S02.E13: I Will

[shapeshifter]

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A newly "retired" Hodiak tracks down the serial killer who has been tormenting him for months, without the protection and authority of his police position. Manson sends Tex, Sadie, Emma and Patty to 10050 Cielo Drive, where they are swept up in one of the most infamous crimes in the country's history.  (Season Finale)

[helenamonster]

I thought the payoff to the serial killer mystery was kind of lame, but I am happy Billie wasn't killed, I like her (sad about her sister though, she didn't deserve that).

As someone who's very interested in the case, it's really annoying to see the whole thing with the Tate murders come together and for it to be just as mangled as I should have anticipated it would be (based on the flash-forwards). Linda Kasabian is nowhere to be found and has been replaced by Emma, a lot of the sequence of events were just wrong (the killers going in through the front door, blood in the nursery, etc.), throwing William Garretson under the bus (I mentioned in another thread that I've sort of always suspected he did hear something that night, but this was a little much)...idk, it's all so very bizarre and I'm really struggling to figure out what the point is. Not to mention that they seem to have totally forgotten about the LaBiancas. I'm just very confused about what this show is trying to accomplish in regards to the murders.

Really not surprised that Ken bit it. He's had it coming since day one.

One thing I did like was all the phone calls the station was getting in the aftermath of the murders. The whole thing really brought out the crazies and it felt very true to life, not just for these particular murders but any big crime (murder/kidnapping/disappearance) that makes national news.

[shapeshifter]

In spite of the disclaimer at the beginning of each episode...

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Inspired in part by historical events, this program contains fictitious characters, places, and circumstances.

...on this and other message boards there have been complaints about the show not staying true to the original Manson crime. As someone with only a passing knowledge of the incident, but with first hand knowledge of life as a young person at that time, deviations from the "facts" don't bother me, but I seem to be in the minority. I'm surprised that with season 2 they didn't emphasize the disclaimer more, like maybe with a voice over reading it. It might not have mattered, but since a 3rd season seems unlikely, I'd be curious to see if it mollified the disenchanted, and, more importantly, if it would have helped ratings. Probably not the later.

So when Schafe phones Mulder Sam to say "we're in trouble," is that because of the locket? I know Schafe was high on heroin, but that seems like a pretty big leap, given that Sam was in the habit of giving it to junkies. And why does Schafe have so much blood on him?

I wonder if Emma would have come to her senses in time about Charlie if she had not had shock treatments? It seemed like she was so close. Mary too, but she seemed to be more under the influence of battered wife syndrome. 

I know the networks have been airing double episode finales --presumably because of preempts for the Olympics-- but airing these two episodes together seemed to almost make the crime boring rather than build tension. 

[thuganomics85]

Fare thee well, Ken!  You survived last season's cliffhanger, but no way your coming back from that!  So, is he the first person that Charlie actually killed with his own hands?

In the end, the mysterious photo guy was a former collar of Hodiak, who blamed him because his wife had died while he was in prison.  At least Billie didn't die and she talked Hodiak down from just murdering him, but not much of a happy ending for anyone involved in that.

So, the big murder finally happens, which was about as brutal as can be expected, and Emma was clearly not liking it.  Of course, Charlie had to get all pissed about it because they used guns and didn't put enough words on the walls to make it look like a race war.  Classic Charlie!  You can't ever satisfy him!

Enjoyed the Charmain and Cutler showdowns, even if it seems more like a set-up for any potential future season.

Shafe is still on heroin, still separated from his wife, and now found the amulet Hodiak gave Emma, and is freaking the fuck out.  Poor Shafe.

Will be stunned if NBC gives this another season, after dumping it to Saturday, but stranger things have happened, I guess.  And it does strike me as a show that might be able to find another home, if NBC drops the hammer.

[Dowel Jones]

Well, I imagine all the principal actors had to take some long showers after these episodes.  And the construction crews, having to take down the sets. Ugh.

Was that Beausoleil who was arrested sleeping in his car?  Was he murdered later, or am I confused about identities?

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

...So, the big murder finally happens, which was about as brutal as can be expected, and Emma was clearly not liking it.  Of course, Charlie had to get all pissed about it because they used guns and didn't put enough words on the walls to make it look like a race war.  Classic Charlie!  You can't ever satisfy him!...

