JonBenet Ramsey

[Guest]

Looking very forward to Burke's deposition. 

Be careful what you wish for, young man. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I read somewhere that Boulder only has 1-3 homicides per year, so they definitely don't have the experience of larger PDs.  But if I live to be 100 (which isn't that much longer), I will not understand how the Ramseys were able to avoid being formally interviewed within a couple of days of the murder.  I, too, watch a lot of real-life murder stories and cop shows, and I've NEVER heard of "people of interest" having the freedom to say, "Oh, I'm so medicated from the trauma of losing my loved one that I'm in no shape to be interviewed."  And then they get a lawyer and avoid, avoid, avoid.  If this were my child, I'd be camped out at police headquarters to make sure they were working their butts off to find the killer.

Yes to all of this! And I say that as someone who doesn't find it to be terrible that they retained lawyers early: big crime, wealthy family, blah, blah--there are probably a few logical reasons for people like that to have some representation, if only in an advisory capacity. But I also think one can have an attorney and still be ready to follow the usual investigation procedure without stonewalling. I mean, I think so--I've never been in such a situation and am not in law enforcement!

Edited October 14, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[DangerousMinds]

11 hours ago, SSAHotchner said:

I can see her getting up and seeing to breakfast without showering if she was planning on getting cleaned up and dressed later, but who doesn't shower when they get up? And no way do I believe she'd put on clothes she wore the day before. I'm sorry but this whole part of the story just says to me that she never changed out of her clothes the night before, never even went to bed. 

I don't want to shock you, but lots of people don't shower every day.

[doodlebug]

44 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't want to shock you, but lots of people don't shower every day.

Yup. Especially early on a cold winter morning.  Maybe they had plans with the family for dinner in Michigan and she figured she'd shower and change before that.  Wearing the same clothes as the day before is pretty uncommon, though.  Particularly when the previous night's clothing was worn to a party where it was exposed to various spills and maybe cigarette smoke and such.  Storing one's clothes in the bathtub overnight also very odd, IMO.  However, none of this means Patsy committed any crime.  It just seems more likely that she never went to bed the night before and that's why she was still dressed.  And that does indicate she knew more about what had happened than she told the cops.  As does the immediate lawyering up and stonewalling.  If they were really concerned the cops were targeting them to the detriment of finding the real killer, why didn't they arrange to talk to the cops, with their attorney present, right at the start so they could be exonerated and the cops could move on to other suspects?  IMO, because they knew there were no other suspects.

[FormerMod-a1]

57 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don't want to shock you, but lots of people don't shower every day.

Or prefer to shower in the evening.  Or combine the two - every other day and not in the morning.  :-P

[TattleTeeny]

Definitely nighttime showering. I like to shed the horrors of the day before I lounge all over my (admittedly cat-hair-covered) house and furniture!

[Chai]

I understand the parents wanting to protect Burke. I am a parent, too. I definitely understand. But what about JB? She also deserves protecting. Not only did she loose her life at only 6 years old, but she was being sexually abused from someone. She didn't get any protection from that and it didn't happen only once, according to the medical examiner. That really bothers me about this.

There is definitely something wrong with Burke. 

 

 

There is so much of this case that doesn't add up.  I don't understand covering up for the other parent if you think that parent has been sexually abusing your 6 year old!  Why would you do that ? to keep up that lifestyle? That life style would be meaningless to me without the 6 year old!

Where did JR go and what did he do that morning he went missing? Probably getting rid of evidence. They washed down JB and staged the crime scene, and  so much was lost. 

I never would have been able to say, I'm much too distressed to speak now"  I can't believe they were allowed to say that. No wonder he had a last minute business meeting he couldn't miss! Get us out of dodge so they don't ask us anything else! 

 

He had older children. Ask them what kinds of things go on in that house. Were the older ones ever abused? Did they ever have toileting issues? 

or how about someone asking them if they ever had issues with smearing  feces around the house?!  

[ghoulina]

His older children were QUITE a bit older. I don't know that they ever lived in the house with his second wife and youngest two children. It still might be interesting to see what John was like as a father, but I think A LOT of the dysfunction came from Patty, who isn't their mother. At any rate, all the people close to the Ramseys seem, unfortunately, very tight lipped. If it weren't for the housekeeper and the beauty pageant mom, I doubt we'd know anything about these people. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

His older children were QUITE a bit older. I don't know that they ever lived in the house with his second wife and youngest two children. It still might be interesting to see what John was like as a father, but I think A LOT of the dysfunction came from Patty, who isn't their mother. At any rate, all the people close to the Ramseys seem, unfortunately, very tight lipped. If it weren't for the housekeeper and the beauty pageant mom, I doubt we'd know anything about these people. 

