S04.E04: Go Ask Roger

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Daniel gets away from the halfway house for awhile when he joins Chloe on an adventure.

[Primetimer]

Desire for gelato, that is -- but the show's ear for what's true is also being overwhelmed by the TV-weirdness of Chloe.

View the full article

[bmoore4026]

I now know why I don't like Chloe - she's a Manic Pixie Dream Girl in a series that doesn't need one.  The last thing you want give an emotionally damaged character like Daniel is fucking Audrey Hepburn Tinker Bell Woman.

[Ms Lark]

Only a handful of episodes left and they keep bringing in new characters. That's unsettling. Hopefully, they'll be able to wrap up everything properly before the end.

Looks like Chloe is gone, I hope, but Tawney seems to be going back to Ted. Hmm. Daniel really needs to acclimate to the real world before he gets mixed up with a manic pregnant pixie. I hope this all turns out ok.

[SusanSunflower]

Chloe obviously has serious boundary issues and so the whole relationship rings false to me.   Daniel is not a teenager ... that was 20 years ago.  Chloe isn't a teenager and she is a pregnant (I think) 30-something woman ... she seems too world weary and shopworn to be under 30, for all her ultra-casual affectations.  Except maybe for some trust-funder, who is that laid back about letting a stranger into their life? No one I have ever met, certainly not a single woman with a man she hardly knows. I may break my TV if it turns out she reminds Daniel of dear-departed Hanna (whose trust seems to have ended in gang rape and her murder) ... feh.   I'm also not really feeling it with Amantha and what's his name ... and I'm not caring.  Ugh -- Teddy with Tawny, because Teddy is all about Teddy except when it serves him to demonstrate otherwise.  His performance at the "meeting" (and pre-meeting meeting) again ... so presumptuous, entitled, bossy and -- yes -- obviously greedy, covetous -- he's one of those perpetually jealous and dissatisfied with his share.  Ugh, spying on his neighbors. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Armchair Critic]

I'm only halfway through the episode but had to comment that I am not an early riser, the hunting, or outdoorsy type  but damn that man is sexy. Also the actor that plays Teddy is great at creating tension, every scene he is in I am afraid he is going to lose it. 

[SusanSunflower]

do we know who roger is? 

[Armchair Critic]

I tried to like Chloe because it would be good for Daniel to have a friend, but she is too annoying and I wouldn't trust her after seeing the way she acted in that musician's house with his things. I think the old man scared Tawney that she will end up all alone but she needs to break from Teddy, I cringe when they are together. Sad to see Janet and Ted Sr. may be heading in that direction too. And poor neglected Jared.

I wrote in a post above that Teddy creates tension in every scene, Trey does too. The acting on this show is wonderful.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Armchair Critic

[SusanSunflower]

Have we ever understood why Teddy so despises his father and considers him "weak" wrt to Janet?  Does this go back to Ted tolerating (iirc) Teddy's substance abusing mother? or that Ted emotionally cheated on his mother with Janet?  (memory is fuzzy)  and then took Teddy and "abandoned her" as far as Teddy knew (only to learn more as an adult).  Or is this just Teddy's usual "poor me" belief that everyone lets him down. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[vixenbynight]

I'm holding out that Chloe could be a good friend for Daniel, because he needs to find someone to help him through his ongoing transition to living his life outside of prison. Yet, I'm glad that Daniel sees that something is just off about her.

I don't consider her to be MPG, but seriously, "What is her deal?!"

He has to learn how to trust his instincts on when someone or something is off around him.

Teddy is still trying to hang onto Tawney, when they both need to let each other go and walk away. They're so not healthy for one another. 

I'm not interested in Amantha's saga.

[SusanSunflower]

Suspect Teddy's issues with his father's "weakness" are projections of his own self-esteem issue wrt being all grown up but still working for his dad (who's arguably working for his wife at her dead husband's successful tire store) or not. On the other hand Ted seems to chaff at his "impotence" and need to defer to Janet's ownership, so he may have in fact set Janet with Teddy as the "witch" standing in the way  of what Teddy thinks should happen, the parents good cop/bad cop, "I'd like to say yes, but your mom..."

Edited November 17, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Stella]

I'm finding it as difficult to admit these new characters into the show universe as the difficulty everyone in the story is having adjusting to Daniel's banishment, trying to get on with their lives. I really enjoyed the first 2 episodes and felt it was a necessary touching base with the central characters. But now I'm uncomfortable with these new situations/characters to the point of disliking them and perhaps that is intentional. Forcing me as a viewer to be just as viscerally effected as the characters by the banishment.

I guess this is one reason I love Jon's scenes because he is the only character still immersed in the 'old' story of Daniel's case. These scenes bring everything back to the core story. Both Amantha's and Daniel's new friends are an intrusion. Billy seems to be a pretty great guy, possibly just the perfect type of person for Amantha to connect with, at least for a while, maybe long term. And since she split with Jon she certainly could be getting involved with new people. Not what I was hoping for however.

But Chloe is utterly annoying and it's difficult to see what this character is adding. It's obvious I guess that Daniel would be meeting and getting to know new people too. Him stumbling into an artists den is pretty believable and I liked that. But Chloe, her pregnancy?!, her attitudes - I see why some are labeling her a manic pixie dream girl. Kind of fits. And definitely dislike her - she is a man's fantasy character IMO.

I had hopes for Teddy. He seemed to be progressing and maybe he is but the old Teddy was sure present in this episode. And the fact that Tawny left the message was very much old Tawny. She is as afraid of being with him as she is of being without him. I wish she could let him go.

Were we supposed to accept that the several times that Tawny and Daniel acknowledged to each other last season that "they couldn't be together" as final? I sure as heck don't feel resolved on their story. And I'm still waiting for Chekov's letter to reappear.

[AuntiePam]

On a totally shallow note -- does Aden Young realize how hot he is?  Day-um.  He reminds me of a young Marlon Brando.  If you've never seen him in The Wild One, check it out.

I didn't mind Chloe so much this week.  She seems to understand his skittery-ness and she does just enough to bring him out, a little bit at a time. 

