S05.E04: Penance

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Oliver and Lyla team up on a secret mission for Diggle, but Felicity disapproves of the plan and opts to stay behind. When Tobias Church launches a deadly assault against the city, Felicity must decide whether to send the recruits without Green Arrow.

[janeta]

"Go! Don't die."  Hee!

[dtissagirl]

WHAT'S IN THE BOX.

[apinknightmare]

I thought the ep was boring, but also liked it? 

I liked the Felicity and Rory stuff a lot - I love the way they handled it. Still hoping there's more for her with Havenrock, but...not holding my breath. Also kind of LOLing at all the discussion about an anti-Felicity POV and there wasn't one? 

[Sunshine]

I guess the anti-Felicity POV was expressed when Ragman went after the missile manufacturer in 5.02.

I loved the Felicity and Rory scenes.  In fact I found the Felicity and newbies scenes much more exciting than the Oliver breaks Dig out of prison. Yeah for Quentin driving the get-a-way van!

[ladylaw99]

I thought the ep was boring but I love felicity and rory.  also love diggle and lyla.

[apinknightmare]

I usually find Diggle's storylines to be kind of boring, and this was no exception. I did like Felicity and the newbies a lot - Ragman continues to be my fave of the boobs. 

[Hiveminder]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I thought the ep was boring, but also liked it? 

I kind of feel the same way. It's weird. 

I still like the flashbacks, Rory, and Thea and Lance's relationship. I thought it was funny that Thea's using gout as an excuse for Oliver's lateness. She's definitely his little sister. 

[Jediknight]

Diggle's out of jail!  I loved that Oliver told him "You're my brother."  Yeah Diggle, you killed Andy, but he was your brother in blood only, he lost every right to call you his brother.

I really like the Russia flashbacks.

[Hiveminder]

I wasn't really paying attention to the jail break. Did they ever show Oliver doing something with that guard's ball, or did he just take it to be a jerk?

[Morrigan2575]

Missed parts of the episode stupid family wanting to keep in touch.

Anyway, I liked the Felicity/Rory stuff and I liked her leading Team Arrow 2.0. Didn't like that Rene got captured but, the writers must love Wild Dog because he is getting ALL of the boobs story telling. 

I thought Lyla was a bit of a bitch at the beginning. I get wanting her husband back but this was just stupid. Let's break him out and keep him in hiding for the rest of the season...because we want Diggle back now but, want to play around with this treason story.  Like here's an idea, Lyla you're the head if ARGUS and phone buddies with the President. Maybe have Diggle assigned to the Suicide Squad?

I'm really digging Church, they did a good job with Coleman. 

I don't like Chase and it seems weird but, I'm getting a Thea/Chase vibe.

Speaking of Thea, they really can't think of anything else to do but make her someone's daughter?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm really digging Church, they did a good job with Coleman. 

Tonight is the first time I actually found him menacing. 

And am I wrong, or is this the third or fourth time someone has mentioned the best, most trustworthy cops in the city and Mayo is nowhere to be found? Or did he just blend into the backgroud to the point where I missed him tonight?

[Sunshine]

Detective wasn't in the episode tonight.  

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Tonight is the first time I actually found him menacing. 

And am I wrong, or is this the third or fourth time someone has mentioned the best, most trustworthy cops in the city and Mayo is nowhere to be found? Or did he just blend into the backgroud to the point where I missed him tonight?

I wasn't thrilled with Church at first but, I've felt he's gotten better and more entertaining each appearance. I do agree that this was the first time I felt he was menacing

[Chaser]

I'm watching it now. 

Lyla just dismissing Felicity like that? No thank you. 

Oliver and Felicitys argument about breaking Diggle out felt weird to me. I agreed with Felicity's points but her agreement felt all over the place. Are we against it so Diggle wouldn't be on the run or because it's not what Diggle wants? Are we emphasizing with Diggle position because we understand that feeling? Kind of poorly written.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Chaser

[GirlvsTV]

First time I've tried to watch an episode this season and I couldn't make it past Oliver and Lyla being rude af to Felicity and then Oliver, once again, deciding to make decisions for other people. So, almost 15 mins.

[Sunshine]

13 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I wasn't really paying attention to the jail break. Did they ever show Oliver doing something with that guard's ball, or did he just take it to be a jerk?

I didn't see him do anything with it.  Guessing the show just thought it was funny.

1 minute ago, GirlvsTV said:

First time I've tried to watch an episode this season and I couldn't make it past Oliver and Lyla being rude af to Felicity and then Oliver, once again, deciding to make decisions for other people. So, almost 15 mins.

