S12.E02: Mamma Mia

[Morrigan2575]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It seems the BMoL are planning to make a move into the US and if the British hunters really work the way Lady Tony said, they would probably consider all these random hunters acting on their own without any hierarchy or clear rules of conduct, compromised.

Just a random thought what if it's the opposite?  What if the BMOL have British Hunters under their thumbs? Like the Hunters are the servants and the BMOL are the ruling class?  Maybe the fear is that the British Hunters will rebel and want their freedom the way the American Hunters act independently? 

I remember the first Grandpa Winchester episode he viewed Hunters as beneath him. 

[auntvi]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree, since Mary's "I don't cook" seemed to be a big surprise to Dean.

That was one of my favorite bits of the episode, along with her famous meatloaf from Piggly Wiggly.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree, since Mary's "I don't cook" seemed to be a big surprise to Dean. I think Sam and Dean are going to find out other things they thought they knew aren't actually the reality.

Which is actually quite reasonable. Even I've found out things about my mom that I was surprised about and she didn't disappear from my life for 30+ years. I think that's something natural to growing up is seeing your parents though different lenses as you change and grow. I'm kinda intrigued by what other things might not be totally accurate with regards to the legend of Mary.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

It IS an odd mistake for props to make.  But the world is not half-destroyed with Croatoan virus so that photo is not possible because they never got to that timeline.  Even with Mary's arrival.  So, either they ARE in a different timeline and somehow that's a similar photo OR props made a mistake.  IDK.  It was right after a photo of John in the military so maybe that was their cheat-way of pretending it was just another old photo.  I'll wait for more indications of alt-timeline before I get too nuts on this one.  I recall the mistake with John's dog tags resulting in hundreds of posts about Dean not being John's son.

 

I just don't want to believe that the show has become this sloppy with continuity and props when for years they are pretty meticulous about that sort of thing. Lady StepOffNow's Wall of Weird had what seemed to be continuity failures with birthdates and such. 

Not showing Dean and Sam actually hugging upon their reunion is way too weird to be unintentional. Sure it didn't have to happen immediately but once they got out of the torture place like getting in the car and going back to the Bunker or even at the bunker, we should have been shown the hug. IT'S A THING I don't believe Dean/Sam post-death reunions fall into" give them what they want in a way they don't expect category ". However, if this is an altered timeline then maybe Sam and Dean aren't as close as they are in this timeline so a hug wouldn't be the norm.

I'm still laughing at Singer claiming they don't want to go over old ground. They resurrect Mary and all the attendant history and legacy, use a picture from the End!Verse, bring up Ruby (RUBY!!! (NOOOO GO AWAY) and Benny(YAY yes bring back Benny please) use essential the same intro to Vincifer as Nickifer only less depth and nuance.

I think Singer and I have a different idea about what not covering old ground means. Dude, just admit that y'all are re-purposing the past to reset the future. IMO that's what's happening.

Edited October 21, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

Well, Sam & Dean have mythologized Mary for their whole lives. Dean remembers little things like the meatloaf but as a 4 year old probably wouldn't process that it came from a store. And we know that John put her on the highest of pedastals- I bet he never told them a bad story about her, like arguments etc. So there will be a learning curve to figuring out that their mom is pretty badass and doesn't need to be coddled or protected or worshipped. 

That's what I took away from the scene with Dean at the end- he's spent so much time with those photos and his gauzy memories of sweetness and pie and happiness and now the reality is much different. It felt like he was mourning his idea of what Mary was and trying to come to terms with the new Mary. Sam doesn't seem to have as much of a struggle with that, but I've always felt that Dean was the more passionate of the two and that Sam was more analytical.

count me in as one confused by that photo. I thought maybe it was one from Vietnam but on second glance it does look like the one from The End. 

Hope they've re-warded the bunker. 

I love how old-school Cas is...so season 4. "I don't sweat in any way."

Edited October 21, 2016 by Binns
More words

[trxr4kids]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't bring anything back from the alternate universe. So I think either it's a big continuity fail, which not good show. OR maybe, I kind of hope, that it's a clue that when Amara brought Mary back to life it changed things slightly.

Except that if Mary being back changed enough for that photo to exist there should have been other clues or hints. I think I have to go with continuity fail which bugs me. Mary's almost serene demeanor also bugs me. I hate manufactured angst for the sake of angst and I get that hunters tend to set aside their issues in order to deal with the now but once they're all safe in the bunker it seems to me she should be a little more broken. Maybe if they hadn't spent, imo wasted time on Mary's lack of computer knowledge and Cas' general cluelessness they could have given her a moment.

Random thoughts:

The Devil is wearing a 50 something fading B list rockstar in eyeliner with a dead trophy wife, possible parallel to Satan being used up as character, probably not intended but still.

The concert crowd were horrible actors 

The LED eyes were just beyond words, the special effects didn't work for me at all and took me out of the scenes.

