S12.E02: Mamma Mia

[SueB]

Unfortunately, I agree that the writer's don't handle consent well.  I think what happened to Sam was unambiguously non-consensual and it was written that way.  But I also think there will be ZERO follow-up.  It's not like Sam is going to bring it up and I think Lady Toni will be out of the spotlight for a while. 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would agree with this more if Dean hadn't met Mary in the past when she was a young hunter. He spent several days maybe even a week with her and hunted with her. He hunted with her in Song Remains the Same and Dean remembers all that. He got a sense of who she was then. Dean said she was smart, funny, hopeful. She almost kicked his ass when they first met. It's really strange to me that hasn't come up yet or did it and I just don't remember?

Like Dean's memories should include that time not just the childhood, right?

Mary referenced them meeting while sitting on the bench when they first talked.  She didn't remember meeting and he said her memory was wiped.  (ETA: Or what Mystery Guest just said).

As for Dean's memories, the Mary he met in the past was a young woman ('Mom's a babe. And I'm going to Hell. Again.').  She wasn't acting motherly because she wasn't in that position yet.  She was barely pregnant the second time. I can see how those memories are easy to separate from "Mom" in his mind. 

Dean sitting on the kitchen floor was heartbreaking to me (like so many others).  She doesn't realize what her death actually meant to Dean.  Not yet.  She knows he became a hunter and had a rough and tumble life.  She doesn't know that HE raised Sam.  I wonder if that is going to come out.  I really hope it does.  While I totally understand her immediately thinking that she screwed Sam over by making the deal with Azazel, she doesn't know the full story. 

I think Dean telling her John changed was to soften the blow if she finds out more of their history. But I also felt (as others have stated) that he's concerned that he (Dean) is a disappointment to her.  So Dean, who was treated as a soldier by John, may feel his mother will treat him as a lost cause.  While Sam, because he wanted to get out, she may show more respect for.  I'm not sure.  I just know that he seemed so sad in the kitchen.  Like he wanted to cling to those photos because that life was HIS life and he didn't want it rejected. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean told Mary that he'd met her twice before by traveling back in time, but that her memory was wiped clean, so she wouldn't remember any of it.  He didn't specifically say that she almost took him out that first time. 

Okay thank you. I couldn't remember.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: Why didn't crowley use a sigil trap and holy oil to trap Lucifer. HE KNOWS THIS SHIT>  That is stupid ass writing.

I didn't even catch that.  Good point!

22 hours ago, SueB said:

Cas has ALL his powers back but no wings since all the angels (except Lucifer) lost their wings when they fell to earth.

I know the Bible story, but in the SPN verse, did Lucifer "fall" or was he ejected?  And would it matter as far as his wings?  I'm trying to figure out why his were full and fluffy and not molty/ragged like Cas' when he got his grace back.  If Lucifer "fell" or even possibly if he was "ejected" from Heaven, wouldn't his wings have been damaged in the process too?

20 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

SFX for Lucifer's Skeletor face rocked!

And here I was thinking the face and music were very "The Mummy"

9 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The BMOL definitely seem to have underestimated the American hunters.  We knew they would, because ultimately Sam and Dean need to prevail.  As annoying as LadyCan'tWaitTillSheGoesAway is, I have no doubt that she will become someone they end up protecting as the season goes on.  Her child makes her someone they can't just kill.  If they were going to do that, they'd never have introduced her son to the audience.  

Oh, I don't know.  I could still kill her.  ;)  And tbh, Dean killed Amy Pond pretty much in front of her son too.  Anyway, I think you are probably right re: the child, but in a big way, I hope not.  

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Just a random thought what if it's the opposite?  What if the BMOL have British Hunters under their thumbs? Like the Hunters are the servants and the BMOL are the ruling class?  Maybe the fear is that the British Hunters will rebel and want their freedom the way the American Hunters act independently? 

I remember the first Grandpa Winchester episode he viewed Hunters as beneath him. 

During the MindFuck! scene, didn't Lady I'dKillHerInASecond say that the English hunters were tools used by the BMOL - they didn't think just did as they were told?

1 hour ago, GirlyGeek said:

One thing I forgot to mention: It seemed to me like Dean and Sam were skirting around the issue of Sam getting back into hunting after Stanford.  Anyone else?

I also thought Dean skirted around the issue that it was him showing up at Stanford and talking Sam into looking for John with him that dragged Sam back into hunting.

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I suppose Dabb could have been referring to Lucifer's little romantic moment, but I don't think so.  That's why I said that I don't think the writers see this drug-induced sexual hallucination in as bad a light as most of us do.  I mean what guy doesn't want to have sex with a sexy blond??  That's the mindset I think they have.  There's nothing sexy or romantic about any of what happened, but I just don't see them treating it as any big deal.  Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

IMO, the way they handled the torture in these first two episodes was far more nuanced and layered than they ever have handled it. It wasn't just simple poking and prodding to make someone bleed, but was an actual attempt to break Sam down mentally. It mostly failed because Lady Toni vastly underestimated Sam's ability to cope with a mind screw and physical pain due to his past experience. But, Sam "broke" in that hallucination.

IMO, there was so much more care taken in how they wrote these scenes than I've seen from this show in a very long time. And, IMO, they took it very seriously and did not, in any way, present it as a sex fantasy.

I took the illusion sex scene as Sam's own mind driving the hallucination; trying to put him in a place of comfort, due to his body being in pain. That's why he kept insisting they "not only talk," IMO. I don't think Lady Toni created the sex in that illusion, but just went wherever Sam's mind took him. That doesn't make Lady Toni any less deplorable, in my mind, in fact I think it's worse than if she had physically raped Sam. And, IMO, it wasn't at all gratuitous to what was happening to Sam, but was important to his state of mind. 

Was it horrible, sure, but it should be horrible because torture is horrible. In the past they've almost glorified torture on this show, but, IMO, they did not glorify it nor take it lightly here. Whether there is after-effects, is doubtful considering the format of the show, but I don't need there to be any either. 

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know the Bible story, but in the SPN verse, did Lucifer "fall" or was he ejected?  And would it matter as far as his wings?  I'm trying to figure out why his were full and fluffy and not molty/ragged like Cas' when he got his grace back.  If Lucifer "fell" or even possibly if he was "ejected" from Heaven, wouldn't his wings have been damaged in the process too?

