Relationships in The Quad: What the Hells?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Relationships - romantic, friendships, antagonistic acquaintances, or otherwise - thread. 

This thread is for discussing all the different relationships - actual and/or perceived - and keeping the episode discussion threads from becoming too bogged down in debates about interpreted interactions, debating how characters view each other, or who prefers which *potential* romantic pairings, etc.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Yes, I realize the 'too bogged down in debates about interpreted interactions' is directed at myself, but instead of making everyone have to read through my "D/J OTP" love affair and interpreted scenes in the individual episode threads, I figure we'd make it a centralized area - while including all relationships together.  (I also had nowhere really acceptable [IE, an already created thread] to whine about something I read last night.....)

 

So, I stumbled across an interview that Michelle Lovretta gave after Schooled aired, and (if to be believed) she basically crushed my dreams of Dutch/John ever happening in canon.  In regards to a question about a (possible) upcoming conflict between Dutch & John, due to his burgeoning (at that point) relationship with Pawter, this was part of ML's response:

Quote

A huge part of this series for me is the core truth that John and Dutch are platonic soulmates, and both actors do really masterful work of maintaining that sibling vibe even as their characters break one another’s hearts a bit. I think in a lot of shows this tension would lead to a “…but wait, I really love Johnny, I’m just realizing it too late!” plot, but I have no desire to go there. As a result, I think we get some scenes and stories we don’t often see between male and female leads–loving, loyal, important, but with zero romance implied.

*crying emoji goes here*

I don't like it, but I'll accept it.  HJ-K & AA's character interactions on the show are very good, even in whatever relationship their characters do have, to keep watching just for those scenes.  But if D/J is meant to never happen, then there needs to be some guarantees and changes in the upcoming season(s).

•   First, Show must never go there again in terms of Dutch/D'avin, even if just doing the occasional 'bang buddy workout'.  It didn't work in the first season, and it won't work in the future.  I never personally bought into the 'lust' between them in season 1, and think they work a lot better just acting as friends, like we've seen for most of this 2nd season.
•   Secondly, if a [D/J] romance is not in the cards, then they really need to drop this "sibling vibe" stuff.  Between the looks, actions, and word choices going on in this "platonic soulmate" world they've got going on, it really plays off as too much of an incestuous vibe (IMO), which just makes it icky and uncomfortable.  If they really are just BFF's with an amazingly strong bond and nothing else, ok fine, but there has to be better ways of portraying this connection instead of with so many scenes that leaves a person wondering "these two really don't love each other romantically?  Are you absolutely sure?!".

 

Maybe things will change if the show goes on long enough, a little bit of hope never killed anyone.   While I will still watch, and ship D/J [but not as bro/sis] in my own mental fantasyland;  I must confess a little disappointment in this news (if ML is not lying about keeping Dutch&Johnny platonic forever).

Edited September 2, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[sjohnson]

There's no problem at all showing a Platonic relationship between a woman and a man. What you can't do is show a Platonic relationship when the partners are sexual beings who not only don't have another steady sexual relationship, but apparently don't want to have an intense emotional relationship with anyone else. That only works if one is not into sex at all, or there is some reason why one partner is unacceptable, such as ugliness, poverty, loser personality, age, radical difference in social stature, same sex, etc. Even if you manage to keep the superior partner from coming across as a user, you still have being a wonderful person who's been there for you mean nothing unless you feel like you're Romeo and Juliet. And then it makes them seem like nitwits who want to live in a Harlequin romance. 

But to me it seems perfectly obvious no matter what Lovretta says, it's going to be Dutch and Johnny at the end, no matter how strenuously the show denies it. It's like Pete and Myka on Warehouse 13 I think. I'll believe Lovretta when the diversionary partners aren't killed off like Pawter. (Alvis isn't in good health, in my estimation.)