LadyRapistInAPantsuit will never be redeemed for me, I don't care if she rescues a drowning puppy on screen, Dean should have just shot her.

The editing didn't work for me, I found it jarring.

Dean being captured by a never before seen sigil and cuffed while trapped, I guess. Dean being forced down stairs while having plenty of room in said cuffs to elbow LadyMacBitchyRaperson in the face, not so much. Sam put up way better of a stair fight, Dean sauntered.

Lady PsychoNeedsToDie had plenty of time in between torture to shower, change, apply make up and jewelry at least twice I think, wonder what her to do list looks like. 

Positives for me:

Sam's hair was fine throughout.

I liked the song played while Mary and Dean and Sam reflected at the end.

Crowley was great.

Cas doesn't sweat under any circumstances.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I just don't want to believe that the show has become this sloppy with continuity and props when for years they are pretty meticulous about that sort of thing. Lady StepOffNow's Wall of Weird had what seemed to be continuity failures with birthdates and such. 

I'm guessing they used it more as a shorthand of, here's hunters and the life Mary ran away from being glorified and memorialized.  Perhaps they didn't realize it would be so easily recognized? I dunno.

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Cas doesn't sweat under any circumstances.

Which had me in stitches. But that's more due to some comments I recently saw about Misha using those vegan crystals. ;)

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Except that if Mary being back changed enough for that photo to exist there should have been other clues or hints. I think I have to go with continuity fail which bugs me. Mary's almost serene demeanor also bugs me. I hate manufactured angst for the sake of angst and I get that hunters tend to set aside their issues in order to deal with the now but once they're all safe in the bunker it seems to me she should be a little more broken. Maybe if they hadn't spent, imo wasted time on Mary's lack of computer knowledge and Cas' general cluelessness they could have given her a moment

I mean it probably is continuity fail but the photo might be the first clue that something is off. The first of the breadcrumbs that all is not as it seems.

I agree about Mary's serene demeanor. She's not crying or upset or anything or all that emotional. I mean maybe she's just so happy to be alive but it feels off to me. But that might be my own confirmation bias since I've had a bit of an ongoing head!canon that this is not the actual Mary that died in 1983 but a copy of Mary that Amara created out of Dean's memories, prowling around the bunker and being attached to him for 2 years via the Mark; that Mary's a construct if you will.

But if it's being played straight, welp, do better, show.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm guessing they used it more as a shorthand of, here's hunters and the life Mary ran away from being glorified and memorialized.  Perhaps they didn't realize it would be so easily recognized? I dunno.

They should know better! If nothing else, the SPN fandom is obsessive about these kinds of details. That's really underestimating the loyal audience. I mean this fandom knew right away that some of the pictures Dean has are BTS on-set photos, which we forgive because well meta. But this is not that. 

Maybe Buck-Lemming are just the "Janice in Accounting" of the writing staff and they "Just don't give a fuck. They DON'T GIVE A FUCK!" (John Oliver reference)

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They should know better! If nothing else, the SPN fandom is obsessive about these kinds of details. That's really underestimating the loyal audience. I mean this fandom knew right away that some of the pictures Dean has are BTS on-set photos, which we forgive because well meta. But this is not that. 

Maybe Buck-Lemming are just the "Janice in Accounting" of the writing staff and they "Just don't give a fuck. They DON'T GIVE A FUCK!" (John Oliver reference)

Well, obviously, given their history. I guess I just can't get worked up over this one. It's weird and I noticed it, but it doesn't really bother me in the grand scheme of things. YMMV.

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Dean being captured by a never before seen sigil and cuffed while trapped, I guess. Dean being forced down stairs while having plenty of room in said cuffs to elbow LadyMacBitchyRaperson  n the face, not so much. Sam put up way better of a stair fight, Dean sauntered.

Ding ding ding... I think we have a winner if Lady DieNowPls gets her own thread.

But seriously, Dean not fighting back AT ALL in that moment. I can only assume that it was some kind of drug that he inhaled that had him mildly sedated.

[ZennyKenny]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

She needs to finally form the Mega Coven, and take that road trip that she wanted to with Sam and Dean, and let them know what her perfect song was for the trip.

Normally I would say that if she got any kind of power she'd immediately resort back to "evil villain" status. But she seemed to become more neutral throughout last season and genuinely seems to want out at the beginning of this season. The one consistency that I really don't like is that she's caught by others and forced to do things. I'd really like to see how come into her own fully-realized power, after all of the things that has happened to her, because I bet it would look completely different than it did when we first met her.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, obviously, given their history. I guess I just can't get worked up over this one. It's weird and I noticed it, but it doesn't really bother me in the grand scheme of things. YMMV.

I get that. I'm the opposite. I swallow poor characterizations because I love the actors and I can  head!canon shit to make it tolerable(or I can stop watching) or swallow dumb plots if something else is enjoyable for me, But these details bother me because if it is a mistake, it's a pretty easy one to NOT make given that most of the crew have been there forever.

