S02.E05: Weaponizer

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

I'm pretty sure he said "Give mom my..." then died before he could say love. 

 

I agree with the poster who said that they are pretty sure that Lucifer understood what he said, so what reason would he have to deny it in that case? It sounds pretty harmless.

[wayne67]

Maybe he told Lucifer to give Mom his borrowed sword so she can just kill dad... 

If it would work on mom it should work on dad. 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Boy, did this ep not work for me.

The major plot point was Luci's conceit that nobody could know what Dad wanted.  What rot.  Maze (she rocks) knew.  He wanted Mum returned to Him, or He wanted her back in her prison in Hell.  There is no ambiguity about it.  None.  

Uriel had no known reason to spare either Mum, or Chloe.  He punishes Luci with Chloe's death, and he still has the same chance of grabbing Mum to deliver her wherever.  He had his full powers, none of the others did, excepting possibly Maze.  To that point, I did very much appreciate that Uri could toy with her as a lesser being.  That she went all-in fierce was another congruent and good choice.  I am glad she survived, but that one, brief, realistic moment was most welcome.

Given the simple set-ups which put into motion great catastrophe, I was thinking maybe Dean Winters (Allstate commercials "Mayhem" guy) would have been a great casting call for Uri.

Loved Luci's revulsion of Trixie.  The least is the strongest! 

Hated the chumminess with Det. Douche.  Really hated.

 Oh well, the writers will make up whatever to give Tom big scenes.  This has always been the show, and always will be.  There are far worse things on TV.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Lonesome Rhodes

[CheshireCat]

29 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Boy, did this ep not work for me.

The major plot point was Luci's conceit that nobody could know what Dad wanted.  What rot.  Maze (she rocks) knew.  He wanted Mum returned to Him, or He wanted her back in her prison in Hell.  There is no ambiguity about it.  None.  

 

And just how do you know that? Everyone, including Maze, just assumed that this is what Dad wanted but, as Lucifer said, there was no actual proof. It's a logical conclusion everyone would jump to - a prisoner has escaped, a guard gets shown the empty cell/open door, guard thinks prisoner has to be brought back. Maze doesn't know any more than Lucifer does, as a matter of fact, she probably knows less because she hasn't seen the empty cell. And she has a score to settle with Mom, so I'd consider her a little biased.

But unless someone, no matter who, actually tells someone what they want, no one can know for sure unless they can read minds and so far, it's been established that that's not one of Lucifer and Co's powers.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

O Brother, Where Art Thy Wings?, Lucifer Asks

This is the week we get introduced to a third heavenly sibling, Uriel, and Lucifer tries to get his big brother Amenadiel to fix his problems for him. Unfortunately, he just ends up creating more trouble for himself.

[CheshireCat]

I just had a thought - if Mom is to be believed, she's the one who had Lucifer sent to Hell in order to keep him alive because Dad had other plans. That begs the question why, when Uriel was acting on his own and not doing Dad's bidding, he was getting away with it. So, either it means Mon is lying or, the other thought that I had, maybe Uriel didn't get away with it? Could Dad have used Lucifer to do his dirty work?

[Anakerie]

I love this show more and more each week. Yeah, I'm shallow:  I first started watching because Lucifer is hot (no pun intended). I never expected to find myself lusting over the devil, but there I was. In truth when I found it it was yet another procedural show I just sighed because I'm pretty sick of them. But I've been sucked into Hell and I have no intentions of trying to escape:  the storytelling, the characters, everything just comes together. I guess I pictured the "kids" to have been formed up in Heaven fully grown. But this week has me thinking about Luci and Amen as children and Uriel trying to get them to play with/notice him. And Amen as the "first born" trying so had to be the good one and set an example for his siblings.  Things I never really thought about before. Also loved Uriel's little Rube Goldberg methods of setting off event chains. But now the show has me wondering what Charlotte's kids think of Jesus, Dad's son by another woman.  : )

[gwhh]

Does anyone think its a bit odd that several archangels, the head demon of hell, and the lord of the underworld.  Are all concerned about if one human female lives or dies??

 

Does anyone else thinks that odd??

Edited October 27, 2016 by gwhh

[CheshireCat]

3 hours ago, gwhh said:

Does anyone think its a bit odd that several archangels, the head demon of hell, and the lord of the underworld.  Are all concerned about if one human female lives or dies??

 

Does anyone else thinks that odd??

