Mary Margaret: Is Snow White Again?

[Camera One]

Charming was completely missing, but Snow spent most of the episode standing around doing nothing.  I kept expecting her to say something, but nope.  Though I was amused with her exaggerated OMG Regina is about do a spell, get away quick! motion.  I guess as an actor, you need to entertain yourself somehow.

[stealinghome]

I feel like that's emblematic of the show's treatment of Snow and Charming in general now though--they so obviously have less than 0 interest in writing for them. So Snow and Charming are there, but only in token form. This shady Snowing plotline is so obviously a "we're out of ideas" thing.

 

Honestly, at this point, I wish the show would just write off Snow and Charming. Then they wouldn't be character assassinated any further, Goodwin and Dallas could go spend more time with baby Oliver and/or take on projects that actually want them, and I could go entirely cold turkey with a clean conscience!

[Camera One]

Aside from the Snow as Mayor dropped subplot, what exactly happened with Snow finding it difficult to spend time away from the baby?  So 6 weeks later, she has already gone back to work at the school?  Isn't that a bit of a 180?  Even many normal people take half a year for maternity leave.  Not only that, she went to watch the Fairies being freed from the Hat after work, instead of hurrying home to see the baby.  Seriously, is anything that they write for Snow not a throw-away which can be ignored afterward?  

Edited March 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Snow has all that guilt over causing Mal to lose her child (however that was). Maybe that's why she's been so forgiving towards Regina to the point of idiocy. It's not just because of unresolved guilt over Daniel. Maybe she feels that if she forgave Regina for separating her from Emma, she herself can be forgiven too. Now, the question is, why didn't that darken her heart? Come to think of it, A&E beleive 10 year old Snow is responsible for ruining Regina's life by spillign secrets. Shouldn't she have multiple dark spots by now? 

[Camera One]

We probably put way more thought into Snow's mindset than the writers, since she is clearly only there to be a prop for Regina, or a motivator for whatever crap they want to put Emma through.  In 4A, Snow was basically used to make Emma do what Elsa did in the movie, and when they were done with it, they had no interest in exploring Snow or Snow/Emma afterwards.  It will be the same in 4B.  This idiotic "secret" will push Emma towards temptation for darkness or whatever, but we won't get any actual payoff for Emma/Snow/Charming, because how could it?  It does no favors to their base characters.  At best, it will reinforce it, and at worst, it will undermine it.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I have these horrible thoughts about how they are going to paint this as Snowing just doing it to protect Emma and Emma is a judgmental bitch for not forgiving them immediately. And there will not be enough liquor in the world to get me through that kind of storyline.

 

It's interesting that Snow is so often showing guilt for all kinds of deeds that maybe she doesn't need to angst over endlessly, but I don't think we've ever seen her show any guilt about sending Emma through the wardrobe. Yes, yes, Emma was going to die but Snow is guilty about every little thing she's ever done wrong, so why isn't she an absolute basket case about Emma? We've seen her in denial about it ("The Tower") and upset about missing out ("Ariel" & "Going Home"), but never out and out guilt about how if she'd made different choices, Emma could have been raised by her parents. Now we see her being all torn up about Maleficent losing her child because of them, but nothing to indicate any questioning that maybe if she'd worked with Maleficent, her own child could have stayed with her. Also, did they even try to find a couple of other non-pregnant "valiant heroes" to ask the tree how to stop the curse? Surely there's got to be more heroes around who'd have an interest in stopping the curse. They had nine months to do so. Honestly, this show has now shown us so many different options that Snow & David could have worked out to protect their child that I don't understand how Snow is not catatonic with grief over how badly her choices affected her child.

[Camera One]

I have these horrible thoughts about how they are going to paint this as Snowing just doing it to protect Emma and Emma is a judgmental bitch for not forgiving them immediately. And there will not be enough liquor in the world to get me through that kind of storyline.

 

I seriously doubt it.  In 4A, Emma's response was very understandable and Snow looked like the jerk.  Based on "Unforgiven", Snow will look worst when all is said and done.