I remember a director, maybe even Jensen, saying in a commentary that every single thing that is aired, every prop, detail, shot, is there for a reason. Each thing is scrutinized and approved or rejected up and down the production team, since it all has to be accounted for in the production budgets. That's why these things drive me crazy. LOL . Accidents just don't happen, accidentally. 

[ZennyKenny]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

As much as I enjoy Crowley, I'm sad to say that I don't really see a role for him anymore.  At least not without bringing back the angel/demon battle, and that's been played out, IMO.  The never-ending hunt for Lucifer is the only option for them, and I honestly resent when he's on the screen.  I'm just not interested. 

I think that there's a big & obvious role for him to play but the writers are afraid to do it for some reason. He needs to take back the throne and prove that he's worthy to be king of Hell. By force. Enough of this weak, diplomatic, borderline pacifistic BS. He's been the laughingstock of Hell for a long time now; it's time for him to get angry about it.  It's time for him to become CROWLEY again! If this were an 80s movie, the two demons mocking him would have been about the time his "badass" montage happened, where he gathered up his arsenal, put on the bandana, and dropped a cheesy-but-awesome one-liner.

 

But no. Apparently the writers find it more amusing to have him squabble with his mom and be the Winchesters' frienemy.

[trxr4kids]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean it probably is continuity fail but the photo might be the first clue that something is off. The first of the breadcrumbs that all is not as it seems.

I agree about Mary's serene demeanor. She's not crying or upset or anything or all that emotional. I mean maybe she's just so happy to be alive but it feels off to me. But that might be my own confirmation bias since I've had a bit of an ongoing head!canon that this is not the actual Mary that died in 1983 but a copy of Mary that Amara created out of Dean's memories, prowling around the bunker and being attached to him for 2 years via the Mark; that Mary's a construct if you will.

But if it's being played straight, welp, do better, show.

 I think that's why it stood out to me so much, while I was watching I kept thinking catrox is really on to something because it just doesn't add up.  It's like you kept saying, something seems off. 

Also I know this wasn't as offensive as some Buck/Lemming episodes but I thought the tagline for Sam's torture scenes should be...we've shown you torture...we've shown you porn...we've shown you torture porn.....now we've shown you porn torture porn with bonus wet and bleeding Sam scenes! Extended PTP scenes available on DVD release, spoiler there's a dog.

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know they weren`t actually sex scenes but it was just so random and pointless - Lady Deadeyes couldn`t even be sexy in her literal mindfuck fantasy, she was as cold and blank as during any other torture part - that I felt they only wanted to get in a scene with the actors naked and rolling around in bed. Since such a scene couldn`t come about naturally between the characters in this episode, they did this. But in the end, I felt it was not much different than Ruby being stripped down naked and "sexily restrained" for her torture scene. They don`t usually strip men for torture scenes (and have been called on it) so maybe that was their "compromise"?

Eh, I`ll take an actual sex scene for Dean for 200, please.  

Hey with these writers we should all be happy that Sam wasn't rolling around the bed naked with a dog!

[Wynne88]

And there was Andrew Dabb's comment on twitter before the episode:  "Tonight on #Supernatural rock, romance, and reunions. Tune in!"  Hopefully he was being ironic or something about the romance.

[FlickChick]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

And there was Andrew Dabb's comment on twitter before the episode:  "Tonight on #Supernatural rock, romance, and reunions. Tune in!"  Hopefully he was being ironic or something about the romance.

I sure as hell hope so, because if he really believes what we witnessed was "romance", he's got a serious problem!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Also I know this wasn't as offensive as some Buck/Lemming episodes but I thought the tagline for Sam's torture scenes should be...we've shown you torture...we've shown you porn...we've shown you torture porn.....now we've shown you porn torture porn with bonus wet and bleeding Sam scenes! Extended PTP scenes available on DVD release, spoiler there's a dog.

Seriously! It's getting to be absurd.  Look, we are all adults here. I'm all for folks getting nekkid and having the sexy times on screen when it's consensual and not born of a power imbalance.  But this shit with Sam and Dean (or anyone else, but they are the lead characters) being sexually assaulted and it being treated like it's nothing. That is not a good look show.

I keep saying if this were female characters going through this, that shit wouldn't fly.

Just now, FlickChick said:

I sure as hell hope so, because if he really believes what we witnessed was "romance", he's got a serious problem!

I'm not one for going after the writers about this kind of thing but I really think someone needs to ask him which part of this episode qualifies as romance other than Vincifer mooning over his lost lady love, there was NONE.

Rape =/= romance, dude.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure the show views that scene as rape.  They probably see it as some sort of weird drug-induced sex fantasy that will just make Sam feel slightly dirty or embarrassed for enjoying it.  I will be surprised if it's ever mentioned again.