I loved that Teddy was wrong about the value of the building.  $650K and they get to keep the inventory?  I think selling it would help put Ted Sr. and Janet back together -- start something new, something that can be theirs together.

I think Teddy cried because he realized that he'll never be the right person for Tawney. 

[SusanSunflower]

I thought Teddy was crying because he was so terribly lonely -- unfortunately he hates everyone he knows (except maybe Jared).  He really exemplifies the "hungry ghost" of Buddhism, insatiably surveying the landscape for what he does not have, finding something else to crave. 

He might be excited by the possibilities for his dad and Janet to retire or whatever "his share" of this windfall (if any) ... yet he's consumed with premature fear of change and loss.  He's the teenager who has already spent this windfall 6 different ways, and it's not even his. 

I'm not sure what he thinks he wants from Tawney. I think he knows things aren't going to magically go back to how they were, but he's still angry that that illusion of a happy marriage has been "spoiled" and is out of reach -- "if only Tawney would just ...."  

FWIW, Tawney seems to have lost her sparkle and become dulled (as if it had been longer than days since last season). If Teddy is pacing his/Amantha's apartment like a angry caged animal, I suspect Tawney is crying herself to sleep, feeling like she is being punished.  Married but single, and perpetually treated like a child even as she proves she can live independent and make her own choices. 

[peeayebee]

I liked Chloe more last ep than this one. I still like the actress -- Her eyes are gorgeous -- but the character has gotten on my nerves.

Right now I think the relationship I'm most interested in is Janet and Ted's. He's trying so hard, and she just keeps pushing back. I don't think their marriage is in trouble, but things are just so difficult. I hope they both have a happy visit with Daniel.

The scene with Jon and Trey made me think the show really is going to solve the mystery. I'm curious who Roger is. BTW, remind me who Chris is. George was the one who shot himself, but who's Chris?

[FictionIsntReal]

I liked Chloe more last ep than this one. I still like the actress -- Her eyes are gorgeous -- but the character has gotten on my nerves.

Right now I think the relationship I'm most interested in is Janet and Ted's. He's trying so hard, and she just keeps pushing back. I don't think their marriage is in trouble, but things are just so difficult. I hope they both have a happy visit with Daniel.

The scene with Jon and Trey made me think the show really is going to solve the mystery. I'm curious who Roger is. BTW, remind me who Chris is. George was the one who shot himself, but who's Chris?

Dr. Chris was in the 3rd season of the show. His DNA (along with George Melt's) was found on Hannah Dean. Trey spilled to the sheriff after getting arrested, and then the sheriff confronted Chris. I don't know who Roger is either.

[SusanSunflower]

IMDB isn't helpful -- Could Roger be Roger Rabbit, iow, Who framed Roger Rabbit?  -- absolute guess -- never saw that movie ...

[I-Kare]

I've had a thing for Nathan Darrow for a while now, so I'm thrilled seeing him as Billy. Hopefully they brought Billy into the picture just so Amantha can finally have some happiness/normalcy. 

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Dr. Chris was in the 3rd season of the show. His DNA (along with George Melt's) was found on Hannah Dean. Trey spilled to the sheriff after getting arrested, and then the sheriff confronted Chris.

Thanks. I just went to the Rectify site to remind myself what he looked like.

[kieyra]

22 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

Only a handful of episodes left and they keep bringing in new characters. That's unsettling. Hopefully, they'll be able to wrap up everything properly before the end.

Looks like Chloe is gone, I hope, but Tawney seems to be going back to Ted. Hmm. Daniel really needs to acclimate to the real world before he gets mixed up with a manic pregnant pixie. I hope this all turns out ok.

I don't think Tawney is going back to Ted, because I think Teddy was crying after her voicemail because he knew she was acting out of a sense of duty and guilt and fear. Not love. In other words, I think Teddy is going to be the one to end things. 

Chloe and Daniel still don't click. Not sure what went wrong there. They don't even not-click in a fun way. A very rare misstep for this show. And again I implore people not to blame the actress, who is fab on Masters of Sex.

Shallow note--I struggle with Amantha's scenes because the thinner the actress gets, the bigger her unlikely mermaid hair gets and the more manicured her eyebrows become. And she looks so absurd in the dollar store uniforms and, good God, the camo and hunting hat. I know her fashion sense has always been quirky and that's part of the package, and I get that she doesn't "fit" in Paulie and that's part of the point too. But her "not fitting in", visually, is due to the fact that the actress looks like who she is--someone who should be on some high-budget, mainstream network show. Most of the rest of the cast looks like normal folk--or else the stylists manage to tone down them down as needed.

Her hair deserves its own line in the credits.

[bmoore4026]

10 hours ago, Stella said:

I really enjoyed the first 2 episodes and felt it was a necessary touching base with the central characters. But now I'm uncomfortable with these new situations/characters to the point of disliking them and perhaps that is intentional.

If it weren't the last season and they didn't feel so rushed, maybe the characters would have come across better.  Instead we got a relationship that should have been built over the course of a season smashed and served in three episodes.  That's sloppy writing.  I never understood the need to bring in new characters in a final season unless they were going to be a threat or the Big Bad.

[Stella]

9 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

That's sloppy writing.  I never understood the need to bring in new characters in a final season unless they were going to be a threat or the Big Bad.

Agreed. I get the need to introduce new characters at the house where Daniel lives now but adding new potential relationship partners for Daniel and Amantha is unnecessary and for me unwanted.

I love this show so much and I am overall still very happy with how things are unfolding but it seems like cramming in something that wasn't needed in any way.

[Fisher King]

I was glad to get these final episodes. I have noticed a slight shift to lighten up the tone in places, but I wouldn't call them missteps.  I like Caitlin Fitzgerald and I like Chloe. She has the curious patience to try and understand Daniel - to tap into his own curious psyche. The potential is there for them to be viable for each other. I know this is no ordinary, predictable show but I'll take a clichéd happy ending after all the dread that has been hanging over Daniel since day one.

 

[AuntiePam]

44 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Her hair deserves its own line in the credits.

