S12.E02: Mamma Mia

[MysteryGuest]

I like the theory that since Rowena isn't actually opening the cage, Lucifer cannot be put back the magical way, if he's in a vessel.  That makes sense to me, actually.  

I think Dean is a pleaser by nature.  He would contort himself into a pretzel to keep his brother and father from going at it.  I think he did that as a young child between John and Mary, as well.  He wants the people he loves to be happy, at his own expense.  

Edited October 22, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And then there's the old standby, "memories" that really just come from pictures. I don't know how they have so many family photos since their house essentially burnt down and Mary and John were both orphans by then (so there wasn't a big stash of photos at grandma's or something), but they do.

See this is another squirrelly thing.  Dean didn't have any pictures or just maybe the one that John had of him, Sam and John. IIRC the other two or three were given to him in Home by the mom that found them in their house. There weren't any others. I wondered about that in s10 in Black when Sam was in Dean's room. Those were photos of Bobby and the boys which okay maybe Dean had stashed but I blew it off. 

If that photo of Bobby and the hunters from the End!Verse was always in John's journal and was supposed to be him and soldiers, why hasn't it been seen before?  That would be IMO too important to never see before.  As an aside, is it me or does the journal look bigger than the one Dean carries around in his jacket pocket?

Edited October 22, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

As an aside, is it me or does the journal look bigger than the one Dean carries around in his jacket pocket?

I even paused it and asked my daughter if it was the same journal, she didn't think so either. We thought it not only looked bigger but a lighter color maybe, quick someone find screen caps, lol.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

I even paused it and asked my daughter if it was the same journal, she didn't think so either. We thought it not only looked bigger but a lighter color maybe, quick someone find screen caps, lol.

ON IT!!

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.

I think it was shorthand for saying she wasn't the idealized stay at home, perfect mommy. She was her strong, independent self, even if she wasn't hunting anymore.

[catrox14]

John's journal in Wendigo

:

 

John's journal in First Born

Sure looks smaller and darker than the one in Mamma Mia.

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Sure looks smaller and darker than the one in Mamma Mia.

It could be the lighting or camera angles too, so it's hard to say but I thought the same thing. 

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

It could be the lighting or camera angles too, so it's hard to say but I thought the same thing. 

Or perspective. Jensen's hands are big and maybe the journal just looks bigger in Mary's hands? I dunno. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

John wasn`t capable of compromise, of "submitting" to another like that in the interest of keeping the unit going. 

John was a marine.  He would have had to learn to compromise and "submit" in the interest of keeping the unit going.  That being said, I don't know what his final rank in the Corp was.  If he was in a leadership position, he was probably also used to having his orders follwed, Period.  So I can see both ways.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

WHY can't he be put back in a vessel? 

Maybe he can, but only if the vessel goes with him like Sam did?  And since most people, er 'vessels', wouldn't willingly agree to go to Hell, then it ain't happening.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I thought oh boy, I've gone over the edge. I guess we went together! LOL

::snort::  It's a slippery slope, ain't it?  

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sure looks smaller and darker than the one in Mamma Mia.

I would think the guys have also added to it over the years, which would account for the larger size.  Got nothing on the color.  Maybe they used saddle soap?  Lol.

[trxr4kids]

Oh I remembered something else I liked about the episode, the song choice. Have we ever heard Heart on Supernatural before? Seems like they must have used Barracuda at some point. It would have been Meg appropriate.

Edited October 22, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

I noticed that size and color of the journal when Sam was holding it. Jared's mitts are bigger than Jensen's and it looked bigger in Sam's hands when it should look smaller if it's the same prop.

Pictures of the journal from multiple episodes. http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=John's_Journal

They look bigger and smaller, darker and lighter, some are stuffed with so much it's almost falling out. Some look fairly sparse. Maybe the journal used in First Born is outlier so it would fit in Deans' jacket. I can't tell anymore. LOL

That said, I still think the picture from the End!Verse is weird and needs some splainin'.

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

John was a marine.  He would have had to learn to compromise and "submit" in the interest of keeping the unit going.  That being said, I don't know what his final rank in the Corp was.  If he was in a leadership position, he was probably also used to having his orders follwed, Period.  So I can see both ways.  