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

But to me it seems perfectly obvious no matter what Lovretta says, it's going to be Dutch and Johnny at the end, no matter how strenuously the show denies it. It's like Pete and Myka on Warehouse 13 I think. I'll believe Lovretta when the diversionary partners aren't killed off like Pawter. (Alvis isn't in good health, in my estimation.)

After realizing that I somehow interpreted her words as "will never go there (with D/J)", I thought my dreams were all but over.  But after actually reading the quote and not seeing other words instead, she says "... I have no desire to go there (with D/J)".  So, while not exactly a bonfire, the pilot light is still flickering on it happening at some point.  After all, just because one does not desire to do something, does not mean it doesn't have to be done [at some point], for plot or fanservice in this case - who really desires having to cut out the favorite foods while on a diet, for example.

Another way to interpret it - this need to convince myself is like a disease, I can't stop - is that ML only meant no desire for it in that situation, IE Dutch realizing her feelings for him during Johnny & Pawter's relationship.  But now that Pawter has joined her mom & dad, that obstacle has been hurdled, so to speak. 

(re: our favorite Monk - I was debating on pointing out that if they really want to convince the 'true believers of D/J' that it will happen [and possibly sooner than later];  then Alvis won't survive the s2 finale tomorrow night.  As both Dutch & Johnny's {current} 'side relations' will be out of the picture)

Edited September 2, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[MissLucas]

Showrunners are lying liars who lie. Johnny and Dutch are the OTP of this show. Killing off Pawter has just confirmed it. Alvis might survive since whatever is going on between him and Dutch is not twu luv. His scarback calling seems more important to him anyway and good for him.

There's nothing wrong with having an OTP btw. if handled wisely. I can't say that's what Killjoys has been doing this season.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Gosh, here I was all swimming in my tears hours ago and now you two are saying my OTP is the direction the show is going, despite contrarian evidence.  Going by their scenes of interaction in the last 6 episodes, I truly thought Dutch/John was locked & loaded, just waiting for the trigger to be pulled;  before reading that interview I quoted and accepted the creator's words at face value,  

And while I do want my OTP to be canon (at some point), you are right MissLucas.  IF the interactions this season were the start of a build-up to a romance, then Dutch's character was mishandled.  Not only was she really needy, too quickly,  but her jealousy of Johnny/Pawter was in full swing before the J/P even started up. 

To be fair & honest, I prefer that Alvis stays alive, as to not limit cast regulars to basically just Pree, Khlyen & Fancy - was just wondering that if the D/J was on the near horizon, if he wouldn't see his way out 'Exit Stage Death' before the final credits rolled on this season, ala Pawter.

[sjohnson]

This show is really, really cheap and probably committed to killing off/exiting as many recurring characters as possible. It's possible Alvis will go off to some special monastery or take extra-special reborn virginity vows, but likely enough the actor has only so many checks left to collect. The line about Pree and a blaze of glory suggests that actor is heading home too. The dude with the hair has disposable written on his forehead. The Khlyen actor is safe anytime but season finale episodes, because he's so sexy and his character is so essential to the Dutch character, though. 

But the show is all about Dutch. Having an actual adult relationship, including sex with something like an equal, is not conducive to fantasy, either of the male sex object kind or the female identification kind. Thus Dutch/Johnny is the end game because the show isn't going to have a genuine dramatic choice like Dutch genuinely opting for a relationship. What we're seeing now is all Dutch angst. I wasn't convinced that Johnny betrayed Dutch by his work with Pawter, but the show thinks so. She's not being needy as far as the show is concerned, she's suffering undeservedly. It's all like how the show really does think Dutch is protective, not possessive. The show hung a lantern on this with Pree's "dwant" speech. 

Obviously this is my understanding. Others might I suppose interpret the "dwant" speech as a shout out about the dramatic irony, but I think that's kind of strained.

[MissLucas]

For me the problems lie less with Dutch and how I am supposed to see her in all this mess but more with the overall structure of the show. All this romantic angsting has pretty much taken over the show and pulled focus away from some of the IMO much more interesting plots: What's coming to the Quad and how much longer will the Nine be able to uphold their totally bonkers social system? Both plots were intriguing - especially once it became clear that sooner or later they will collide.

