S03.E06: Shade

[KirkB]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:03 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I just meant the most screwed over out of Barry`s inner circle, not the most screwed in general. Because I agree the people who died/were erased top this list.

Okay, sorry. That was me overreacting a bit. But the thing I find really weird is why Caitlin, and to a lesser extent Cisco, are automatically jumping on the powers evil bandwagon. Barry got powers and everybody thought it was cool. Cisco got powers and was freaked out until he realized nobody else was. Jesse got powers and the only one worried was her overprotective father. Why does Caitlin having powers mean she's going to be evil? Just because the Caitlin from the other Earth was? The other Cisco was evil and no one seems too concerned about him. Are they trying to give Danielle Panabaker something to do? Giving her powers is fine (I guess, seems to me the show is better with one main super) but why is she the only one of the main cast to get powers who everyone including the writers seems determined to make a monster?

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But that is what Salvitar (or whatever his name was) called himself.  "God of Speed"

So?  "God of Speed" is not the same as "Godspeed."  That's the point -- they're two entirely different characters.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But the thing I find really weird is why Caitlin, and to a lesser extent Cisco, are automatically jumping on the powers evil bandwagon. 

I have no idea. In the original timeline Cisco reacted the same way when he fretted out over Caitlin developing powers and "becoming" Killer Frost. They played it as semi-comedic back then but the heart of the matter was never adressed. They are even set on the name "Killer Frost". Why? That`s a name either she gave herself on Earth 2 or others there gave her. Just because Caitlin develops ice-based powers doesn`t mean they couldn`t give her a more friendly name.

I think they are too blinkered by Comic`s canon here and don`t take enough care in crafting a logical storyline within the narrative they have set up. There have been allusions to people with powers of the same variety from Earth 1 and Earth 2. We saw some doppelgangers, some evil, some not. But with Caitlin, it is the only time they all act as if she will literally turn into her Earth 2 self. I admit I don`t know too much about her comic origin story but within the Flash TV show narrative this attitude doesn`t make sense.

The only thing I can see is that Caitlin doesn`t seem to be herself - literally - when "Killer Frost" comes out. That makes it more of a Dark Phoenix storyline a la X-Men. And it wasn`t actually a problem of Earth 2 Killer Frost either as far as I remember. So I get Caitlin fretting over basically developing a dual personality with superpowers but everyone else?    

[Trini]

Late-released promo photo of Killer Frost:

Spoiler

 

Soooo.... When do we get one of (costumed) Vibe?

Edited November 20, 2016 by Trini

[KirkB]

I've got to admit, it IS a good look.

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

So?  "God of Speed" is not the same as "Godspeed."  That's the point -- they're two entirely different characters.

Which was my point, I only quoted the show, I never called him Godspeed but was called out for doing just that.  

[immortalfrieza]

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I have no idea. In the original timeline Cisco reacted the same way when he fretted out over Caitlin developing powers and "becoming" Killer Frost. They played it as semi-comedic back then but the heart of the matter was never adressed. They are even set on the name "Killer Frost". Why? That`s a name either she gave herself on Earth 2 or others there gave her. Just because Caitlin develops ice-based powers doesn`t mean they couldn`t give her a more friendly name.

I think they are too blinkered by Comic`s canon here and don`t take enough care in crafting a logical storyline within the narrative they have set up. There have been allusions to people with powers of the same variety from Earth 1 and Earth 2. We saw some doppelgangers, some evil, some not. But with Caitlin, it is the only time they all act as if she will literally turn into her Earth 2 self. I admit I don`t know too much about her comic origin story but within the Flash TV show narrative this attitude doesn`t make sense.

The only thing I can see is that Caitlin doesn`t seem to be herself - literally - when "Killer Frost" comes out. That makes it more of a Dark Phoenix storyline a la X-Men. And it wasn`t actually a problem of Earth 2 Killer Frost either as far as I remember. So I get Caitlin fretting over basically developing a dual personality with superpowers but everyone else?    

This kinda thing is common in fiction. Give someone powers and unless they're the hero or the sidekick (and even then, they'll probably do a "go evil then wangst about it once they go good again" plot) those powers are going to make them evil, even if originally the person was so saintly they made Jesus look like the Devil in comparison and that there is no reason why those powers can't be used for good. It's a lazy plot device designed to pull another villain for the hero to fight out of the writer's butts.

