Rick: Lord of the Thangs

[ghoulina]

Well... season 4 Rick hasn't had somebody try to bash in his head over a tub and EAT his ass.  So, there's that.

You can call S5 Rick unhinged, if you want - I call him more experienced.  :)

 

That's basically how I felt. Early season 4 Rick had been through some shit...but it only got worse. They lost the prison, he saw his mentor and good friend beheaded, he thought his daughter was dead for several days, he almost died himself. He saw his son almost raped and then had the chomp into the throat of another dude to stop said rape and murder. He was then captured by cannibals and held at a trough, where he watched four other men's gullets slashed. He saw the rooms full of personal possessions, including all the stuffed animals. Then those freaking cannibals escaped (because no one would listen to him!) and ate one of their legs anyhow! 

 

Sure, everyone's been through fucked up shit. But that business with Carl and Joe's group - that was the worst. And that was his kid. Also, he's the leader, so I think he carries a lot more guilt/burden than anyone else. I think he really crossed a line that day. I'm not saying that in a bad way, but maybe he really just had no fucks left to give. He realized that day he would do WHATEVER to protect his people. And you have to act fast. No mother dithering over shit being the right call or not. Does that mean sometimes he may do the wrong thing? Yea, but he's just not willing to take that risk with his people anymore. 

 

They gave Terminus their trust, and look how that almost ended. I can understand him being very, very leary about trusting a new place. I definitely think Rick looks a bit unhinged lately, but I don't think he's done anything yet that makes me think he's gone completely over to the dark side or anything. The Jury's still out for me. 

[Nashville]

I've never had a problem with Rick's increasing slide into darkness.

 

But is it a slide into darkness?

Or an emergence from the now-irrelevant constraints of pre-ZA morality, into an illuminating recognition of what is required to survive in this Brave New World?

Or both? :)

[ghoulina]

Two things: holding your gun up and putting someone in its sights is not the same as reaching down and touching your gun. Not close. And we'd had weeks, if not months, at that point of other scenes that told us Shane had a problem with Rick.

 

Exactly. Like I said before, living the way they did for so long, I wouldn't be the bit surprised if ALL of them had an itchy trigger finger. Seconds count, and that instinct can be hard to bury. That instinct to just reach for your gun when something raises a red flag. They'd been in ASZ what, 2 days at that point? He was still living on "out there" mentality. But the point is, he didn't DO anything. 

[JBody]

My apologies if I seemed to insinuate your feeling that Rick is creepy has to do with shipping. I understand now that some people are getting a creepy/crazy vibe from Rick. I was basically assuming people here meant it in the same way as those in the "Forget" episode thread who were saying Rick was coming off creepy like a rapist in his interactions with Jessie. It was said so many times that it seemed like it just became shorthand to call Rick creepy if you didn't like the Jesdie plot line.

Sorry to anyone I offended. I agree that Rick's giving off a crazy vibe. I think he's been doing that since Lori died.

 

No worries!  Honestly.  Things get lost in translation all the time -- to paraphrase Dale, "words are paltry things" (surely he ripped that off from someone).  Rick's descent into the madness of grief in S3 just seems different than this new behaviour Rick is exhibiting.  He came back from Crazytown in S4 but after ripping Joe's throat out and dealing with the Termites his craziness has acquired a more sinister edge to it, which is chilling.  AL is a helluva compelling actor however so I'm still watching but his portrayal of him currently gives me the heebie jeebies.  Like when he told Carol and Daryl, "We’ll make it work. If they can’t make it, then we’ll just take this place."  What? The whole might is right idea is not something I associate with Rick.

[mandolin]

Shane holding Rick in his sights concerned me much more than Rick touching his gun. It was only a couple days after Rick got to the quarry, and they weren't that far out from being in a functional society. It actually shocked me at the time that Shane was that far gone already.

[JBody]

That's basically how I felt. Early season 4 Rick had been through some shit...but it only got worse. They lost the prison, he saw his mentor and good friend beheaded, he thought his daughter was dead for several days, he almost died himself. He saw his son almost raped and then had the chomp into the throat of another dude to stop said rape and murder. He was then captured by cannibals and held at a trough, where he watched four other men's gullets slashed. He saw the rooms full of personal possessions, including all the stuffed animals. Then those freaking cannibals escaped (because no one would listen to him!) and ate one of their legs anyhow! 

