S01.E08: Episode 8

[formerlyfreedom]

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Pius struggles with emotional fallout from Dussolier's death. Admist feminist protests, author Elmore Coen (Andre Gregory) visits Pius for a conversation about sex. Spencer offers Pius spiritual guidance for handling his increasing guilt. Hoping to find clarity in his Papacy, Pius follows Sophia's suggestion to visit an African mission where he discovers moral ambiguity. Meanwhile, Pius's relation with the public grows more contentious as reporters begin digging into his past.

Airing in the US on Monday, February 6, 2017.

[SGfan]

I have secretly liked the young Pope, Lenny, this whole time, even if I disagree with some of his views. I was raised Catholic, so I get where he's been coming from even if I disagree with some of his opinions. Having said that, after tonight's episode, I LOVE him! I said out loud to my husband when Lenny was praying in the parking lot and what was happening was actually happening, "No way!!!" Sorry, not sorry, but that was pretty awesome! I love this show and really hope it is picked up for a second season. Can't believe there are only 2 episodes left!! I've never really had an opinion about Jude Law one way or the other, but he is honestly doing a phenomenal job in this role. I am very impressed!

[rue721]

What happened to Esther and her family? Weird that they would just disappear like that.

It's worrying, too, given how much violence was in this episode. The kangaroo with its belly ripped open, the dead man on the street in Africa, the man who was beaten for trying to lick some water, and the memory of Dussollier's murder hanging over everything...

It's so like Lenny that he's mostly obsessing over why they decided to leave that huge and awkward picture of him holding their baby, which he had also named after himself.

The best I've ever liked him, though, was when he snuck into the journalists' side of the airplane while they were all sleeping. I guess because for once he was at least somewhat humble. Also, the nervous way he peered around the curtain was just so endearing.

In general, I find it endearing how withdrawn Lenny is. As far as I'm concerned, it's his most endearing trait. I feel ya, Lenny. When the nun was having the time of her life getting all those hugs and kisses and he turned his back and just wondered away to smoke a cigarette, that cracked me up.

Also, it's funny, but now that Lenny has started drawing on the love and happiness that he felt before he became an orphan, and letting those feelings guide him back to God, I suddenly can't watch his flashbacks to him and his parents without thinking that as lovely as that afternoon out by the creek seems, they must have abandoned him very soon after. Maybe even later that same day.

It seems sort of like Lenny's family is living in the Garden of Eden in those scenes, so I'm wondering what "knowledge" they might have gained that afternoon that got them thrown out of it (or at least got Lenny thrown out of it).

[Muffyn]

I loved how Lenny immediately saw through the nun.  All of her posing and calling the people to love her was for nothing when Lenny simply turned away and lit a cigarette.  He was in no way fooled by her show.  She was using a despotic military force to keep people from clean water.  I also loved how he found a way to give a beautiful speech without allowing the photo op with the dictator.  He would not sidle up to her "good man." 

His prayer in the parking lot was chilling.  At first I couldn't figure out what he was doing and I was afraid someone would attack him or run him over.  And then he cuts a deal with god to kill the nun after she drinks cold, clean water.  Lenny has powers and they are scary.  

[scrb]

In those flashbacks, he and his hippy parents are in their underwear.  His mother is topless?

He smelled his mother so he 'sniffs out' the impostors.

Okay, in the '60s or '70s, maybe the hippy parents didn't respect boundaries?  Maybe abandoning him wasn't the only wrong they did to him?  Or maybe abandoning him followed on something even worse?

[jwc]

I am still not sure if it is legal exactly to put your kid up for adoption when they are 9.  I think the rule is you are stuck with them after they are 1 year old.

Lenny confessed to an African priest who doesn't speak English.  The not he passed told all about the Nun's transgressions.  So he calls in the wrath of God to punish (kill?) her.  Then, someone (at the Vatican) whacks the Kangaroo.  Are the two things related?  Or Voiello sending a message?

[Pallas]

No, Lenny saw the murdered 'Roo before he departed for Africa. A message sent (by pouch). I don't believe from Voiello, though, or anyone acting on orders from him. Voiello does indeed have a certain class.   

I realize that with the 'Roo, we have another case of what Chandler Bing said of Bambi's mother: "Yes, it was so sad when the man stopped drawing the deer! " Even so. I'd like to believe that the killing was a fantasy: the 'Roo stabbed in the gut, as Andrew was, and lying slain, alone, as Lenny imagined Andrew had been.  

[pasdetrois]

Catching up on episodes. I'm more drawn in with each one and perceive some kind of linear story emerging.

Love the opening sequence. If anyone is curious about the paintings, there's this: http://www.dailyartdaily.com/young-pope-paintings-opening-explained/

All of the imagery is fantastic. And I appreciate the dialogue too.

Whose photo was Sister Mary clutching when she was sobbing prostrate on her bed? Was it Andrew?

One quibble: all the topless women - gratuitous to the storytelling. I demand nudity equality if we're gonna have nekkidness and wanton sex.

Does this pope ever work? He seem to do nothing but stroll languidly about the place, like a jaded rich playboy.