Lucifer was locked away in Hell by Michael, but didn't literally fall like the angels did when they were ejected from Heaven. 

Edited October 22, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I know the Bible story, but in the SPN verse, did Lucifer "fall" or was he ejected?  And would it matter as far as his wings?  I'm trying to figure out why his were full and fluffy and not molty/ragged like Cas' when he got his grace back.  If Lucifer "fell" or even possibly if he was "ejected" from Heaven, wouldn't his wings have been damaged in the process too?

In SPN verse, Michael cast Lucifer into Hell on God's behalf, which to me has always meant that Michael took Lucifer to Hell himself, like hand delivered via teleport or something so he always had his wings.  Also, I put archangels into a different category that it would take a lot more for them to actually lose their wings. That's all I got LOL

[trxr4kids]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

During the MindFuck! scene, didn't Lady I'dKillHerInASecond say that the English hunters were tools used by the BMOL - they didn't think just did as they were told?

That's how I remember it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Lucifer was locked away in Hell by Michael, but didn't literally fall like the angels did when they were ejected from Heaven. 

 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

In SPN verse, Michael cast Lucifer into Hell on God's behalf, which to me has always meant that Michael took Lucifer to Hell himself, like hand delivered via teleport or something so he always had his wings.  Also, I put archangels into a different category that it would take a lot more for them to actually lose their wings. That's all I got LOL

Kay....but thinking about this more (might be a little off topic - but then since it's about Lucifer, maybe not) Lucifer was the favorite, first born son, right?  Wasn't he the most powerful?  If that's so, how did Michael get him to Hell in the first place?  I mean, Michael must have had some way to over-power him/bind him, cause I can't see Lucifer going willingly.  In which case, imo, it would make sense that his wings were 'clipped' so to speak.  But that's just my headcannon.  :)

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Kay....but thinking about this more (might be a little off topic - but then since it's about Lucifer, maybe not) Lucifer was the favorite, first born son, right?  Wasn't he the most powerful?  If that's so, how did Michael get him to Hell in the first place?  I mean, Michael must have had some way to over-power him/bind him, cause I can't see Lucifer going willingly.  In which case, imo, it would make sense that his wings were 'clipped' so to speak.  But that's just my headcannon.  :)

I don't think Lucifer was more powerful than Michael. In fact, I think they were equally as powerful. God was said to have favored Lucifer until he disappointed God, but I assumed it wasn't just Micheal who cast Lucifer into Hell, but probably Michael led the troops so is the only one name-dropped. I'm not sure it was ever stated as such on the show, but that's my interpretation anyway.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I took the illusion sex scene as Sam's own mind driving the hallucination; trying to put him in a place of comfort, due to his body being in pain. That's why he kept insisting they not "only talk," IMO. I don't think Lady Toni create

I see completely opposite.

Why would Sam's mind take him to having sex with the person torturing him over any other person he had pleasant sexual experiences with like Jessica or even Amelia, other than masochism?  

I think the drug targeted the sexual centers of this brain or even stimulated his sex hormones engaging that desire part. Lady GoRightToHell inserted herself into his hallucination by talking to him the entire time, kind of  like when you fall asleep with the TV on and the voices and faces work their way into your brain and your dreams.

[Morrigan2575]

42 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

During the MindFuck! scene, didn't Lady I'dKillHerInASecond say that the English hunters were tools used by the BMOL - they didn't think just did as they were told?

Did she? I have to be honest i was so annoyed/repulsed by that scene that i kind of blacked it all out.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would Sam's mind take him to having sex with the person torturing him over any other person he had pleasant sexual experiences with like Jessica or even Amelia, other than masochism?  

I think the drug targeted the sexual centers of this brain or even stimulated his sex hormones engaging that desire part. Lady GoRightToHell inserted herself into his hallucination by talking to him the entire time, kind of  like when you fall asleep with the TV on and the voices and faces work their way into your brain and your dreams.

It is exactly like falling asleep with the TV on and things getting mixed up in your brain. That's why it's called a hallucination; it's not real, but your mind playing tricks on you. Just like when he had the dream about Bela, it didn't mean he was actually hot for Bela, but just that he and Dean had been talking about her before he fell asleep and she was present in his mind when he started to have the sex dream. 

IMO, Sam's brain was trying to make him feel pleasure in place of pain and he manifested Lady Toni in the hallucination because she happened to be talking to him right then. Like I said, I think it's far worse than if she had physically raped him because, IMO, sex can never be the same for him now. Not that he wasn't already pretty messed up about sex, though. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Kay....but thinking about this more (might be a little off topic - but then since it's about Lucifer, maybe not) Lucifer was the favorite, first born son, right?  Wasn't he the most powerful?  If that's so, how did Michael get him to Hell in the first place?  I mean, Michael must have had some way to over-power him/bind him, cause I can't see Lucifer going willingly.  In which case, imo, it would make sense that his wings were 'clipped' so to speak.  But that's just my headcannon.  

Michael was the first born and was older and  stronger than Lucifer. He more or less raised Lucifer and loved him. Michael became the leader of Heaven and lead the angel armies. So yeah I think he over powered him but if he couldn't he probably had some angels help him.  I don't think he would have clipped his wings after the first casting into Hell, figuring he would not be in rebellion after being in Hell. I think it was only after Lucifer started making demons that Chuck put Lucifer in the Cage. Then Michael decided to let Lucifer go free so he could fight him. 

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And here I was thinking the face and music were very "The Mummy"

Oh dude! I like that much better!

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It is exactly like falling asleep with the TV on and things getting mixed up in your brain. That's why it's called a hallucination; it's not real, but your mind playing tricks on you. Just like when he had the dream about Bela, it didn't mean he was actually hot for Bela, but just that he and Dean had been talking about her before he fell asleep and she was present in his mind when he started to have the sex dream. 

It's not Sam having  a sex dream by happenstance like he did with Bela.

I'm saying that Lady FuckOffandDie controlled it by talking to him. She was guiding him to hallucinate sex with her via the drug cocktail. Her goal was to make him think she was a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know. She got a side of his humiliation because he was "fantasizing" about his torturer. That's why she got in his face and said "was it good for you" and he reacted with some shame because she knew he saw her.

It's fucking diabolical and horrific.

Edited October 22, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not Sam having  a sex dream by happenstance like he did with Bela.