 

Sure, everyone's been through fucked up shit. But that business with Carl and Joe's group - that was the worst. And that was his kid. Also, he's the leader, so I think he carries a lot more guilt/burden than anyone else. I think he really crossed a line that day. I'm not saying that in a bad way, but maybe he really just had no fucks left to give. He realized that day he would do WHATEVER to protect his people. And you have to act fast. No mother dithering over shit being the right call or not. Does that mean sometimes he may do the wrong thing? Yea, but he's just not willing to take that risk with his people anymore. 

 

They gave Terminus their trust, and look how that almost ended. I can understand him being very, very leary about trusting a new place. I definitely think Rick looks a bit unhinged lately, but I don't think he's done anything yet that makes me think he's gone completely over to the dark side or anything. The Jury's still out for me. 

 

Ah Ghoulina, you and I think alike most of the time.  I don't think he's gone completely over to the dark slide either but he's on that slippery slope and I am not liking it.  There has to be a way to protect one's family without fucking up everything and everyone else around you, especially in a preemptive way based on the fact your supposed adversaries *might* be up to no good, or simply incompetent.  He and Carol are so dismissive of the ASZhats (yes, I know) and fully anticipate taking the safe zone from those bumbling fools.  I find their attitude chilling.

OMG I just realized something.  I've turned into a Dale!

[kj4ever]

Ah Ghoulina, you and I think alike most of the time.  I don't think he's gone completely over to the dark slide either but he's on that slippery slope and I am not liking it.  There has to be a way to protect one's family without fucking up everything and everyone else around you, especially in a preemptive way based on the fact your supposed adversaries *might* be up to no good, or simply incompetent.  He and Carol are so dismissive of the ASZhats (yes, I know) and fully anticipate taking the safe zone from those bumbling fools.  I find their attitude chilling.

OMG I just realized something.  I've turned into a Dale!

I think that if Rick was that far gone he already would have taken the ASZ and wouldn't be messing around with figuring things out.  I mean they could probably take out the whole town of them in one night while they slept.

[Morrigan2575]

i was at a party this weekend and we talked about TWD, lots of interesting discussions man similar to what we talk about here. One of the topics was the Rick/Gun scene at the end of last week's episode. One of the guys said that Rick reached for the gun because he heard thw Walker not because of Jessie/Pete.

I was wondering what people thought of that? I don't have the episode on my DVR so I can't check it out but it makes more sense then Rick wanting to kill Pete and claim Jessie after a few days.

[kj4ever]

i was at a party this weekend and we talked about TWD, lots of interesting discussions man similar to what we talk about here. One of the topics was the Rick/Gun scene at the end of last week's episode. One of the guys said that Rick reached for the gun because he heard thw Walker not because of Jessie/Pete.

I was wondering what people thought of that? I don't have the episode on my DVR so I can't check it out but it makes more sense then Rick wanting to kill Pete and claim Jessie after a few days.

Every single man I've talked to outside of this board thought the same thing.

[kikismom]

Every single man I've talked to outside of this board thought the same thing.

In a way it was similar to what we saw this last episode with Abraham feeling something bad come over him, then seeing the birds (which nobody else paid attention to in the construction crew), then going into defense mode.

 

I remember reading some Viet Nam vet memoirs and the ones who were on multiple tours talked of just eating or playing cards or walking or something and having this feeling come over them---not a specific known threat with a name to put to it but the body was already ramping up to fight. The weird thing they had felt would be correct;  someone sneaking into their camp or following them.

Our subconscious mind and our senses pick up cues before out intellectual brain sorts out things. A smell, a faint sound, an infinitesimal movement of a leaf, a change in the buzzing of insects.

[Pete Martell]

Two things: holding your gun up and putting someone in its sights is not the same as reaching down and touching your gun. Not close. And we'd had weeks, if not months, at that point of other scenes that told us Shane had a problem with Rick.

And Rick is not embroiled in a murder plot. He hasn't even responded to what Carol said to him. Carol telling Rick the things she told him can't be "proof" that Rick touching his gun last week means he wants to murder Pete--that scene was Carol's words and actions, not Rick's.

 

In this case, I think it's pretty close, given that the episode after he was tempted to draw his gun, the talk starts about how Pete has to die. I think the scene was designed to make people see how much Rick needs Jessie and to question how far he will go, if he will go as far as Shane did. Yet the whole thing was done in such an odd manner that many insisted his behavior was perfectly fine and viewers were hating on him and don't know real men, or what have you.