Edited February 8, 2017 by pasdetrois

[humbleopinion]

The picture Sister Mary was holding was of the three of them long ago when they were boys and she a young nun.

[Mumbles]

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Having said that, after tonight's episode, I LOVE him! I said out loud to my husband when Lenny was praying in the parking lot and what was happening was actually happening, "No way!!!" Sorry, not sorry, but that was pretty awesome!

Agreed. I recommend Christopher Hitchens' "Missionary Position" for a brutal takedown of Mother Theresa, who reminded me a lot of Sister Antonia for her coddling of dictators and her treatment of the people she purported to be helping as naughty children.

I found Spencer's conversation with Lenny to be touching. Spencer probably knows about Lenny's crisis of faith from Sister Mary, but regardless, the stuff about "I was once fifty too" was cute, and I do wonder if many priests in middle age do encounter their own crises of faith. It would make perfect sense.

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In general, I find it endearing how withdrawn Lenny is. As far as I'm concerned, it's his most endearing trait. I feel ya, Lenny.

Me too! Sure, it's likely the product of being separated from his parents and not getting a lot of physical affection in the orphanage, but in this day where people are expected to hug  (at least in the US) after barely knowing each other, I feel ya Lenny too - although as noted above, it was probably because he knew Sister Antonia was full of shit (but he tends to be like that all the time.)

Interesting how Lenny's observation that not letting yourself be seen = power seems to have not held up, given the small audience in Saint Peter's Square.

[A Boston Gal]

 I want to believe Lenny is an antihero  of sorts, but I just see him as being manipulative and selfish, defining the greater good as what benefits his own psychological motivations.    For instance, he could have called out sister Antonia in public, rather than  praying for her demise, which leaves her without a public admission of guilt or public punishment. 

 I mean, yeah, she's dead and all, but on the Pope's terms, not what would be best for her slaves/captives or the Idi Amin-wannabe running the country.   That is not justice. That's just wish fulfilment. 

 I wonder if next season will focus on Lenny's involvement with the New York pedophilia case. There's a lot of unspoken guilt  going on with this guy. 

 And one last thing: I adore the costumes. Lenny's white robes are impeccably tailored, not unlike a high-level, extremely well paid American business executive.  There is not one wrinkle that shows up between his well-defined shoulder seams. His collar fits perfectly,  and he never has a hair out of place.  Lenny the Pope deserves a place on the cover of GQ,   Which of course adds to the whole mystique.

[Kbilly]

I never quite know what the hell is going on with this show.

So no one was coming to his public sermons (sorry don't know if that's what they are really called) at the Vatican and Esther had taken off--things had gotten that horrible?

His having a crisis of faith makes sense to me but I wish I'd known that from the beginning--instead I was lead into the show thinking he was just a prick who didn't truly believe in God. I think what makes me so confused is that the character is seriously all over the place. The guy who demanded Cherry Coke Zero was not the guy preaching in Africa.

I LOVED the part on the plane when he walked through all the journalists sleeping and the one who told him his speech was beautiful. It so was. "We are all guilty of war and death, always. In the same way, we can all be guilty of peace. Always."

Was Voiello gonna kiss Mary? !

[WaltersHair]

 

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Love the opening sequence. If anyone is curious about the paintings, there's this: http://www.dailyartdaily.com/young-pope-paintings-opening-explained/

Interesting that the European opening is not as animated as the American one. No halos falling from saint's head.

I'm a bit conflicted on the praying for a nun's death as part of a Pope's duties. Seems far too Old Testament.

[Mumbles]

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Esther had taken off

I bet Vioello or Mary were behind this. They saw how attached he is to that baby - they watched him walking the baby in the pram - and they're trying to mentally mess him up so they can control him (like with the fake parents in the last episode.)

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The guy who demanded Cherry Coke Zero was not the guy preaching in Africa.

Agreed, and that's why this is such a fascinating show. He alternates between being a bastard and, well, not a bastard. I do now wonder if he's taken a turn after the death of his foster brother.  His conversation with Spencer was heartfelt and unguarded.

[FemmyV]

On 2/7/2017 at 8:36 PM, pasdetrois said:

Love the opening sequence. If anyone is curious about the paintings, there's this: http://www.dailyartdaily.com/young-pope-paintings-opening-explained/

Thank you for this. When all is said and done, if nothing else I will be grateful to this show and HBO for promoting art to to the masses, costumes and interiors included, and for giving us a show that leaves us with questions.

I spent the week trying to absorb the episode enough to say something coherent, and am still unsure but here goes.

Bookends: the prayer for Andrew versus the prayer for Sister Antonia. At show's opening Lenny's prayer for his very flawed friend and colleague in the Church was a thing of beauty for its humility and genuine love, and for its eye-candy setting in the pool (and, symbolically in the deep end of the pool with only his God as a witness). Taken against the rain, gas station tarmac in front of everyone for the Nun, and we don't really know what Lenny said. Did Lenny ask God to strike her down, or did he merely ask for her to be cast out and for her soul to be given the opposite treatment of Andrew's?  Ie, is Lenny going to take on responsibility for both Andrew's and Antonia's deaths?