John was a corporal. He himself said he treated them like soldiers so yeah I don't think John was much for compromise especially after Mary died and he was trying to protect the boys

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't think it's unusual that he remembered liking "her" meatloaf. I have lots of food memories from that age and earlier.

Same here.  Not sure how young I was, but before we moved to Texas when I was 4, we had a Lhasa Apso named Baby that loved spaghetti.  I remember her face being stained with that tomato sauce for days after eating it.

I still have the scar on my chin from that same dog.  So a traumatic injury (like your beloved pet biting your face or your mother dying) can cement memories.

I took Mary's "I don't cook" as "Just because I'm your mom, don't expect me to cook and clean up after you."

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

This just makes me laugh. Not because you're wrong, but because if only that witchy demon Ruby knew she could so easily get Satan out of his cage back in S4 she wouldn't have had pretend she was a friend to Sam all those months. What a waste! ;)

What about Azazel?  All that work he did (and all those nuns he killed!) just to talk to Lucifer when all he needed was the Book of the Damned and a witch.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

What about Azazel?  All that work he did (and all those nuns he killed!) just to talk to Lucifer when all he needed was the Book of the Damned and a witch.  ;-)

Oh, they're all a bunch of loosers; Yellow Eyes, Lilith, Ruby, even Lucifer. Stupid Satan and his overly complicated plans for world domination! ;)

[bethy]

9 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I took Mary's "I don't cook" as "Just because I'm your mom, don't expect me to cook and clean up after you."

That seems kind of harsh to me given that there's no indication that either Sam or Dean expected cooking or cleaning of Mary. We've seen her provide one meal for her sons, so if that's what she meant is seems oddly defensive to me. I took it as an "Eh, I'm not interested in cooking or particularly good at it, so I don't do it often or happily." I know any number of people - men and women - who say they "don't cook," but I never take it as an absolute statement that they've literally never prepared a meal in their lives. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I would think the guys have also added to it over the years, which would account for the larger size.  Got nothing on the color.  Maybe they used saddle soap?  Lol.

I mean the dimensions of the leather cover itself not the thickness of the journal. The contents will change, page size will vary and even the leather can become discolored over time. It's the leather binder seems to change size! LOL

[Aeryn13]

Quote

John was a corporal. He himself said he treated them like soldiers so yeah I don't think John was much for compromise especially after Mary died and he was trying to protect the boys

While Bobby could definitely be somewhat of a drama queen, John drove him so far as to get chased off his property via shotgun. Maybe before Mary`s death he was capable of compromising - the Matt Cohen version definitely appeared softer - but afterwards, I just can`t see it. The Jeffrey Dean Morgan-John contorting himself into a pretzel to keep the peace and harmny - which is an accurate description for Dean - is just something I can`t even envision. Even if John genuinely wanted to, I thinkhe just couldn`t go through with it.  

Quote

Oh, they're all a bunch of loosers; Yellow Eyes, Lilith, Ruby, even Lucifer. Stupid Satan and his overly complicated plans for world domination! ;)

It`s the same thing with opening Purgatory. Crowley worked so hard at it in Season 6, he recruited Cas, went after the monster alphas, did this scheme to force the Winchesters to work for him, tried to torture all kinds of monsters for info, the whole shebang. Come Season 8, there are rogue reapers, pardon angels, hop-skipping there at their leisure and Crowley can easily find, threaten and kill them. Fuck you, continuity.  

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s the same thing with opening Purgatory. Crowley worked so hard at it in Season 6, he recruited Cas, went after the monster alphas, did this scheme to force the Winchesters to work for him, tried to torture all kinds of monsters for info, the whole shebang. Come Season 8, there are rogue reapers, pardon angels, hop-skipping there at their leisure and Crowley can easily find, threaten and kill them. Fuck you, continuity.  

Oh yeah, stupid Leviathans not finding there was a backdoor to Hell or capturing a reaper to do their bidding in the thousands of years they were locked away plotting what they were going to do once they got out. ;)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

I took Mary's "I don't cook" as "Just because I'm your mom, don't expect me to cook and clean up after you."