Preach it!  Is it all hers or are there extensions?  That's way too much hair.

This show is so smart and so layered, I need a bigger brain to truly appreciate it.  Like Amantha relating Daniel's hunting story to Billy, and then we see the way Daniel looked at those hunting trophies at the guy's house.

I don't know what to think about Daniel's reaction to Manny (?) jerking off.  Is it frustration at not being able to control his environment, or control anything?  Like he said to Chloe, he gets dropped off like a teenager and then has to go to the room he shares with a horny dimwit.  It wasn't just sexual frustration on Daniel's part, was it?

[Fisher King]

On 11/17/2016 at 11:41 PM, AuntiePam said:

I don't know what to think about Daniel's reaction to Manny (?) jerking off.  Is it frustration at not being able to control his environment, or control anything?  Like he said to Chloe, he gets dropped off like a teenager and then has to go to the room he shares with a horny dimwit.  It wasn't just sexual frustration on Daniel's part, was it?

It's a direct reaction to what Daniel had to contend with in prison. The awful Wendall dude in the next cell over would taunt Daniel while masturbating.  The last two minutes of this episode were mesmerizing and horrible. I thought it was also rather brilliant. Daniel will never completely lose those ghosts. Part of the PTSD I suppose.

Thanks for that hunting/trophy correlation, Auntie Pam! I missed it.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Fisher King
PTSD & PSTD are not the samer thing.

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Preach it!  Is it all hers or are there extensions?  That's way too much hair.

This show is so smart and so layered, I need a bigger brain to truly appreciate it.  Like Amantha relating Daniel's hunting story to Billy, and then we see the way Daniel looked at those hunting trophies at the guy's house.

I don't know what to think about Daniel's reaction to Manny (?) jerking off.  Is it frustration at not being able to control his environment, or control anything?  Like he said to Chloe, he gets dropped off like a teenager and then has to go to the room he shares with a horny dimwit.  It wasn't just sexual frustration on Daniel's part, was it?

Extensions. Has to be! But why?! Amantha doesn't have time for hair extensions!

On a more serious note, I felt Daniel's reaction to the masturbation was us witnessing one of his PTSD triggers. His PTSD has been a theme this season and in the previouslies. He curled up, rigid, in the fetal position. The obvious conclusion is that he was sexually abused in prison--not sure how, in isolation on death row--or possibly it's from listening to that one psycho he shared a wall with. Who knows what that guy forced him to hear. 

(EDIT: Fisher King and I were on the same track but he/she seems to have more specific memories of the guy in the other cell.)

Or maybe it's repressed memories of the night of the murder? 

Edited November 18, 2016 by kieyra

[AuntiePam]

I'd forgotten about that sadist next to Daniel in prison.  ::shudder::

It's going to be painful to watch, but I'm looking forward to Daniel exploding.  It has to happen.  I'm just hoping it will be the release he needs, the catalyst, and that he'll survive, emotionally.  So far, if I remember right, the only time he's lost control is when he was "choking" the blanket. 

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, kieyra said:

I don't think Tawney is going back to Ted, because I think Teddy was crying after her voicemail because he knew she was acting out of a sense of duty and guilt and fear. Not love. In other words, I think Teddy is going to be the one to end things. 

I think his crying was over a lot of things: the non-offer offer on the business, being alone -- he was watching people having a good time outside -- losing Tawney, listening to her sweet VM after being so terrible on their date... 

 

11 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

If it weren't the last season and they didn't feel so rushed, maybe the characters would have come across better.  Instead we got a relationship that should have been built over the course of a season smashed and served in three episodes.  That's sloppy writing.  I never understood the need to bring in new characters in a final season unless they were going to be a threat or the Big Bad.

I think, hope, that everything that happened with Chloe will have significance later on.

 

10 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

This show is so smart and so layered, I need a bigger brain to truly appreciate it. 

Amen. I often feel that way.

 

Quote

I don't know what to think about Daniel's reaction to Manny (?) jerking off.  Is it frustration at not being able to control his environment, or control anything?  Like he said to Chloe, he gets dropped off like a teenager and then has to go to the room he shares with a horny dimwit.  It wasn't just sexual frustration on Daniel's part, was it?

The first thing I got from this was that Daniel was laying in bed, a smile on his face as he thought about his day with Chloe, kissing her, and then that reverie is intruded upon by the sounds of the roommate masturbating. He wanted to punch the guy -- his hands formed into fists -- but he couldn't. He wanted to flee, but couldn't. Because of my small brain I didn't connect this with masturbating or sexual abuse in prison, but that makes sense too. Like Teddy, Daniel feels powerless.

[rue721]

On 11/17/2016 at 0:14 AM, SusanSunflower said:

Ugh -- Teddy with Tawny, because Teddy is all about Teddy except when it serves him to demonstrate otherwise.  His performance at the "meeting" (and pre-meeting meeting) again ... so presumptuous, entitled, bossy and -- yes -- obviously greedy, covetous -- he's one of those perpetually jealous and dissatisfied with his share.  Ugh, spying on his neighbors. 

I don't think that Teddy's reaction to the meeting was coming from greed or wanting a bigger cut. IMO, he's afraid that Janet is going to sell the place out from under him, so he was trying to sabotage the deal. He came in telling Janet and Ted to hold out for an offer that he clearly thought was much higher than they would actually get. Then he tried to ruin the negotiation by demanding twice the normal amount of earnest money. When it turned out that the offer was too good to pass up, and way more than he had even pressured his parents to hold out for, he looked upset (and then he blew up at Tawney after, saying he was upset) -- IMO because he knew that he wouldn't be able to stop the deal after all. 

Teddy's super invested (emotionally) in that tire store, and everyone else could care less. And that's pretty much the story of Teddy's life. So IMO it makes sense that he's freaking out.