I understood that they only care because Lucifer made a deal - Lucifer cares because he cares about Chloe and he doesn't want to choose between Chloe and Mom. Maze cares because Lucifer cares about Chloe and because, I think, she's starting to like Chloe. She definitely likes Trixie and in some way she still seems to help Lucifer, that why she tried to convince Mom to go back to Hell. I don't think Amenadiel really cares, he just pointed out to Lucifer that he hasn't thought about the consequences and I'd say Uriel cared for selfish reasons. He saw an opportunity to suck up to Dad and/or get rid of Mom in the process, at least, that was my Interpretation of it.

[wilnil]

I think free will is going to be a central issue here on several fronts:

• God doesn't directly intervene much in earthly affairs because it would interfere with the free will that humanity was given.
• The angels probably aren't supposed to need to hear his voice directly because they were created to be expressions of God's Will -- it's when they try to use free will themselves instead of doing what they feel they should do that (just like humans) they feel a lack of divine guidance.
• But I don't think exercising free will alone is what's "mortal-izing" Lucifer and Amenadiel, since Luci had been hanging around L.A. for years and only got into trouble after he started to get involved in people's fates (specifically Chloe's), and Amenadiel only after he got called out on his manipulations by Dr. Linda (again, mucking with human lives). As if they're being told "OK, you want to diddle with My creation, now you get to be fully a part of it."

[Lonesome Rhodes]

23 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

And just how do you know that? Everyone, including Maze, just assumed that this is what Dad wanted but, as Lucifer said, there was no actual proof. It's a logical conclusion everyone would jump to - a prisoner has escaped, a guard gets shown the empty cell/open door, guard thinks prisoner has to be brought back. Maze doesn't know any more than Lucifer does, as a matter of fact, she probably knows less because she hasn't seen the empty cell. And she has a score to settle with Mom, so I'd consider her a little biased.

But unless someone, no matter who, actually tells someone what they want, no one can know for sure unless they can read minds and so far, it's been established that that's not one of Lucifer and Co's powers.

The very easy answer is that God never, ever, wants more sin.  Mum being loosed guarantees it, and it has already occurred.  Also, I have found in my life that judging others by their actions is a much better method of determining their actual wants of.  Words?  Not so much.

There are certainly a bazillion stories of redemption.  However, that requires a proactively expressed desire for such.  There has been none of that from Mum.  In fact, the opposite has been voiced.  She would perform her betrayal (As her "husband" sees it) anytime she saw, through her willful eyes, God unjustly punishing Luci.  Given her special powers, it would be especially important to God that she not be loosed on earth.   

Maze, being a smart demon, has observed God for a very, very, long time and has learned that when God does something, that's it.  Unless, He wants to undo it.  Her very survival depends on correct readings of God's will.  Now Luci has really gone and done it, "killing" a brother who was righteously acting on Dad's behalf.

I note that several folks have indicated that the writers significantly veered from the source material in this ep.  This gets to my main criticism of the show.

The creators just make it up as they go along.  It's a damn shame.

Anyone who has no difficulty suspending disbelief and accepting whatever set-ups come our way is 100% entitled.  Good for them!  My opinion is NOT automatically better.

[CheshireCat]

19 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The very easy answer is that God never, ever, wants more sin.  Mum being loosed guarantees it, and it has already occurred.  Also, I have found in my life that judging others by their actions is a much better method of determining their actual wants of.  Words?  Not so much.

There are certainly a bazillion stories of redemption.  However, that requires a proactively expressed desire for such.  There has been none of that from Mum.  In fact, the opposite has been voiced.  She would perform her betrayal (As her "husband" sees it) anytime she saw, through her willful eyes, God unjustly punishing Luci.  Given her special powers, it would be especially important to God that she not be loosed on earth.   

I have to admit I have a hard time following your train of thought, however, point is, we don't know what happened. We know what Lucifer thinks happened (that because of his being a rebel, Dad sent him to Hell and then Mom ended up in Hell, too) and we know what Mom told him (she was the one who wanted Lucifer to become the Lord of the Underworld so he would live and that she didn't do anything). And what is attributed to Mom - the plagues and floods - are seen as punishment from God for humanity's sins, so I'm not sure they should be interpreted as sins. They sound more like Mom was acting out. Therefore, we have no idea what happened that caused everyone to end up where they ended up and since we don't know we can't know what someone wants.

 

19 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Maze, being a smart demon, has observed God for a very, very, long time and has learned that when God does something, that's it.

By her own and Lucifer's account, Maze was forged by the fires of Hell to protect Lucifer and torture condemned souls. I have no idea where you get the idea from that she'd have observed God (or that she would have had time to do so ;-)). The only connection she seems to have to him is through Lucifer but that's it.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Loved Luci offering to take Ella into a back room at the crime scene.