I noticed the photograph, but I just assumed it was either a similar photo to what we saw in The End, or something else.  It was obviously Bobby, but Mary doesn't know him.  If this ends up being some sort of altered time, I'll be very surprised.  Some thought that the characters were acting strangely last seasons, and that there was going to be an explanation for it, but ultimately, it was just bad writing.  For what it's worth, I think this is real time, and Mary is back with no repercussions.  Mere mortals shouldn't time travel, but I figure God or God's sister can pretty much do whatever they want.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Is Rick Springfield Going To Hell On Supernatural?

Does Lady Toni freak when she gets blood spatter on her pants, or does she have a magic dry cleaner?

[Demented Daisy]

I am getting very disturbed at how easily the word "rape" is getting tossed around in this thread, especially the "cutesy" nicknames.

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

LadyRapistInAPantsuit

 

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

LadyMacBitchyRaperson

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Ding ding ding... I think we have a winner if Lady DieNowPls gets her own thread.

No.  Because it's disgusting and it makes light of a subject that is vile and repulsive.  Report me if you like, I don't give a damn, but all this needs to stop.

It's not cute.  It's not funny.  It's disgusting.

[ZennyKenny]

This show thinks that pretending to be a loved/trusted one in order to get them to say "yes" to being invited in (possessed) is a legitimate form of consent. I'm not surprised that they gloss over the issue of being mindfucked because they don't view it as rape.

4 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I am getting very disturbed at how easily the word "rape" is getting tossed around in this thread, especially the "cutesy" nicknames.

It's not cute.  It's not funny.  It's disgusting.

I understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe that it's meant to come off as cute or funny at all, but rather as a way of venting frustration that rape isn't getting taken seriously by the writers.

Edited October 21, 2016 by ZennyKenny

[trxr4kids]

40 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I am getting very disturbed at how easily the word "rape" is getting tossed around in this thread, especially the "cutesy" nicknames.

 

 

No.  Because it's disgusting and it makes light of a subject that is vile and repulsive.  Report me if you like, I don't give a damn, but all this needs to stop.

It's not cute.  It's not funny.  It's disgusting.

I wasn't trying to be cutesy and Sam was raped, I find it offensive that the show keeps doing these types of things and acting like it's not disgusting, vile and repulsive. In re reading my posts I can see how it can come across that way and I apologize. I do tend to use humor in situations that make me extremely uncomfortable and Buck/Lemming episodes usually do. I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable @Demented Daisy and anyone else my posts might have offended, it wasn't my intention. I was just venting on my issues with this episode in my own way. 

ETA: Also pretty much what @ZennyKenny said while I was posting this.

Edited October 21, 2016 by trxr4kids
I left "said" out of my edit

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

'm not sure the show views that scene as rape.  They probably see it as some sort of weird drug-induced sex fantasy that will just make Sam feel slightly dirty or embarrassed for enjoying it.  I will be surprised if it's ever mentioned again.

And therein lies the problem. They are tone-deaf about this shit.

Sam was ruffied and mind-fucked. And not trying to be gross or offend anyone, I think it's likely the drug induced hallucination elicited a physical response meaning an erection from Sam, not unlike when he woke up from his sex dream about Bela. This is all being done TO HIM. He has no control. He hasn't consented to having a drug induced sex hallucination with his torturer. This is fucked up and to me, it's sexual assault. No question.  If they try to excuse this as a sex fantasy, OH HELL NO.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Sam was ruffied and mind-fucked. And not trying to be gross or offend anyone, I think it's likely the drug induced hallucination elicited a physical response meaning an erection from Sam, not unlike when he woke up from his sex dream about Bela. This is all being done TO HIM. He has no control. He hasn't consented to having a drug induced sex hallucination with his torturer. This is fucked up and to me, it's sexual assault. No question.  If they try to excuse this as a sex fantasy, OH HELL NO.

See, I didn't think the show was trying to tell me it was a sex fantasy. I think the show was showing and telling it was messed up. I'm not sure where the idea had come from that the show is condoning what Lady Toni did. 

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe that it's meant to come off as cute or funny at all, but rather as a way of venting frustration that rape isn't getting taken seriously by the writers

I agree. I'm not speaking for anyone but I didn't see as a cutesy name either but a pointed remark about who hte character is now. That's how I took it anyway. That's the only way I'll ever see the character now.

[Wynne88]

Quote

I'm not sure where the idea had come from that the show is condoning what Lady Toni did. 

I could wish that Dabb hadn't called it romance.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Wynne88 said:

I could wish that Dabb hadn't called it romance.

Well, I don't think he did. I think his comment is taken way too literal and out of context, but YMMV.

[rue721]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it was that Dean was going to 'set her straight' so much as maybe it pinged his  recent misgivings about how they were raised. Despite loving John, Dean has been starting to see it differently for a while now. Dean doesn't seem to be able to talk to Sam about his issues with John that I can remember other than right after John died and when he was a demon.