John Andrew Ramsey lived with them when school was in session. He attended university in Boulder.  A rope was found in his room that the Ramsey's claim wasn't theirs.  Lou Smit made a big deal about JAR  bed having a dust ruffle sticking out, claiming that this is where the intruder hid.  

[TattleTeeny]

Because I am clearly obsessed (you all get it, I'm sure), I am now wondering if it is at all possible, if Burke did this in the way that the CBS show described, that he doesn't even know for sure that he did? Bear with me here. He was a young kid and perhaps through relentless convincing by his parents, repression due to the trauma of it all, whatever (even, say, hypnosis or something if you want to go down a really conspiracy-driven road!), he has blocked this out? Could he be truly married to the intruder scenario? Could he take a polygraph today with inconclusive results? I cannot understand why on earth he would even do the Dr. Phil show after not having appeared on anything else over the years if he is completely aware of what went down. Obviously I speculate here (and probably need a break!) but I do wonder. 

[FormerMod-a1]

I was kind of wondering if he did it, but didn't know it either, but not the scenario you laid out.  More in the lines of he knew he yanked on her shirt, and whacked her on the head and then she stopped bothering him so he went on his merry way.  Sometimes kids don't put two and two together or fully understand the consequences of their actions.  He maybe knew he hurt her, but that was it.  And then with everything else that happened, never was told or realized or whatever.  

[TattleTeeny]

Yeah, that's what I mean for the most part. Did this happen, parent(s) find out, send Burke to his room*, and take care of business? I have doubts that it was Burke who took her to the basement, and if he's hit her before with a golf club and experience little to no consequences...

I feel like it's entirely possible that he has never quite understood the gravity or outcome of an "innocent" crack over the head.

* This part makes me think about "What did you find?" though...which I am still not 100% certain I heard. 

[AZChristian]

8 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I was kind of wondering if he did it, but didn't know it either, but not the scenario you laid out.  More in the lines of he knew he yanked on her shirt, and whacked her on the head and then she stopped bothering him so he went on his merry way.  Sometimes kids don't put two and two together or fully understand the consequences of their actions.  He maybe knew he hurt her, but that was it.  And then with everything else that happened, never was told or realized or whatever.  

This thought has crossed my mind, too.  It would help explain if that's Burke's voice at the end of the 911 call asking, "What did you find?"  If he hit her but didn't finish her off with the garrotte, he could probably pass a lie detector test if asked, "Did you kill JonBenet?"  And it would explain John yelling at him to get back to his room.  They had taken over the cover-up to save him, assuming that JB's head injury was fatal.  Then when they realized she was still alive but would not survive (or they had gone too far in the cover-up to allow them to just call for an ambulance), they took the unimaginable step of finishing her off and then creating the elaborate ruse of a kidnapping.  

This, of course, is conjecture and unimaginable.  But this whole case reeks of suspicious activity on the part of the Ramseys.

I was watching Dateline last night.  It was the case of a murder of a wealthy businessman in Washington State.  The person in the house with him when an intruder shot him was his wife.  She made eye contact with the intruder (who was wearing a mask), but he did not even shoot at her, although he put 6-7 bullets in the husband.  The police thought the wife's behavior was strange, but they immediately took her to the police station - while the crime scene was still under investigation.  She didn't have the option of saying, "Oh, I'm so distraught that I can't possibly be interviewed right now.  Check back with me in a couple of days after I have a lawyer."  (She was innocent, BTW, but the cops at first thought she did it.)

[TattleTeeny]

I was listening to a podcast by two people (not investigators or any kind of crime pros), one of which is a mom. She mentioned that John's remark during an interview--"We're not angry...we just want to know why" (or something to that effect)--has a very particular ring of speaking to a child who's done something wrong. I have always thought it crazy to not be angry about this but kind of attributed it as a tenet of their faith, I guess.

I also have wondered if John was let in on the goings-on after the ball was rolling, so to speak. His melatonin, the fact ("fact"?) that he went to bed before Patsy did... I have no real reason to believe he's less culpable but sometimes it seems like he is a more "removed' from it than Patsy.