 

 

 

Also, did they even try to find a couple of other non-pregnant "valiant heroes" to ask the tree how to stop the curse? Surely there's got to be more heroes around who'd have an interest in stopping the curse. They had nine months to do so.

 

Yeah, stupid stupid stupid.  Everything they show just tells the viewer that Snow and Charming are stupid.  They couldn't make a single intelligent decision in 4A without Regina telling them what to do.  

Edited March 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I'm putting this here even though this is about both Snow and Charming. Season 4 has really done a number on them, hasn't it? 4A had Snow have a trail run as Mayor of Storybrooke, only to show that she was incompetent to be Mayor, had hideous taste in decor, and ends with Regina getting the job back.

Charming's backstory in 4A did him little favors. He was apparently a coward until Anna pep talked him into bravery. He's also gone along with Snow's insane ideas, and has been more David Nolan than Prince Charming this half-season.

We learn that Snowing had feet of clay, and are unjustifiably self-righteous. Snow did not do great in her relationship with her daughter either. She was afraid of Emma's magic, and pushed Emma to almost get rid of her magic. And apparently was so obsessed with Emma's potential for Darkness, that she performed an evilectomy in utero. But everything gets resolved by a hug.

Not to mention, Snow's ridiculous pep talks cheering adultery, and monologues about the eggnapping made little to no sense. A far cry from the people we were introduced to in S1!

[Camera One]

They've become the writers' favorite punching bags.  Or at least the spare pieces of cardboard the Writers use when the table is a little lopsided.  They're only used to service Regina, or as triggers for Emma.  There is no interest in their characters in and of themselves.  As I said in the All Seasons thread, rewatching "Unforgiven" and "Best Laid Plans" showed me their dialogue is interchangeable.  Charming also sometimes took the lead, but it was impossible to predict who would say what, because their whole plotline was them saying opposite stuff to each other to prolong the fretting.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

From the All Seasons thread:

 

I always liked season 1 Mary Margaret better than un-cursed Mary Margaret and even Bandit!Snow.

 

I thought Mary Margaret was a much better person than current Snow. I don't see her personality in her at all.

 

I've always like Mary Margaret more than Snow even Bandit!Snow.

 

Count me in as another person who prefers Season 1 Mary Margaret. She got through to Emma and Henry in her cursed state. She started out having an affair with a supposed married man, but she showed a lot of self-respect by ending it when David started waffling. I also love the Mary Margaret/Snow hybrid who jumped through the Hat after Emma. But maybe that was some lingering effects of her Cursed persona, because after that, she has become boring, judgemental, and doesn't seem to care all that much about Emma. Apparently she sucks as Mayor too, and her former friends like Granny and Leroy don't seem to respect her all that much anymore.

 

The same way, I liked flashback Snow in Season 1, but most of her flashbacks in later seasons show her as someone who babbles on about hope too much, was not a very responsible ruler to her people, and performed fetal evilectomies. I don't know how the writers could take one of the most interesting characters from the first season, and turn her into a two dimensional puppet. They probably think they are deconstructive Snow White in a very clever manner. Unfortunately, they seem to have destroyed her past the point of recognition or recovery.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I don't know how the writers could take one of the most interesting characters from the first season, and turn her into a two dimensional puppet.

 

A&E considers both Mary Margaret and Snow to be boring characters.  But they need to use her, so they used her as a prop for Regina and to a lesser extent Emma.  While she was on partial maternity leave, that was easy by giving her supportive conversations cheering Regina on (eg. 3B), or acting in a way which made Emma doubt herself (eg. 4A), or sideplots that led nowhere, like the Mayor subplot.  They clearly did not have true intentions to explore Snow learning how to be a ruler or how to juggle baby/career.  If they did, Snow would have continued to be mayor with all the natural struggles that should have come with that.  4B, they needed to use her more, so she and Charming became one of the "mysteries" of the season, to create so-called suspense and to build up the possibility of Emma turning dark.  That ultimately went nowhere as well, but she served the purposes of the writers.  And as you said, the writers can justify this as deconstructing Snow White.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

A&E considers both Mary Margaret and Snow to be boring characters.