To me, Oliver, Lyla & Diggle were the least interesting part of the episode.  Glad Diggle is reuniting with the team though.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Oliver and Felicitys argument about breaking Diggle out felt weird to me. I agreed with Felicity's points but her agreement felt all over the place. Are we against it so Diggle wouldn't be on the run or because it's not what Diggle wants? Are we emphasizing with Diggle position because we understand that feeling? Kind of poorly written.

Yeah, the reasoning is a mess because Diggle being in jail and wanting to stay there is also a mess. I thought her approach would be more about figuring out a way to clear his name, but (unless I missed it) that was never brought up as an option? Arrow at its worst, haha.

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, the reasoning is a mess because Diggle being in jail and wanting to stay there is also a mess. I thought her approach would be more about figuring out a way to clear his name, but (unless I missed it) that was never brought up as an option? Arrow at its worst, haha.

That's because they just wrote the whole episode/argument just to get to the end point of having Diggle back.

[benteen]

I really enjoyed this one.  I think the show has been on the role.

Appreciated Ragman's valid reason for not wanting to be on the team.  He didn't blame Felicity but found it difficult to be near her because she was a reminder.  The Rory and Felicity scenes were good and Ragman is easily one of the best additions this season.

Not-so-valid stuff...Felicity not wanting to bust Diggle out of jail.  Don't get me wrong...being a fugitive isn't going to help John, I agree with that.  But I thought Felicity would remind Oliver that clearing John of the crime he's accused of would be a much more effective way.  But instead, Felicity is fine with John going to jail for a crime he didn't commit?  Seriously?

Coleman has been doing a great job with the Church character.

Enjoyed the stuff with Lance.

The DA looks like a Franco brother.

[mommalib]

What is with the pro Felicity and anti Oliver stuff around here. As if Oliver is always wrong and she's always right.

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's because they just wrote the whole episode/argument just to get to the end point of having Diggle back.

And they needed Felicity not on the Diggle mission so she could talk to Rory and single-mother the boobs. Which was easily achieved with a completely nonsensical argument YAY who needs characterization, or, I dunno, Earth Logic.

[Hiveminder]

7 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

 

7 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

First time I've tried to watch an episode this season and I couldn't make it past Oliver and Lyla being rude af to Felicity and then Oliver, once again, deciding to make decisions for other people. So, almost 15 mins.

They're attitudes toward Felicity and Felicity's reasons for not helping break Dig out both seemed contrived for plot purposes. 

[BkWurm1]

30 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Tonight is the first time I actually found him menacing. 

And am I wrong, or is this the third or fourth time someone has mentioned the best, most trustworthy cops in the city and Mayo is nowhere to be found? Or did he just blend into the backgroud to the point where I missed him tonight?

Didn't the DA say they were the ONLY trustworthy cops left in the city?  Mayo's absence is very glaring.  I like it!

19 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I'm watching it now. 

Lyla just dismissing Felicity like that? No thank you. 

Oliver and Felicitys argument about breaking Diggle out felt weird to me. I agreed with Felicity's points but her agreement felt all over the place. Are we against it so Diggle wouldn't be on the run or because it's not what Diggle wants? Are we emphasizing with Diggle position because we understand that feeling? Kind of poorly written.

Lyla can be absolutely mission oriented to the point of coldness so I won't hold it against her.  She was focused on the task and she didn't dismiss Felicity since she was actually worried the Felicity could be a problem.  So I'll take that as respect.  

Yeah the argument felt incomplete.  I kept on expecting her to explain the RIGHT way to free Dig, you know, prove his innocence?  But maybe they were trying to make her come off as agreeing with Diggle, that if he felt he needed to pay for what he did to Andy, she supported him because she too was bogged down in guilt over what she'd done?  

Actually, that totally fits since she and Dig were the ones in the episode (and Rory) finding ways to put their guilt in the past and move forward. 

Parallels! 

Edited October 27, 2016 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

But I thought Felicity would remind Oliver that clearing John of the crime he's accused of would be a much more effective way.  But instead, Felicity is fine with John going to jail for a crime he didn't commit?  Seriously?

Yeah, it makes no sense - that should've been the first thing someone like her thought of? But, like @Morrigan2575 wrote, there probably wasn't much thought put into it, because they just wanted to get to the endgame of getting Diggle back (and stage a prison break caper). 

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, dtissagirl said:

And they needed Felicity not on the Diggle mission so she could talk to Rory and single-mother the boobs. Which was easily achieved with a completely nonsensical argument YAY who needs characterization, or, I dunno, Earth Logic.