On 11/17/2016 at 10:37 AM, SusanSunflower said:

Suspect Teddy's issues with his father's "weakness" are projections of his own self-esteem issue wrt being all grown up but still working for his dad (who's arguably working for his wife at her dead husband's successful tire store) or not. On the other hand Ted seems to chaff at his "impotence" and need to defer to Janet's ownership, so he may have in fact set Janet with Teddy as the "witch" standing in the way  of what Teddy thinks should happen, the parents good cop/bad cop, "I'd like to say yes, but your mom..."

I don't think that Teddy chafes at deferring to Janet. IMO he likes that it's "a family business," except that the wrench in the works is that he's not really a member of the family. IMO his issue with Ted is that Ted is a constant reminder of that (that Teddy doesn't really have any claim on the family or the business, that he's never going to actually be the person he's pretending to be or wants to be). Ted is the only reminder of Teddy's pre-Holden life/identity in general, and he's also the only one who brings it up explicitly with Teddy that the store and the family aren't really "theirs."

I think that's why Teddy is always trying to reject Ted and close him out. Judging by the way Teddy tried so hard to replace his own mother with Janet, I think he would like to take on a whole new identity and be a whole new person, if he could -- and Ted makes that impossible. But at the same time, Teddy has also chosen to intertwine his life very closely with Ted's. Which imo makes sense in that Teddy is pretty much the epitome of "wherever you go, there you are."

But anyway, that was actually a digression -- I meant to say that bringing up Teddy's mother being an addict reminded me that he should be more careful with his drinking! Since the beginning of the show, he's always tended to "drown his sorrows" a little bit and always seemed to like his beer, but it seems like it's gotten to the point where he actually prefers to drink alone and to get completely sloshed. When he was looking out at the party, imo it was obvious that he was drinking/drunk in a really different way than the party guests were. He told the marriage counselor last season that if Tawney left him, he'd die a long slow death, and seeing him wondering around his apartment drunk made me think of that. But maybe that's heavier than the show was going for.

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I think his crying was over a lot of things: the non-offer offer on the business, being alone -- he was watching people having a good time outside -- losing Tawney, listening to her sweet VM after being so terrible on their date...

I thought that he was crying because he was really touched that she reached out to him. She even told him she loved him. I don't think he was expecting that at all.

IMO he was throwing himself a pity party because he thought that he'd blown it with Tawney at the restaurant. He'd gotten upset with her and left in a big huff, and I think that he thought he'd finally driven her away for good. That's why he let the phone ring and then kind of sneered before he started playing the voicemail IMO; he thought her message was basically going to be a kiss off. So he had prepared himself for that. Her saying she loved him and was sorry for not being there for him was a shock IMO.

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

The first thing I got from this was that Daniel was laying in bed, a smile on his face as he thought about his day with Chloe, kissing her, and then that reverie is intruded upon by the sounds of the roommate masturbating. He wanted to punch the guy -- his hands formed into fists -- but he couldn't. He wanted to flee, but couldn't. Because of my small brain I didn't connect this with masturbating or sexual abuse in prison, but that makes sense too. Like Teddy, Daniel feels powerless.

That's an interesting thought about Chloe. I had figured that Daniel felt like he was back on Death Row, listening to (and being harassed by) Peckerwood. If I'm really honest, I'm still not even sure that Chloe was real? She just seemed like such an archetype. Like the goat man was, but more sophisticated.

Edited November 19, 2016 by rue721

[The Mighty Peanut]

I checked some of the old episodes because I'm a nerd...After Kerwin was executed, Wendell masturbated while telling Daniel he was one of the men who  gang raped him in the shower when he was still a teenager new to the prison system.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/17/2016 at 10:03 PM, Stella said:

Agreed. I get the need to introduce new characters at the house where Daniel lives now but adding new potential relationship partners for Daniel and Amantha is unnecessary and for me unwanted.

I love this show so much and I am overall still very happy with how things are unfolding but it seems like cramming in something that wasn't needed in any way.

This.  Why do we need Chloe when there are characters that Daniel is actually living, working, and interacting with?  I also don't see the need for the guy in the nursing home - OK, fine, we see Tawney at work, but did we need someone who's bordering on Magical Elderly White Person territory (a trope I just made up) with his sage pronouncements?  

[Stella]

rue721 you made so many good points about what Teddy's feelings and motivations may have been in a couple scenes. He is a fascinating character, that's for sure. I felt that in addition to feeling that

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

Janet is going to sell the place out from under him,

which is certainly possible, I felt he was on a sort of ego high in that scene. He thinks of himself as a pretty smart guy and definitely way smarter than Janet or Ted Sr. about the tire business. It was so important to him to get that rim expansion going that he mortgaged his and Tawny's house to do so. At that time he pretty clearly thought that  Ted Sr. didn't have the business acumen and forward thinking to make good business decisions. So when he has "done his homework" and is pretty puffed up to present his findings to Janet and Ted Sr., I couldn't help but see this as ego driven. "Look at me and how smart I am. Especially compared to you 2 who know so little about business." He came on strong in that meeting first with the parents and then with the lawyer partly to demonstrate how smart and capable he is. Looking to be validated and basically getting owned in that meeting.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, I wondered a few weeks ago what became of that wheeling-dealing ambitious Teddy. 

I have a vague memory of Tawney and him once either planning to leave or actually leaving Paulie for some bigger pond, with little success ... leading to the rims rental sideline ... I think he smelled a big pot of money and all the potential that might mean "for the right individual" with the right advice. His denigration of his dad seems to include a "lack of ambition" and marrying the boss's widow . This suggests some masculinity-insecurity in Teddy (that I don't see in Ted), and reflects in his controlling of Tawney and his perfectionism and witheringly judgmental personality. Again, it was a long time ago, but wasn't it that Ted told Teddy basically that his mother walked-out on them (pretty much never looking back, except when she "wanted something" $$$ only to find out as an adult that she left brokenhearted because she couldn't compete with Janet for Ted's affection and her substance use had spiraled out of control . 

I can't remember if she voluntarily "walked out" or if Ted "convinced her" i.e. forced her out.  These episodes are so dense, I can't even find Teddy's mom mentioned in the synopsis. 