Edited November 21, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

It's okay, chemistry is subjective, it will always be different to different people.

This is why I think its counter productive for writers to listen to viewers when it comes to which couple they should develop in a show, because, even when some vocal fan base cry chemistry/no chemistry, they can never satisfy everyone. they should just write for the pair they like and want to pursue and try their best to do it justice, so that even people that don't like the pairing can at least understand them.

 

So true?. 

[KirkB]

I wonder, would everybody be freaking out like this Caitlin had developed fire powers? Or light powers? Or darkness powers? Is it just the fact she has ice powers and the only other Caitlin they know with ice powers is evil? I'm asking this seriously. I mean, I know it's a comic book show, and no one with the last name Snow could have anything BUT ice powers.

Edited November 21, 2016 by KirkB

[Actionmage]

Quote

I wonder, would everybody be freaking out like this Caitlin had developed fire powers?

Possibly. There might be more jokes about how "ironic" her powers were ( whatever they ended up being) when her name is Snow. Then again, we might have flashbacks from this Cisco describing the trip to E2 and meeting an evil Caitlin with the same powers.

The writing of "Caitlin must be Evil" falls into the lazy, simplistic, binary-thinking that seems to have set up shop in Central City. 'Omgwtfbbq! Caitlin has powers we saw a totally different sentient being have! Our Caitlin absolutely will automatically be Evil too!!!!!' Because Caitlin with powers isn't allowed to be Good, period? A gray-morality Caitlin would be more refreshing. It would reflect S1 Thawne-Wells and her relationship with him. It would keep potential tension  in future moral dilemmas and/ or have a trusted ally be able to call Barry out, yet have her motives be questioned as well. As someone else posted, why does Cisco feel so sure it's him and this Caitlin? He's seen more future visions and Earth-2, once. Why couldn't it be a hint of something waaay further in the future? Why doesn't Cisco question how he interprets these vibes? Why doesn't Joe, our skeptical murder police and sometime co-conspirator ( like when they went to the Allen house)? 

I flared with a brief anger over the overly simplistic Wells=Evil. I get angry not because barely anyone outside of the Star Labs folks know this, but because the Star Labs folks know this and continue to refer to Thawne as Wells to each other! Why? They- and we the viewers- know the truth. Why should they speak of Wells when they have dealt with his Thawne-faced Time remnant? It's just lazy bs, afaic.

WestAllen. *sigh*  Couples can sit close to each other, Show. PDAs don't have to be embarrassing. Pecks on cheeks and passed notes are okay as well.  Why not have Iris and Barry go bowling? The last time was a strained, not-quite double date. Why not have the group blow off some steam that way? Or have WA on a date there and have some goofy bet, like some couples do? (Like, if Iris wins, fresh Coast City grub for a week; if Barry wins, he picks the next four movies for Netflix and chill.)

I am not big on HR, but I think we aren't really to enjoy him as much as tolerate him. I may be incorrect about that, but it's how I deal with him so far. I have been enjoying Julian and enjoy that one trip to the bar hasn't made Julian an insta-pal. I think Julian and Oliver would get along, re: Barry.

I have my problems with various bits and pieces, but overall, I am still entertained. 

The mention of all the gorillas got me hoping for a trip there in the nearer future.

I still enjoy the show and I'm excited for the 4-parter coming up.

::hopes we keep Julian for another season::

[RedVitC]

On 11/16/2016 at 4:36 AM, RedVitC said:

Not sure how I feel about Caitlin's arc, because the evil part of it feels a little lazy. Are we supposed to assume that these powers are making her evil or that she has had this inside her all this time, because so far on the show we haven't seen powers affect someone's personality (have we? Am I forgetting something?). I thought the idea was always that you choose what to do with your powers. I even believe there was a line in S1 that when you get powers you become more of who you are. I think it was in that episode with Barry's bully. And the point was that Barry getting powers brought out that part of him that wanted to help more and the bully getting powers made him an even bigger bully. But I'd have to go back and check.

For anyone interested I went back to the episode (1.06) for the quote:

Quote

Barry: The thing that happened to you, Tony, happened to me too. But it didn't just give us abilities, it made us more of who we are. You got strong, I got fast. Fast enough to beat you. You used your gift to hurt people. Not anymore.