[ghoulina]

I was kind of wondering if he did it, but didn't know it either, but not the scenario you laid out.  More in the lines of he knew he yanked on her shirt, and whacked her on the head and then she stopped bothering him so he went on his merry way.  Sometimes kids don't put two and two together or fully understand the consequences of their actions.  He maybe knew he hurt her, but that was it.  And then with everything else that happened, never was told or realized or whatever.  

 

I tend to believe something like this happened. I wonder if he didn't just leave her, and his parents (one parent?) were coming down to see what all the commotion was, as he was going up. I can see him saying he hurt Jon Benet, and then banishing him to his room. This fits with Burke being heard on the 911 tape saying., "What DID you find?" I really do wonder how much he knew about the final result of that night, and when.

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I also have wondered if John was let in on the goings-on after the ball was rolling, so to speak. His melatonin, the fact ("fact"?) that he went to bed before Patsy did... I have no real reason to believe he's less culpable but sometimes it seems like he is a more "removed' from it than Patsy.

I can see that. The cover-up was so the opposite of cohesive, I've often thought two people were staging things while not consulting each other. I can see Patsy finding JB. I don't believe she ever went to bed that night. Mind racing, trying to figure out how to "fix"this, starts to stage some of it herself, then goes to get John to help or he wakes up and finds her. 

Patsy's jacket fibers were all over the crime - under the duct tape that was across JB's mouth, all over the painting easel (or whatever it was), I think wrapped up with the rope too? I definitely think she had more to do with the staging than anyone else. 

Kind of OT, but I read this morning in Kolar's book that Patsy was asked to bring in the sweater she was wearing under that jacket, so they could study the fibers in more detail. The one she brought in looked brand new and didn't match the fibers found inside the lining of her jacket. That seems very deceptive, to me, not the actions of someone trying to help find her daughter's killer.

[Joe Jitsu913]

On 10/15/2016 at 11:52 AM, TattleTeeny said:

I was listening to a podcast by two people (not investigators or any kind of crime pros), one of which is a mom. She mentioned that John's remark during an interview--"We're not angry...we just want to know why" (or something to that effect)--has a very particular ring of speaking to a child who's done something wrong. I have always thought it crazy to not be angry about this but kind of attributed it as a tenet of their faith, I guess.

I also have wondered if John was let in on the goings-on after the ball was rolling, so to speak. His melatonin, the fact ("fact"?) that he went to bed before Patsy did... I have no real reason to believe he's less culpable but sometimes it seems like he is a more "removed' from it than Patsy.

Coupled with John Andrew Ramsey's (John's eldest son)  statement to police that the killer deserves "forgiveness". It makes it sound like they almost have compassion for the killer.

 

I believe the closest anyone will ever get to a confession is Patsy's statement to one of her friends the day Jonbenet was found:

 

"Can you fix this for me?  We didn't mean for this to happen. " 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Joe Jitsu913

[ghoulina]

She also said to someone that she'd have nothing left to live for if she lost Burke. I think these were subconscious utterances coming from a woman who knew one child had killed the other. 

 

I also read in Kolar's book last night that John apparently told Melinda's husband that he found JB at 11 am. When pressed about this time (because it was at 1 that Arndt asked Ramsey to check out the house, and JB was found minutes later), the husband was certain John told him 11. Now why would he say that? That was during the time that John was "missing" according to Arndt. I wonder if he went down there, preparing to "find" her, but changed his mind for some reason. Or was he doing more staging? And the confusion of the day made him mis-remember which time her went down there? 

There were many odd things said, and discrepancies within the various statements. 

[Ilovecomputers]

The local bookstore was sold out of Foreign Faction so I'll have to order it online.  I watched Part II again and was struck by Burke's odd interview with the psychologist two weeks after the murder.  When asked about how he learned about JonBenet's death, he told the psychologist his father had found "it" in the basement.  It was rather shocking to see how he reacted to the picture of the bowl of pineapple.  I'm not suggesting Gestapo tactics should have been used, but I do think the doctor dropped the ball with Burke.  I realize she was trying to build rapport, but if she had pressed him about his "secrets" and about the pineapple, one wonders what might have come out.

Why does John Ramsey's voice always sound like he's been sucking on helium?

[ghoulina]

Um guys. You have to read Foreign Faction. I'm about 75% done with it, and later in the book, Kolar starts investigating sexually aggressive behaviors in children, and it turns out that these untoward things are a LOT more common than you would think. Scatalogical behavior is very often tied in. No wonder he had warning bells going off in his head. 