Pretty much. This show will always put plot over character

[dtissagirl]

I did like the bit when Dig knew Felicity would hate the prison break plan. I just need them to HAVE SCENES TOGETHER ALREADY.

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, mommalib said:

What is with the pro Felicity and anti Oliver stuff around here. As if Oliver is always wrong and she's always right.

I would say that Oliver does a lot of stuff right and I'm not ignoring that, but usually if Felicity thinks it's a bad idea, she has been right.

I was not a fan of her sending the boobs to stop Oliver, though I also doubt she told them to try and fight him.  Oliver didn't actually attack any of them.  They attacked him.   

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

I did like the bit when Dig knew Felicity would hate the prison break plan. I just need them to HAVE SCENES TOGETHER ALREADY.

Maybe she'll bring him some Big Belly Burger, since that's what people in the Flarrowverse bring their prisoners. Knowing this show, it'll all happen offscreen, of course!

[Sunshine]

I like the fact that the baby vigilantes realized Oliver was taking it easy on them in training!

I also like the fact that Oliver doesn't give up/quit even when it was Lyla telling him to abort the mission.  

I'm guessing Rene's dishonorable discharge has something to do with insubordination.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Sunshine

[EmeraldArcher]

I liked the DA in this episode, but read "like" as "eh, he had swagger and seems like a decent actor." He and Rory are the only tolerable new characters.  

Curtis just grates on me now, as he's saying lines that belong to other people and doing things handled by more beloved characters. If he didn't have a terrific comic destiny, he wouldn't be worth their time.

I still don't know where Olicity is heading because what's a fangirl supposed to do with that long, lingering look toward the end? If they want to write away from Olicity, then shouldn't the directors be clued in to avoid giving weight to their stares? Shouldn't they make them repeat takes until they scrub out the chemistry?

[Chaser]

I liked that Felicity and the Boobs voted before going out there. 

I wondered if Felicity was okay with Diggle being okay with going to prison for a crime he didn't do was a reflection of her own guilt. Like she got it because of Havenrock. It doesn't sound like they go there tho.

[Sunshine]

Felicity's motto also is "My Life, My Choice." I wonder if Diggle's arc is about both redemption and trying to prove his innocence.

I liked the Felicity and Oliver phone call about the break-in at Palmer Tech.  I also liked Felicity figuring out Oliver was the culprit.  Can't hide much when your phone's GPS is on.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Sunshine

[BkWurm1]

41 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

 

I thought the ep was boring, but also liked it? 

 

Oliver's break in was dull.  Usually I love the break ins but It was just Oliver running around and we all knew he wasn't going to get caught, not really.  And the scenes were just bland to look at.  Those awful yellow walls looked so fake.  Not a fan of Oliver without his team.  I've never enjoyed him alone so I shouldn't be surprised.  

One last complaint, are we supped to think that Oliver just grabbed a rope and hoisted himself and Diggle up to the plane as it flew by??  

 

Just now, EmeraldArcher said:

I still don't know where Olicity is heading because what's a fangirl supposed to do with that long, lingering look toward the end? If they want to write away from Olicity, then shouldn't the directors be clued in to avoid giving weight to their stares? Shouldn't they make them repeat takes until they scrub out the chemistry?

This so much.  They didn't get a lot of screen time together but their scenes underscored an intimacy between them.  And that last look, yowsa.    

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I wonder if Diggle's arc is about both redemption and trying to prove his innocence.

I certainly hope so. Because this I-killed-my-brother-so-I-deserve-to-be-in-prison-for-treason is some dumb shit. I don't care how deep in the grief someone is - that is some low-level, not even Oliver is that dumb kind of stuff. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I liked that Felicity and the Boobs voted before going out there. 

I wondered if Felicity was okay with Diggle being okay with going to prison for a crime he didn't do was a reflection of her own guilt. Like she got it because of Havenrock. It doesn't sound like they go there tho.

No I think that's exactly where the show went.  But now it's all done and Diggle and Felicity are "fixed" but will try to pay it forward to make up for what they'd done. 

[dtissagirl]

8 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I still don't know where Olicity is heading because what's a fangirl supposed to do with that long, lingering look toward the end? If they want to write away from Olicity, then shouldn't the directors be clued in to avoid giving weight to their stares? Shouldn't they make them repeat takes until they scrub out the chemistry?

I think we traded Involuntary Constipated Face + Involuntary NOTP Face for a brand new disease called Involuntary Heart Eyes Face.

[BkWurm1]

Just now, dtissagirl said:

I think we traded Involuntary Constipated Face + Involuntary NOTP Face for a brand new disease called Involuntary Heart Eyes Face.