I'm saying that Lady FuckOffandDie controlled it by talking to him. She was guiding him to hallucinate sex with her via the drug cocktail. Her goal was to make him think she was a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know. She got a side of his humiliation because he was "fantasizing" about his torturer. That's why she got in his face and said "was it good for you" and he reacted with some shame because she knew he saw her.

It's fucking diabolical and horrific.

That was my interpretation of it as well. 

[ParadoxLost]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I didn't think the show was trying to tell me it was a sex fantasy. I think the show was showing and telling it was messed up. I'm not sure where the idea had come from that the show is condoning what Lady Toni did. 

I agree with you on this.  And I don't think they are just ignoring the impact on Sam either.

I thought it was fairly obvious at the end that Sam has just been weighed down by accumulation of the trauma being a hunter has inflicted on him.  When Mary asks him about how he got out but he's still there, Sam's reaction was one of someone who had come to accept that this was all his life was going to be.  He has his family; but outside of that his life is bleak and he can't see any other future or any other possibilities anymore.  Contrasted against the Sam who was a college student who broke away from John thinking there was something else out there for him its tragic.

I think its unrealistic to have a big, wordy reaction to a couple days of torture and violation when reflecting on the series and the number of time Sam or Dean have been dead, tortured in hell, tortured in the cage, returned from the dead without a soul, thought their brother was dead, had their girlfriend die, their friends die, their father die, their surrogate father die and so on...

A quiet scene where a numb, contemplative Sam stairs at a ceiling fan worked fine for me.

On the other hand, it made no sense that Dean and Mary both failed to kill Lady Toni when they had perfectly good self defense opportunities and Sam had been clearly tortured by her for a couple days.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not Sam having  a sex dream by happenstance like he did with Bela.

I'm saying that Lady FuckOffandDie controlled it by talking to him. She was guiding him to hallucinate sex with her via the drug cocktail. Her goal was to make him think she was a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know. She got a side of his humiliation because he was "fantasizing" about his torturer. That's why she got in his face and said "was it good for you" and he reacted with some shame. 

It's fucking diabolical and horrific.

I understand exactly what you're saying, I'm just saying that's not how it appeared to play out, IMO. I agree she was wanted him in a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know, but, IMO, Sam's mind created the safe place and the spell just made it feel real. It was Sam who kept insisting they have sex while she was actually trying to divert him from it. IMO, it was obvious that Sam was trying with all his might to feel something other than pain. That in no way is saying that Sam consented here or that he had any actual control, but the illusion of safety was created from Sam, IMO. That's the sad fact about this sort of violation, your body--or in this case, your mind--can betray you. That's what makes it torture and so horrific, IMO. 

And, I was not in any way saying Sam was having a happenstance sex dream but was using the dream with Bela as an example of how your mind can play tricks on you and have you imagine doing things with someone you dislike or even hate. 

Edited October 22, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I really love Mary and the boys.  I think be careful what you wish for is being shown quite well.  Also for me it feels like Sam and Mary uniting on one issue, both wanting out of hunting and it leaves Dean as the odd man out.  Watching his memories being destroyed is also very sad.  Sam doesn't have anything to lose so for him it is an up side.

21 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I thought it was fairly obvious at the end that Sam has just been weighed down by accumulation of the trauma being a hunter has inflicted on him.  When Mary asks him about how he got out but he's still there, Sam's reaction was one of someone who had come to accept that this was all his life was going to be.  He has his family; but outside of that his life is bleak and he can't see any other future or any other possibilities anymore.  Contrasted against the Sam who was a college student who broke away from John thinking there was something else out there for him its tragic.

No, no, no... I mean yes, Mary and Sam are bonding over the history of that idea, but I personally do not want to see this again for Sam. Sam stated unequivocally at the end of season 10 to Charlie that hunting is what he wants to do. It's how he wants to make a difference, and it's what he sees himself doing in the future. And he wants to hunt with Dean. For me this was a proper reset to Sam from late season 6 and season 7 who had concluded the same thing and was then regressed by Carver in season 8 into that awful and awkward Amelia story - which for me just proved that Sam in a "normal" life = Awkward. I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?) Really show?

And if the trauma of getting his wall broken and taking on over 100 years of hell memories wasn't enough to get him off of hunting - and in fact made him gravitate towards it to keep himself sane - then I somehow can't see what happened to Sam here would be enough to make him want to give it up again.

We know Sam is not going to stop hunting, so I don't want the show to have Sam waffling yet again on this.  In my opinion Sam moved past wanting a "normal" life a long long time ago, and then after that fall off the wagon in season 8, went right back to putting it in the past. I don't really want to revisit it again myself, and if the show does, then I would ask them to please make up their mind about what Sam wants very quickly and stick with it please... and make it organic to Sam's character and not just introduce it as a platform for angst, conflict, or a plot point. It made little sense to me in season 8, and after season 10 and with Dean alive, it would especially make little sense to me now without any kind of explanation.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

understand exactly what you're saying, I'm just saying that's not how it appeared to play out, IMO. I agree she was wanted him in a safe place so he would tell her what she wanted to know, but, IMO, Sam's mind created the safe place and the spell just made it feel real. It was Sam who kept insisting they have sex while she was actually trying to divert him from it. IMO, it was obvious that Sam was trying with all his might to feel something other than pain. That in no way is saying that Sam consented here or that he had any actual control, but the illusion of safety was created from Sam, IMO. That's the sad fact about this sort of violation, your body--or in this case, your mind--can betray you. That's what makes it so horrific, IMO. 

 

IMO, him wanting to keep having sex was him fighting against the spell and the drugs on some level; that somewhere his rational/hunter mind realized this wasn't right. He fought through the first spell to fake her out with the suicide thing, after all. Why couldn't he be fighting off this one as well but with less success because sexual pleasure keeps him in that "happy place". IMO, having sex keeps him from thinking about anything else so he doesn't give the names. Where she thought sex would make him more malleable so he would talk.

IMO, Sam feeling betrayed by his own body would happen without him getting there on his own. 

Ultimately, the only way we'll know is if the show actually has Sam talk about his experience but even then, he might think this was all on his own. I just don't think it was. Not in my interpretation.

ETA: She made the mistake in thinking that by giving him pleasure she would get the info.

Edited October 22, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not-so-marvy-Marv sent Cass back to earth, but that doesn't mean his wings weren't destroyed in the process. Whether we saw it or not, I believe it's been stated Cass--and the other angels, too--no longer have wings and that's why they can't fly, er...um...teleport.