Sam told Mary that her being there filled in the biggest blank of his life. Maybe Mary being around is clarifying some stuff for Dean too. Maybe in ways he didn't ever imagine. I think he's having some major cognitive dissonance about ...well, everything.  

I was thinking about this some more, and I guess he was just trying to open up to her?

I was also thinking, Mary is mourning John right now, and Dean has been there. He also knows how mythologizing Mary fucked up John and the family pretty badly. Maybe Dean is trying to keep Mary from making the same mistake and mythologizing her dead husband?

5 hours ago, GirlyGeek said:

And the end scene, with him looking at old photos and drinking on the floor of the kitchen was well done.  Mary's back, just down the hall, but Dean's looking at old photos instead.  The reality of her there is not easy for him to get a grip on, and its different, I'm sure, from all the times he's wished or hoped she'd be there.

Really interesting. I do think the adjustment is hard for him, and I think what's tripping him up is how much of a stranger she is to him. Guess he wasn't expecting that?

I was thinking that when he was looking at the photos, he was probably seeing them in a new light -- the people in them suddenly seemed like strangers to him. I think that he's never felt so distant from his own past or family before.

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Based on the questions Lady Toni was asking, I think she's been studying them from afar and got most of her information from hearsay, so it's not complete nor is it all that accurate. She's like a historian, piecing together their lives from a bunch of little things left behind and then filling in the gaps with her own supposition. You can study a person all you want, but that doesn't mean you actually know them or that everything you've studied is accurate. 

I actually think this is going to be a big theme of the season. It appears what Sam and Dean know about Mary isn't all that accurate either despite them being told stories of her since they were kids.

The thing is, if Lady had been studying them from afar, or had really studied them at all, frankly, then she would know different things. Not necessarily MORE things, but different things.

For example, was she unable to find out any information on who their parents are? John's father was a Man of Letters. You'd think that the most logical theory w/r/t Sam's recruitment would actually be somewhat close to the truth just based on that. John, a "legacy" man of letters, has his wife die in a horrific way (which would have been in the papers), and he goes off the grid for decades...when his sons reappear, they're hunters. That actually seems pretty straightforward. Same thing with Sam and Dean not being part of some sophisticated hunting network -- Lady said herself that she knew they chose their cases based on whatever random news story they ran across, so you'd think that the most logical theory for her to have based on the little she does know is that they aren't part of a sophisticated network.

The most plausible explanation imo is that someone is purposefully feeding the BMOL bad intel. As in, straight up giving them false documents and making completely false claims. To me, this looks like the BMOL have ONE source on the US supernatural "scene,"and that source is purposefully misleading them for some reason.

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree, since Mary's "I don't cook" seemed to be a big surprise to Dean. I think Sam and Dean are going to find out other things they thought they knew aren't actually the reality.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Which is actually quite reasonable. Even I've found out things about my mom that I was surprised about and she didn't disappear from my life for 30+ years. I think that's something natural to growing up is seeing your parents though different lenses as you change and grow. I'm kinda intrigued by what other things might not be totally accurate with regards to the legend of Mary.

This is actually where I feel bad for Dean. The Legend of Mary seems like it was meaningful to him, and finding out it was a lie/fantasy has got to be tough.

Also, Dean said himself he feels awkward around her. Personally, if I were him, I would be very nervous about her just not liking me that much, not liking to work with me, etc. I would be really worried about her judgment. Which maybe he's not? But I actually did get the sense that he's nervous. *shrug*

I guess my point is, if Dean sees his illusions about his mother falling apart, isn't he likely to get nervous that her illusions about him will fall apart, too, and it'll turn out that she doesn't like/love/respect him much?

I don't think that Sam could really have those worries in quite the same way, because he was so young when she died. They're starting from more of a blank slate, for better or worse.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

[...] However, if this is an altered timeline then maybe Sam and Dean aren't as close as they are in this timeline so a hug wouldn't be the norm.

I don't think this is the case. Dean said that after John disappeared, that he and Sam realized they only had and would only ever have each other. (ETA:  and I think that Mary noticed the "when Dad disappeared" thing. That had to have piqued her curiosity).

I don't think that the show is trying to say that they're distant -- at all. I think the show is just focusing right now on developing their characterization separately, as individuals instead of in the context of their relationship with each other. Imo it's actually working well, and gives their characterization some room to breathe. But time will tell, of course.

3 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

The Devil is wearing a 50 something fading B list rockstar in eyeliner with a dead trophy wife, possible parallel to Satan being used up as character, probably not intended but still.

Aw, I liked Vince. He had a gentleness to him that I liked and that I thought was interesting.

And to be honest, he reminds me of my dad, lol. So YMMV, I probably just have a softspot for skinny old dried up artists like that. ;)

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I agree about Mary's serene demeanor. She's not crying or upset or anything or all that emotional. I mean maybe she's just so happy to be alive but it feels off to me.

She's a hunter. I'm not surprised that she's very controlled in public, and waits until she's alone to break down. She actually does remind me a lot of Dean.