 

Unless Rick says, "We can't do anything like that, murder is wrong," and Carol agrees and never mentions it again, then I have to assume it's all connected, and that this is going to be some type of murder plot. And that's where the writing seems so rushed and blurry to me, and so disconnected.

i was at a party this weekend and we talked about TWD, lots of interesting discussions man similar to what we talk about here. One of the topics was the Rick/Gun scene at the end of last week's episode. One of the guys said that Rick reached for the gun because he heard thw Walker not because of Jessie/Pete.

I was wondering what people thought of that? I don't have the episode on my DVR so I can't check it out but it makes more sense then Rick wanting to kill Pete and claim Jessie after a few days.

 

So that was before the new episode aired, right?

 

It again tells me the show didn't get this scene right, because I do think the two were supposed to be connected, especially since there was no indication that Rick was all that scared about walkers (he seemed fascinated in the final shot, and wasn't shown reaching for his gun then).

[Pete Martell]

I don't remember them ever talking about having a connection?  I mean they obviously do, there was serious chemistry between them in the kiss on the cheek scene.  But did they talk about it?  I'm confused...Or do you mean the fans see a connection?

 

I don't think where Rick's story is vague at all.  From what I've seen so far he is terrified to bring his children to a new place after all that has happened before.  He is not going to be all trusting with these people for a long time.  A nice and compassionate woman comes and cuts his hair.  She offers to help his son meet other kids his age.  She tells him it's ok if he's not ok with the situation.  I really think the kindness and gentleness endeared him to her, sam as when he's freaking out because he doesn't know where Carl and Judith are.  She talks to him in that kind, gentle voice as she talks him down from the ledge.

 

Rinse and Repeat at the party.  Rick is relaxing a bit more then he is used to because of the alcohol and after she is kind to him yet again he kisses her on the cheek and it's awkward, but I think they both go "oh".

 

I think people blame the few that don't see if this way on the Richonne brigade and the like because so much is interjected that most just did not see.  Why else would there be such hate for something that seems clear as day to so many, and not in a rapey, possessive, contrived sort of way.  I'm not kidding, it dumbfounds me every time I read one of those posts because I saw nothing like that at all.

 

The connection talk is from the actress, and I think Andrew Lincoln may have said similiar things in BTS videos.

 

If it happened this way then I think I'd understand the story more. As it is, I feel like his interaction with her just made him paranoid and in need to control in different ways than how he'd been before Alexandria. When I see him look at her I don't see tenderness or affection. There's something very...cold about him with her that unsettles me.

[Pete Martell]

I've been thinking about this post, and I think it explains why I just can't wrap my head around the concern over this story. I guess I watch TV in a far different way. If I like a show then I sit back and let the stories unfold, assuming I'll understand what's going on when the story gets to the point where it's laid out or comes to a climax. I wouldn't ever be thinking I'm supposed to figure out what's going to happen down the road and react to it; I'm happy to wait and see. So yours is just a way different manner of TV viewing than mine, and maybe it helps explain why there seems to be such a divide in viewers' reaction to this story.

 

That's the ideal way to watch TV, and I try to do that, but sometimes when material is too ambiguous to the point where nothing seems consistent to me anymore, I do start to question what the motives are. And with this show, there are many times where what the show talks about (especially with Lori's stories and Andrea's stories) rarely match what I see onscreen. That's why I find myself wondering what they're saying, because otherwise, if I'm watching just the show, I would think Rick is a real danger to Jessie, just in a different way than Pete.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I just wanted to say that I realize I've posted about 50 times in this thread the last few days, so I've decided not to post any more about Rick until the next episode. If I ignore any replies you make to me, it's not because I'm being an asshole who thinks your opinions don't matter. I am an asshole in many cases, but that isn't the case here. I just feel like I've talked myself into the point of self-parody.

[Bongo Fury]

But is it a slide into darkness?

Or an emergence from the now-irrelevant constraints of pre-ZA morality, into an illuminating recognition of what is required to survive in this Brave New World?