The angels didn't lose their wings when they fell. The wings were burned but they didn't lose them in entirely. Ezekiel!Sam unfurled his tattered wings in s9 before he smote the demons in that diner. The remaining wings aren't strong enough for them to fly/teleport.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

As for Dean's memories, the Mary he met in the past was a young woman ('Mom's a babe. And I'm going to Hell. Again.').  She wasn't acting motherly because she wasn't in that position yet.  She was barely pregnant the second time. I can see how those memories are easy to separate from "Mom" in his mind. 

I agree. Even for the brief period when young!Mary (and young!John?) knew who Sam and Dean were, they weren't relating as parent/child -- they couldn't, because Sam and Dean weren't their sons yet! This is different. This is like "playing for keeps."

Also, those weren't exactly happy trips. At best, those memories have got to be bittersweet even for Dean. They were terrible times for John and especially for Mary. And when Mary said that she wouldn't want her kids to grow up to be hunters, that had to break Dean's heart. I definitely think him skirting his involvement in Sam leaving Stanford is at least partly because he knows she felt/feels like that. (And she doesn't actually know that he knows that, right? She knows that he knows she wanted to give it up, but that's all?)

2 hours ago, SueB said:

She doesn't know that HE raised Sam.  I wonder if that is going to come out.  I really hope it does.

Mary's sharp, and I think she's going to piece together a lot on her own. She noticed when Dean said that John disappeared and that he and Sam had only ever had each other. She's got the journal now, too, and imo Sam's right that that's going to fill in a lot of blanks. Once she gets the lay of the land, I think she's liable to just outright ask a lot of questions, too.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I think Dean telling her John changed was to soften the blow if she finds out more of their history. But I also felt (as others have stated) that he's concerned that he (Dean) is a disappointment to her.  So Dean, who was treated as a soldier by John, may feel his mother will treat him as a lost cause.  While Sam, because he wanted to get out, she may show more respect for.  I'm not sure.  I just know that he seemed so sad in the kitchen.  Like he wanted to cling to those photos because that life was HIS life and he didn't want it rejected. 

I think that Dean also wanted to talk Sam up a little, and reassure Mary that she hadn't ruined his life (by letting her know that her deal with YED hadn't kept Sam from getting into Stanford, from having the choice to leave "the life" if he wanted), because she'd said that she was scared to face Sam.

Presumably, Dean doesn't want her to think poorly of him, so he wasn't going to go into detail about his involvement in Sam ultimately leaving Stanford. I do think he purposefully skirted his own involvement and YED's involvement in that, just like he purposefully skirted the uglier details surrounding John's death.

I guess my basic assumption is that Dean would be worried about what Mary thinks of him. Even though he presumably has feelings toward Mary as his mother, it's suddenly disconcertingly obvious that they have very little actual shared history, which I would think would make those feelings suddenly feel pretty fake and flimsy. That's got to hurt. I would think he'd be worried that her feelings toward him seem fake and flimsy all of a sudden, too. They've also got to act like a family somehow, while at the same time Dean has to be fairly careful to behave nothing like how he did in the actual family he grew up in. I mean, Mary obviously wouldn't have wanted their family to have lived the way they did, so it's not like he can walk around epitomizing that kind of life now. And I would guess that Dean would be afraid of making his "actual" family look bad or say/do anything that's disloyal to them, too -- which means trying to gloss over a lot of stuff that Mary probably would want to know and will probably discover soon in any case. That breeds alienation.

Imo all that is less of a problem for Sam, because like I said, he and Mary are starting from more of a blank slate. Disappointment on either side isn't as big of a deal with Sam, imo, because she never knew him well enough to develop expectations for him, and he doesn't know enough (about having a mother at all) to have any real expectations for her, either. He can't even really be afraid of losing her yet, because he doesn't even know what it's like to have her in his life (yet).

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me this was a proper reset to Sam from late season 6 and season 7 who had concluded the same thing and was then regressed by Carver in season 8 into that awful and awkward Amelia story - which for me just proved that Sam in a "normal" life = Awkward. I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?) Really show?

Hey, I was working as a building super and waitress for a couple years out in LA, and I made more money doing that than I did managing a restaurant back here in DC. I technically might not even make as much money now as an accountant, even though this job comes with dental insurance and business cards and everything ;) I had about a million problems with that Amelia storyline, but that was one of the few times in the show's history when the finances at least sorta/kinda checked out. And yes, now that I'm writing this, I am seeing the irony that it's gotta be the girl in accounting who pulls this one random line about pay expectations out of your whole thoughtful post and goes on at length about it. Hahaha sorry, AwesomO.

[AwesomO4000]

Hee, @rue721.

Perhaps I should have emphasized a word or two there... My meaning of that statement was less: I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?) and more: I mean Sam as a handyman (and making enough money to live on that way?), because if it was Dean, for example, then sure, absolutely... but we're talking about Sam here, and the show wanted me to believe he could actually fix various types of mechanical things competently enough to make money rather than create annoyed and complaining tenants?  Me = not buying it. Now Sam being a groundskeeper*, general laborer, construction? Then sure I'd buy any of those things easily** but a handyman, fixing multiple mechanical, potentially electrical things... nope, I'm not buying it. Heh.

* This one especially.  Hubby and I once asked a neighbor who they had taking care of their yard and had the company guy come over to take a look at our yard and give an estimate to see if we wanted to use them also. Needless to say, we should've known things probably weren't going to happen when the yard guy pulled into our driveway in a Hummer. And after learning the monthly estimate for mowing our small lawn and doing a little edging and such... let's just say that hubby decided mowing the lawn himself didn't sound so bad anymore. Hee.

** And also have a little imagination, Show. Just because mechanical stuff is Dean's thing doesn't mean Sam has to do something similar, especially something he has no training in and hasn't been shown to have much natural talent in before at all. Why not something different? Give Sam some kind of talent or interest of his own, maybe. Why couldn't we see Sam enjoying working with plants or trees? Or building things with his hands? Hell, he could've been a dog walker or a pet sitter. Sam loves dogs. Any of those things I would believe.