Tbh I think they do families well on this show, in that the characters who are meant to be bio related to each other do actually seem like they're related.

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

He needs to take back the throne and prove that he's worthy to be king of Hell. By force. Enough of this weak, diplomatic, borderline pacifistic BS. He's been the laughingstock of Hell for a long time now; it's time for him to get angry about it.  It's time for him to become CROWLEY again!

I dunno, I disagree. I think that that storyline has moved on. Crowley's not the same character he was in S5 or S6. He's tried to be, and he's failed. His story needs to go somewhere new.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously! It's getting to be absurd.  Look, we are all adults here. I'm all for folks getting nekkid and having the sexy times on screen when it's consensual and not born of a power imbalance.  But this shit with Sam and Dean (or anyone else, but they are the lead characters) being sexually assaulted and it being treated like it's nothing. That is not a good look show.

I keep saying if this were female characters going through this, that shit wouldn't fly.

I don't think that this show necessarily treats female characters so differently. I mean, Rowena was chained up at Lucifer's feet at the end of this episode. Given Lucifer's history with Sam, I can't have been the only one thinking about the various reasons he wanted to have his latest toy near him.

Edited October 21, 2016 by rue721
thoughts. MOAR THOUGHTS

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I just watched the episode  - and I have not read through the comments yet.  So I apologize for any redundancy in advance.  I used to do this with another show - I didn't read the thread ahead of time because I didn't want to be spoiled.  But now I'm SPN obsessed, so you guys get the benefit (LOL!) of my observations...in no particular order of occurrence.

• aw geez...after the discussion in the last ep, the way this one opened, with Sam and Lady MindRapeyMcRaperson I was yelling Oh Fuck No!  I'm not so sure that being a 'hallucination' is that much better, however.
• LOL.  Dean is SO much like his mom.  I think it's cute how we didn't even know it and always assumed he was like John.  That "nice chat" from Mary, was SO Dean.  
• I actually watched it twice back to back - first time through the Lucifer/Crowley/Roweena stuff was pretty good.  Second time: kinda boring.  Fast forwarded through most of it.
• Lucifer making Roweena his prisoner should be interesting though.
• Whoever said Rick Springfield looked like Alice Cooper was on the money.  Seriously - as in did he make a deal with the devil for that?  I'd also like to know what brand of eyeliner he uses.  He was tearing up thinking of his lost love and wiped at his eyes and it didn't smear at all.  I'm impressed.  Bet it was part of that same deal.
• Does consent count when you don't know to what (or whom in this case) you are consenting?  I mean, when Luci appeared to Sam as Jess, eventually he appeared as 'himself' and Sam knew it was Luci.  But Vince never did.  Could he really give consent?
• Sam was as cute as box of Golden Retriever puppies at the end, first staring at Mary during dinner and then bringing her tea.  I liked that we actually got a genuine Sam smile in there.
• Dean got to eat pie!  I know, there was the whole discussion of gross food jokes - and for a second, it was a little much.  But Dean got to eat pie!  From Mom!  C'mon.  That's got to be okay.  
• Still don't trust the Brits.  And how stupid can They be?  Do they not realize WE WON THE FUCKING WAR.  What the Hell is that BS about them cleaning up the monsters on US territory?  Oh, and btw, there's a few more Americans than there are English.  So Even If they managed to take out Every Single American Hunter, do they not think more would rise up and take up the fight?  Isn't that basically what John Winchester and Sons did?  And then we'd have to go after them.  On their own territory.  And based on past incursions, we'd win that too.  
• ETA: I don't understand why Dean didn't just shoot Lady MyPantsAreTooTightAndItMakesMeCranky.  I mean, if being unconcious interrupted the spell, wouldn't being dead do it too?

So now off to read the comments.

Edited October 21, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
why doesn't someone just shoot her already?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I didn't think the show was trying to tell me it was a sex fantasy. I think the show was showing and telling it was messed up. I'm not sure where the idea had come from that the show is condoning what Lady Toni did. 

I'm not speaking for @MysteryGuest but since that is what I was replying to, I'll say I don't think that is what his/her comment was implying, nor do I think it was saying the show condones the behavior of the character. And that is not why I was intending to imply either.

IMO, it's a terrible trope that the show falls back on time and again to make the audience feel horrified for the character being victimized, in this case, Sam. They never follow up on how that might affect the victim so to me it's too dismissive of the seriousness of the subject matter they chose to air. That's what I was getting.

If they aren't going to address it ever, then they should stop going back to that well.

[ZennyKenny]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I agree. I'm not speaking for anyone but I didn't see as a cutesy name either but a pointed remark about who hte character is now. That's how I took it anyway. That's the only way I'll ever see the character now.