Or both? :)

 

Yeah, I'm of the same mind on this. I think we are just seeing a Rick who has adapted to the new reality. Is he darker? Sure. But it's a hell of a dark world he lives in. Rick has been through the Randall incident where they moralized over and over about what they should do. That is why he is at the point where today he just runs down officer Bob and shoots him. It wasn't pretty, but it was what needed to be done. 

 

And Rick is no more a bad guy today than he was when he woke up from the coma. He isn't moving in and taking over in ASZ. He isn't trying to subvert them. He is making an honest attempt to integrate into THEIR community. But while being aware how naive these people are and making contingencies in case CDB needed to step in and take control. He has good intentions for ASZ, but his eyes are wide open.

 

Rick has always (almost always, the Michonne incident) been loyal to everyone in his 'group', whether it's going back for Meryl early on or sticking up for Noah against Dawn at Grady, he protects them all(even Judas, er, I mean FPP). And acts in their best interest. Does he F it up occasionally? Sure, he's human. But come the ZA, I'd he happy to be a member of the Rictatorship, all things considered.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Bongo Fury

[Frame Worker]

I just came to a realization about the gun touch: it has nothing to do with Pete. Rick is carrying a visible sidearm. If that was a 'must kill' or 'must cop' reflex his hand would have gone to the peacemaker. Instead, it's got to be a direct response to the A flash, "you're one of us now!" He touches the hidden gun 8 inches away from the visible one...no I am not. Not really. Maybe that's a guilty touch, like when he hesitates to take it from Carol for a moment. He's breaking the ASZhat's trust by having it. Instead of a scarlet letter burning on his hand, he has a pistol burning under his jacket. Or maybe it's a reaffirmation, I haven't drunk the kool-aid.

 

Which also puts a spin on the "I love you wall" scene right after. He's happy to hear the zombie because that's the justification for breaking trust. There is danger, as peaceful as this place looks, there's still zombies out there, and still the same potential problems in here. 

[ghoulina]

i was at a party this weekend and we talked about TWD, lots of interesting discussions man similar to what we talk about here. One of the topics was the Rick/Gun scene at the end of last week's episode. One of the guys said that Rick reached for the gun because he heard thw Walker not because of Jessie/Pete.

I was wondering what people thought of that? I don't have the episode on my DVR so I can't check it out but it makes more sense then Rick wanting to kill Pete and claim Jessie after a few days.

 

I have not heard/seen anyone say that, but I think that's another interesting, and possible, theory. Perhaps his fine-tuned hearing picked up the walker sounds, but he was distracted by Porch Dick and Jessie. Then after they passed he honed in on where the walker was coming from. 

I just came to a realization about the gun touch: it has nothing to do with Pete. Rick is carrying a visible sidearm. If that was a 'must kill' or 'must cop' reflex his hand would have gone to the peacemaker. Instead, it's got to be a direct response to the A flash, "you're one of us now!" He touches the hidden gun 8 inches away from the visible one...no I am not. Not really. Maybe that's a guilty touch, like when he hesitates to take it from Carol for a moment. He's breaking the ASZhat's trust by having it. Instead of a scarlet letter burning on his hand, he has a pistol burning under his jacket. Or maybe it's a reaffirmation, I haven't drunk the kool-aid.

Which also puts a spin on the "I love you wall" scene right after. He's happy to hear the zombie because that's the justification for breaking trust. There is danger, as peaceful as this place looks, there's still zombies out there, and still the same potential problems in here.

 

Wow. Really, really insightful post. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it really makes a lot of sense. Both Rick and Daryl were hesitant to take the stolen guns, after their experiences the night before. Rick did end up taking his. So yea, seeing Jessie flashing that "you're included" sign at him may have made him feel guilty for taking the gun, or it may have made him feel guilty for allowing them to include him, when he knows he really can't ever be one of them. He may very well have been fingering the gun as a reminder that he has already broken their trust. Yea, I like that. 

[tennisgurl]

Oh Rick, what have they done to you? Turning into Shane 2.0 over some random chick? I mean, this could really be about his clear PTSD, but right now, it just seems like some psychotic love triangle. 

 

Seriously, Rick losses it over...this?

[CletusMusashi]

When he first became an ASZcop, shouldn't he have asked about the legal system? 

And maybe had a carpenter or somebody make a decent nightstick, so if he got in a fight with a bunch of mean drunks, or maybe just one really big mean drunk, he wouldn't have to shoot or throat-bite them?