We can keep debating on if it's voluntary or not, but I think we agree that there is no cure.  

And that is as it should be.   ;)

[Mellowyellow]

What is NOPT?

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think we traded Involuntary Constipated Face + Involuntary NOTP Face for a brand new disease called Involuntary Heart Eyes Face.

Very Very Serious disease. Should be studied closely.

[Lantern7]

"Glad you're back, John. Now . . . can somebody explain why our daughter is now a boy?"

I like when the show goes nuts. Diggle and Oliver are surrounded? No problem . . . Lyla pulls them out with a tether. Why the heck not?!? Good to have Diggle halfway back.

Not really liking Wild Dog that much. I don't think a torture montage is going to change that. And Curtis' hair getting calmed down seems wrong. At least New Girl got a codename. "Artemis" ties into the mythos well.

[bethy]

I really liked the scene between Rory and Oliver when Rory quit the team, and I liked the scene between Rory and Felicity when she went to talk to him. I just really like this Rory kid. Though I know the actor is not a kid. 

I feel like EBR is using a different voice this season? Deeper maybe? More mature, for lack of a better word? I kind of like the implications of that.

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

They're attitudes toward Felicity and Felicity's reasons for not helping break Dig out both seemed contrived for plot purposes. 

A consistent problem on the show since the beginning.  They change their characters personalities to fit the plot of the week (like Roy joining the Malcolm Meryln fanclub in Season 3) instead of writing their stories to fit their characters personalities.

[Chaser]

Rory is easily my favorite. His squeaky voice makes me laugh. He can stay.

Now that the episode is over I can say it's not as bad as Twitter was saying but I didn't find it particularly good. 

Too many logic fails and it was messy. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

A consistent problem on the show since the beginning.  They change their characters personalities to fit the plot of the week (like Roy joining the Malcolm Meryln fanclub in Season 3) instead of writing their stories to fit their characters personalities.

Yep, plot over character. If you're like me, you either have to accept it or quit. Otherwise every episode will drive you to varying degrees of crazy.

[dtissagirl]

I'm also getting a kick out of the fact that they're going SUPER ANVIL TIMES with tying whatever's happening in the flashbacks with present time. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, it's just making very very sure that something -- anything at all -- in Russia makes us go "oooh, paralell". Ringing a bell, getting into a prison, it doesn't matter. But look it, after two seasons of disconnected flashbacks, now we're TIED, YO.

[KirkB]

That little trick with Ragman and the bomb makes me wonder why Oliver even needs the rest of the Geek Squad. It seems to me the two of them could do most of the city protecting by themselves.

[Sunshine]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

That little trick with Ragman and the bomb makes me wonder why Oliver even needs the rest of the Geek Squad. It seems to me the two of them could do most of the city protecting by themselves.

Yeah, but DC wants to sell merchandise. :-)

[Lady Calypso]

You know, I appreciate that Wild Dog is getting a slow character progression and we'll see him most likely develop into a better fighter, listener, and teammate, but damn if he doesn't irritate the hell out of me now. He's just so dumb, reckless, and an awful teammate. I was totally Evelyn in most of her scenes when she snarked at Wild Dog. 

Meanwhile, Ragman/Rory is easily the best new character I've seen on this show in awhile. His scenes with Felicity, especially the first one, were the best part of the episode. Rory's almost like a mini Oliver in terms of how he got started as a vigilante. Dad died, so son is honouring dad in the best way that he can. Plus, even with his magic rags, it's somehow interesting and fun for me to watch. Plus, again, he's the right balance of funny and dark.  

The problem with Diggle's story is that I believe that he has nothing to feel guilty about, much like I kind of feel the same for Felicity's guilt. However, the difference is that Felicity can find a mature way to handle it. Diggle thinks putting himself in prison for life is going to change things. It's my belief that Diggle's choosing the wrong choices left and right that make me bored and uninterested in his story.

The flashbacks may be boring, but they're still more watchable than last season's. Maybe the no love interest and no magic aspects help.

I still believe that Curtis should be behind the scenes with Felicity and not out on the streets. Just stick to a few on the field, show. But that's mostly because I can't stand Curtis' costume as Mister Terrific, and he's also irritating me too when he's not with Felicity. Also, I hope that this training does lead to just that, and not them all joining as full fledged members of Team Arrow. I'd be ok for them to take their training and then fly solo. Except for Rory. I'd very much like him to join the team, but I get the feeling that he'll be the only one to part ways by season's end while we get stuck with the Young and the Reckless (Artemis and Wild Dog). 

[ladylaw99]

Four ep in and I am not feeling wild dog.  can he stop calling Felicity Blondie