 

On 11/17/2016 at 4:16 AM, Sakura12 said:

They could've tweaked Iris' story and made her mother from the future and that's why she left. She did it to save Iris.

This could have been a really cool storyline! I remember there was definitely speculation that this is why her mother left, but alas. Maybe at some point in the series they might have Iris get stuck in the future for a bit as a nod to that comic storyline (as long as we'd actually get to see her trying to get back).

The 'There is no Flash without Iris West' was a nice nod to a similar line in 1.21 (Without you there wouldn't be The Flash).

[AudienceofOne]

The most annoying moment for me in this episode was when Caitlin said "you're not the one who's turning evil!" because it's such a case of weird predeterminism. You don't decry turning evil. You don't become evil. You either do evil things or you don't do evil things and you certainly don't sit around worried you're going to start doing evil things. You choose to do them or you don't.

Now, if she was driven by an instinct to suck the energy from other beings to survive and couldn't help it then I could understand it. She'd be facing a decision between her life and the life of others and that decision can genuinely go either way for most people. No matter how good you are, you never know how you're going to react to that. But we've not seen that there is a negative consequence of her using her powers. In fact, the one time she's chosen to use them she saved Flash's life. So the discussion should be about her learning to control them. Instead, we have this weird binary between having and not having powers as though they determine your status as GOOD or EVIL and it's so meaningless. POWERS = VILLIAN. Because bizarrely we have the exact same discussion with Wally except his status as a HERO is determined by the same variable - having powers. Except in his case we're supposed to that POWERS = HERO and, again, being a hero is not something you are, it's something you do. 

And this is one of the fundamental flaws of this show and of this genre. The hero is the hero because he's the hero. The things he does are heroic just because he does them. Once things are framed that way, you start to get this weirdly distorted morality that permeates everything. Which is why the Arrow will always (this season notwithstanding) be the superior show. Because that show has always has the guts to say that heroism is behaving heroically, whether you're the hero of the story or not.

[LisaM]

I cannot stand HR. Bring back Harry!

[GHScorpiosRule]

What a waste of utilizing Shade, who was so much cooler in Justice League. A huge yawnfest.

And talk about jealousy and self-centeredness; Wally just reminds me of that obnoxious kid in the Bugs Bunny short who kept whining about wanting Easter Eggs. Same thing here: "I wanna be a speedster! I wanna be a speedster! It's sooooo unfair that Jesse and Barry are speedsters, but not meeeee!" ????

Maybe he and James Jimmy from Supergirl should get together to whine about how they can't help people unless they have powers.??

Wally is my favorite Flash, but this show's iteration seems to be doing its damndest to ruin him for me. I wish he'd never been introduced.

[KirkB]

On 11/22/2016 at 9:39 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Now, if she was driven by an instinct to suck the energy from other beings to survive and couldn't help it then I could understand it. She'd be facing a decision between her life and the life of others and that decision can genuinely go either way for most people. No matter how good you are, you never know how you're going to react to that.

Yes, now that is a story element I could get behind. That would make a lot more sense than "I have powers now and must be evil!"

[Trini]

These writers, man. I know this show is centered around Barry/The Flash, but on re-watch, the scene with Barry and Caitlin after she's outed is kinda cringey. Barry goes to talk to/comfort? her; she confesses her fears/etc.; and then ... Barry makes it all about him and his mistakes. Which might have fine in a longer conversation, but he never actually says anything to reassure her at all. The main purpose seem like it was just to

Spoiler

give Caitlin that info about Dante, just so she could throw it back in Barry's face (in front of Cisco)

in the next episode.

[Airraz0r]

I was thinking about that vibe in the future episode, at the time I couldn't assume anything at that point because it could be many possibilities such as(take your pick):

1. A training session

2.One of them being brainwashed

3. A deja vu of dark Willow & Xander.

[fawadahmed087]

This Wally thing is really getting more frustrating......! This was actually good......!

[PatternRec]

On 11/16/2016 at 4:35 AM, themadman said:

FUCK THIS, I HAVE HAD IT TO UP TO MY EYEBALLS WITH EVIL SPEEDSTERS!

But it's Savitar, The Last Airbender...