[Stella]

24 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I have a vague memory of Tawney and him once either planning to leave or actually leaving Paulie for some bigger pond,

This idea was revealed when Tawny picks up Daniel from his road trip with Trey. She mentions that Ted talked about opening a 'branch' in Florida but it didn't work out. Something along those lines I think. I don't recall any other mentions about this plan.

As to Teddy's mother leaving

27 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

brokenhearted because she couldn't compete with Janet for Ted's affection and her substance use had spiraled out of control . 

I too am a little vague. There is a scene in the kitchen in season 3 between the Teds but I'm not sure which episode. It's definitely after the remodel is complete or nearly so. They talk about the mom and I think your recollection is pretty close. LOL I just watched everything before this season began and still am not 100% on this point but your description is ringing bells.

[AuntiePam]

Here's a transcript of a therapy session with Tawney and Teddy and Rebecca, where Teddy's mother is mentioned:

Third grade, I came home from school one day and Dad was waiting for me in the kitchen.
Said Mom had moved to Florida and wasn't coming back.
Did he tell you why she left? She's an addict.
Or was.
I don't I don't know what she is now.
He told you she was an addict? Well, not then, but later.
What did he tell you at the time? That we were gonna be all right or that it was my fault or clean as you go.
I don't really remember, Rebecca.
Okay.
Do you remember how it made you feel? Not much of anything, to be honest.
Took my cues from Dad.
Did you ever see your mother after she left? Some, when she'd come back to Paulie.
Not in Florida? No.
And how often was that? Uh, every few months at first.
You know, then less and less until one day she just kind of stopped coming.
When was that? I think it was right about the time Dad got remarried.
Are you close to your stepmother? I thought I was.
What do you mean, "thought"? Well, her real son came back, and, uh Things changed considerably, I guess you might say.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Stella said:

which is certainly possible, I felt he was on a sort of ego high in that scene. He thinks of himself as a pretty smart guy and definitely way smarter than Janet or Ted Sr. about the tire business. It was so important to him to get that rim expansion going that he mortgaged his and Tawny's house to do so. At that time he pretty clearly thought that  Ted Sr. didn't have the business acumen and forward thinking to make good business decisions. So when he has "done his homework" and is pretty puffed up to present his findings to Janet and Ted Sr., I couldn't help but see this as ego driven. "Look at me and how smart I am. Especially compared to you 2 who know so little about business." He came on strong in that meeting first with the parents and then with the lawyer partly to demonstrate how smart and capable he is. Looking to be validated and basically getting owned in that meeting.

I don't think that Teddy was trying to show off to them, I think he was trying to manipulate them. Honestly, I thought his pitch about how so-and-so "ran the numbers" was all bullshit, and Teddy just gave the highest number he thought Ted and Janet would believe (when he told them to hold out for $500K). IMO he was just trying to blow the deal, and saying/doing whatever he had to in order to do that.

Teddy is a salesman through and through -- even a conman IMO. He's constantly trying to project whatever image he thinks will allow him to get other people to think what he wants them to think. In that instance, I think he wanted to project the image of someone with a lot of business acumen, someone whose business advice his parents would listen to and respect, because he thought that would allow him to manipulate Ted and Janet into refusing the deal. But it didn't really work. They didn't buy his act, and he was just plain outmatched by the amazing deal anyway.

I still empathize with Teddy, though, because I think he generally just wants what everyone wants -- love, security, etc. He's a sleaze, but not really a bad person, IMO. For example, I think he wants to blow the deal because he's afraid of losing the store, and just being cut loose generally. It seems like that store has been his rock, and has given him a really strong sense of identity, belonging, security...I don't think his motives in wanting to keep it are actually that venal. To be fair to him, too, nobody else really cares about the store and nobody else really cares what he feels about it, so it's not like there's some straightforward way for him to "fight to save it" or anything. And like I said, that's pretty much true all throughout his life. Same thing for his marriage and his family. If it were just the store at risk, it would be one thing, maybe -- but his whole life has already collapsed, so losing the store now would be like having the ground ripped out from under him when he already has nothing left to hang onto IMO.

Also, I think that he started that rim debacle because he knew he was getting shut out of the business/family, and he was desperate to carve out a more secure niche for himself. IMO he was frustrated and upset with Ted during that time because he was feeling rejected and betrayed, like Ted was closing ranks against him along with the Holdens. And along with Tawney, too. He even flat out accused Tawney of siding against him (with Daniel), and IMO that's how he felt about everybody. And to be fair, some of that was just coming from his own insecurity, but some of that was actually pretty well-founded.

I guess in the end, I feel bad for Teddy. He relentlessly bullies people into hurting or rejecting him, and then when they can't take it anymore and actually do, he tells himself that he's relieved that they finally did what he always knew they would. What a way to live.

Teddy is definitely a covetous person, and I completely agree with the Hungry Ghost analogy! That's a fantastic analogy, actually. But IMO his hunger seems like it's coming from a place of deep insecurity, and just never feeling like he's going to be OK -- rather than from a place of greed or entitlement. To me, he seems very brittle.

On 11/17/2016 at 0:26 PM, AuntiePam said:

I think Teddy cried because he realized that he'll never be the right person for Tawney. 

I don't think that's why he cried, but I agree in the sense that IMO Teddy seems to have always thought it was only a matter of time before Tawney left him.

I think that Teddy always thought that one day Tawney would outgrow him and move on. That's why he sees any attempt of growth or independence on her part as very threatening IMO. And why he wanted to anchor her to him with a baby. But also, I think that's why it was such a big deal and a shock to him that, even as an independent woman with a job and doing well in school and everything, Tawney called him and told him she loved him.

IMO Teddy really does adore Tawney -- and sees her a lot like Daniel did, actually. I think they both see her as a light in the darkness. Their reactions to that are very different IMO, but I think that's because of the difference in their perceptions of themselves (and just their worldviews in general). For whatever reason, Daniel still has hope for his own salvation, IMO, and Teddy doesn't. (I mean "salvation" in a metaphysical sense but not necessarily a religious one, BTW).

36 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I can't remember if she voluntarily "walked out" or if Ted "convinced her" i.e. forced her out.  These episodes are so dense, I can't even find Teddy's mom mentioned in the synopsis. 