I was expecting Charlie to snarl, "If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself."

 

 

4 HOURS AGO, DOWEL JONES SAID:

Was that Beausoleil who was arrested sleeping in his car? Was he murdered later, or am I confused about identities?

Yes, it was him in the car, and he had the blood from the killings on his arm and sleeve, but the last we saw the policeman was yelling at him to get out of the car, so the cop could be dead if he didn't succeed in arresting him.

Edited September 11, 2016 by shapeshifter

[GodsBeloved]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So when Schafe phones Mulder Sam to say "we're in trouble," is that because of the locket? I know Schafe was high on heroin, but that seems like a pretty big leap, given that Sam was in the habit of giving it to junkies. And why does Schafe have so much blood on him?

Shafe said I'm in trouble Sam. In the flash forward in episode 4 we see Brian shoot up then call Sam. I assumed he was finally reaching out to Sam because he had fallen off the wagon. In this episode we see him call Sam then shoot up so I'm not sure why Brian said he was in trouble.

I think all the blood is from when Shafe got down on the floor and retrieved the necklace from under the couch. There was a pool of blood right there in front of the couch

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

In this episode we see him call Sam then shoot up so I'm not sure why Brian said he was in trouble.

OK, that's what I thought at first, too, but now I'm wondering if Shafe shooting up wasn't part of the collective flashbacks (Hodiak giving him the medallion, Hodiak later giving Emma the medallion)? Because bringing heroin with you to a crime scene  you're working on the off chance you'll need it seems a bit odd... (Although I missed a lot of the first episode, so if Shafe is using again, I guess it's possible.)

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

OK, that's what I thought at first, too, but now I'm wondering if Shafe shooting up wasn't part of the collective flashbacks (Hodiak giving him the medallion, Hodiak later giving Emma the medallion)? Because bringing heroin with you to a crime scene  you're working on the off chance you'll need it seems a bit odd... (Although I missed a lot of the first episode, so if Shafe is using again, I guess it's possible.)

From the first episode of the night we know Shafe would/did carry the heroin with him even when he went out on a call. Shafe started using again last week and that's how Vickory and Roy ended up at his house.

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I thought the payoff to the serial killer mystery was kind of lame, but I am happy Billie wasn't killed, I like her (sad about her sister though, she didn't deserve that).

Same here (on all points). I didn't expect to be satisfied, though, so I wasn't disappointed that it fizzed out. It was basically something to keep Hodiak busy until the Manson family finally fulfilled its awful destiny.

13 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I'm just very confused about what this show is trying to accomplish in regards to the murders.

The show tried to have it both ways, IMO, by being about the murders yet not being about the murders. The show is based on true events yet there are made-up events and characters. If the murders were more in the background, I don't think it would have mattered, but everything led up to them. So it didn't work so well, IMO.

I enjoyed the show, but I thought the actual murders were the weakest part, which is a little odd to write about one of the most notorious American crimes of the 20th century. The staging was effective, and you certainly got the horror of it all, but Emma being there badly undercut it for me. The audience didn't need a stand-in to show how awful it was. 

Having speculated earlier that Charmain might get shot, I was glad she was able to push back at her superiors and stand up for herself.

[reggiejax]

18 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

18 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Was that Beausoleil who was arrested sleeping in his car?  Was he murdered later, or am I confused about identities?

That was Bobby Beausoliel, and his arrest while driving Hinman's car was true to life, though not that bit where the cop sees him covered in blood. Beausoliel was pulled over and the cop ran the plates and they arrested him as they were on the lookout for Hinman's car. And Beausoliel was not murdered, he has spent every moment since that arrest in jail for Hinman's murder. 47 years now for doing the bidding of a two-bit, sack of shit like Charles Manson. 

[Dowel Jones]

Thanks.  I thought I had read some reference to Beausoleil's murder but I have never really took to investigating the story.  Maybe I'll read Bugliosi's book after this is done.

[helenamonster]

I think what bothers me the most about how this show handled the murders is that there are some details that they clearly worked very hard at getting exactly right. Steven Parent's murder was pretty much step-by-step how it went down. The staging of the other bodies (which, to be fair, are pretty much infamous now) was exact. But then they have the killers walk right through the front door, instead of having them cut through the screens in the nursery and go through the window, which is infinitely creepier, imo. So leaving the more egregious fictionalizations aside, I'm sort of left scratching my head at why they decided to be true to history on some things but just sort of shrug and go "whatever" at others.