As an aside, Hubby and I have a class teaching insect identification and such to pest management guys... If you're willing to work and potentially get a little dirty at times, pest management is a very good way to make a living. Even with only a high school education, a technician can make around $35,000 a year or so or more (on average, it's closer to $40,000 in our area). After two years experience and getting a license, he or she can own their own company and potentially make even more. Many companies are willing to hire part time and such, too - as with mothers who only want to work during their kids' school day for example. And those willing to do related work such as wildlife pest management - and that takes a special breed as it's even trickier and potentially dangerous - can make even more. So definitely, there are jobs like this to be had, for sure. Sam as a handyman though... for me nope, nope, nope. Heh.

Edited October 22, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

The term romance can mean a story that's about something heroic or adventurous. When you're invited to return to the romance of the Old West, for example, they're not talking about Laura Ingalls being courted by Almanzo Wilder.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

LOL.  Dean is SO much like his mom.  I think it's cute how we didn't even know it and always assumed he was like John.  That "nice chat" from Mary, was SO Dean.  

I never thought Dean was like John. Back in Season 1 I felt that John and Sam clashed because they were so alike. Just because they wanted different things was secondary to the way they processed them and went about it. Even Dean pointed it out in in an ep down the line. Now, we didn`t get a lot of material back then with Mary but as Dean played the role of peacekeeper/middle man/ mother in his family growing up, I also figured if he was like anyone, he was like her. Those last two episodes were not a surprise to me on this account.

It`s also a bit narratively convenient that kids can be slotted into "and so much like so and so". I have some things from my mom and maybe some things from my dad but I don`t particularly take after either of them. Neither after my grandparents. Only in fiction does personality get genetically transferred so neatly. Doesn`t bother me but it always amuses me somewhat.

 

Quote

Presumably, Dean doesn't want her to think poorly of him, so he wasn't going to go into detail about his involvement in Sam ultimately leaving Stanford. 

Didn`t get the impression that Dean didn`t get into specifics on how Sam came back to hunting initially because he wanted to not have Mary think badly of him. At least hopefully not. It was always supreme bullshit that Dean "dragged Sam back into hunting". What, since when is Dean the YED? Dean came to ask for help and Sam agreed - he was a big boy even back then - for one weekend. He came back to hunting only because Jess got killed. If asking a family member for help in looking for another family member is such a terrible sin and Mary would actually criticize Dean for it, she can go die in a fire. Again. Since I don`t think Mary is so horrible, I do not believe she would have reacted that way. This is one bullshit insecurity and guilt trip I hope Dean got over.

As for Dean in general fearing his Mom`s disappointment, I do believe that is valid because she made it clear that this isn`t the life she wanted them to have. Now she is here and it`s the only life he can present her. Though I didn`t get the vibe Mary resented them for that but just felt sad about it. Hopefully Mary can acknowledge down the line that while she is sad, she is also proud. 

And I certainly hope she reads the diary. I get why she didn`t yet. She is not ready but her children didn`t have the luxury not to live it, at a certain point she can`t have the luxury anymore not to know it. Of course I do hope Dean gets a nice word then from her for trying to do her job. No fault of her own she couldn`t do it but it was John who should have done in her place, not Dean. 

Edited October 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

8 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

On the other hand, it made no sense that Dean and Mary both failed to kill Lady Toni when they had perfectly good self defense opportunities and Sam had been clearly tortured by her for a couple days.

It's always been Dean's policy not to kill humans, unless he has no other option.  They had her outnumbered and overpowered.  Plus, I suspect they had some questions of their own that were subverted by the other guy showing up.

[mertensia]

20 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

It's always been Dean's policy not to kill humans, unless he has no other option.  They had her outnumbered and overpowered.  Plus, I suspect they had some questions of their own that were subverted by the other guy showing up.

Yeah, they would have been fools not to have questioned her...or maybe Cas could have read her mind or something.

Speaking of...wouldn't they find it weird that an angel was hanging around and clearly friends with Sam and Dean? I mean, I'd be hella curious if I were one of the Brits.

20 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

It's always been Dean's policy not to kill humans, unless he has no other option.  They had her outnumbered and overpowered.  Plus, I suspect they had some questions of their own that were subverted by the other guy showing up.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

The term romance can mean a story that's about something heroic or adventurous. When you're invited to return to the romance of the Old West, for example, they're not talking about Laura Ingalls being courted by Almanzo Wilder.

And, it can also be a longing for the past. 

[Aeryn13]

I think Dabb`s tweet wasn`t that deep and yeah, he did refer to the literal mindfuck scene. It doesn`t really shock or surprise me because so many times the writers did something, the reactions to it online were not favourable and then afterwards the writers were like "huh, that is surprising". They probably thought the dogfucking with the slavery imagery was an epic romance for the ages. To me, what happened in this ep was in the same vein. I doubt either the nepotism duo nor Dabb nor anyone else of the writers thought it was a particularly big deal. And it`s not even just this show, writers being tone-deaf is very common across the board. 

In fact, I wouldn`t surprised if they wrote this going, "hey, do you think people will think Sam/Lady Deadeyes have this delicious hot-bad-wrong thing and will kinda root for them to hate-bang down the line when they see this little snippet?"  "yeah, I mean, why not, right?"  

Which to be fair, I did see happen with Bela. And in terms of the Winchesters working with previous enemies or opponents, there is Crowley, there was recently Cole, noone batted an eye that Dean had to even talk to Metatron, Sam got to play referee with Lucifer in the bunker. 

Edited October 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I never thought Dean was like John. Back in Season 1 I felt that John and Sam clashed because they were so alike.

Speaking only from my own experience; growing up I got along much better with my father than my mother.  My mother always said it was because I was "so like your father".   (And while I'm like my mother in some ways, I am far more like my father in temperament.)  So there's that.

I also don't think in general that people, even unrelated people, tend to clash because they are alike.  IMO, the worst personality clashes happen between opposites.   (Despite what Lady ToniMustDie! said about opposites attracting.  Ask most psychologists.)  When people are alike, they understand how each other's thought processes work.  Understanding how another person thinks is key, imo, to communicating well and in turn, key to avoiding clashes.  When two people think fundamentally differently, it is harder for them to communicate and therefore are more likely to clash.  

So if Sam and John had a history of clashing, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that their personalities were fundamentally different.  And since Dean and John seemed to get along so well, other than Dean simply being a good boy and going along to get along, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that John and Dean were far more alike than Sam and John.  Ymmv of course.  