 

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

That seems kind of harsh to me given that there's no indication that either Sam or Dean expected cooking or cleaning of Mary. We've seen her provide one meal for her sons, so if that's what she meant is seems oddly defensive to me. I took it as an "Eh, I'm not interested in cooking or particularly good at it, so I don't do it often or happily." I know any number of people - men and women - who say they "don't cook," but I never take it as an absolute statement that they've literally never prepared a meal in their lives. 

That whole scene was strange.

Mary cooking wasn't an issue until she made it an issue. She was defensive when she didn't need to be. Dean was raving about the take out she ordered. I thought his excitement about the meatloaf was him being supportive of her cooking because he remembered how good it was, not because he was expecting her to cook. I thought her "sorry to burst your bubble" was unnecessarily harsh and snarky. Like why was she so defensive?

The only head!canon I have is that maybe she's still in the mindset of the 70s and 80s when there was some expectation that as a mother she should do the cooking and she was not doing that. Maybe she made an assumption about the boys because she doesn't yet understand that her boys are not male chauvinists IMO

[bethy]

That's so interesting. I didn't find the scene strange or snarky at all. Just something that might come up among three people who don't know each other. I can't remember what Dean said that prompted Mary's "I don't cook," but her response struck me as somewhat rueful, but not defensive in any way. We're definitely in a YMOV {your mileage obviously varies] situation. :)

Edited October 22, 2016 by bethy
clarity

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

That seems kind of harsh to me given that there's no indication that either Sam or Dean expected cooking or cleaning of Mary. We've seen her provide one meal for her sons, so if that's what she meant is seems oddly defensive to me.

Well, I imagined her saying it with a little twinkle in her eye.  Doesn't sound harsh to me at all.  :-)

[SueB]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought that was maybe a reference to one of the times they went back to the past?  When they showed up at their house when the angels were after Mary?  Maybe someone with a better memory of all the eps can clear that up.  

This is probably very trivial - especially compared to the more meaningful conversations happening about the episode - but Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.  Her and John were married for how long?  At least 6 years, right?  Dean was 4 when she died, and he was born a few years after they married.   Anyway, late 70's early 80's and John was working as a mechanic.  No mention of Mary having a job outside the house - and the Show is basically saying in all of 6-7+ years of marriage Mary never cooked once?  It was all take out?  Back then?  I don't buy it.  

Also: She shopped The Pig!  (Piggly Wiggly)  I thought that was just a Southern thing, so I had to look it up.  As of 2014, there were no Pigs in Kansas.  :(  I guess there could have been back then and they closed since.  So many have.  There are Pigs in Missouri and Oklahoma.  

 

We used to have them in Iowa (but I looked, and they are not there now), so I laughed when she mentioned the Piggly Wiggly because I thought that was limited in where it was at.  I didn't realize it was big in the South.  But my guess is that they had it back then. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I don't remember the exact wording, but I think it went like:

Dean complimented the meal.  

(I might have the next part in the wrong order) Mary said All she did was point at things on a take out menu.  She would have cooked dinner, but she doesn't cook.

Whether she said she doesn't cook before or after the take out menu part is almost irrelevant, imo.  Why didn't she just say, 'all she did was point at things on a take out menu' and leave it at that?  Why even bring up, 'I don't cook' -  except as others have pointed out to lay the groundwork of 'don't expect me to be cooking for you and cleaning up after you.'  I'm not sure it was terribly defensive (although, from that pov, it is a little defensive) but I don't think it was rueful either.  I don't think it was meant to be harsh either.  I do agree with @catrox14 that her mindset is probably the expectation that as their mother, or the woman in house, she would do the cooking and cleaning.  And she's just marking her territory there.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

That's so interesting. I didn't find the scene strange or snarky at all. Just something that might come up among three people who don't know each other. I can't remember what Dean said that prompted Mary's "I don't cook," but her response struck me as somewhat rueful, but not defensive in any way. We're definitely in a YMOV {your mileage obviously varies] situation. :)

 Just to aid in the discussion. From the transcript.

Quote

 

Dean: Oh, that was fantastic. Thank you, Mom.

Mary: [ Chuckles ] All I did was point at some stuff on a take-out menu.  I would've cooked, but I, uh...don't.