Apparently the Paughs (Patsy's parents) had bought some behavioral books for the family shortly before this happened. I found that interesting. 

Another thing that is interesting is timing. The housekeeper they had BEFORE Hoffman-Pugh was the one who first mentioned feces smearing, and it apparently happened around the time Patsy was very ill with her first bought of cancer. 

The time Burke his JB with the golf club was about 2 days after her birthday. 

This incident took place the day after Christmas/Christmas night - depending on exact timing. 

Now what does that all tell you? 

 

I thought I knew most of this case before reading FF, but Kolar really starts putting it together in an incredibly convincing way towards the end. It's a shame Mary Lacy had her head up her ass and refused to listen to him. And I would really love to know what was in the family's medical records, that they were allowed to withhold from the DA, grand jury, etc. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by ghoulina

[AZChristian]

I just can't forget that the grand jury VOTED TO INDICT John and Patsy in such a way that it looks like they were charging them with not protecting JonBenet from an in-house abuser.  There was only one other person in that house.

And still, Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy FAILED in their elected duty.

Edited October 18, 2016 by AZChristian

[Ilovecomputers]

2 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

And still, Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy FAILED in their elected duty.

Yes, not only did Mary Lacy fail but she CLEARED the entire family prematurely.  What is Mary Lacy up to these days? 

[ari333]

What's the point of a grand jury voting to indict if the DA can just ignore it... veto it..

[pamplemousse]

2 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

Yes, not only did Mary Lacy fail but she CLEARED the entire family prematurely.  What is Mary Lacy up to these days? 

I can't be bothered to google it, but probably in a higher position of authority. That's what tends to happen to ignoramuses in public office -- they just keep moving on up. Perfect example is Alex Hunter, the DA with an allergy of going to court.

[ari333]

Pineapplegate: Burke was afraid to say that he recognized his favorite fruit in a bowl when shown a photo of it. Yikes. FLAG.

Pineapple was found in JB's GI tract, but her fingerprints were not on the bowl or spoon. She grabbed a piece imo.

Someone wiped the flashlight down pretty well. NO FINGERPRINTS? Strange. .... or not... Also, as for the older son giving the flashlight to a millionaire father/family as a gift - I found that weird.  I also found it weird that they had planned to give the niece panties as a Christmas gift. Maybe I am weird.

[ari333]

How are we, the public, able to see Burke's interview with that... Dr? social worker? whoever it was? He was a nine year old. Why weren't the parents allowed to be there? Is that not a private interview? (if it were a doctor, IDK) I'm confused.

However, as I mentioned, he gives me chills in the interviews as a child and as an adult  I think he hit JB and accidently killed her. .... deliberately hit her, but perhaps didnt' intend to kill her.

[doodlebug]

13 minutes ago, ari333 said:

How are we, the public, able to see Burke's interview with that... Dr? social worker? whoever it was? He was a nine year old. Why weren't the parents allowed to be there? Is that not a private interview? (if it were a doctor, IDK) I'm confused.

However, as I mentioned, he gives me chills in the interviews as a child and as an adult  I think he hit JB and accidently killed her. .... deliberately hit her, but perhaps didnt' intend to kill her.

I'm pretty sure the interview that has been released was done at the request of the Boulder PD/family services.  That's why it was videotaped.  Since a minor child in the household was presumably raped and definitely murdered, childrens' services would automatically get involved to be sure the other child was safe and he would be interviewed by himself in case he would have information on abuse, etc and his parents' presence might intimidate him and prevent the parents from answering for him or otherwise interfering.  The court would have appointed a guardian ad litem to represent Burke's interests who would've been watching the interview and could stop it immediately if there was concern about his safety during the interview process.

Since it wasn't a therapy session, no doctor/patient privilege.  It was part of an ongoing murder investigation and the property of the authorities.  I believe it was only released in the past few years after a freedom of information request by the news media. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by doodlebug

[Joe Jitsu913]

RE: the DNA under JBR's fingernails- keep in mind that a contaminated pair of nail clippers were used to collect evidence. The nail clippers had been used on other bodies as well and were not sterilized. I'm not well read on the DNA evidence in this case but I do know that any evidence found in her fingernails was contaminated. 