Edited October 22, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
present tense, not past

[mertensia]

You know, Lady Toni strikes me as woefully unimaginative.  Just imagine if she'd forced Sam to, say, watch non-stop mime acts. Twelve hours of more mimes? He'd be blabbing out his life story 

[Bessie]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was always supreme bullshit that Dean "dragged Sam back into hunting". What, since when is Dean the YED? Dean came to ask for help and Sam agreed - he was a big boy even back then - for one weekend. He came back to hunting only because Jess got killed. 

I never really understood the idea that somehow Dean dragged Sam back into hunting. I get that Dean might think that, but, well he's Dean.  I thought he didn't talk much about Sam's re entry into the hunting world because it was a direct result of YED's actions, which would make Mary feel horrible. 

I also think the writers need to take care with the childhood memories they invest Dean with. He was basically a baby too when Mary died. So I hope they don't make his memories too unbelievable.  Remembering her cooking is a stretch, for me, but I can chalk that up to a transference from John.  And it was so bittersweet I'm willing to go along with it. 

I do hope there is some insight into the boys' childhood.  I don't think Dean raised Sam. I think he took care of him at times and a lot more than an older sibling normally would, but all in all, I get the impression that John raised them, for better or worse. But I'd love to hear what the three winchesters think about it. I'm open to my impressions being completely wrong!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Remembering her cooking is a stretch, for me, but I can chalk that up to a transference from John.

I thought that was maybe a reference to one of the times they went back to the past?  When they showed up at their house when the angels were after Mary?  Maybe someone with a better memory of all the eps can clear that up.  

This is probably very trivial - especially compared to the more meaningful conversations happening about the episode - but Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.  Her and John were married for how long?  At least 6 years, right?  Dean was 4 when she died, and he was born a few years after they married.   Anyway, late 70's early 80's and John was working as a mechanic.  No mention of Mary having a job outside the house - and the Show is basically saying in all of 6-7+ years of marriage Mary never cooked once?  It was all take out?  Back then?  I don't buy it.  

Also: She shopped The Pig!  (Piggly Wiggly)  I thought that was just a Southern thing, so I had to look it up.  As of 2014, there were no Pigs in Kansas.  :(  I guess there could have been back then and they closed since.  So many have.  There are Pigs in Missouri and Oklahoma.  

[Bessie]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought that was maybe a reference to one of the times they went back to the past?  When they showed up at their house when the angels were after Mary?

That makes a lot more sense than Dean remembering his mother's cooking from the age of four or five. I bet you're right!

Edited October 22, 2016 by Bessie

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Also: She shopped The Pig!  (Piggly Wiggly)  I thought that was just a Southern thing, so I had to look it up.  As of 2014, there were no Pigs in Kansas.  :(  I guess there could have been back then and they closed since.  So many have.  There are Pigs in Missouri and Oklahoma.  

I grew up in the Northwest and apparently there were Piggly Wigglies all over Oregon in the '60s and '70s. I read a book a few years ago and had to go ask some elderly folks a lot of questions because I didn't think this could be true, but apparently it was. The Piggly Wigglies are gone now and have been since the mid-'80s. So, I can buy there was one in Kansas in the '70s, but I highly doubt the writers did their research on this.

33 minutes ago, Bessie said:

That makes a lot more sense than Dean remembering his mother's cooking from the age of four or five. I bet you're right!

Oh, I don't know, I think it makes sense in the sense that Dean didn't really remember it. I think he could remember a time when they were all together as a family and there just happened to be meatloaf and over the years he's built it up in his head to be the best meatloaf he's ever had.  That seems actually very reasonable to me within the context of the episode.

Edited October 22, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know, I think it makes sense in the sense that Dean didn't really remember it. I think he could remember having a time when they were all together and a family and there just happened to be meatloaf and over the years he's built it up in his head to be the best meatloaf he's ever had.  That seems actually very reasonable to me within the context of the episode.

That works too. I just figured that John, at some point, mentioned Mary's delicious meatloaf and Dean glommed onto that and it became his memory.

[bearcatfan]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Only in fiction does personality get genetically transferred so neatly.

Never say never. My youngest son is almost exactly like his father. The only thing he gets from me is my love of sports. Otherwise, his personality is all his dad. They did clash, just like John and Sam. I believe it's because my husband saw his own faults in my son and tried to correct them. It didn't work well.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for Dean in general fearing his Mom`s disappointment, I do believe that is valid because she made it clear that this isn`t the life she wanted them to have. Now she is here and it`s the only life he can present her. Though I didn`t get the vibe Mary resented them for that but just felt sad about it. Hopefully Mary can acknowledge down the line that while she is sad, she is also proud.

I agree with this. I think that Dean fears disappointing her but I doubt she would be disappointed. In fact, my guess is that she will feel guilty because she knows she set everything in motion. I think she will be proud of Dean for how he took care of Sam. While his fear is understandable (because don't most children fear disappointing their parents) I sincerely doubt would ever be disappointed in either of her children.

[DittyDotDot]

58 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Speaking only from my own experience; growing up I got along much better with my father than my mother.  My mother always said it was because I was "so like your father".   (And while I'm like my mother in some ways, I am far more like my father in temperament.)  So there's that.

I also don't think in general that people, even unrelated people, tend to clash because they are alike.  IMO, the worst personality clashes happen between opposites.   (Despite what Lady ToniMustDie! said about opposites attracting.  Ask most psychologists.)  When people are alike, they understand how each other's thought processes work.  Understanding how another person thinks is key, imo, to communicating well and in turn, key to avoiding clashes.  When two people think fundamentally differently, it is harder for them to communicate and therefore are more likely to clash.  

So if Sam and John had a history of clashing, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that their personalities were fundamentally different.  And since Dean and John seemed to get along so well, other than Dean simply being a good boy and going along to get along, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that John and Dean were far more alike than Sam and John.  Ymmv of course.  

I think it all depends on the personality types at play. I think Dean tried to act like John because he he wanted to be more like John when he was a kid. And, I think Sam tried to act the opposite of John simply because he was afraid he might be more like John than he was. So, of course Sam is going to clash with John while Dean isn't. I think both Sam and Dean have traits from both parents, but neither is John or Mary.   

[trxr4kids]

47 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is probably very trivial - especially compared to the more meaningful conversations happening about the episode - but Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.  Her and John were married for how long?  At least 6 years, right?  Dean was 4 when she died, and he was born a few years after they married.   Anyway, late 70's early 80's and John was working as a mechanic.  No mention of Mary having a job outside the house - and the Show is basically saying in all of 6-7+ years of marriage Mary never cooked once?  It was all take out?  Back then?  I don't buy it.