But instead we had to deal with Johnny's supposed betrayal and Dutch's emotions with regards to her work-husband. And that's just meh unless this show is really all about Dutch and her love-life. Sadly season one promised something different and much more alluring to my taste and so I feel let down at the end of this season.

As for having an OTP on the show: best way to handle it is to openly acknowledge it from the get-go instead of wasting three or fours seasons on tedious will-they-won't-they banter when everybody knows they will, let things evolve naturally incl. obstacles that don't come in the cheap form of a love-triangle - there are ways to keep characters apart without making them look like complete idiots. Good example (though not perfect): Farscape.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

All this romantic angsting has pretty much taken over the show and pulled focus away from some of the IMO much more interesting plots: What's coming to the Quad and how much longer will the Nine be able to uphold their totally bonkers social system?

I agree with this.  I don't mind romance in a show.  I like romance.  I especially like them when I see a couple that would be great together.  But in a show that isn't ostensibly a romantic drama or a soap, allowing romantic angst to overshadow or even .... flavor strongly... important plot developments can be annoying.  Sometimes it can work if incorporated well and sometimes it doesn't.  I think in this case it doesn't.  I am finding all the relationship stuff a little overwrought, tbh and get impatient with all the agita. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Until we learn more about what's in store - [which could be maybe at least 6-7 months from now] - I have to admit some disappointment in that the plot called for John feeling the need to run away at the end of this season, even if we got to see Clara again.  It just smacks of an artificially manufactured reason to max out the emotionally dramatic angst between Dutch & Johnny.

She literally had just spilled her guts to him that she couldn't function without him, that he "keeps the monster locked away"; oh, and his 'promise' to "(will) never leave her side".  I'm all for some believable and well-earned drama in my serious shows, but this just feels engineered for reasons that aren't really necessary and, honestly, mostly just tedious - as he'll (most likely) be back on the team near the very beginning of next season, anyways.

Not only that, but S1 ended with D'avin missing/captured and s2 began with searching for him.  Now we'll get the same [recycled] general plot-line (not knowing where one of their team is), but differing situations, with the ending of s2 and start of s3;  only John being the unaccounted for Jaqobis brother instead of D'avin.

Edited September 3, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Not only that, but S1 ended with D'avin missing/captured and s2 began with searching for him.  Now we'll get the same [recycled] general plot-line (not knowing where one of their team is), but differing situations, with the ending of s2 and start of s3;  only John being the unaccounted for Jaqobis brother instead of D'avin.

But while D'Avin just went 'missing' after his encounter with Khlyen at the end of S1 and nobody really knew where he was but they eventually figured out he was on Arkyn, Johnny is off on a quest with Clara and Lucy kind of knows what he is up to and will probably let Dutch/D'Avin know.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

8 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But while D'Avin just went 'missing' after his encounter with Khlyen at the end of S1 and nobody really knew where he was but they eventually figured out he was on Arkyn, Johnny is off on a quest with Clara and Lucy kind of knows what he is up to and will probably let Dutch/D'Avin know.

True in a sense, but Lucy doesn't know [at least exactly] where they went.   John & Clara themselves didn't have a pre-set destination in mind.  So, technically, that still counts as 'missing'.  Missing of his own volition, yes, but still missing nonetheless.

[FurryFury]

If the showrunner is not lying, I may actually return to watching the show - the idea of Dutch/Johnny doesn't appeal to me at all and it was one of the reasons I've dropped the show during this season. They never felt like anything other than platonic friends or even family to me. 

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

If the showrunner is not lying, I may actually return to watching the show - the idea of Dutch/Johnny doesn't appeal to me at all and it was one of the reasons I've dropped the show during this season. They never felt like anything other than platonic friends or even family to me. 