[SSAHotchner]

On 10/18/2016 at 3:53 PM, ari333 said:

On 10/18/2016 at 2:54 PM, ari333 said:

Pineapplegate: Burke was afraid to say that he recognized his favorite fruit in a bowl when shown a photo of it. Yikes. FLAG.

Pineapple was found in JB's GI tract, but her fingerprints were not on the bowl or spoon. She grabbed a piece imo.

Someone wiped the flashlight down pretty well. NO FINGERPRINTS? Strange. .... or not... Also, as for the older son giving the flashlight to a millionaire father/family as a gift - I found that weird.  I also found it weird that they had planned to give the niece panties as a Christmas gift. Maybe I am weird.

No, I think those are weird gifts too, especially for millionaires.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, SSAHotchner said:

No, I think those are weird gifts, too, especially for millionaires.

In his defense, I don't think John Ramsay's son, who was in his early to mid 20's at the time, was a millionaire.  And, since his father owned at least 3 large homes and flew a private jet between them; I don't think John Ramsay needed much from his kid.  Maybe they had a price limit for gifts from the kids, lots of families do.

I believe Patsy said that Jonbenet picked out the panties for her cousin when they were shopping, she got some of them at the same time and wanted her cousin to have some that matched hers, which sounds like the sort of thing a little kid would want to do.  I doubt it was the only thing they got for her.

Edited October 20, 2016 by doodlebug
computer glitch

[ghoulina]

8 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I believe Patsy said that Jonbenet picked out the panties for her cousin when they were shopping, she got some of them at the same time and wanted her cousin to have some that matched hers, which sounds like the sort of thing a little kid would want to do.  I doubt it was the only thing they got for her.

Yea, I can see that. The weird part comes in where JB is wearing those much larger panties. And the rest of the pack is missing. 

 

Re: DNA. I finished Kolar's book a few nights ago, and it turns out there were SIX different examples of touch DNA found on JB, her clothing, the rope, etc. Six separate sources. So....either SIX people broke in that night and had a hand in killing this little girl, or we come to the conclusion that touch DNA is very easily transferred and it could be explained as being left behind by workers in a factory, sales people at a store, etc. Anything really. The DNA means nothing to me. 

[starri]

Unless there were six members of the small foreign faction there.  It's possible.

[ghoulina]

I find it hard to believe that 6 people were in that house that night. Neighbors not noticing ONE? Maybe. Six? I doubt it. And all 6 of them were very petite, enough to fit through that window? And six people were able to remain so quiet that no one heard them tromping around down there? I just don't buy it. 

[Chai]

I don't believe it either. Six people couldn't have left nothing of themselves behind. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, starri said:

Unless there were six members of the small foreign faction there.  It's possible.

Maybe they were representing the Lollipop Guild from Oz?

[AZChristian]

Kolar went off wacky for a brief couple of pages in his book and opined that perhaps the "small foreign faction" was comprised of six very skinny acrobatic little people from a European circus.  He was (tongue-in-cheek) being very literal about the "small" and "foreign" parts of the description.  He figures that's the only way six people could have handled the "kidnapping."

[starri]

26 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Kolar went off wacky for a brief couple of pages in his book and opined that perhaps the "small foreign faction" was comprised of six very skinny acrobatic little people from a European circus.  He was (tongue-in-cheek) being very literal about the "small" and "foreign" parts of the description.  He figures that's the only way six people could have handled the "kidnapping."

Sounds perfectly plausible to me.

[Mabinogia]

I'm leaning towards the seven dwarves, minus sleepy who was too tired to participate.

Really, if you can't say that six people broke in than you can't say that any particular set of touch DNA is more important than any other.

[AZChristian]

Did anyone else watch the JonBenet movie on Lifetime last night?  It was dramatized, and based on the book by Steve Thomas, the lead investigator on the case.  I happened to be just finishing the book as it was airing, so I found it very interesting.  So many people discount the Boulder police as incompetent.  Thomas admits some rookie mistakes were made - especially the first day at the house.  But they were constantly hampered by the District Attorney's office.

Many outside agencies - the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, police departments throughout the country, attorneys, the Georgia District Attorney, etc. - were dumbfounded about the fact that the Boulder Police couldn't even get the DA to approve a search warrant for the Ramseys' telephone and credit card records.  That type of thing should have been an automatic approval within 48 hours.  And these types of roadblocks were a constant in the case.