And started thinking about things to do with criminals? I imagine a lot of them get community service, which is fine. But if somebody just isn't cooperating with that plan, you might still want something less drastic then exile. I mean, what if they're just a misbehaving child, for example?

I think humiliation should be part of the ASZ police system. Every time you have to beat down Pete with a club, you put him in the stocks for a day, with no alcohol. Or lock him in a room with FPP and Eugene. Or make him smell Daryl's vest? He'd get the message soon enough.

[kikismom]

Oh Rick, what have they done to you? Turning into Shane 2.0 over some random chick? I mean, this could really be about his clear PTSD, but right now, it just seems like some psychotic love triangle. 

 

Seriously, Rick losses it over...this?

Because...he didn't seem like he had lost it already?

In the barn in the car at the gates all the crazy shit before he even met her?

He punched an unarmed outnumbered man for bringing them water and just talking? Michonne knew he was OOC then.

He was totally ignoring Maggie and Sasha and Glenn and MIchonne (who were evaluating Aaron's offer with logic) because he needed to roll his eyes and start yelling about people in the trees and shit.

When they get to the gates, he has Sasha shoot and sniffs you're lucky we're here....even though the walker was outside the gates and they had walls and it wasn't going to get in anyway.

 

Crap, I thought he was off-balance at the very beginning of the first episode of the back eight, when he just keeps hauling Judith like she's a sack of potatoes and even Daryl Dixon has to tell him...she's hungry! and Rick is She's okay!

[Caelicola]

Nothing much to add, I just want to say that kikismom, you're probably my walking dead soulmate, because I find myself completely agreeing with everything you write.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Caelicola

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, kikismom that`s...a pretty good point. 

[Pete Martell]

Because...he didn't seem like he had lost it already?

In the barn in the car at the gates all the crazy shit before he even met her?

He punched an unarmed outnumbered man for bringing them water and just talking? Michonne knew he was OOC then.

He was totally ignoring Maggie and Sasha and Glenn and MIchonne (who were evaluating Aaron's offer with logic) because he needed to roll his eyes and start yelling about people in the trees and shit.

When they get to the gates, he has Sasha shoot and sniffs you're lucky we're here....even though the walker was outside the gates and they had walls and it wasn't going to get in anyway.

 

All of that behavior was extreme, but made sense because of Terminus.

 

Rick saying he wouldn't help anyone else if they were abused? 

 

That's not Rick to me. If that was Rick I would have hated him even in ways I could never bring myself to hate Shane.

 

And I can't even say it was done to show us darkness, because I think someone actually believed that showed a great romantic connection between Rick and Jessie.

[mandolin]

and sniffs you're lucky we're here....even though the walker was outside the gates and they had walls and it wasn't going to get in anyway.

 

Come on now, he says, "Good thang we're here." I know you know your lines...

 

I think Rick is suffering..a lot. People just seem to be more accepting of how Sasha's PTSD is playing out...or Michonne's. Rick, always the leader, the front man, is having a bigger, more dramatic fall. And hasn't he always? 

 

I mentioned in the ep thread I didn't care for his fall being related to just feelings for Jessie. They could've played more on that he remembers Carol's situation and hated the situation, or another child being abused, but it is what it is I suppose.

[ghoulina]

All of that behavior was extreme, but made sense because of Terminus.

Rick saying he wouldn't help anyone else if they were abused?

That's not Rick to me. If that was Rick I would have hated him even in ways I could never bring myself to hate Shane.

 

Agreed. I have no problem with Rick being unhinged. It totally makes sense that he would be losing it a bit. But they WAY they're going about it is making him totally unsympathetic to me. Crazy or not, Rick would still care about other people being abused. They're just turning him into this singular-minded prick and it's really not believable at all. If he started freaking out because Deanna is letting a known abuser continue his abuse, and got into a nasty fist fight, I'd be fine with it. It's the, "No, I'd only do this for you" crap that takes me right out of the show. 

[kikismom]

Come on now, he says, "Good thang we're here." I know you know your lines...

 

I think Rick is suffering..a lot. People just seem to be more accepting of how Sasha's PTSD is playing out...or Michonne's. Rick, always the leader, the front man, is having a bigger, more dramatic fall. And hasn't he always? 

 

I mentioned in the ep thread I didn't care for his fall being related to just feelings for Jessie. They could've played more on that he remembers Carol's situation and hated the situation, or another child being abused, but it is what it is I suppose.