I've been rewatching some of the older episodes, and IIRC, Teddy told the marriage counselor that he got home from third grade one day to find out that she had up and moved to Florida. The marriage counselor asked him what Ted had to say about her leaving, and Teddy said that he didn't really remember -- maybe that it was Teddy's fault, maybe to "clean as you go," whatever.

I guess Margaret kept coming around once in a while for money, and eventually Ted told Teddy or Teddy realized that she was an addict. Then Ted remarried (Janet) and Margaret stopped coming around at all. Which I thought was interesting, because if she was still coming by when Ted getting with Janet, I guess that means that Teddy was trying to call Janet "mom" and was worried about blowing that remarriage for Ted even while his own mother was still somewhat in the picture? That seems really odd to me. YMMV.

Then, later on (last season's finale?), Ted told Teddy that he (Ted) was partially to blame for Margaret leaving and that it wasn't all on Margaret, because while she was struggling, he'd gotten too close emotionally to another woman. Maybe Janet, but maybe not -- he didn't say. Teddy said again that he thought that it was his fault that Margaret had left, and that he'd been worried every day of his marriage that Tawney would do the same (and that now she had), but Ted didn't really address any of that. He just said that he thought Teddy shouldn't make the same mistakes with Tawney that Ted had with Margaret.

From how he talked about it and from how he distant and uncomfortable he acts with Ted (and Janet), I actually think that Teddy feels a lot of guilt for driving Margaret away, and for essentially ruining Ted's marriage/family/life. That's why he was so worried about driving away Janet, too, IMO. His version of "best behavior" is pretty obnoxious, so it's kind of counterproductive -- but I think that he's on his best behavior with Janet even now.

ETA:

Thanks for the transcript exert, @AuntiePam!

Edited November 19, 2016 by rue721

[SusanSunflower]

I think Teddy is seeing a once in a lifetime pile of money ... it's not for the "business" ... it's for the property and there's no reason the business could not relocate somewhere else, particularly since it's big source of "customers" are state or county contracts that go back to Janet's husband's connections/management. That's part of the issue with the inventory.  I'm surprised relocating to a rental shop was't mentioned. Ted and Janet are old enough that they could semi-retire and set Teddy up as proprietor of his own tire shop (with Ted helping out) ... the offer is because it's a good location / setting for a big-box franchise.   Teddy either sees them with money to invest in him or with him. 

Teddy got slapped down pretty hard... it was a non-offer offer, the "deposit" did not guarantee as sale and -- his "friend" who ran the numbers was woefully wrong, and everyone thought he was being an jerk. How can he keep forgetting that Janet really doesn't like that greedy -- seeing dollar signs -- side of him. After the rental rim fiasco, why would anyone trust his business sense?  (I still haven't gotten over my younger brother "falling" for an Amway like marketing scheme) 

I had wondered about the nuclear Ted, Teddy and Margaret household and how much of an improvement in circumstances hooking up with the owner's wife made to Teddy's quality of life and social standing. His dad was previously just an employee, with his little family. The Holden family home is enormous and gorgeous. I'm guessing Teddy moved into a better neighborhood and better schools when that transition occurred.  (I do not get a sense he felt guilty about this -- kids can -- but the "my mom doesn't love me enough to care" must have been intense). 

IMHO, Teddy always believed that Tawney was a throw-away child with no family that he rescued (demonstrating his big heart and humility, because he might have done "better").  Because Teddy reminds me of my younger brother, I also suspect that he could feel superior in 1000 ways to innocent, passive, dumb Tawney. I don't see him very interested in her, her school, her job.  He talks about himself,  then he lets her talk about herself, your turn, my turn. He says he's glad when it's appropriate, but I get the feeling that for him when the "loving marriage" facade broke, something "magic" was lost and that's not coming back. He's just going through the motions, because he doesn't have any better options (and community property $$$, if any).  He knows he's supposed to "fight for" his marriage....  so he can't go wrong doing the "right thing" 

Edited November 19, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[MaryPatShelby]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we know for a fact that Janet was the woman that Ted Sr had the emotional relationship with.  Also, someone above mentioned Ted marring the bosses widow - do we even know that Ted worked at the tire store before Mr. Lester died?  I don't think we know what Ted did for work before Janet, but if we do, could someone refresh my memory please?

[Stella]

1 hour ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we know for a fact that Janet was the woman that Ted Sr had the emotional relationship with.  Also, someone above mentioned Ted marring the bosses widow - do we even know that Ted worked at the tire store before Mr. Lester died?  I don't think we know what Ted did for work before Janet, but if we do, could someone refresh my memory please?

Thank you for this post. I have the exact same questions.

[SusanSunflower]

I think it came up with Amantha talking about the interval in which, after Daniel went to prison, her father got sick and died and how Ted was a great support to Janet ... then to how Amantha had little time or use (as a high schooler) for Teddy when they moved in.  My impression was that Ted was a long-time acquaintance (and employee although I can't remember anything specific) who helped Janet at the shop by shouldering more responsibility as Mr. Holden got sick and died and then provided emotional support to Janet after he died.  I hadn't thought about their their relationship until he so pointed "confessed" to Teddy about being emotionally unfaithful, excessively invested in someone else and very deliberately did not name or identify that person ... it was an "oh, of course, that would be Janet" moment. He didn't name Janet because he didn't want Teddy to blame Janet for his parent's divorce.  Janet did the books at the tire shop, so she would have interacted with and leaned on Ted on a nearly-daily basis during Mr. Holden's illness.  I don't think either Janet or Ted were "unfaithful" to their spouses and, any romance likely waited until a suitable mourning period had passed. 

I also wondered ... with subsequent mentions of Janet's past (apparently severe) depression(s?), how bad it got after her husband's death.  If she "fell apart" with only Amantha as company -- Daniel in prison -- Amantha's gratitude to (without particular affection for) Ted is explained, imho.  Amantha likes Ted well-enough and is grateful for him "begin there" for her mother, but I'm not sure there's a lot of warmth or closeness.  Hasve we ever seen her share "what's going on with me" with Ted, her dilemmas about where to live, work, do? 