Nor to me, but portraying them as ride or die BFF soulmates also doesn't work because it effectively prevents them from having fulfilling and mature romantic relationships outside of each other. I didn't think Dutch was sexually jealous of Pawter, but she still wasn't okay with her pulling Johnny's focus. The only way Johnny could consider a future with Pawter was by lying to Dutch. Healthy!

Also, the resulting relationship triangle plot of deceit and miscommunication was way too soapy for my taste.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

12 hours ago, lordonia said:

Nor to me, but portraying them as ride or die BFF soulmates also doesn't work because it effectively prevents them from having fulfilling and mature romantic relationships outside of each other.

Absolutely correct - and most of my basis for thinking my OTP is (will be) canon before its all said and done.

As we saw this season, no matter whatever other personal things each of them had going on this season, they still always circled back to each other.   That and making statements like "you're my gravity / you're my thing / I love you / you keep the worst of me locked away & I am never leaving her side". 

I've never had - and never will - a 'platonic soulmate', so maybe I just don't get it and what it truly means.  But for my money, the D/J romantic undertones stopped being merely imagined hints and full on neon-arrows pointing out the hard facts by the time the last few minutes of 2.5 MtP aired.

[BkWurm1]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:32 AM, lordonia said:

Nor to me, but portraying them as ride or die BFF soulmates also doesn't work because it effectively prevents them from having fulfilling and mature romantic relationships outside of each other. I didn't think Dutch was sexually jealous of Pawter, but she still wasn't okay with her pulling Johnny's focus. The only way Johnny could consider a future with Pawter was by lying to Dutch. Healthy!

Also, the resulting relationship triangle plot of deceit and miscommunication was way too soapy for my taste.

I honestly don't think it was Pawter pulling Johnny's focus that upset Dutch, but that he did lie and keep what he was doing from her.  Why he didn't tell her was never clear to me but that's a different story.

I've been a hard core shipper my entire life, spotting the little looks and lines and moments that push me to pick my pairing in just about anything I watch and I got to say I have not gotten any kind of romantic destiny vibe between D/J.  This from someone that will still argue that Clark and Chloe were the OTP on Smallville and crossed my fingers and started hoping the first time I saw Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak together in a scene on Arrow.  I am verrrrrrry open to this kind of pairing  but I just don't feel it in how the show is being written.

Lucy and Johnny as written right now have a better chance of being end game and I can't help think Clara isn't that far off of a stand in for Lucy.  If the writers intended for end game with D/J then the "aren't you going to say goodbye" conversation would have happened between Johnny and Dutch.  As it is, we found out that his earlier lovely scene where he went in and brought Dutch comfort - while I'm sure genuine - actually turned out to be part of his manipulation to get them back on planet so he could avenge the woman he loved even if doing so meant he had to leave behind the only other people he loves.   

I can agree that being BFF soulmates would mess with a mature romantic relationship outside of each other but that's kind of the original purpose with D'avin.   He could slip in and not make it three's a crowd.   Dutch is damaged and broken and now so is John.  They may never end up in totally healthy romantic relationships. 

I never say never about any shows since you never know what behind the scenes changes or network interference could happen but right I don't see any signs written into the show that hint of any intentions of every going there and they've done a good enough job of building the non sexual relationship between Dutch and Johnny that I'm pretty sure I'd be squicked out if they so much as kissed.  

I don't know if I'm a D'avin/Dutch supporter but it does seem like the show is still writing them as the eventual end game.  I would be fine if I'm wrong about that though.  I'm very meh about him romantically. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I can agree that being BFF soulmates would mess with a mature romantic relationship outside of each other but that's kind of the original purpose with D'avin.   He could slip in and not make it three's a crowd.   Dutch is damaged and broken and now so is John.  They may never end up in totally healthy romantic relationships.