Oooh, you got me on the line! I stand corrected; thank you mandolin!

 

I think the characters, and perhaps some viewers, forget that his leadership has given him extra to be PTSD about. They've all lost people now. But who carries responsibility for the decisions?

I think he can't deal with making those decisions anymore, but he doesn't want to give up leadership either. He's screwed either way, so he is retreating mentally to a time when he didn't have all this bullshit. That is unrealistic of course; but not unheard of for people to want to mentally live in the better days in their head.

[mandolin]

Oooh, you got me on the line! I stand corrected; thank you mandolin!

 

I think the characters, and perhaps some viewers, forget that his leadership has given him extra to be PTSD about. They've all lost people now. But who carries responsibility for the decisions?

I think he can't deal with making those decisions anymore, but he doesn't want to give up leadership either. He's screwed either way, so he is retreating mentally to a time when he didn't have all this bullshit. That is unrealistic of course; but not unheard of for people to want to mentally live in the better days in their head.

I watched that line and the following swagger many times. :)

 

YES. That paragraph. YES. Thank you. He never wanted this (and I mentioned this recently, go back and see Vatos Guillermo's speech about being leader!).

[maplebrew]

Rick goes spectacularly bat shit crazy once in awhile so I have confidence that he can pull back from this current bout. Hershel tried to talk to Rick, Michonne clunks him on the back of the skull. Her method is the proper choice. 

[ghoulina]

Yea, it's quite possible she knocked whatever had rattled loose back into place. Or maybe he just needs a Snickers. He appears to go full Shane when he's hungry.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Maybe it could be handled a bit better, but I have no problem with Rick 'losing it'.  As mentioned above, he's shouldering not only just the same things as everyone else, but being "the leader", everything sort of falls back to him because of that position.  For instance, Tyreese may have been Sasha's direct blood relation, but Rick is the leader and was leading the mission where Tyreese was killed.  That's a lot of stuff, from S1 to now, that just keeps adding up and piling on to his conscience and psyche.

 

If he were completely mentally balanced and unaffected by everything, that would make for some serious just what the hell is wrong with this guy?!-worthy discussion.

[flutist4fun]

Maybe it could be handled a bit better, but I have no problem with Rick 'losing it'.  As mentioned above, he's shouldering not only just the same things as everyone else, but being "the leader", everything sort of falls back to him because of that position.  For instance, Tyreese may have been Sasha's direct blood relation, but Rick is the leader and was leading the mission where Tyreese was killed.  That's a lot of stuff, from S1 to now, that just keeps adding up and piling on to his conscience and psyche.

Agree about the 'leader' burden being the straw that breaks him. Remember at the grave at the end of the Tyreese episode when Rick takes the shovel and just keeps going, so we can hear the sound over the final fade-out? That IMO was a guy suffering deep, deep pain and guilt, mixed. I felt so bad for him in that moment (almost more than for Sasha) b/c it was One More Loss. And in his mind I think it is All On Him.

[kikismom]

I also thought about that when Reg was saying you brought 14 people through this, that's an achievement [paraphrase].

Rick just looks at him; I wondered if he was thinking Yes, except there were dozens more I was the leader of. 14 is how many are left.

[flutist4fun]

Rick just looks at him; I wondered if he was thinking Yes, except there were dozens more I was the leader of. 14 is how many are left.

Ahh, that hadn't occurred to me. It is such a sad thought. So human, to focus only on the failures. Yes, I guess Rick is overdue for his next breakdown. I'm almost scared to see how it all plays out.

It's one of the things I love about the show, all the undercurrents. I don't find that with most tv shows.

[Pete Martell]

Maybe it could be handled a bit better, but I have no problem with Rick 'losing it'.  As mentioned above, he's shouldering not only just the same things as everyone else, but being "the leader", everything sort of falls back to him because of that position.  For instance, Tyreese may have been Sasha's direct blood relation, but Rick is the leader and was leading the mission where Tyreese was killed.  That's a lot of stuff, from S1 to now, that just keeps adding up and piling on to his conscience and psyche.

 

If he were completely mentally balanced and unaffected by everything, that would make for some serious just what the hell is wrong with this guy?!-worthy discussion.