Exactly. for me it's not so much that I think they'll try to pass off the mindfuck as a sex fantasy. Cos I don't think they'll even address it again. Its that when (not if, WHEN) Lady SooooNotBella gets a backstory and is painted in a sympathetic light, we'll all just be expected to be ok with it when she eventually teams up with the Winchesters to defeat the baddie BMOL masterminds at the end of the season.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I don't think he did. I think his comment is taken way too literal and out of context, but YMMV.

How is being taken out of context or too literally? At best, it was an ill-advised attempt at humor about an episode in which his main character is being horribly violated. It was pretty tone deaf IMO.  YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

How is being taken out of context or too literally? At best, it was an ill-advised attempt at humor about an episode in which his main character is being horribly violated. It was pretty tone deaf IMO.  YMMV

Because one is assuming that Dabb is saying what happened with Sam and Lady Toni is romance. You're putting words in Dabb's mouth that he did not actually say. It was a simple tweet to remind people to watch the show and I'm not sure it was really meant as anything more. 

[GirlyGeek]

One thing I forgot to mention: It seemed to me like Dean and Sam were skirting around the issue of Sam getting back into hunting after Stanford.  Anyone else?

Like they didn't want to say: well Yellow Eyes (you remember him mom, the one you made a deal with??!) well he killed Sam's almost-fiancee by burning her on the ceiling just like you.

Ok, so they wouldn't say it like that, but I kept waiting for Dean or Sam to say that Sam jumped back in because of Jess dying... and they went right around it.  In an episode where they didn't seem to be sugar coating much, was this intentional?  I could be way reading into it, though.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, GirlyGeek said:

One thing I forgot to mention: It seemed to me like Dean and Sam were skirting around the issue of Sam getting back into hunting after Stanford.  Anyone else?

Like they didn't want to say: well Yellow Eyes (you remember him mom, the one you made a deal with??!) well he killed Sam's almost-fiancee by burning her on the ceiling just like you.

Ok, so they wouldn't say it like that, but I kept waiting for Dean or Sam to say that Sam jumped back in because of Jess dying... and they went right around it.  In an episode where they didn't seem to be sugar coating much, was this intentional?  I could be way reading into it, though.

Oh yeah, I think they were skirting the issue. I don't think either Sam or Dean want to bring up Yellow Eyes with Mary right now. It would break their bubble of happiness.  

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

don't think that this show necessarily treats female characters so differently. I mean, Rowena was chained up at Lucifer's feet at the end of this episode. Given Lucifer's history with Sam, I can't have been the only one thinking about the various reasons he wanted to have his latest toy near him.

Oh I agree. My point was more that in this SPECIFIC situation. I think there is a weird level of I dunno, sexism? maybe that when this happens to a man, it's not treated as seriously as it is with a female. That's what I was trying to get it at. It's the same complaint I had last season with Dean and Amara.

Dean was kissed against his will by Amara. He might have had moment of pleasure but he didn't encourage her to do it because he was in her thrall. Dean said a couple of episodes later it wasn't love or desire, so I  was like YES there it is! They aren't calling it for what I think it was, but they said what it wasn't. But then towards then end there is this kind of dialogue: 

Dean :"We should just walk away". 

Amara: "Well, why don't you".

Dean: "I dunno, I can't". 

Good grief that's romantic writing 101. So it kind of subverts what IMO was pretty clearly a non-consensual creepy connection. And leaves me thinking that the writers really don't get why it's a problem.  I fear that same thing will happen with Sam and Lady DieAlready.  That she'll be turned into an ally that Sam has to work with and the whole gross rapey event is pushed under the rug.

I mean JFC in this episode she literally says "Was it good for you?". Sam snorts and looks away sheepishly. That really upset me. That establishes her as awful, yet by  the end of the episode there is already some indication, she could become an ally. And if she becomes an ally then that basically lets her off the hook and whilst doesn't condone the actions it doesn't really condemn her enough.

[Wynne88]

Quote

That she'll be turned into an ally that Sam has to work with . . .

Wouldn't be the first time.  He was expected to work with Lucifer last year, and even to help rescue the guy, and apparently had no problem with it, despite having even more history with him.  I can only assume that Sam is very good at compartmentalizing. 

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean JFC in this episode she literally says "Was it good for you?".

When she said that, I was cringing; it was so repulsive. And I was ready to hear her story and see what she was about. Now, I don't care. That was so far over the edge. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because one is assuming that Dabb is saying what happened with Sam and Lady Toni is romance. You're putting words in Dabb's mouth that he did not actually say. It was a simple tweet to remind people to watch the show and I'm not sure it was really meant as anything more. 

Not sure where I put words in his mouth here. He's the one that floated the word "romance" about the episode. Not me. I already acknowledged he might have been referring to the rocker and his lady. If he was, I still think it's an ill-advised tweet given the subject matter surrounding what happened to Sam.  YMMV

[7kstar]

Finally watched both eps.  School is kicking my butt as I'm trying to get the first production ready.