It is weird because I think they got married pretty much right after she made the deal in 73, she died in 83. Are we actually supposed to believe she can't cook at all. When Dean went back in 73 he had that awkward family dinner that Deanna cooked, surely she taught Mary how and when he and Sam showed up in 78 Mary tried to get rid of them by saying dinner was almost ready iIrc. Also since she was so desperate for a normal life it seems to me she would've wanted to be her ideal of normal, which given the time period cooking and baking would've definitely been part of. Maybe the line should have been I can't cook instead of I don't cook, like she really tried but just sucked at it and since she was determined to be normal she just faked it, hiding the evidence of where the food came from and putting it in her own dishes. Actually that sorta makes me laugh thinking of her doing that, it would certainly give her something in common with both brothers in that their attempts at normal have mixed results at best. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

It is weird because I think they got married pretty much right after she made the deal in 73, she died in 83. Are we actually supposed to believe she can't cook at all. When Dean went back in 73 he had that awkward family dinner that Deanna cooked, surely she taught Mary how and when he and Sam showed up in 78 Mary tried to get rid of them by saying dinner was almost ready iIrc. Also since she was so desperate for a normal life it seems to me she would've wanted to be her ideal of normal, which given the time period cooking and baking would've definitely been part of. Maybe the line should have been I can't cook instead of I don't cook, like she really tried but just sucked at it and since she was determined to be normal she just faked it, hiding the evidence of where the food came from and putting it in her own dishes. Actually that sorta makes me laugh thinking of her doing that, it would certainly give her something in common with both brothers in that their attempts at normal have mixed results at best. 

I don't know, it's probably a retcon, but I think it was just the show establishing that Mary's not going to be hanging around the bunker cooking and cleaning for Sam and Dean. So, I choose to take it as Mary can cook, she just doesn't enjoy it and doesn't do it unless she has to.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, it's probably a retcon, but I think it was just the show establishing that Mary's not going to be hanging around the bunker cooking and cleaning for Sam and Dean. So, I choose to take it as Mary can cook, she just doesn't enjoy it and doesn't do it unless she has to.

That's probably what it is/was.  And I'm okay with that - as that was some of the fears re: Mary's return.  It just seemed an odd/awkward choice of wording to me.  Maybe would have been better (for me) if she'd said, "I would have cooked, but I really don't like to."

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So if Sam and John had a history of clashing, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that their personalities were fundamentally different. 

The problem was that they wanted different things. If Sam had been all onboard in a "horray, hunting and revenge for Mary" way, their alikeness would most likely have lead them to get along. Though maybe in the end it would have been impossible for John to get along with anyone too much like him. But if two people are alike in being insanely goal-oriented yet have diametrically opposed goals, game over before it even started.

Dean played the subservient role and the peacekeeper because if people clash three-way, they will never get anything done. He got a lot of grief in Season 1 about being basically John`s brainless automaton who didn`t have a mind of his own but what do people think would have happened if Dean had been just as rebellious as Sam growing up? That family unit would have imploded years ago. 

Despite Dean trying to emulate John so hard, that was the prime reason why I never thought they were alike. John wasn`t capable of compromise, of "submitting" to another like that in the interest of keeping the unit going. Even the bits we saw when the brothers were adults in Season 1 and we saw them with John, John just could not do it. It was not in him. Dean could have worn ten of his jackets, listened to his music and renamed himself John and I still would have believed they were as alike as a fish and a bird.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

Oh JFC. I rewatched the episode and I didn't even catch this the first time around.

When Crowley is trying to get Rowena to help him capture Lucifer these things were said.

1)Crowley: He has an aura. Supreme evil. (Lucifer doesn't have an aura. He's an archangel. AFAIK auras aren't part of the mythology of archangels.  But whatever. It's Crowley saying it.

but this: 

2) Rowena: "In any case, Lucifer can't be sent back to the cage while he's in a vessel."

SINCE WHEN!?? That was kind of the big reason Sam was Lucifer's chosen vessel!  The only reason I can see for this is to take Sam off the table permanently as a vessel, and has the side effect of taking Dean off the table as ever being Michael's vessel because there is no reason now, should Michael have ever escaped. Also no, a spell via witch is NOT THE ONLY WAY to put Lucifer back in the Cage. The Horsemans Rings? Remember those?  No? Or they do and are still Janice in Accounting and do not give a fuck (John Oliver reference).

I get wanting to do new things and moving in a different direction. They should! The thing is if you're gonna blow up arguably one of the biggest pieces of the mythology and legacy of this show at least fucking  EXPLAIN it! WHY can't he be put back in a vessel? WTF?  It's cheap and lazy and hacky to not offer an explanation.  I'm so tired of this from Buck-Lemming. But Singer and Dabb are the showrunners so good job, dudes. (Sigh)

Edited October 22, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

If I`m generous, I can fanwank that he can`t be sent to the cage in a vessel via any other method than opening the cage and throwing him in. What Rowena seems to do is less opening the cage wholesale like with 66 seals but more transfering the prisoner out but the cage itself stays closed during the entire process. So if you open it, you can throw in all kinds of shit, including vessels, if you just transfer him in or out, it`s vessel-free.

Yeah, it`s flimsy but it`s still more thought given into it than the writers did.

[trxr4kids]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

, but I think it was just the show establishing that Mary's not going to be hanging around the bunker cooking and cleaning for Sam and Dean

I'm sure that's the case but I like my new headcannon better, lol. I think I must have seen something or read something where a person was pretending they had cooked doing things like sprinkling some flour around, hiding the carry out containers, etc.

 

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But if two people are alike in being insanely goal-oriented yet have diametrically opposed goals, game over before it even started.

That's exactly how I saw John and Sam's relationship.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So if Sam and John had a history of clashing, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that their personalities were fundamentally different.  And since Dean and John seemed to get along so well, other than Dean simply being a good boy and going along to get along, I think it is entirely reasonable for one to presume that John and Dean were far more alike than Sam and John.  Ymmv of course.  

I think it's reasonable, but imo some people are just easier to get along with than others. Some people are just more high strung and difficult, and some people are just more laid back and agreeable.

John seems to me to have been relatively difficult to get along with, so I think it's natural he clashed with his kid(s). Imo Dean was especially agreeable with him so they managed to get along pretty well despite that, though.