 

I think one of many reasons this story does not work for me is because most of the idea of him feeling the burden of a group has been erased since Alexandria. He is only acting that way in a broad sense of how he has to take care of people who are too stupid or sheltered to be able to take care of themselves. When Glenn talked to him about Noah his only reaction was essentially, "Yeah that's why we'll take over." When people kept telling him Tara could die if he killed Pete, he didn't bat an eye, even though she's a member of his group. When Jessie asked him if he would ever help anyone but her if they ever needed help, he reassured her that he wouldn't. 

 

He has become a "leader" in the way that Shane was a "leader" - wanting to call the shots, but only caring about the actual welfare of a small handful of people (Jessie and her children).

Edited March 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kikismom]

I think one of many reasons this story does not work for me is because most of the idea of him feeling the burden of a group has been erased since Alexandria.

My own different opinion is that's not how a breakdown works.

People fracture when they can't find an outlet to work out their bottled up business.

 

Haven't you ever seen Hoarders? Would you watch those people and say Well, that woman is no longer troubled by the death of her daughter and her parents, her real problem now is lack of Rubbermaid storage tubs. That man isn't clinically depresssed, he needs his vision checked because he has 7000 cookie jars from floor to ceiling in every room of the house.

 

I don't believe all the burden of guilt, self-loathing, regret, frustration, resentment, fear, depression, and more guilt has just been tossed aside when he moved to a nice yuppie house. I never would think any person could just let it go when it's as much as he's been carrying. I do think he is retreating from dealing with a lot of it, I do think he is trying different escapist solutions: regression to better days, disconnection from the destruction of more of his people, separating from anything or anyone who is likely to trigger that mental doorlock finally givingway and letting all hell break loose.

 

But that's just me.

[Pete Martell]

I get what you're saying. It's just that I don't feel the show has done a good job writing his current breakdown, in large part because they want to marry a love story with it and because they have had so many incompetent, corrupt towns that it's difficult for viewers who have been invited to cheer for the destruction of Woodbury, Terminus, etc. to now say, "Wait a minute..."

 

I wish I could believe he was breaking down from pressures, but as long as they continue to romanticize things like him saying he will choose Jessie over anyone, then I can't invest in the story or in the idea that we're supposed to see him as falling apart.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[flutist4fun]

I don't believe all the burden of guilt, self-loathing, regret, frustration, resentment, fear, depression, and more guilt has just been tossed aside when he moved to a nice yuppie house. I never would think any person could just let it go when it's as much as he's been carrying. I do think he is retreating from dealing with a lot of it, I do think he is trying different escapist solutions: regression to better days, disconnection from the destruction of more of his people, separating from anything or anyone who is likely to trigger that mental doorlock finally givingway and letting all hell break loose.

Beautiful post.

[kikismom]

Beautiful post.

Thank you.

[kj4ever]

I think one of many reasons this story does not work for me is because most of the idea of him feeling the burden of a group has been erased since Alexandria. He is only acting that way in a broad sense of how he has to take care of people who are too stupid or sheltered to be able to take care of themselves. When Glenn talked to him about Noah his only reaction was essentially, "Yeah that's why we'll take over." When people kept telling him Tara could die if he killed Pete, he didn't bat an eye, even though she's a member of his group. When Jessie asked him if he would ever help anyone but her if they ever needed help, he reassured her that he wouldn't. 

 

He has become a "leader" in the way that Shane was a "leader" - wanting to call the shots, but only caring about the actual welfare of a small handful of people (Jessie and her children).

Pete attacked Rick.  He didn't go in there and say "I'm going to kill you Pete."  In fact he said "I'm TRYING not to kill you Pete."  He tried to get a violent, dangerous man away from his wife and children.  That's kind of what cops are supposed to do.

Hi Ho Silver!

[Pete Martell]

Pete attacked Rick.  He didn't go in there and say "I'm going to kill you Pete."  In fact he said "I'm TRYING not to kill you Pete."  He tried to get a violent, dangerous man away from his wife and children.  That's kind of what cops are supposed to do.

 

I'm not sure where I said Rick went in there saying he would kill Pete. What I said was that it's difficult for me to believe he feels stress as a leader at this point when I saw little to no interest or reaction in Noah dying or in being told that his actions could potentially kill Tara. 

 

If the story was presented this way - a cop trying to uphold the law in a lawless world - it would be more interesting to me. Unfortunately, the decision to write it as part of a love affair (and to have Rick tempted to go for his gun before he even knew about the abuse) mars that for me. The show made it into a love triangle, and made it into two men brawling over a damsel in distress.