What really cracked me up is Ella agreeing to it, before shaking off the thought. Apparently there's a little bit of naughty desire underneath all that purity, Sister Christian.  ;)

Quote

Luci, Uri, Mase -- no nickname for Amenadiel?

Amenadiel is way too uptight for nicknames. (Sorry, Amenadiel, but it's true.)

I went back and forth with this episode. I really liked the conflict that Amenadiel and Lucifer were feeling, I liked finally seeing them move Amenadiel's secret forward and out into the open, I loved seeing Maze kick ass, I was amused by Lucifer's overprotectiveness of Chloe, and I was really impressed with Tom's approach in the final scene (excellent depth!). And even though I don't trust his mother one bit, I did believe her grief in that scene as well.

But what I struggle with is the same thing I struggled with when I watched Supernatural. How they over-humanize the relationships of the celestial beings. Back in the early seasons of Supernatural, the Yellow-Eyed Demon vowed vengeance upon John and his family, all because "You killed my kids." He was evil, and those killed were his minions, but we're supposed to picture that violent, destructive, evil creature to be a paternal being who loves? It just didn't fit. And it brought the whole storyline down a few pegs for me as a viewer.

So while I appreciate the overall struggle of Lucifer railing against his father (and I really do love when he gets in a good rant about it), I really don't like or believe the dialogue where they're talking as if life in heaven involved all of them behaving like humans.

Mom felt ignored because Dad was tinkering too much on this side project called Humanity? That's why she doesn't like her "husband"? That's why she brought floods and damage and destruction? Talk about your overreaction. *sigh* I'm just not buying it. And why would God send his kids to corral his wife? Give me a break. Doesn't sound very powerful to me when looked at it from that angle. He's making his kids do his dirty work? Bleh.

Lucifer and his brothers ignored Uriel and wouldn't let him play with them? Oh, please. Just that one line made me eyeroll -- it took a lot of the power out of their fight and made it seem like whiny sibling rivalry rather than superpowered and celestial fights over something bigger.

I get pulled out of the story when they try to make it too human where it doesn't feel right or believable to be.

Edited October 30, 2016 by sinkwriter

[ProudMary]

1 hour ago, sinkwriter said:

Amenadiel is way too uptight for nicknames. (Sorry, Amenadiel, but it's true.)

Well, he may not have a shortened nickname but there is Amenadude!

[sinkwriter]

I just picture Amenadiel giving someone the dry, unamused staredown if they ever tried to give him a nickname.  *GRIN*

Come to think of it, has Lucifer ever given him an affectionate nickname of any kind? Or does he just call him Amenadiel, Brother, or some sort of insult?

[CheshireCat]

6 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

 

Lucifer and his brothers ignored Uriel and wouldn't let him play with them? Oh, please. Just that one line made me eyeroll -- it took a lot of the power out of their fight and made it seem like whiny sibling rivalry rather than superpowered and celestial fights over something bigger.

Jealousy can be a powerful motive. Aren't most motives for murder jealousy and money? Either way, as far as I know, jealousy ranks pretty high. I knew a kid who tried to put a pillow over his brother's head to suffocate him. Kid was two or three, brother still a baby. The family didn't survive the jealousy, the kid's not talking to his mother anymore. I definitely bought it.

[sinkwriter]

I agree that jealousy can be a powerful motive and it's certainly something that affects us on earth and can cause people to hurt one another. But I don't like them writing Lucifer and family as if they were living lives in heaven like humans do on earth. The way the writers tell it, it's as if it's Mom and Dad bringing up the kids, taking them to school, the older kids picking on the younger ones, no one wants to play with Uriel, Mom's the long-suffering wife whose husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, etc. I don't believe that. It just seems too earth-bound. Is that really what they want us to think heaven is like? What's the point of following God's every rule in order to get there if it's not much different than where we are now? No wonder Lucifer wanted to break free and do his own thing.  ;)  I can buy jealousy and anger/wrath, but I lose connection with the overall story idea of heavenly life being almost exactly like earth. That's where they're losing me. That's why I eyeroll a lot of the mom story. 

[CheshireCat]

8 minutes ago, sinkwriter said:

I agree that jealousy can be a powerful motive and it's certainly something that affects us on earth and can cause people to hurt one another. But I don't like them writing Lucifer and family as if they were living lives in heaven like humans do on earth. The way the writers tell it, it's as if it's Mom and Dad bringing up the kids, taking them to school, the older kids picking on the younger ones, no one wants to play with Uriel, Mom's the long-suffering wife whose husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, etc. I don't believe that. It just seems too earth-bound. Is that really what they want us to think heaven is like? What's the point of following God's every rule in order to get there if it's not much different than where we are now? No wonder Lucifer wanted to break free and do his own thing.  ;)  I can buy jealousy and anger/wrath, but I lose connection with the overall story idea of heavenly life being almost exactly like earth. That's where they're losing me. That's why I eyeroll a lot of the mom story. 