Apropos of nothing, but I found it somewhat ironic that I chose to watch this last night as an alternative to all the 9/11 coverage elsewhere, which was really starting to get to me. Maybe because I was alive for 9/11 but not for this? Idk but there's a commentary about American culture in there somewhere.

[tennisgurl]

I always found that the best parts of this show was dealing with the issues of the 1960s, the stuff with the counterculture, the race and gender issues, the Vietnam war, stuff like that. It was surprisingly nuanced, and really interesting to see the main characters navigate all the changes in society, especially from Hodiak, a member of the Old Guard who is trying to figure out his place in this Brave New World, but also seeing the perspectives of Kristen, Bunchy, Charmain, Shafe, and the rest of the supporting cast. I loved all the stuff with the Panthers and Bunchy (RIP), who was always interesting and entertaining, and had a really complicated, fun, and even deep relationship with Hodiak. I know that the 60s as a decade has kind of been done to death, but this show has an interesting voice, and I will always have a big soft spot for that decade. 

The Manson stuff, on the other hand, was hit and miss. At its most interesting, it was about the dark side of the counter culture, and how the waves of social change led to both good and evil. At its worst, it was just weird and boring. This episode showed that issue. Many parts of the murder scenes were well done and creepy, but mostly it suffered for trying to shoehorn Emma into everything. Yeah, I never expected it to keep completely to what happened historically, but they certainly could have made one of the most infamous murders in American history a bit more...something. 

Yeah, that all could have gone better, but I still loved this season. And the music. Oh that wonderful 60s music. I especially loved Sugar Sugar in the start of the episode. Just such a sweet sappy bubblegum song that was huge during this turbulent time, in this episode about such horrible things. Its good stuff. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I always found that the best parts of this show was dealing with the issues of the 1960s, the stuff with the counterculture, the race and gender issues, the Vietnam war, stuff like that. It was surprisingly nuanced, and really interesting to see the main characters navigate all the changes in society, especially from Hodiak, a member of the Old Guard who is trying to figure out his place in this Brave New World, but also seeing the perspectives of Kristen, Bunchy, Charmain, Shafe, and the rest of the supporting cast. I loved all the stuff with the Panthers and Bunchy (RIP), who was always interesting and entertaining, and had a really complicated, fun, and even deep relationship with Hodiak. I know that the 60s as a decade has kind of been done to death, but this show has an interesting voice, and I will always have a big soft spot for that decade. 

The Manson stuff, on the other hand, was hit and miss. At its most interesting, it was about the dark side of the counter culture, and how the waves of social change led to both good and evil. At its worst, it was just weird and boring. This episode showed that issue. Many parts of the murder scenes were well done and creepy, but mostly it suffered for trying to shoehorn Emma into everything. Yeah, I never expected it to keep completely to what happened historically, but they certainly could have made one of the most infamous murders in American history a bit more...something. 

Yeah, that all could have gone better, but I still loved this season. And the music. Oh that wonderful 60s music. I especially loved Sugar Sugar in the start of the episode. Just such a sweet sappy bubblegum song that was huge during this turbulent time, in this episode about such horrible things. Its good stuff. 

Reading this post made me realize that they never showed a benign hippy commune to contrast with the Manson family. I wonder if that would have helped. Of course, if they did that, they'd have to cut something else, and I doubt they would've cut any of the Manson stuff, and I wouldn't want them to cut anything else, although I would've rather they worked in the homophobia separate from Manson.

I also loved the use of "Sugar Sugar" in this episode.

[Fable]

I really appreciated Kenny-Ken this episode.  For the most part, I couldn't stand him, but he really stepped up in the end, and I was actually rooting for him.  

I'm also glad the core three (Charmain, Brian and Sam) were on the same page at the end of the day.  

[helenamonster]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Reading this post made me realize that they never showed a benign hippy commune to contrast with the Manson family. I wonder if that would have helped. Of course, if they did that, they'd have to cut something else, and I doubt they would've cut any of the Manson stuff, and I wouldn't want them to cut anything else, although I would've rather they worked in the homophobia separate from Manson.