There wasn't a particularly long interval encompassing Daniel going to prison, Mr. Holden getting sick and dying, Ted and Teddy as a 12 or so year old moving in, and Amantha as a high schooler, and Jared getting born ... I'm not sure how many years. I can't recall specifics but my impression is that Daniel, in prison, knew and was comfortable with there being a relationship between Ted and his mother. 

That's all I can tell you. Snippets. Mostly involving Teddy's odd feelings of being not-a-real member of the family.  Which came first, the jealousy or the sense of being lesser. How much of it is projection? I don't know. If Janet's relationship to Jared is any indication, Teddy has nothing to complain about, IYKWIM. Plenty of step-kids resent their step-parents.  Teddy seems to have been resenting his "lesser" status from the get-go.  IDK. 

eta: I wondered if Teddy's sense of inferiority was his transferring his sense of lack of worth from his mother's abandonment onto Janet and the Holdens.  For him,  Daniel and Amantha were "important" and he paled in comparison (when in fact -- for Janet in particular -- they were her older children and had been through the significant shared ordeals of Daniel's "wrongful" conviction and the death of their father).  Totally reasonable for adolescent Teddy to feel unfairly eclipsed. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[rue721]

2 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we know for a fact that Janet was the woman that Ted Sr had the emotional relationship with.  Also, someone above mentioned Ted marring the bosses widow - do we even know that Ted worked at the tire store before Mr. Lester died?  I don't think we know what Ted did for work before Janet, but if we do, could someone refresh my memory please?

I don't remember Ted Sr ever naming who he had the emotional affair with -- I don't think we know for sure who it was.

It's very possible that it was Janet, but IMO the timelines don't completely match up. If Teddy was 8-9 y/o (3rd grade) when Margaret left, and 12 y/o when he met Janet, then I would guess that Ted Sr's emotional affair was around 4 years before he and Janet got together. But 4 years before he and Janet got together, I think that Daniel and Lester were still at home, and Janet wouldn't have been interested in Ted.

To use Amantha as the timeline (LOL), I believe that she was 12 when Daniel went to prison (Teddy would have been 9~), 13 or 14 when her father died, 15 when Ted Sr and Teddy moved in (Teddy was 12), and 16 when Jared was born.

There could have been a few overlapping months between Daniel going to prison and Margaret still being around, but Lester was still in the picture at that point. So IMO the time period when Ted's marriage was falling apart and the time period when Janet's life was falling apart only overlap by a very thin margin or not at all. It's also possible that Janet didn't lean on Ted until after Lester passed, which would have been at least a couple years after Ted and Margaret had split.

So anyway, I think that Janet was probably the woman that Ted had the emotional affair with (and I assumed she was when he mentioned it, just because Ted doesn't seem like the type who has had a whole lot of relationships or who has moved from one relationship to another very quickly) -- but it's also pretty likely that she isn't.

Also, I do vaguely remember that Ted was Lester's employee at the tire store previous to Lester's death/Ted's marriage to Janet. OK, if he was, then I can see more where Teddy's obsession with the tire store is coming from. Although then it's even weirder to me that Ted seems so unattached to it!

[SusanSunflower]

I think -- no, I can't prove it -- that Ted's lack of attachment to the store is because he was an employee (rather than an owner) for all those years, because the store's ability to provide him a steady job and Janet with the house and comfort she is accustomed to, was the fruit of Mr. Holden's connections who got them the state (?) contract for their Fleet of vehicles. (Which was a necessary explanation as to how that tiny tire store in that podunk town, whose lobby is usually empty, can employ Teddy full times for a salary that paid for his townhome and new pickup truck, Tawney's car also new, and the carefully curated interior, etc. etc.)  Teddy's apparent affluence** suggested he was well paid. The Holden home is large and beautifully furnished.  

IMHO, for Ted, it was a job for however good-long-time before Mr. Holden got sick.  It's still a money-maker, but nobody asked him what he'd rather be doing. Ted is a very very decent man.  He accepts that Janet has not added him as co-owner. He accepted that Janet would not let him exile Daniel even after Daniel assaulted Teddy.

We probably won't see much about what's up with Ted., but my guess is that he's in a horrible position. He accepted Janet's grief and depression for years while Daniel was in prison. Now he's out of prison and things are -- miraculously -- worse and there is no "golden ring" or miracle (like Daniel's release) that's going to fix anything.  If this were real life, someone should get Janet to a headshrinker and on some anti-depressants.  Group therapy and volunteering to follow.  She literally has no reason to get out of bed. 

** that loan/mortgage he took out to pay for the rim sideline vanished as an issue. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[SusanSunflower]

just struck me as rather amusing that Amantha is working at the crappy job for low pay and now, reluctantly, living at home... while Daniels is living a barebones existence in a half-way/transition house with an equally going-nowhere job, while Teddy is still working at his apparently very good job at the tire store, living temporarily in Amantha's rental (a generous swap on her part, which he tried to get for cheap) while Tawney is miserably living in the townhome and working her butt of between her unglamorous job at the nursing home and school ... Teddy is still in the catbird's seat, in many ways, the "best off",  and he can't see it. 

[Stella]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

If Teddy was 8-9 y/o (3rd grade) when Margaret left, and 12 y/o when he met Janet, then I would guess that Ted Sr's emotional affair was around 4 years before he and Janet got together. But 4 years before he and Janet got together, I think that Daniel and Lester were still at home, and Janet wouldn't have been interested in Ted.

To use Amantha as the timeline (LOL), I believe that she was 12 when Daniel went to prison (Teddy would have been 9~), 13 or 14 when her father died, 15 when Ted Sr and Teddy moved in (Teddy was 12), and 16 when Jared was born.

For some reason I thought Amantha and Teddy were probably the same age or one year age difference at most. Their relationship being so antagonistic I just assumed they had to deal with each other while attending the same high school If Teddy is 3 years younger then the overlap would be only 1 year and easier for her to ignore him. I can imagine a middle school step brother being a huge pain of course but your analysis is not what I imagined. Now I feel like I want a complete bio on all the characters!