I think this is the crux of the matter. They even dress her up in frumpy clothes to emphasizes her boringness, and her EF hair is a mess. lol

[HoodlumSheep]

Evil Queen Snow is a gift from the heavens. Ginny did such a good job!

[Rumsy4]

Yes, she did. Ginny's acting has been sort of uneven in this show. That could be because of the godawful lines she gets handed for the most part. But this episode proved that she's a really good actress. I loved the twist she brought to the role. She wasn't imitating Lana's Evil Queen. She was a colder more collected "Snow White" version. I especially loved her reaction to Emma's "hope" speech. 

[OnceUponAJen]

Snow's Evil Queen had more of a quiet menace to her. I liked her portrayal.

[Mari]

Snow's Evil Queen had more of a quiet menace to her. I liked her portrayal.

I have to agree.

 

Personally, when it comes to villains, I find the quiet, understated performances hit the mark more solidly for me than the more florid performances.

 

Usually, the bigger performance always seems a little campy to me, and I struggle not to giggle.  (For example, I usually find Mr. Gold far more intimidating than Imp Rumple.)

[Serena]

I absolutely loved Ginny's take on the Evil Queen. It was even scarier for being less in your face - you could tell she was completely off her rocker but she wasn't yelling all the time and giving crazy eyes at the camera.

[HoodlumSheep]

I wish we could have had more of her. she was probably my favorite thing about the finale.

[SilverShadow]

Evil Queen Snow was wonderful. She had this air of barely restrained crazy menace, until it starts to look through then FIRE AND BLOOD, that's very different from Lana's more controlled portrayal. I loved when she had her council and was discussing the importance of teamwork and leadership like an overly earnest middle manager and then WHAM heart crush.

[angora]

Oh, evil Snow was spectacular.  I love that Ginny's performance really didn't imitate Lana's at all.  In fact, that soft, gentle voice she used was the closest she's ever sounded to the movie version of Snow White, all sweetly false and innocent-sounding right up to the point where she rips your heart out and crushes it, which just made the whole thing even more twisted and awesome.  I was side-eyeing lots of things about the AU pretty hard, but I wouldn't trade a second of evil Snow.

[legaleagle53]

No kidding. Ginny got it right, in my opinion.  In fact, I wouldn't mind an AU spin-off with Evil Snow; I think it would be a hoot!

[mjgchick]

I love how even though she's evil, Evil Snow had her goons who are loyal to her. Also the scenes where they are all at the table reminds me so much of New Jack City where Nino Brown expresses his displeasure of his organizations performance. lol No scene chewing just balls to the walls crazy except scarier. Who ever said Ginny has the closest to Evil Queen from the fairytale is right.

[KingOfHearts]

While I find over the top villain performances very entertaining when done right (Evil Queen and Imp Rumple fan here), Ginny's take was refreshing and I loved it. She reminded me a lot of Ingrid. So regal and calculated, yet so crazy. Her total and complete apathy for others was intimidating.

Edited May 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Since this show is determined to destroy the Snow character, I was playing a fun What If game for her on my walk today. We've repeatedly seen Snow afraid of Emma and very judgmental of her. Last season, we learned that these irrational reactions to judging Emma go back to before she was even born. Snow can't have an evil baby and needed to "fix" her. Even after the whole eggnapping/darkness removal and knowing Emma the person, Snow still worried about Evil!Emma. My question is what if Snow had raised Emma? How would her ridiculous belief that Emma would be evil influence her raising of Emma? What if four year old Emma got upset because another kid had taken her toy and used magic to hurt the other child? That doesn't make Emma evil, but would Snow see this as a sign of it? Would she obsess over it and constantly see the bad in Emma? How would that affect their relationship? Based on Snow's crazy, I think the Emma/Snow relationship would have been more fucked up if Snowing had raised her than not having done so. That is just so not right. The deeper I think about Snow's reaction to finding out her baby could possibly grow up to be evil (just like every baby ever), the angrier I get about the awful story given to Snow in S4.

[Camera One]

We all know the whole purpose of that StoptheEvilBaby! plot was to set up the whole Lily thing, and had nothing to do with providing growth to Snow's character.  Snow freaking out over the baby having a 50/50 chance of being evil made no sense.  If that were the case, wouldn't it affect every fairy tale Prince and Princess who have true love?