They did a little bit last season, with that episode where Hodiak made Shafe go undercover in a gay bar (because Hodiak had been undercover there before and the bartender recognized him). Hodiak arrested the people in the bar because it was his job as an officer of the law, but he never really seemed to care what consenting adults did on their own time. Shafe was disgusted by it, and Hodiak tried to point out that there were people in the world who were disgusted by Shafe and Kristen, and Shafe tried to argue that it wasn't the same because he couldn't help loving Kristen, while gay men chose to live that lifestyle. I actually really liked it because up until that point it felt like Shafe was supposed to be the all-enlightened youngster that was going to lead crusty old Hodiak into the new age, but it actually showed that he had his own hang-ups and prejudices as well.

[Margherita Erdman]

On September 10, 2016 at 11:01 PM, shapeshifter said:

...airing these two episodes together seemed to almost make the crime boring rather than build tension. 

It just felt like trying to stuff too much story into too little time so it was all jumbled together with no room to breathe. A disappointing end to a series I've otherwise enjoyed quite a lot.

On September 10, 2016 at 8:56 PM, helenamonster said:

I thought the payoff to the serial killer mystery was kind of lame...

...it's really annoying to see the whole thing with the Tate murders come together ...I'm just very confused about what this show is trying to accomplish in regards to the murders.

After such a complicated and buildup to both stories, with repeated drumbeats of taunts and teases for the former and flash-forwards to the latter, it really was a truncated and unsatisfying end to both. Felt like maybe the intention was to extend them both into season 3 (and therefore include the LaBianca murders? Solve the murder of the serial killer's wife as well, since I thought the mystery begged that question?), but the showrunners found out there wouldn't be a season 3 and needed to wrap everything up quickly.

On September 12, 2016 at 6:46 PM, tennisgurl said:

I always found that the best parts of this show was dealing with the issues of the 1960s, the stuff with the counterculture, the race and gender issues, the Vietnam war, stuff like that. It was surprisingly nuanced, and really interesting to see the main characters navigate all the changes in society, especially from Hodiak, a member of the Old Guard who is trying to figure out his place in this Brave New World, but also seeing the perspectives of Kristen, Bunchy, Charmain, Shafe, and the rest of the supporting cast. I loved all the stuff with the Panthers and Bunchy (RIP), who was always interesting and entertaining, and had a really complicated, fun, and even deep relationship with Hodiak. I know that the 60s as a decade has kind of been done to death, but this show has an interesting voice...

^^^ This, exactly this is why I fell in love with the show and stuck with it. IMO it really fell into a groove and offered something unique about this era, in spite of and not because of its take on the Manson story. I wish it had lasted long enough to get beyond the Manson stuff, beyond Emma, her family, and her Family.

[atlantaloves]

Ahhhhh bummer man, I just found out there will be no season 3....I've really enjoyed it, if only for David D's wonderful one liners, and, of course, the fact that he is such a handsome bad ass. Damn it. I was in college when these murders happened and remember it too well. I wish they could finish up the story. Oh well.

[izabella]

6 hours ago, Margherita Erdman said:

After such a complicated and buildup to both stories, with repeated drumbeats of taunts and teases for the former and flash-forwards to the latter, it really was a truncated and unsatisfying end to both. Felt like maybe the intention was to extend them both into season 3

Yes, I think the build up took too long, and is what sunk the show.  They should have ended the first season with the Tate murders, and then had Season 2 to deal with the investigations and other fall-out.  I think I understand what they were doing...the Manson murders were not THE focus of the show, but only one of the elements of the overall story about place and time.   But audiences probably were expecting it to be more about the Family, more accurate in the murders and events...basically, a different show.

[shapeshifter]

I wonder if there was some behind the scenes difference of opinion as to how much focus was to be on the Manson crime, and by compromising they left the audience without a clear understanding of the focus. 
By naming the series "Aquarius" they could have put the Manson story more in the background, which I think would've worked better.

[OpieTaylor]

I interpreted the ending with Shafe's discovery of the medal was to let us viewers know that Hodiak would know that Manson was involved, since Hodiak gave Emma the medal and he knew Emma was with Manson. So it explained in this fictional version how Manson got caught. 