I'm not sure that's all there is to Mom's story. I also don't think that the afterlife and Mom and Dad and their kid's family life have to one and the same.

Looking at it the other way around - why shouldn't they have the same problems as humans do? We always think of them as these flawless beings but why shouldn't they have the same problems? I think that is what the show is trying to say. That they may be celestial beings but they're not flawless. They fight. They are jealous. They have a broken family. In other words, they're not perfect, just like no human is ever perfect. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to be the best person we can be, however, it also means that no one is expecting us to be perfect because God and his family aren't perfect either.

[sinkwriter]

Oh, I'm sure they have something planned for the Mom story. It's got to be going somewhere. I just don't like how it's gone so far. I think they had this huge buildup in the season 1 finale by showing both Lucifer and Amenadiel terrified at the thought of Mom escaping hell, and a great start with the first episode of this new season, where she shows up bloodied and Lucifer shaken when he realizes it's her. And then... bleh. Her part of the story has been really boring.  I don't trust her -- otherwise her kids wouldn't have been so terrified of her getting out -- but in general we see her doing not much of anything except sniping at Maze, emotionally manipulating her sons, and whining / freaking out about living life on earth. Big deal. This is the big scary Mom? At least show us a hint of something, other than one heavenward smirk when her kids aren't in the room.

Quote

We always think of them as these flawless beings but why shouldn't they have the same problems?

Because they're not supposed to have the same kind of lives as we do. That's partly why humanity is supposed to be so wonderfully novel to Lucifer, and why it's so bizarre and confusing to all the other celestial beings. Because they don't live like we do, so they don't understand us or our behaviors. And unless the writers are going to back it up bravely, making God flawed creates big story problems that could paint them into a troublesome corner.

[CheshireCat]

4 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

Because they're not supposed to have the same kind of lives as we do. That's partly why humanity is supposed to be so wonderfully novel to Lucifer, and why it's so bizarre and confusing to all the other celestial beings. Because they don't live like we do, so they don't understand us or our behaviors. And unless the writers are going to back it up bravely, making God flawed creates big story problems that could paint them into a troublesome corner.

Lucifer doesn't seem to have troubles understanding emotions, he seems to have more troubles understanding actions and consequences and responsibility. But how do you want to portray them if they don't have feelings? I think they need to have feelings because problems are born out of feelings. Lucifer rebelled because he was feelings something. If you don't feel anything then you don't act. But they don't have our worldly concerns "up there"; they don't need to worry about money, for example, or love in a sense of commitment/marriage and it seems they all have a somewhat selfish streak which I think is in line with them being "higher" beings. Humans can't just party but in a way, even what Lucifer doesn't understand and has to learn is human - you could easily compare him with a spoiled sprat whose parents have money, who spent his whole life living of parents' money, partying endlessly and then suddenly, he decides to start learning about "real" life. That's basically who Lucifer is.

[sinkwriter]

I want them to have feelings. I'm good with that. I love Lucifer's rebellion. It's both powerful and at times hilarious.

It's the giving them a story as if their heaven-based lives are/were as mundane as human lives is where they lose me. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by sinkwriter

[CheshireCat]

18 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I want them to have feelings. I'm good with that. I love Lucifer's rebellion. It's both powerful and at times hilarious.

It's the giving them a story as if their heaven-based lives are/were as mundane as human lives is where they lose me. 

Personally, I don't think it's mundane if a toddler tries to kill their brother. But that aside - what problems should they have? If their problem were who gets to rule the world, if you strip away the grandeur of it, you'd still have jealousy or greed at the basis of the problem. Every conflict is born out of an emotion, so if they are supposed to have emotions then how could they not have problems which mirror those of humans?

Thought number two - they're celestial beings, celestial beings are held to a higher standard. So why not give them a break and allow them to have some mundane problems?

Thought number three - if their problems aren't mirroring those of humans, could we really relate to the characters as well as we do and find them sympathetic? Would we really be able to feel for them as well if they were fighting over who gets to create the next universe because they have an otherwise perfect life and those were their problems?