Dean: Well, now, wait.  Your meat loaf was amazing.

Mary: Came from the Piggly Wiggly.    Sorry to burst your bubble.  But do you still like pie?

 

IMO, per the usual much of this exchange was reliant on Jensen's non-verbal acting. IMO, he was taken aback that Mary didn't make the best meat loaf. Not angry or upset, just more like surprised. Then Mary went with the "sorry to burst your bubble" which was for me was like, what?

Ultimately IMO that was just to set up Dean sitting alone in the kitchen, looking over pictures and being pretty confused IMO and Sam having his moment with Mary reminding her he knows what it's like to be the outsider.  Meh, it was just not my cuppa

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

We used to have them in Iowa (but I looked, and they are not there now), so I laughed when she mentioned the Piggly Wiggly because I thought that was limited in where it was at.  I didn't realize it was big in the South.  But my guess is that they had it back then. 

Wow, Iowa, really?  And Oregon too back in the day?  That's funny, because I didn't realize they were so far spread at one time!  If you look at the map of current locations, it's mostly south to midwest.  (and it was founded in Memphis, TN, so South makes sense, imo.)  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wow, Iowa, really?  And Oregon too back in the day?  That's funny, because I didn't realize they were so far spread at one time!  If you look at the map of current locations, it's mostly south to midwest.  (and it was founded in Memphis, TN, so South makes sense, imo.)  

I only know about them because I had relatives in the South. I remember shopping at Winn Dixie in NC and Florida.

[Aeryn13]

I guess it was a bit clumsy in getting the point across that Mary is just a stranger to them. Dean may have the memories but the person he is remembering died and is actually never coming back. For Sam, she really is a stranger but I figure he also believed that somehow magically there would be a bond there. Hence, all three of them had mopey montages in the end. 

To me the real test of their interaction will be next episode. This was all just set-up and awkwardness. I mean, it was awkward enough that poor Dean felt the need to talk it through with Cas on the phone, the guy who still hasn`t got much of a clue about human interaction.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

We used to have them in Iowa (but I looked, and they are not there now), so I laughed when she mentioned the Piggly Wiggly because I thought that was limited in where it was at.  I didn't realize it was big in the South.  But my guess is that they had it back then. 

That's fascinating! I had only ever heard of them in the South before I read that book some number of years ago. But, I was young then and there's a lot of things I hadn't heard of. I really didn't realize it was such a big chain allover the country back in the day. Love that.

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Whether she said she doesn't cook before or after the take out menu part is almost irrelevant, imo.  Why didn't she just say, 'all she did was point at things on a take out menu' and leave it at that?  Why even bring up, 'I don't cook' -  except as others have pointed out to lay the groundwork of 'don't expect me to be cooking for you and cleaning up after you.'  I'm not sure it was terribly defensive (although, from that pov, it is a little defensive) but I don't think it was rueful either.  I don't think it was meant to be harsh either.

Just to be clear, I don't think Mary was saying she wasn't going to be cooking and cleaning for them, but the show may have been trying to convey that. A lot of people seemed to be worried they brought Mary back to only be "Mom of the Bunker" and I think the show just wanted to establish that's not going to happen. But, I think the show also managed to make it into a very reasonable and nice character beat of a family learning something about each other.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I only know about them because I had relatives in the South. I remember shopping at Winn Dixie in NC and Florida.

I miss Winn Dixies!  I think they are pretty much gone now.  Don't know of any left in SC.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just to be clear, I don't think Mary was saying she wasn't going to be cooking and cleaning for them, but the show may have been trying to convey that. A lot of people seemed to be worried they brought Mary back to only be "Mom of the Bunker" and I think the show just wanted to establish that's not going to happen. But, I think the show also managed to make it into a very reasonable and nice character beat of a family learning something about each other.

I agree about the show trying to convey that Mary didn't come back just to me "Mom."  But since they had Mary say it, it becomes Mary saying she wasn't going to be cooking (I'm just adding cleaning cause they usually go together. :) )  for them.  Maybe it could have been done a better way?  But maybe not.  I think the Show probably needed to get that message out pretty early with Mary's return.  