I don't think that it's similarity in personality that made John and Sam clash, I think it's dissimilarity in personality that made it possible for John and Dean to get along.

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

You know, Lady Toni strikes me as woefully unimaginative.  Just imagine if she'd forced Sam to, say, watch non-stop mime acts. Twelve hours of more mimes? He'd be blabbing out his life story 

Honestly, maybe she was TOO imaginative. What if she'd just emailed Sam saying that she's a BMOL and could use some help/information from the US branch? I think Sam would have been pretty accommodating.

But once she made it adversarial, there was no way that Sam was going to help her. It was a dumb move. Especially for someone raising a young child -- doesn't everybody who has taken care of a two year old know that if you start a battle of wills like that, it's only going to end in tears? ;)

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

I also think the writers need to take care with the childhood memories they invest Dean with. He was basically a baby too when Mary died. So I hope they don't make his memories too unbelievable.  Remembering her cooking is a stretch, for me, but I can chalk that up to a transference from John.  And it was so bittersweet I'm willing to go along with it. 

I don't think it's unusual that he remembered liking "her" meatloaf. I have lots of food memories from that age and earlier. Butter sandwiches and collard greens at daycare, chicken livers and rice at home, one time when we ate spaghetti outside, one other time when we ate mac & cheese on the living room floor, my third birthday at McDonald's, getting a can of apple juice from the soda machine at the grocery store as a big treat, etc. And I know those are memories from around age 3-4 at most, because of where we were living and where I was going to "school" (daycare) then. That's not that unusual, I don't think?

Also, there was a HUGE change in Dean's life at around that age, I mean a real before/after kind of moment. So it wouldn't surprise me if the memories before and especially after Mary died are especially sharp for him.

And then there's the old standby, "memories" that really just come from pictures. I don't know how they have so many family photos since their house essentially burnt down and Mary and John were both orphans by then (so there wasn't a big stash of photos at grandma's or something), but they do.

Maybe that last thing is what the show was getting at when they showed Dean pouring over the old family photos?

45 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is probably very trivial - especially compared to the more meaningful conversations happening about the episode - but Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.  Her and John were married for how long?  At least 6 years, right?  Dean was 4 when she died, and he was born a few years after they married.   Anyway, late 70's early 80's and John was working as a mechanic.  No mention of Mary having a job outside the house - and the Show is basically saying in all of 6-7+ years of marriage Mary never cooked once?  It was all take out?  Back then?  I don't buy it.  

I heard it as she's not into cooking, and that despite what Dean might have fantasized/imagined, she wasn't really a storybook mother with an apron on, taking her "special" meatloaf out of the oven.

Imo that's not strange or anachronistic in itself. Cooking is a chore for plenty of people. Maybe they just ate a lot of food that doesn't take a lot of prep, like pasta or canned food, or maybe John cooked. What I thought was actually stranger is that, did grocery stores really sell prepared food like premade meatloaf back in the 80s? I guess.

This kind of thing always makes me think of the I Hate to Cook Book. It was incredibly popular, and it's from 1960. So I guess cooking was seen as a chore by many people even then. Also, my mom has a copy from the 70s or 80s and let me tell you, the recipes are kind of nasty. But easy, I will give them that. Pretty easy! LOL

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I'm sure that's the case but I like my new headcannon better, lol. I think I must have seen something or read something where a person was pretending they had cooked doing things like sprinkling some flour around, hiding the carry out containers, etc.

Your theory is funnier! It would be hilarious if Mary was actually trying to convince people she was a good cook. It would be a very good way for her to try and blend in and keep up the appearance she was a normal, everyday housewife. Plus, it would free up her days to spend more time with her kids. Win, win, right! ;)

[trxr4kids]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

2) Rowena: "In any case, Lucifer can't be sent back to the cage while he's in a vessel."

SINCE WHEN!?? That was kind of the big reason Sam was Lucifer's chosen vessel!  The only reason I can see for this is to take Sam off the table permanently as a vessel, and has the side effect of taking Dean off the table as ever being Michael's vessel because there is no reason now, should Michael have ever escaped. I fucking hate this so much. Also no, a spell is NOT the only way to put Lucifer back in the Cage. The Horsemans Rings? Remember those?  No? Or they do and are still Janice in Accounting and do not give a fuck (John Oliver reference).

This is yet another reason they shouldn't have Lucifer back yet again, it just gives them more opportunities to fuck up cannon.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought that was maybe a reference to one of the times they went back to the past?  When they showed up at their house when the angels were after Mary?  Maybe someone with a better memory of all the eps can clear that up.  

This is probably very trivial - especially compared to the more meaningful conversations happening about the episode - but Mary's line about "I don't cook" just struck me as odd.  Her and John were married for how long?  At least 6 years, right?  Dean was 4 when she died, and he was born a few years after they married.   Anyway, late 70's early 80's and John was working as a mechanic.  No mention of Mary having a job outside the house - and the Show is basically saying in all of 6-7+ years of marriage Mary never cooked once?  It was all take out?  Back then?  I don't buy it.  

Also: She shopped The Pig!  (Piggly Wiggly)  I thought that was just a Southern thing, so I had to look it up.  As of 2014, there were no Pigs in Kansas.  :(  I guess there could have been back then and they closed since.  So many have.  There are Pigs in Missouri and Oklahoma.  

I had the same reaction to her saying she didn't cook. I couldn't pinpoint why it bugged me but you clarified it.

LOL at your Piggly Wiggly research because I did the same thing! I didn't think Piggly Wigglys were anywhere but the South. LOL. I thought oh boy, I've gone over the edge. I guess we went together! LOL

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't know how they have so many family photos since their house essentially burnt down and Mary and John were both orphans by then (so there wasn't a big stash of photos at grandma's or something), but they do.

Back in S1, when they went back to Kansas, the woman who lived in their house at the time found an old metal box in the basement with family photos in it and gave it to Sam and Dean. Not sure how it actually survived the fire or why no one else who lived in that house had noticed them in the previous 20 years they'd been sitting there, but that's where those "old" photos came from, I think.

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What Rowena seems to do is less opening the cage wholesale like with 66 seals but more transfering the prisoner out but the cage itself stays closed during the entire process.

This just makes me laugh. Not because you're wrong, but because if only that witchy demon Ruby knew she could so easily get Satan out of his cage back in S4 she wouldn't have had pretend she was a friend to Sam all those months. What a waste! ;)