

 

I will probably continue any Richonne talk in the relationships thread (or not; I tend to save my shipping talk for a different board).

[Spartan Girl]

I love that Michonne didn't even hesitate to impale Ron. "Try to shoot us in a field of Walkers?! You've got to go."

[maplebrew]

Yes, Michonne is a character that gets things done. No muss. No fuss. She gets little thanks for her efforts. It's a shame she is so underutilized on the show. Meanwhile, any number of red shirts have sucked attention away from her and other main characters. I know. Common complaint. 

[Timetoread]

She gets little thanks for her efforts. It's a shame she is so underutilized on the show.

 

This is what I came on for.  I was reading one of the articles on Sunday's episode and I noticed that in every description of memorable moments, no one mentioned Michonne impaling that kid - which was very memorable to me.  Actually one poster did speak of "what's her name with the sword" killing the boy.  There is a lot of collective memory of Maggie (who's hot) and Glenn.  Rosita (also hot).  Jessie (smokin hot).  Even talk of random past characters.  Still Michonne is not even a blip on the collective radar as a character on this show - in spite of her right hand man status with the star of the show.  One of the articles listed the 20 best romance/bromance moments and put 4 or 5 Glaggie moments.  At leas 4 Caryl moments.  The Daryl/Rick "you're my brother" moment, but not a single Michonne moment - not her and Andrea, or her and Rick or her and Carl (my favorite of the series). 

 

I don't quite know what to make of this.  I find her to be an integral character, to the point that her absence would leave an irreparable hole in the show for me.  Am I really the only one who notices/likes this character?  Er, we who frequent this board?

[Nashville]

Am I really the only one who notices/likes this character?  Er, we who frequent this board?

You are not alone.

[Janimo]

Nope, there's more of us out there.

[mandolin]

I freaking love Michonne.