One of the most telling details is this.  Alex Hunter ran his campaign for DA on a promise that he would NOT be heavy-handed in plea bargaining, as his predecessor (the then-DA) was.  The prior DA had a record of plea bargaining 65% of charges during his tenure.  Alex Hunter's tenure took that number to somewhere between 97% to 99.3%.  They NEVER took a case to court, which is why they didn't want to take the Ramsey case to court.  They had no idea how to function in a courtroom.

One true case:  A man had slashed the throat of another and then took off.  The victim survived.  The slasher ended up hiding out in St. Croix for 11 years.  When he finally came back to the States, the Boulder DA's office - under the leadership of Alex Hunter - plea bargained the attempted murder charge down, and the slasher ended up with a sentence of 3 years ON PROBATION, which he was allowed to serve IN ST. CROIX.

No wonder the Ramseys walked away.  They and their attorneys were politically and financially connected to the DA's office, and they were driving the train.

[Joe Jitsu913]

11 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Did anyone else watch the JonBenet movie on Lifetime last night?  It was dramatized, and based on the book by Steve Thomas, the lead investigator on the case.  I happened to be just finishing the book as it was airing, so I found it very interesting.  So many people discount the Boulder police as incompetent.  Thomas admits some rookie mistakes were made - especially the first day at the house.  But they were constantly hampered by the District Attorney's office.

Many outside agencies - the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, police departments throughout the country, attorneys, the Georgia District Attorney, etc. - were dumbfounded about the fact that the Boulder Police couldn't even get the DA to approve a search warrant for the Ramseys' telephone and credit card records.  That type of thing should have been an automatic approval within 48 hours.  And these types of roadblocks were a constant in the case.

One of the most telling details is this.  Alex Hunter ran his campaign for DA on a promise that he would NOT be heavy-handed in plea bargaining, as his predecessor (the then-DA) was.  The prior DA had a record of plea bargaining 65% of charges during his tenure.  Alex Hunter's tenure took that number to somewhere between 97% to 99.3%.  They NEVER took a case to court, which is why they didn't want to take the Ramsey case to court.  They had no idea how to function in a courtroom.

One true case:  A man had slashed the throat of another and then took off.  The victim survived.  The slasher ended up hiding out in St. Croix for 11 years.  When he finally came back to the States, the Boulder DA's office - under the leadership of Alex Hunter - plea bargained the attempted murder charge down, and the slasher ended up with a sentence of 3 years ON PROBATION, which he was allowed to serve IN ST. CROIX.

No wonder the Ramseys walked away.  They and their attorneys were politically and financially connected to the DA's office, and they were driving the train.

I watched it.  Not as  good as "Perfect Murder,  Perfect Town " IMO.  The Boulder PD had ask for permission in writing to obtain interviews,  evidence etc from the Ramseys.  The Ramseys had friends in high places and were well connected in Boulder and Atlanta.  Any Joe Schmoe would have been thrown in jail the first day. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Joe Jitsu913

[Ilovecomputers]

I didn't see the movie, but I am halfway through Thomas' book. I like all the little details in the book and I think it is better written than "Foreign Faction." 

AZChristian, do you have the CBS app?  I have been wondering if there was a full version of The Case of JB anywhere...

[AZChristian]

I don't have apps.  I'm happy with FB and IMDB in that department.  

I do agree that Thomas' book is better written than "Foreign Faction."  I'm tempted to read one of the books written in support of the Ramseys just to see how they go about denying that they were ducking the Boulder police.

To quote F. Scott Fitzgerald:  

“Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. They think, deep in their hearts, that they are better than we are because we had to discover the compensations and refuges of life for ourselves. Even when they enter deep into our world or sink below us, they still think that they are better than we 
are. They are different. ”  (emphasis added by me)

[TattleTeeny]

You guys, I am having a memory lapse regarding John Ramsey's super-weird call to his pilot that morning, and his even weirder "business meeting" excuse, even though it had already been established that the family was leaving for a vacation that day. Can anyone tell me if the cops (or anyone) ever asked how this Michigan trip was possible if he'd already had scheduled a business meeting that was so very pressing that even his daughter's murder took a back seat, yet so trivial that he...

double-booked with a trip to Charlevoix?

I'm not asking if there was a business meeting, just if anyone on the scene said, "What the hell are you talking about? You guys just said you were leaving for vacation!"