[MysteryGuest]

It really was interesting to watch Sam and Dean react to their mother's return.  Sam is a bit awestruck, and emotional because he was meeting this mythical creature for the first time.  It's all new for him.

Dean is thrilled that she's back, but he very much remembers his mother.  It might be a mix of his memories of her and things his father had told him, but it all becomes memory as we age, and we can't always remember whether we experienced it first hand, or not.  He has looked at those pictures all of his life and for years his only driving force was avenging his mother's death.  Now she's back, and she's an actual person, not a memory.  But she's not exactly who he remembers.  I think it's going to take him a while to come to grips with all of that.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree about the show trying to convey that Mary didn't come back just to me "Mom."  But since they had Mary say it, it becomes Mary saying she wasn't going to be cooking (I'm just adding cleaning cause they usually go together. :) )

But, I don't think Mary was saying that. I think she was just talking as people do sometimes. I don't think she meant anything by it, myself.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I don't think Mary was saying that. I think she was just talking as people do sometimes. I don't think she meant anything by it, myself.

She might have been saying it casually but it wasn't a casual comment for the narrative, if that makes sense.

If was just about awkward casual conversation it could have ended with "I just pointed to a menu' and Dean could have replied with 'well you pointed well" or something silly and charming. The End. To me, it's the establishing that she doesn't cook, don't expect it, even though there is no evidence the boys as characters expected it which is why it was weird for me

[MysteryGuest]

Initially, when Mary was telling Dean that she didn't cook, and that she bought the meatloaf from a store, I felt bad for him...another memory dashed.  But then I figured I was just being over-sensitive on his behalf, and that she really didn't mean anything by it.  I have to remind myself that she's adjusting to this situation as much as they are, if not more.  

They haven't really addressed what this feels like for her.  Has she felt any passage of time, or does it seem like she went to sleep one day and woke up the next with two grown men in place of her babies?  They've had 30 years to adjust to her being gone, but I can't imagine what she's feeling.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, I think it was necessary to have that line about the meatloaf to emphasize that having Mary back as a real person is conflicting with Dean's idealized memories. Mary didn't do anything wrong -- I didn't see it as snarky or insensitive -- but from Dean's perspective, he's being reminded that he hasn't really gotten back the "mom" he's built up in his mind over the years. Since Sam didn't have any memories of Mary at all, he isn't having quite the same issue.

I was actually surprised that Dean didn't offer any response to Mary's expression of guilt over the deal with YED. It seems to me that a couple of obvious responses would have been

1. We've all made some horrible mistakes; Sam will understand - it isn't like you're the only member of this family to make a deal with the YED.

2. Even if you hadn't, we were destined to wind up in this mess (which would also have been a reasonable response to "I can't believe Sam went back to hunting after getting out" -- while he could have stayed at Stanford after Jess's death, at a certain point he really wouldn't have had a choice).

I'm wondering the writers didn't go with one of those. Maybe to underscore that Dean really doesn't know what to say (and what to reveal) to Mary? It does occur to me that we don't know how much she knows about the whole apocalypse deal. Presumably, she has gotten some explanation about why the boys are best friends with an angel and in a position to get gifts from God's sister. But are there other things she doesn't know that are going to come back to have some ramifications.

It has also occurred to me that Mary is, presumably, a possible vessel for Lucifer, although I really don't want them to go there. 

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

It has also occurred to me that Mary is, presumably, a possible vessel for Lucifer, although I really don't want them to go there.

Oh, man...I never thought about this, but now that you've mentioned it all I can say is please no!  I am holding out hope that they will dispatch Lucifer by mid-season so we can get on to something new.  I don't want his story going on for another full season.  

[Aeryn13]

Dean is also a possible vessel for Lucifer, they never went there either. I don`t think Lucifer is really concerned with that all anymore. I mean, he needs some vessel to interact on Earth but it`s not like he needs one to survive. Till he figures out what he actually wants longterm, he can go burning through them like no tomorrow. Playing a few mindgames to make someone give consent seems like a small thing to do and actually be something Lucifer enjoys. 

[Bessie]

I hope you're right, @Aeryn13.  I've been nervous since Mary first appeared that her being lucifers vessel was the endgame for her storyline. 