 

I was thinking about the Season 4 premiere preview scene they showed a few weeks ago, the one immediately after Emma disappeared and the Dagger dropped.  The two main actors in that scene were Hook and Regina, and we wondered if Snowing would also get to play a role in finding Emma.  The rest of the premiere was just an expanded version of that shorter scene.  Look who contributed to getting to Emma?  Hook (along with Henry) helped get Zelena to make the tornado, and then Regina steered the tornado towards getting them to Emma.  Once they got to Emma, Hook talked her down from murder, while fellow talk-Emma-down-from-murder comrade Regina looked on.  Meanwhile, Snow and Charming's role was... ???   This is all such a waste of Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

This is all such a waste of Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas.

 

Seriously. But at least Charming got to hug Emma in the premiere. Snow didn't even get to do that. And the sad thing is that there were plenty of tiny changes the writers could have done to make Snow and Charming more integral in the quest to find Emma. Why did Regina have to be the one to bring in Emma's baby blanket? Why couldn't that task been given to Snow? It doesn't even make sense within the show's canon for Regina to know where that blanket is, and it would have been a lot more emotionally resonant if Snow had to go find Emma's baby blanket and hand it over to someone else so that they could reach Emma. You barely have to edit the script for that scene to work, just flip flop Snow and Regina's lines and have Snow walk in with the blanket instead.

[Camera One]

Why did Regina have to be the one to bring in Emma's baby blanket? Why couldn't that task been given to Snow?

 

I have a sneaking feeling that was meant to show that Regina had a tender side, demonstrating how well Regina knew Emma and how she was wordlessly demonstrating her apologies to Snow over what she did in the past through symbolism with the blanket.

 

A little thing as you suggested would have been nice.  From the ending, it looks like they're going to have Snowing let down Emma yet again, no doubt by doing something stupid.  

Edited September 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

IMO, A&E have come to dislike and despise Snow. They have never forgiven her for spilling Regina's secret when she was 10.

[YaddaYadda]

The more things go, the more I realize Snow sucks at life.

[Curio]

I have a sneaking feeling that was meant to show that Regina had a tender side, demonstrating how well Regina knew Emma and how she was wordlessly demonstrating her apologies to Snow over what she did in the past through symbolism with the blanket.

 

Responding in the writers thread.

[Mari]

IMO, A&E have come to dislike and despise Snow. They have never forgiven her for spilling Regina's secret when she was 10.

Well, neither has Snow or Regina, so . . .

[Rumsy4]

[A&E] have never forgiven her for spilling Regina's secret when she was 10..

Well, neither has Snow or Regina, so . . .

In a meta level, it's cause and effect. ;-)

Edited September 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Well, in the interview in 4B, A&E were talking about how they loved having Snow confide her shameful secret to Regina, and how Regina will be so much better at keeping secrets.

[Mari]

Well, in the interview in 4B, A&E were talking about how they loved having Snow confide her shameful secret to Regina, and how Regina will be so much better at keeping secrets.

I'd hope so, since she's approximately 65-75, and Snow was 10!

[Delphi]

What I really would have liked is if Regina and Snow had come up with the plan together. Say it's Regina's plan to hijack the portal and then someone asks how and Snow pulls out the blanket, "With this." That way Snow doesn't come across as completely passive.

[Rumsy4]

Charming cried out "Mary Margaret! Mary Margaret!" when Merlin was choking Snow. Maybe it's time to change the name of the thread to Mary Margaret: Eggnapper Extraordinaire. 

[Camera One]

The whole "we need to call her Mary Margaret or people would get confused" thing is so ridiculously stupid.  An insult to most of the fans' intelligence, actually.

[Delphi]

I'm very happy for Ginny and Josh but I'm afraid that Snow is never, ever going to be able to be a badass again and that's really depressing.

[Curio]

I kind of feel the same way. It makes me upset that Snow and Charming have barely interacted at all with Emma during 5A, because it looks like the writers might have to limit Ginny's hours in 5B. It's a waste of a great actress and (once upon a time) great character. 