[HouseofBeck]

On 10/31/2016 at 0:31 AM, sinkwriter said:

I agree that jealousy can be a powerful motive and it's certainly something that affects us on earth and can cause people to hurt one another. But I don't like them writing Lucifer and family as if they were living lives in heaven like humans do on earth. The way the writers tell it, it's as if it's Mom and Dad bringing up the kids, taking them to school, the older kids picking on the younger ones, no one wants to play with Uriel, Mom's the long-suffering wife whose husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, etc. I don't believe that. It just seems too earth-bound. Is that really what they want us to think heaven is like? What's the point of following God's every rule in order to get there if it's not much different than where we are now? No wonder Lucifer wanted to break free and do his own thing.  ;)  I can buy jealousy and anger/wrath, but I lose connection with the overall story idea of heavenly life being almost exactly like earth. That's where they're losing me. That's why I eyeroll a lot of the mom story. 

I always think now of what Twain wrote, which I believe is in "Letters From The Earth," and I am now paraphrasing badly his concept of Satan truly bewildered at why humanity chooses to imagine a heaven so very different from all they enjoy here on Earth.

I am loving this season, minus the mom, and that's mostly because I don't like being pandered to too obviously with T&A. Plus her grimacing facial expressions distract me. But I am still interested in the long game she's playing, and wish Luci had comforted Amenadude the way his mum comforted him. And just how far will her understanding last, if we get more angels coming down that Luci has to deflect?

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/31/2016 at 0:31 AM, sinkwriter said:

But I don't like them writing Lucifer and family as if they were living lives in heaven like humans do on earth. The way the writers tell it, it's as if it's Mom and Dad bringing up the kids, taking them to school, the older kids picking on the younger ones, no one wants to play with Uriel, Mom's the long-suffering wife whose husband doesn't pay enough attention to her, etc. I don't believe that. It just seems too earth-bound. Is that really what they want us to think heaven is like?

I agree. It's fine when Lucifer is using earthly family life tropes so Dr. Martin can understand the dynamic, but when Charlotte is speaking to her sons about their relationships it shouldn't sound so... mundane. I certainly didn't get that vibe when Lucifer and Amenadiel were sniping at each other early in the first season, there was a sense of majesty about their disputes.

[NutMeg]

Then again, all the Greek/Roman gods are extremely relatable in terms of human-like emotions and behaviours, except that they are much more outrageous that humans in how they act out :)

[Mabinogia]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 4:00 AM, NutMeg said:

Then again, all the Greek/Roman gods are extremely relatable in terms of human-like emotions and behaviours, except that they are much more outrageous that humans in how they act out :)

That's the problem. Uri toddling after his brothers wanting to play with them, mum being pissed that her husband is busy in the shed paying with his train set (humans) is just...boring. The greek gods had all that jealousy and sex and vengeance but it was epic. Luci's celestial world just seems so pedestrian now. I don't know how they could have improved it, I'm not a writer on the show, but I know that the way they are writing it is making them all seem so unimpressive. I want them to be impressive, not a typical dysfunctional family. It just feels watered down.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/26/2016 at 3:05 PM, icemiser69 said:

Now on to the kid Trixie.  Who the heck names their kid Trixie?  It sounds like a name of a hooker, stripper, or a rabbit that sells cereal.

It's based on an adult character in the comic, and is short for Beatrice.

Edited November 7, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Emma9]

So I was looking around on the show's Tvtropes page, and saw some references that got me thinking again about the 'I play this note and Chloe will die' threat. How could it possibly trigger a series of events that would kill her when there was no one there to hear it but Lucifer?

Then I realized - all it meant was that Lucifer himself, some action of his, would have to be the next domino. After all, 'knowing' that Chloe was doomed would certainly affect his behavior, probably making him even more overprotective than he was during the rest of the episode, and in so doing he could unwittingly set off just the wrong sequence and get her killed.

And if he realized that possibility, and concluded that he could defy fate by simply staying away from her until the critical period had passed? Well, what if Uriel foresaw him doing that, and knew that Chloe would get into a situation where she'd get killed without him there?

All utterly a moot point now, of course, but it struck me as a really interesting idea if that's what they were going for.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Emma9

[Lugal]

Lucifer might not necessarily play into it at all.  The note on that organ can scare a bird or something that could set a whole other chain of events in motion that Lucifer plays no part in, a For want of a nail situation.  Remember when we first met Uriel, he almost took out Chloe just by moving a skateboard two feet away.

[Emma9]

22 hours ago, Lugal said:

Lucifer might not necessarily play into it at all.  The note on that organ can scare a bird or something that could set a whole other chain of events in motion that Lucifer plays no part in, a For want of a nail situation.  Remember when we first met Uriel, he almost took out Chloe just by moving a skateboard two feet away.

Fair enough, it seemed like a much more isolated situation than the others, but it could be something like the bird. It just also felt like it could become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy if they wanted to play it like that.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Emma9