[rue721]

7 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Teddy is still in the catbird's seat, in many ways, the "best off",  and he can't see it. 

Oh yeah, for sure.

IMO Teddy is a miserable person, and that's why he's always making everyone around him miserable, too.

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I also wondered ... with subsequent mentions of Janet's past (apparently severe) depression(s?), how bad it got after her husband's death.  If she "fell apart" with only Amantha as company -- Daniel in prison -- Amantha's gratitude to (without particular affection for) Ted is explained, imho.  Amantha likes Ted well-enough and is grateful for him "begin there" for her mother, but I'm not sure there's a lot of warmth or closeness.  Hasve we ever seen her share "what's going on with me" with Ted, her dilemmas about where to live, work, do?

Amantha had a very hard row to hoe IMO. I get the sense that Janet just sort of checked out after Daniel went to prison, and that had to have been difficult for Amantha -- esp. once her father died. I think that that's when/why she became such a fighter. Everyone just kind of disappeared or checked out, and she was the only one who could/would DO anything.

I can't really imagine her living in that house with her checked out mother, withdrawn and subdued Ted, and Teddy-the-hungry-ghost. It just sounds like hell! LOL.

I think that Amantha respects and trusts Ted, because he was the life-preserver that kept her mom from drowning (or that's how Janet described it, anyway) -- but IMO Amantha doesn't seem to feel at all close to him. She definitely doesn't seem to look to him like a father figure. When Janet has referred to him as "dad," Amantha has corrected her.

To be fair, even Jared seems to have basically no relationship with Ted. I think maybe Ted is a difficult person to be close to.

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Ted is a very very decent man.  He accepts that Janet has not added him as co-owner. He accepted that Janet would not let him exile Daniel even after Daniel assaulted Teddy.

I agree that Ted is a decent guy....but I think those particular instances are more about him being a doormat than him being decent. I think he definitely could have/should have taken more of a stand when it came to Daniel assaulting Teddy. From Ted's perspective, shouldn't he have been worried about leaving Jared in the same house and unsupervised with Daniel? If someone violently sexually assaults one of your kids, how are you not going to do more to protect your other kid from that same guy? I think he kind of shirked his duty toward Jared (and maybe also Teddy) there.

I also think it kind of sucks of Ted that he knows that Teddy's livelihood is in danger right now (because of the store being sold) and is clearly not going to lift a finger to try and preserve his job. Ted reacted the same way when Daniel first came into town and Teddy got worried that Daniel's presence would cause the revenue would drop and Teddy would be out on his ass (or at least replaced by Daniel at the store). I mean, Ted's reaction that time, too, was basically, yeah, you'd be out on your ass. (That's when/why Teddy started the rim rental business IIRC).

And since Ted never pursued even partial ownership (or a partial buyout) for himself, let alone for either of his sons, Teddy is liable not to get a cut of the deal, either. I mean, Janet isn't even giving the Talbots the option to buy her out or try to match the offer -- I don't think the idea has occurred to her, and frankly, everybody knows that they couldn't afford it anyway (even in a sweetheart deal). So IMO Teddy will be lucky if he even gets a severance if the $650K deal goes through. I don't think that Janet is cheap, but IMO she has made it pretty clear that there's a line in the sand between the Holdens, who own the business, and the Talbots, who run it. So I am not expecting that the deal will be a good thing for Teddy, financially or otherwise (and IMO that's why he's trying to blow it).

I don't think that Ted owes Teddy a livelihood or anything. Not even close. I just think it sucks that Ted would see his own son on the cusp of losing his job, and now that he's leveraged to the hilt and supporting two households no less, and still just shrug his shoulders and defer to Janet. Honestly, even if Ted were JUST Teddy's manager and not also his father, I would still expect him to show more loyalty toward his own direct report (of more than a decade) than that.

Ted just doesn't really ever go to bat for his kids and IMO it's kind of messed up. Doesn't make him a bad person, but it makes him frustrating to watch IMO. And I understand why he doesn't have especially good relationships with his kids in light of that.

[SusanSunflower]

I don't think we have any timeframe wrt the "offer" so Teddy's livelihood is not in jeopardy and he knows as much as anyone ... the site may not in fact be the one finally selected. As I mentioned earlier, there's no reason the store couldn't relocate to a less "prime/traffic" location.  If it's doing return/fleet business, it doesn't need the visibility. It just needs some bays and some hoists  In the south, without snow, it likely doesn't even need central heating (I live where winter with snow is 7-8 months long).  

I think Janet didn't want to be pushed into anything and only wanted to avoid that by not immediately telling Teddy, who is such a worrywart. She would have known he'd be contingency planning and strategizing.  I don't think she or Ted want to change anything, but there's no harm in hearing the offer.  My guess is that Teddy will declare that this is a "once in a lifetime" chance (which it likely is), and that they should seize it, because $$$$. So, in fact, my guess is that whether they consult him or not he'd be the one pushing for them to go forward (but I may not be remembering everything he said to Tawney at the diner). 

[pasdetrois]

Quote

I now know why I don't like Chloe - she's a Manic Pixie Dream Girl in a series that doesn't need one. 

Quote

I struggle with Amantha's scenes because the thinner the actress gets, the bigger her unlikely mermaid hair gets and the more manicured her eyebrows become. And she looks so absurd in the dollar store uniforms and, good God, the camo and hunting hat.

 These two characters are mis-steps in this nearly perfect show.

Clayne Crawford does so much with his scenes. I wonder if he will have a fantastic career; he has some kind of buddy movie coming out.

Edited November 25, 2016 by pasdetrois

[The Mighty Peanut]

I doubt Janet would totally ice the Teds out of the deal. A little over half a million dollars would go a long way in Paulie. Worst case scenario--Janet decides to divorce Ted. He's entitled to 50% of her assets, and has been integral to running the shop which would have otherwise probably gone out of business. He's got a strong case and Amantha knows a good lawyer. ;)