[Rumsy4]

I feel almost depressed at how little the writers value Snow and Charming anymore. They were the main couple to root for in Season 1. Since Season 2 however, they, especially Snow, have been deconstructed bit by bit to the point of having little to no personality. Even within one episode, Snow's reactions were all over the place. One minute she is declaring there is no Emma anymore (even though she has not exchanged two words with her in Storybrooke). The next minute she is trying to keep Regina from hurting her (does Regina really think she stands a chance against Dark Emma, btw?) and saying they are going to "save" her.

 

Why couldn't Snow have been the one to talk to Emma in Camelot by the well and open up to her? They gave a CS scene to Snow once in Neverland with the Lost Girl moment. They could have done it with Regina here. In the scene where Snowing and Regina confront Dark Emma, Snow and Charming don't even talk to Emma, nor does she talk to them in particular. It's only Regina and Emma interacting. It might have been better if Snow and Charming had decided to go back to the Enchanted Forest with Ruby taking Baby Snowflake with them. Offscreenville would be a better option than the human props they've turned into. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I lol'ed at the new title.

[Rumsy4]

Too funny!!

[FormerMod-a1]

Thank you.  :-D

[Curio]

Now, let's hope we can change the title of this thread back to something like "Snow: She Kicks Ass Again!" some time before the series ends. 

[regularlyleaded]

LOL! The new thread title is everything! <3 1000 points to whoever thought of it and a 1000 points to the mod (aquarian1?) who changed it.
 

It might have been better if Snow and Charming had decided to go back to the Enchanted Forest with Ruby taking Baby Snowflake with them. Offscreenville would be a better option than the human props they've turned into.

Yes, that's the conclusion that I've come to. And I hate to say it, but now with Ginny's pregnancy, perhaps it's best that Snow is written off the show. Hell, write Snowing off the show. Send them to the same happily ever after club that they sent Aurora and Philip with their new baby before the writers ruin them anymore (though, can it get worse? You'd think not, but TS;TW). Snow has become so inconsequential and such an empty shell prop that it's depressing seeing her around because it's just a reminder of how far she's fallen (and the same goes for David, IMO).

With the way the writers treat Snow, she's no longer pertinent to the storyline in any way. IMO, in 5A, Emma is the character that Snow should be interacting with most and yet she hasn't even exchanged words with Emma in what, 5,6 episodes? And when Snow does talk about Emma it whiplashes from “There is no more Emma! Dark Swan must be stopped!” to “We can save Emma!” Which one is it Snow and how would you even know if you haven't even talked to Emma since day 2 of this meshugaas?!? It's glaringly bad and deeply disappointing how little Snow has interacted with Emma and how irrelevant Snow has been to Emma's story and (IMO) that should not be.

Snow's character (and this applies to David too) has become so disconnected from everything else going on in the show, that it struck me when watching “Birth” that it actually felt like Snowing was on a different show from everyone else. It was as if there's a show where Emma is fighting the darkness and Hook is trying to help her and save her, while Regina is just being her usual mean bitch self, controlling Emma and Zelena. And then? Then there's Snow and Charming....in their own bubble, by themselves, in their own private show about how much they love each other and are united in whatever stupid plan they've come up with. Sometimes baby do-over shows up in the Snowing bubble, but really it's the same bubble for two they've been in since season 3. Snowing is on another show, and it's not even an interesting show because along with sharing a heart they share the same personality so it's like watching a person just stand around agreeing with everything they say to themselves. That's just how inconsequential, nondescript, and what cardboard cutouts they have both become.