Hi Ho Silver!

 

If this is supposed to be some type of dead horse joke, I thought that was for the episode thread. I didn't realize we weren't supposed to talk about it in character threads either.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kj4ever]

I'm not sure where I said Rick went in there saying he would kill Pete. What I said was that it's difficult for me to believe he feels stress as a leader at this point when I saw little to no interest or reaction in Noah dying or in being told that his actions could potentially kill Tara. 

 

If the story was presented this way - a cop trying to uphold the law in a lawless world - it would be more interesting to me. Unfortunately, the decision to write it as part of a love affair (and to have Rick tempted to go for his gun before he even knew about the abuse) mars that for me. The show made it into a love triangle.

 

If this is supposed to be some type of dead horse joke, I thought that was for the episode thread. I didn't realize we weren't supposed to talk about it in character threads either.

When people kept telling him Tara could die if he killed Pete, he didn't bat an eye, even though she's a member of his group.

 

Your words, dude.

[Pete Martell]

When people kept telling him Tara could die if he killed Pete, he didn't bat an eye, even though she's a member of his group.

 

Your words, dude.

 

And I'm still not sure what that has to do with your claim that I said he went in there to kill Pete. What I said was that he didn't care when told that if Pete died (or removed or whatever) Tara could die. That doesn't mean he wanted Pete to die, but it was a strong possibility that Pete would die. And if I'm supposed to believe he feels a burden as a leader, then a line like, "I don't want Tara to die, but I'm not going to let a husband beat on his wife either," would have gone a long way for me.

 

Is this the part where I say hi ho silver? 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kj4ever]

Hi Ho Silver!

[Pete Martell]

Thanks. I forgot to capitalize it. 

 

Hi Ho Silver! indeed.

 

Anyway, I think I'll wait to comment in the thread again until after the finale, or whenever after that. Hopefully by then this story will be something I can appreciate more, since up to this point I have almost always been involved in Rick's stories and understood him.

 

Up Up And Away, etc. etc. etc.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kikismom]

[kj4ever]

Awesome!!!

[TallulahBelle]

I love every second of this discussion and although I fall down on the side of totally getting Rick's brand of crazy and agreeing with kikismom, I see how every point Pete Martell is making fits in as well.  I think THAT's what I'm enjoying most about this season - how differently people view the motivations (similar to when Carol killed Karvid and I was all 'yep, good move Caz' and others wanted her to rot in hell).  I still think Rick was playing them from the get go based on what I saw the actor doing inbetween the lines but I think at this point, I agree he's lost his shit and is no longer in control of himself.

[BrokenRemote]

I think one of many reasons this story does not work for me is because most of the idea of him feeling the burden of a group has been erased since Alexandria. He is only acting that way in a broad sense of how he has to take care of people who are too stupid or sheltered to be able to take care of themselves. When Glenn talked to him about Noah his only reaction was essentially, "Yeah that's why we'll take over." When people kept telling him Tara could die if he killed Pete, he didn't bat an eye, even though she's a member of his group. When Jessie asked him if he would ever help anyone but her if they ever needed help, he reassured her that he wouldn't.

He has become a "leader" in the way that Shane was a "leader" - wanting to call the shots, but only caring about the actual welfare of a small handful of people (Jessie and her children).

I have to disagree that Rick is only concerned about Jessie and her kids. He planned with Darryl and Carol to get the guns, talked with them about having to take the place over if need be. That's not a man who's only thinking about getting some action and the woman he wants it from. That's a man that's thinking of his people and making plans to keep them safe if need be.

Even his crazy outburst is about how the town isn't safe because Deanna doesn't see the danger. Not that it isn't safe for Jessie and her kids, that it isn't safe for anyone. For his family.

Also, as far as Rick saying he'd only do this for Jessie--he paused an awfully long time before he said it. My take is that he paused because he was deciding what to say. He knows damned well he'd protect anyone. But he also wants to convey to her that there is something personal here.

He's telling her he'd only do it for her. That doesn't mean it's true, or even that he believes it. If he'd come right back with "yes", I'd think differently, but there was an obvious internal struggle there.

Edited March 26, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[kikismom]

[mandolin]

Holy crap. Hilarious and frightening at the same time.