[DittyDotDot]

I'm guessing Lucifer it trying to stay as far away from the Winchesters as he can at this point and nabbing their mother would be nothing short of painting a bullseye on his back. Plus, Lucifer doesn't yet know she's back. Hopefully it stays that way.

[MysteryGuest]

I watched the episode again this afternoon.  I know we discussed what happened to Sam's injuries and Dean and Mary's cuts and bruises after the fight with Lady Pantsaretootight, and we assumed that Castiel had healed them like he normally does.  He also evidently healed Dean and Mary after the car accident and subsequent fight with the BMOL chick.  When Dean squats down to talk to Mary after all of that went down, she no longer has her cut forehead, and he doesn't have any cuts or bruises from his brass knuckle beatdown.  So I guess at this point in the series, we're to just assume that Cas will always heal them of their various injuries, as long as he's around to do so.  

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It has also occurred to me that Mary is, presumably, a possible vessel for Lucifer, although I really don't want them to go there. 

Actually, I believe it was John's bloodline that was important for Lucifer's/Michael's vessels. Thus why Adam was available as a substitute for Dean. Adam is John's son, but not Mary's.

Edited October 23, 2016 by FlickChick

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, I believe it was John's bloodline that was important for Lucifer's/Michael's vessels. Thus why Adam was available as a substitute for Dean. Adam is John's son, but not Mary's.

John's bloodline was important, but (I think) it was implied that Mary's was also vessel-worthy (that's why the angels made such a big deal to get John and Mary together.)  I'm going to assume that it was the combining of *two* vessel bloodlines that made the offspring strong enough to hold an archangel, which would mean Mary by herself wouldn't be; of course, that means Adam shouldn't have been, either--unless they just decided Michael wouldn't be in him long enough to make him explode.  

[trxr4kids]

20 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, I believe it was John's bloodline that was important for Lucifer's/Michael's vessels. Thus why Adam was available as a substitute for Dean. Adam is John's son, but not Mary's.

The cupids were assigned to bring John and Mary together so they could have both Sam and Dean. If only the Winchester bloodline was important in regards to hosting Lucifer and Michael it wouldn't have mattered who John had a kids with so why waste time with it. I have to assume the Campbell bloodline was an important factor or just some last minute crap they pulled outta their asses to try and tie everything together, either way works.

Or what @ahrtee posted while I was recovering my disappearing post. : )

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

John's bloodline was important, but (I think) it was implied that Mary's was also vessel-worthy (that's why the angels made such a big deal to get John and Mary together.)  I'm going to assume that it was the combining of *two* vessel bloodlines that made the offspring strong enough to hold an archangel, which would mean Mary by herself wouldn't be; of course, that means Adam shouldn't have been, either--unless they just decided Michael wouldn't be in him long enough to make him explode.  

Yeah, my understanding is the Campbell line are also vessels. In fact, at one time I thought they were implying that the Winchester line was Micheal's bloodline (that's why he could possess John and Adam) and the Campbell line was Lucifer's. But the combining of the two lines is what makes the vessels extra-strong. I think Mary would still be a candidate, just like Vince Vincetti and Nick, she just might burn out faster than Sam would? I dunno.

[trxr4kids]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

In fact, at one time I thought they were implying that the Winchester line was Micheal's bloodline (that's why he could possess John and Adam) and the Campbell line was Lucifer's

Michael implied it in This Song Remains The Same.....:From SuperWiki transcript

DEAN
How'd you get in my dad, anyway?

MICHAEL
I told him I could save his wife, and he said yes.

DEAN
I guess they oversold me being your one and only vessel.

MICHAEL
You're my true vessel but not my only one.

DEAN
What is that supposed to mean?

MICHAEL
It's a bloodline.

DEAN
A bloodline?

MICHAEL
Stretching back to Cain and Abel. It's in your blood, your father's blood, your family's blood.

DEAN
Awesome. Six degrees of Heaven Bacon. What do you want with me?