Edited November 10, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[AZChristian]

From everything I've seen or read, they simply told him that it was important for them to stay in Boulder to assist with the investigation of JB's murder.  I don't think anyone is recorded as having said, "What is it . . . your vacation or your all-of-a-sudden important meeting that's more important than your daughter?"  

[TattleTeeny]

It's so weird! Business meeting you can't miss? But you were gonna miss it because vacation! And, OK, then--let me do the math here:

Family Vacation > "Business Meeting" (which apparently is insignificant enough that  he, I guess, forgot about it when arranging his departure for vacation?)

BUT...

Dead Daughter < "Business Meeting" 

OK, John Ramsey.

[AZChristian]

I think I may break down and read more books to see if they ever explain that.

[TattleTeeny]

It just seems like a big thing that the cops would really zero in on, and if that were the case, we'd know it. I just have no recollection of anyone questioning this so-called meeting.

[AZChristian]

I also can't track down whether the cops ever checked out the golf bag in the basement.  When the cops gave unbelievable permission for Patsy's sister to pick up some clothes from the house for the funeral, she literally filled a car with all kinds of stuff.  And John asked her to get his golf bag out of the basement (which she did not do).  Would have been a great place to hide duct tape, rope, etc.  And WHY would he need his golf clubs in December/January?  Even if they were going to be in Georgia, probably would have been too cold to play, and he was only known to play once or twice in more than a year prior to the murder.

[TattleTeeny]

YES! I brought up the same exact thing in here not too long ago too! It was just a sudden "POOF!" moment I had during the barrage of recent shows!

Edited November 11, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Joe Jitsu913]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

I also can't track down whether the cops ever checked out the golf bag in the basement.  When the cops gave unbelievable permission for Patsy's sister to pick up some clothes from the house for the funeral, she literally filled a car with all kinds of stuff.  And John asked her to get his golf bag out of the basement (which she did not do).  Would have been a great place to hide duct tape, rope, etc.  And WHY would he need his golf clubs in December/January?  Even if they were going to be in Georgia, probably would have been too cold to play, and he was only known to play once or twice in more than a year prior to the murder.

I'm glad you mentioned Patsy's sister,  Pam.  She's definitely a nutter. I have a feeling all of the Paugh women are nuts.  Pam was allowed to wear a Boulder PD jacket and gloves and take whatever she wanted out of that house. The Boulder PD kept a generic list of items taken from the house. She gets in the police car after filling it full of the Ramsey's belongings (which possibly included the murder weapon). She starts going into hysterics about her gloves: "Get this off of me!" then proceeds to brag about being a millionaire (she actually worked at a make-up counter).  Meanwhile,  whilst bragging about being a millionaire,  she asks the cops to buy her some food from McDonalds. 

 

This is all from Steve Thomas' book. 

[Ilovecomputers]

I may have to break down and buy Lawrence Schiler's book. AZChristian, I have read two books on this and I don't believe the golf bag was ever examined before it was removed from the house. 

Did John Andrew live with his mom?  I'm wondering if he was able to visit more than the average person because Daddy had so much money.  There was unanimous expert opinion that little JonBenét had experienced chronic sexual abuse and in the weeks before her death her bed wetting and soiling returned. Maybe she was stressed and/or wanted to repel John Andrew.  First I thought maybe Burke was abusing her, but when I learned that the suitcase contained a blanket containing John Andrew's semen and a Dr. Seuss book, alarm bells began to ring.  Steve Thomas' book says during Burke's psychological interview (I didn't see it in the excerpt) that Burke "bristled" when the psychologist drank out of his pop can.  So I picture a scenario where on Christmas night John and Burke assembled his new toy, John said he helped Burke get ready for bed, John took something so that John fell asleep very quickly.  Burke never did go to bed. Meanwhile, Patsy is still packing for the trip to Michigan and the cruise and Burke wants a snack.  He gets a bowl of pineapple.  JB hears Mom opening drawers, etc. and hears somebody in the kitchen and goes to see what's going on   She picks out a piece of fruit from Burke's bowl and he snaps. All week he's been hearing about how beautiful/special his sister is and he snaps.  He hits her with the flashlight.  Thomas' book says you can hear everything from anywhere in the house (or you could before Rev. Schuller 's daughter renovated).  Patsy had to have heard that.  I understand--I guess--that she wanted to protect her son but everything that happened after that defies explanation. One of the books I read suggested that the garrote was used because the killer didn't want to look at her face.  I'm sure John slept through all that.  Wonder what the statute of limitations is on aiding and abetting.