While the writers have written scenes of Emma interacting with Hook, Regina, and Henry in 5A, it's depressing how Snow (and David) aren't even a blip on the radar. It's particularly galling to me because some of the best scenes and most emotionally resonant moments on this show (IMO) have been between Snow and Emma. Not only because their situation is so richly complicated, but also because Morrison and Goodwin play so well off of each other. But in lieu of making use of them and the freaking gold mine of awesome that could be if the writers devoted any time and real effort to Emma and Snow's relationship what do the writers give us? Snowing showing Regina how to dance, Regina's Daniel angst AGAIN, and Henry's overwrought, nails on the chalk board, obnoxious early teen angst because he got friend zoned. Give. Me. An. Effing. Break. Show. Seriously, the writers could have taken all that time devoted to the contrived and overwrought Henry teen angst bullshit and instead written a storyline with Snow and Emma (or at least a few scenes, dammit!). Because, at the very least, even if the plot didn't make sense, Morrison and Goodwin can act the hell out of the material and bring a lot of much emotional depth to their performances, so much so that I'm willing to overlook the plot holes and contrivances (frankly, we're all experts at doing that at this point). But no. That's not what the writers did. We got some beat your head against the wall, overwrought teen wank with effing Henry. JFC, writers. Enough of your self-insert BS. No one cares about your latent, childhood angst that you want to relive on screen with your personal meat puppets. Get therapy in your own personal time!

*le sigh* Goodwin and her character (and Charming) are being wasted here, so do us a favor, Show, and just put the characters and us out of our misery and write Snowing off. The material Snow and David as individual characters have been given has made no difference to anything going on. No impact whatsoever. You could remove all of Charming's “bromance” BS with Arthur and the entire Snow and Lancelot sub-plot and it makes not a whit of difference to the story arc, neither plot-wise nor on an emotional level.

And just so it's understood, it's not hate that's motivating my desire to see them written off. I'm saying this as someone who started this show really loving Snow's character and as someone who has always been invested in Emma's relationship with Snow. Admittedly, for the past two and a half seasons I've wanted to smack Snow upside the head really hard, multiple times, but nevertheless, Snow and Emma's relationship was the reason I watched this show and stuck with it. It was my foolish hope that the writers would really deal with Emma and Snow's relationship and it will always be the number one relationship that I was invested and interested in on this show (even including Emma and Hook's relationship). But sadly, not only have the writers done squat with it, they've basically ruined what was (to me) one of the loveliest and yet wonderfully complex relationships on this show in s1 and early s2. The writers have turned Snow into a witless, Regina's arse kissing, prop that carries the idiot ball into the next episode and stands around looking like she's trying to remember if she left the stove on.

What a disappointing, almost criminal, waste of a character, story material, and actor.

Edited November 17, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

The sad thing is, the first reaction might be "Oh no, now we won't see Snow and Emma interact".  But Ginny had her baby a long time ago now, and the writers still refused to write anything for them.  If anything, the pregnancy would be A&E&J's excuse to do even less with Snow/Emma, if that's even possible.

[Mari]

  If anything, the pregnancy would be A&E&J's excuse to do even less with Snow/Emma, if that's even possible.

Well, they have made eye contact a couple of times this season.

 

That must be stopped immediately.

[Camera One]

I can imagine the director in that Regina/Emma well scene.  "EMMA IS EXITING THE SET.  SNOW/CHARMING CAN NOW COME ON."  "Jennifer Morrison, can you please walk off the scene faster?  You're supposed to be at least a football stadium away".

Edited November 18, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I guess it's good for Josh and Ginny that they decided to have their babies while working for this show. They work together, can bring both babies to the set, and it's not like they're needed for anything too major anyway. 

[Curio]

I don't get why it was so terrible for Snow to want to use the dagger on Emma during the premiere, but then Emma is thankful for Regina using the dagger on her at the well. Can we please just set up some consistency here?
 

Why couldn't Snow have been the one to talk to Emma in Camelot by the well and open up to her?

I was so hoping for something like this. We could have had a really nice parallel to their conversation in "Lost Girl."

 

You know what line in particular really made me sad for Snow's character? Before the season began, there was that awesome promo that came out where Ginny narrated the whole thing and it seemed like Snow would actually have a big role in the Dark Swan plot. But there's a small section where Ginny says, "No one knows the lure of evil more than I. I have felt its embrace." They pair that dialogue with some shots of Snow with a bow and arrow and another shot of her crying. But then the writers go and give that same line to Regina at the well in 5x08: "No one knows the lure of darkness better than I do." Like, what the hell writers? Why couldn't it have been Snow at the well instead? Regina and Snow would have basically said the exact same things apparently!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Curio