 

That to me implies the Winchester bloodline is Michael's which is further corroborated by him being able to use Adam. IMO it all strongly suggests that the Campbell's are the Lucifer preferred bloodline, which obviously leaves Dean, Sam and Mary at risk. However I'm confident Dean is safe since the show wouldn't have him possessed ever and Sam is equally safe because he's proven he can beat the devil. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/21/2016 at 10:15 PM, catrox14 said:

I think the drug targeted the sexual centers of this brain or even stimulated his sex hormones engaging that desire part. Lady GoRightToHell inserted herself into his hallucination by talking to him the entire time, kind of  like when you fall asleep with the TV on and the voices and faces work their way into your brain and your dreams.

 

On 10/21/2016 at 10:51 PM, catrox14 said:

It's not Sam having  a sex dream by happenstance like he did with Bela.

I'm saying that Lady FuckOffandDie controlled it by talking to him. She was guiding him to hallucinate sex with her via the drug cocktail. Her goal was to make him think she was a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know. She got a side of his humiliation because he was "fantasizing" about his torturer. That's why she got in his face and said "was it good for you" and he reacted with some shame because she knew he saw her.

The more I think about this (and I have been thinking about this entirely too much!) the more I have to REALLY agree with @catrox14.  Lady GonnaGetWhat'sComingToHerAndItAintGonnaBePretty said she used a potion and powerful spellwork to create the hallucination Sam had.  I think the potion made him susceptible, malleable - put him in a suggestible state of mind - if you will.  But the Powerful spell work definitely directed it.  In fact, when Sam fought his way out of the hallucination, Lady IWishICouldStabHer said she couldn't do the spell again because it would turn Sam's brain to mush.  (No such mention of the potion/drugs).  Which, to me, says that it must have been a powerful (okay, she already said it was) mind-control spell.  In other words, she didn't just insert herself into a pleasant fantasy that Sam's mind created on it's own to forget about the pain - she created the fantasy.  But not just by talking to him, I don't think.  I think the spell created the fantasy, or rather she created that specific hallucination using the spell.  I think then her talking to him was just to try to take advantage of his weakness at the moment.  

Also, interestingly, as I think DDD pointed out - Sam didn't really answer any of her questions.  Not the big, important ones she wanted answered.  He would redirect every time she asked something he didn't want to answer.  

But I don't think he looked away in shame when Lady Can'tGetAManUnlessSheDrugsHim asked if it was good for him.  I think it was disgust.  

Okay - just had to get this off my chest!  

Oh!  But speaking of chests - did anyone else notice that Sam did not have an anti-possession tattoo in the hallucination?  (And you know I only looked for research purposes.)  :)

[trxr4kids]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 In fact, when Sam fought his way out of the hallucination, Lady IWishICouldStabHer said she couldn't do the spell again because it would turn Sam's brain to mush.  (No such mention of the potion/drugs).  Which, to me, says that it must have been a powerful (okay, she already said it was) mind-control spell.  In other words, she didn't just insert herself into a pleasant fantasy that Sam's mind created on it's own to forget about the pain - she created the fantasy.  But not just by talking to him, I don't think.  I think the spell created the fantasy, or rather she created that specific hallucination using the spell.  I think then her talking to him was just to try to take advantage of his weakness at the moment.  

That was my take on it also. I have to say that regardless of if Sam's mind supplied the setting and she just tried to control it or she created it and tried to control it (which is my belief), it was still a horrific violation and one that the show already dismissed by the end of the episode. I'm not surprised since we've seen this type of thing repeatedly, I'm just really fed up with it to put it mildly. 

Anyway about the tattoo, it can be taken one of two ways imo, either Sam hasn't gotten his tat redone which is so stupid it's beyond words given how many times he's been possessed or it being absent was a subconscious clue to him that something wasn't right. My real guess is that the show hopes we've forgotten cause it takes too much effort to apply and they'd rather spend time and effort on LED eyes for Satan and pounds of makeup for Rowena.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

My real guess is that the show hopes we've forgotten cause it takes too much effort to apply and they'd rather spend time and effort on LED eyes for Satan and pounds of makeup for Rowena.

Agreed...the red eyes were silly.  Do they really think we can't figure out that Lucifer was possessing Vince.  Maybe, since Springfield didn't attempt to mimic Mark Pellegrino like Misha did last year, we wouldn't know it was him?  Lame, if that's the reason.  And they were definitely over-the-top with the eye makeup on Rowena this week.  I know she likes to be glamorous, but it was too much.  