And what of this business of him not believing in God? Either he doesn't believe in an external god because he believes he IS god, and is freaking out, or he's just letting word of that go around in order to mess with people and retain control with the likes of Voiello. But if he doesn't believe, then what was he doing in the swimming pool, and on the tarmac, in the first place?

Speaking of Voiello ... dude, hitting on Sister Mary. ...

About the flashbacks to his parents .. are they really flashbacks, or just imagination. After 40 years, you'd think he'd be long done idealizing  the people who let go of him.

Finally, that conversation with his favorite author. It seemed like its own little island and had no business at all being in the episode, so I'm guessing there will be significance later.

Edited February 15, 2017 by FemmyV

[Mumbles]

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Did Lenny ask God to strike her down, or did he merely ask for her to be cast out and for her soul to be given the opposite treatment of Andrew's?  Ie, is Lenny going to take on responsibility for both Andrew's and Antonia's deaths?

Interesting question. IMO Andrew was a flawed person but succumbing to very human desires and lacking the courage to stand up to narcos (especially ones married to your ladyfriend) is far more forgiveable than the sanctimonious cruelty of a Sister Antonia.

[ganesh]

On 2/9/2017 at 11:03 AM, A Boston Gal said:

I want to believe Lenny is an antihero  of sorts, but I just see him as being manipulative and selfish, defining the greater good as what benefits his own psychological motivations.  

Yes. Or psychosis. I feel like the show had some good ideas but they've just kind of smattered them here and there and didn't put together a directed narrative. I would have preferred they explored the Lenny as saint more directly. On the other hand, while I like the concept of the a pope being reclusive (absence is presence), they should have done that on the show, and made his appearances sporadic. They talk sporadically about public opinion, etc., I think they should have featured the PR woman more if they wanted to go in that direction. 

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His having a crisis of faith makes sense to me but I wish I'd known that from the beginning--instead I was lead into the show thinking he was just a prick who didn't truly believe in God. 

Or if they made the show about that. I feel like there's not really any fully formed concepts here. 

On 2/7/2017 at 7:36 PM, pasdetrois said:

Catching up on episodes. I'm more drawn in with each one and perceive some kind of linear story emerging.

The thing is though, should it take 8 episodes to reach that point?

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I really liked this episode. The whole series kind of took a turn here (to me). All of a sudden I'm seeing this series not so much about political intrigue at the Vatican but a character study that really tries to answer questions about what it means to be a "good person" - are good people 100% good? Impossible? Can even "bad people" also be good people to some? Are saints (as Sr. Mary calls Lenny) always 100% good? Do they always believe in God? Saints are still people - they are saints, not angels and like all humans, are complicated and good and bad. I know I'm not articulating it properly, so I hope what I'm trying to say makes some sense. 

[WatchrTina]

On 2/11/2017 at 0:03 PM, Mumbles said:

 

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Esther had taken off

I bet Vioello or Mary were behind this.

I don't.  I think Esther and her husband decided that Lenny was just a bit too much and bid a hastily retreat, leaving the photo of Lenny holding their son behind, which is -- let's face it --- a total slap in the face to Lenny.  Then again, Lenny doesn't seem like the kind of guy who responds to subtlety.  I think they left the photo to send a clear message.

Edited February 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[NutMeg]

12 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I really liked this episode. The whole series kind of took a turn here (to me). All of a sudden I'm seeing this series not so much about political intrigue at the Vatican but a character study that really tries to answer questions about what it means to be a "good person" - are good people 100% good? Impossible? Can even "bad people" also be good people to some? Are saints (as Sr. Mary calls Lenny) always 100% good? Do they always believe in God? Saints are still people - they are saints, not angels and like all humans, are complicated and good and bad. I know I'm not articulating it properly, so I hope what I'm trying to say makes some sense. 

I really like your post, and your puzzlement about how to articulate what you feel reflects mine. For me it brings to lights that saints are no saints, if that makes any sense, they are not perfect people, they are no gods, they are humans with a very, very strong impact on people around them, that they sometimes are not even aware of. I'd continue, but I don't feel I can convey my feelings very well. I'm not terribly religious, so I'm not sure about the words that apply, maybe they have the grace?

[FemmyV]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:33 AM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I really liked this episode. The whole series kind of took a turn here (to me). All of a sudden I'm seeing this series not so much about political intrigue at the Vatican but a character study that really tries to answer questions about what it means to be a "good person" - are good people 100% good?

I agree it took a huge turn here, and I think a huge part of it had to do with coping with Andrew's death. So much has been made of Lenny's abandonment; when you're an orphan, or otherwise lose a parent at a young age, unless there's a good reason not to you idealize that missing parent. Any child of divorce can tell you all about that. Losing Andrew was the first time in his life, probably, that forced Lenny to stop pining over the parents he didn't have long enough mourn the loss in the family he DID have. Doubly so when Spencer died, further along.

[Valmarmar]

Teared up during the speech in Africa.  Staged and filmed so perfectly.  Loved this episode.