I really love Mary and the boys.  I think be careful what you wish for is being shown quite well.  Also for me it feels like Sam and Mary uniting on one issue, both wanting out of hunting and it leaves Dean as the odd man out.  Watching his memories being destroyed is also very sad.  Sam doesn't have anything to lose so for him it is an up side. 

I'm so over the torture scenes.  All of it.  So Dean who has been taught by one of the best is so easy to overcome?  I'm glad he got the win for this time...but if they go back to the EMOL is so much better...gag.

I liked Rick Springfield and how Luci surprised them all but please wrap it up.  Not interested in this one.  Come up for something else to do.

Rape isn't funny or cute, and isn't something I want to see more of.  Romance (such a wrong choice of words!) with Sam...fails again can we shoot her now?  Please just move on,

It does look like they may be trying to put more creepiness in, but I want the boys to be the hero's and the big bad...not excited about it as it will be play making both boys look dumb for plot points.

But I did like a lot more than I thought I would so that is a plus.  Tried to keep it short so I'm not just repeating what someone else said.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Wouldn't be the first time.  He was expected to work with Lucifer last year, and even to help rescue the guy, and apparently had no problem with it, despite having even more history with him.  I can only assume that Sam is very good at compartmentalizing. 

Yeah, that's why I think the show becomes tone deaf for the sake of drama and angst. Sam may be good at compartmentalizing but the show should acknowledge in some way what he was being asked to do was pretty beyond. I think Dean might have spoken up a little but Chuck was like "it's fine he can't hurt you". Well, Chuck that's actually not the issue , per se....

No one but Sam and Lady MustReallyDieNow know what happened. I doubt she was documenting her torture, but maybe she was. We'll see what happens. I'll give them props if they actually do something with how it affects Sam but I'm not holding my breath.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I think be careful what you wish for is being shown quite well.  Also for me it feels like Sam and Mary uniting on one issue, both wanting out of hunting and it leaves Dean as the odd man out.  Watching his memories being destroyed is also very sad.  Sam doesn't have anything to lose so for him it is an up side. 

That's what kind of bothers me about all this.  Dean didn't wish for this. Amara made a unilateral decision and assumption about Dean here. That he needed his mother when he just really missed her and thought about her and wanted to maybe talk to her which isn't the same as wishing she was alive again.  So this is kind of a cruelty to Dean that he never asked for. 

[bethy]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'll give them props if they actually do something with how it affects Sam but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote

 

I'm betting that the WB/CW/CasAngelHealingPower salve will work just as well on emotional/psychological trauma as it does on physical in this instance, and it'll never be mentioned again.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 I think it's cute how we didn't even know it and always assumed he was like John.  That "nice chat" from Mary, was SO Dean.  

I think it was always a misconception that Dean was like John but was more that  Dean wanted to emulate John, which kind of turns out that he was more seeking John's approval than anything else.IMO. 

The show kind of acknowledged that after John died that Sam was more like John than Dean would ever be.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I don't think this is the case. Dean said that after John disappeared, that he and Sam realized they only had and would only ever have each other.

What I mean is that can  have each other and still not be close emotionally but they make a decision to support each other anyway.

[MysteryGuest]

I suppose Dabb could have been referring to Lucifer's little romantic moment, but I don't think so.  That's why I said that I don't think the writers see this drug-induced sexual hallucination in as bad a light as most of us do.  I mean what guy doesn't want to have sex with a sexy blond??  That's the mindset I think they have.  There's nothing sexy or romantic about any of what happened, but I just don't see them treating it as any big deal.  Maybe they'll prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

As for Mary and Yellow Eyes, I know she made the deal to bring John back that set the Winchester's story in motion, but aren't we supposed to believe, per the angels, that their fate could not have been avoided?  That Mary and John were destined to be together, no matter what?  So did it really matter what she did or didn't do and could she have avoided it even if she wanted to?

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Binns said:

That's what I took away from the scene with Dean at the end- he's spent so much time with those photos and his gauzy memories of sweetness and pie and happiness and now the reality is much different. It felt like he was mourning his idea of what Mary was and trying to come to terms with the new Mary.

I would agree with this more if Dean hadn't met Mary in the past when she was a young hunter. He spent several days maybe even a week with her and hunted with her. He hunted with her in Song Remains the Same and Dean remembers all that. He got a sense of who she was then. Dean said she was smart, funny, hopeful. She almost kicked his ass when they first met. It's really strange to me that hasn't come up yet or did it and I just don't remember?

Like Dean's memories should include that time not just the childhood, right?

[MysteryGuest]

Dean told Mary that he'd met her twice before by traveling back in time, but that her memory was wiped clean, so she wouldn't remember any of it.  He didn't specifically say that she almost took him out that first time. 

Dean has "mommie" memories, Mary lore that John told him, and his own adult perceptions of her from meeting her as a young woman.  Now he's meeting her again, so I have no doubt that he's all sorts of screwed up about what's real and what's not and just how he feels about all of it.