Re: Hodiak's girlfriend (Billie?) and the serial killer - I had a hard time buying that she was so calm once Hodiak rescued her from the trunk. She had barely escaped death and her sister had been murdered. Yet she was able to walk right up to her sister's killer and stand there for awhile and not freak out. It also bugged me a bit that the show insisted on keeping her cleavage on display, even in the police station. If that were me, I'd be wrapped up tight in that blanket and probably a basket case!

[txhorns79]

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I really appreciated Kenny-Ken this episode.  For the most part, I couldn't stand him, but he really stepped up in the end, and I was actually rooting for him.

I felt bad for him, but thought he kind of deserved his fate.  He threw his lot in with someone who was clearly very disturbed, and had no compunction about threatening Ken's life last season.  Even worse, he brought his daughter back to this person and put her in a position to be an accomplice to a mass murder.  In a way, it's true to Ken's character, since he seemed to surround himself with these types of people, but I'm not really sure why he would think going back to Charlie would be a good idea.       

Has there been any official word on the cancellation? 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

...Has there been any official word on the cancellation? 

I don't know whether to believe this, here it's listed as renewed: http://www.hypable.com/2016-tv-shows-canceled-renewed/

Edited September 18, 2016 by shapeshifter

[dargosmydaddy]

Considering that list is from May, they might have considered it "renewed" for a second season (which was upcoming when the article was published), not a third.

[Milburn Stone]

On September 16, 2016 at 11:54 PM, OpieTaylor said:

I interpreted the ending with Shafe's discovery of the medal was to let us viewers know that Hodiak would know that Manson was involved, since Hodiak gave Emma the medal and he knew Emma was with Manson. So it explained in this fictional version how Manson got caught. 

I think I see where you're going with this, to explain why Shafe said "we're in trouble." (Which I didn't get at the time.) You're saying Shafe and Hodiak are in trouble precisely because the medallion will pin the crime on the Manson Family--the very same Manson Family that Shafe and Hodiak have been tracking for a year, yet did nothing about! When it comes out that the two of them had intimate working knowledge of the Manson Family and yet disregarded or were utterly clueless as to their violent potential, it won't look good for our heroes.

At least, that's what I think you're saying, and if so, it makes sense to me.

Like others, I hope this show gets picked up by Netflix or somebody, because despite its flaws, it had something going for it. Principally Duchovny, but not only Duchovny.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[GodsBeloved]

Why can't we delete posts?

Edited September 21, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[OpieTaylor]

9 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think I see where you're going with this, to explain why Shafe said "we're in trouble." (Which I didn't get at the time.) You're saying Shafe and Hodiak are in trouble precisely because the medallion will pin the crime on the Manson Family--the very same Manson Family that Shafe and Hodiak have been tracking for a year, yet did nothing about! When it comes out that the two of them had intimate working knowledge of the Manson Family and yet disregarded or were utterly clueless as to their violent potential, it won't look good for our heroes.

At least, that's what I think you're saying, and if so, it makes sense to me.

Like others, I hope this show gets picked up by Netflix or somebody, because despite its flaws, it had something going for it. Principally Duchovny, but not only Duchovny.

Well, actually, I didn't even hear Shafe say "we're in trouble," I just saw the medal. So I thought, "ah, so that's how Manson gets caught." But your interpretation is excellent, since it explains Shafe's comment!

[reggiejax]

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You're saying Shafe and Hodiak are in trouble precisely because the medallion will pin the crime on the Manson Family--the very same Manson Family that Shafe and Hodiak have been tracking for a year, yet did nothing about! When it comes out that the two of them had intimate working knowledge of the Manson Family and yet disregarded or were utterly clueless as to their violent potential, it won't look good for our heroes.

Isn't that medal a Saint Christopher's medal, which one can probably buy in bulk? Not sure how Shafe makes the leap that it was the medal Hodiak gave him.

As for Hodiak and Shafe tracking the Manson Family, season 2 clearly shows that, for the better part of a year and a half, they in fact were not tracking them. Except for Charlie contacting Hodiak when Emma went missing, there was no contact between the two. The drug investigation that Shafe and Charmaine went undercover for, only involved Manson peripherally. Roy, the biker, was who they were truly interested in, and he led them away from Manson. As far as the cops were concerned, Manson was just some sleazy ex-con playing hippie guru with some rather stupid youngsters.