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

The more I think about this (and I have been thinking about this entirely too much!) the more I have to REALLY agree with @catrox14.  Lady GonnaGetWhat'sComingToHerAndItAintGonnaBePretty said she used a potion and powerful spellwork to create the hallucination Sam had.  I think the potion made him susceptible, malleable - put him in a suggestible state of mind - if you will.  But the Powerful spell work definitely directed it.  In fact, when Sam fought his way out of the hallucination, Lady IWishICouldStabHer said she couldn't do the spell again because it would turn Sam's brain to mush.  (No such mention of the potion/drugs).  Which, to me, says that it must have been a powerful (okay, she already said it was) mind-control spell.  In other words, she didn't just insert herself into a pleasant fantasy that Sam's mind created on it's own to forget about the pain - she created the fantasy.  But not just by talking to him, I don't think.  I think the spell created the fantasy, or rather she created that specific hallucination using the spell.  I think then her talking to him was just to try to take advantage of his weakness at the moment.  

Also, interestingly, as I think DDD pointed out - Sam didn't really answer any of her questions.  Not the big, important ones she wanted answered.  He would redirect every time she asked something he didn't want to answer.  

But I don't think he looked away in shame when Lady Can'tGetAManUnlessSheDrugsHim asked if it was good for him.  I think it was disgust.  

Okay - just had to get this off my chest!  

Oh!  But speaking of chests - did anyone else notice that Sam did not have an anti-possession tattoo in the hallucination?  (And you know I only looked for research purposes.)  :)

 

Oh, I definitely noticed the lack of tattoo.  And chest hair.  But that's Jared's normal chest hair so I that could easily be them just deciding 'screw it, Sam has chest hair'.  But the tattoo is significant IMO and I NEED TO KNOW.

**squick warning for anyone not wanting to read about my thoughts on the hallucination**

On the potion/spell I think there was a lot of complexity to in addition to being powerful.
First, I think she messed with his memories.  Sam was not injured in the hallucination.  So either hallucination Sam may not have any knowledge of her torture.  When a hypnotist puts someone 'under', they become suggestible.  If you tell them to 'quack like a duck', they quack like a duck.  So I could see a potion/spell being something that made him highly suggestible and then she created the fantasy with her words.  For example, she could have told him, 'go back to when we first met and let me tell you what happened.  We started to argue, I put down the gun reluctantly and we started to talk.  After that bumpy start you agreed to help me understand how we could work together..... ' and she essentially continues on and provides him a verbal AU where he's not shot or tortured.  
Second, the potion/spell was clearly sexual in nature.  Sam was ready to get back to sex after just about 2 mins of talking at most.  Even at 18, that's not really possible.  So, I suspect there was some magical Viagra in the potion that made sex a priority to Sam.  

To me, this is a further indictment on how horrible she is. Not only did she roofie him and mind rape him, she presumed that Sam was highly motivated to cooperate due to sex.  That's just not Sam at all.  It's possibly why he kept fighting it.  Even in the hallucination, he just didn't want to answer her questions.

**end talk of hallucination**

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Anyway about the tattoo, it can be taken one of two ways imo, either Sam hasn't gotten his tat redone which is so stupid it's beyond words given how many times he's been possessed or it being absent was a subconscious clue to him that something wasn't right.

That's very interesting.  And adds another layer - kind of like what @SueB said above also.  If Lady, I'mTooTiredToMakeUpANameRightNow created the hallucination (which I think she did) she may not have even known about his tattoo.  Which then becomes a clue to 'something ain't right', like you said.  

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I know she likes to be glamorous, but it was too much. 

Frankly I worry for the actress, between the possibilities of eye infection, eye irritation or just discomfort with wearing what looks like pounds of makeup and the heaviest eyelashes ever to lash. I'm now convinced that that's why her original appearances were so over the top, she couldn't concentrate, she's adjusted now and I have grown to like her but fear the makeup dept will drive her away before we even get to see a Mary and Rowena meet scene. Someone should start a save Ruth's eyes campaign before it's too late.