I am hoping for the best, but expecting to have to accept that D/J may never happen.  [I try to keep myself on a 'pessimistically-inclined realist' keel]

That said, if Du/D'a is the endgame, then I will be displeased and seriously squicked as a viewer.  Dutch made it clear that her non-Khlyen-created world revolves around John, what with the "you're my gravity / you're my thing" lines.  And then she literally tells him "I love you", if for nothing else than those reasons.  So basically it would come down to John being her everything, but D'avin keeping her bed warm.  *makes a 'yucky' face*  I also don't see the trio living comfortably on Lucy under those conditions, especially if John doesn't have a LI for himself (aside from Lucy, of course).

 

In regards to the last part of the quoted post, you basically described the Dutch & D'avin lusty UST and hook-up from season 1.  She was 'damaged and broken', he was too.  I guess what I'm saying is if that is meant as a strike or deterrent towards D/J, then it should count the same against Du/D'a.

[wanderingstar]

I have enjoyed the Dutch/Alvis pairing, although it feels like the show has really underplayed it this season.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

In regards to the last part of the quoted post, you basically described the Dutch & D'avin lusty UST and hook-up from season 1.  She was 'damaged and broken', he was too.  I guess what I'm saying is if that is meant as a strike or deterrent towards D/J, then it should count the same against Du/D'a.

No, their damage isn't a strike against them being paired together (that would be their lack of sexual interest in each other) but their broken status is a reason why they might never ever achieve a healthy romantic relationship, thus continuing to find a kind of pure emotional satisfaction with having each other in their lives while pursing a romantic relationship with others. 

13 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Dutch made it clear that her non-Khlyen-created world revolves around John, what with the "you're my gravity / you're my thing" lines.  And then she literally tells him "I love you", if for nothing else than those reasons.  So basically it would come down to John being her everything, but D'avin keeping her bed warm.  *makes a 'yucky' face*

Which I fear means that the show will mark her "growth" by pushing Dutch to be ok without Johnny.    They've already sort of started that with sending him away.  She has no choice but to learn to cope. 

I suspect the show will either decide in the long run that nothing needs to be changed or fixed (thus keeping D/J's vital bond but yeah, probably adding romantic love interests for the both of them) or they will show Dutch healing from her life long trauma by showing that she no longer needs Johnny in the same way.  

Man, I'm such a downer. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Ollie:  "What's your deal with Clara?  A wifey?  Boss?  Non-sexual life partner??"
Johnny:  "Actually that would be.. Dutch."

Gah.  You're killing me here with the continuing lack of a true definition on the J/Du relationship, Ms Lovretta.  Killing me (& I'm guessing with more joy than is appropriate).

For instance, how can one be a wife and a non-sexual life partner?  I say that because of John not clarifying that his life with Dutch only encapsulated the 'boss' and 'non-sexual life partner' descriptors.

[jelaine]

I thought he was just referring to non-sexual life partner.  While Dutch is the leader of their little trio, they seem to be partners as much as boss and employee.  To me at any rate.  I also just really like the idea that they can be that important to each and not have it be sexual or romantic.  Just because it's unique in fiction, or life, doesn't mean it can't be true.

[Impish Dragon]

5 hours ago, jelaine said:

To me at any rate.  I also just really like the idea that they can be that important to each and not have it be sexual or romantic.  Just because it's unique in fiction, or life, doesn't mean it can't be true.

 

I have such mixed feelings with regards to J/Du.   On the one hand I agree with you, I like the idea that two people can be that important to each other without sexual or romantic connotations.  It's so rare on tv and I'm always hoping more shows will show that kind of relationship.  On the other hand, the connection between Dutch and Johnny share plus the chemistry HJK and AA have with each other makes me route for them as a couple. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

6 hours ago, Impish Dragon said:

 

I have such mixed feelings with regards to J/Du.   On the one hand I agree with you, I like the idea that two people can be that important to each other without sexual or romantic connotations.  It's so rare on tv and I'm always hoping more shows will show that kind of relationship.  On the other hand, the connection between Dutch and Johnny share plus the chemistry HJK and AA have with each other makes me route for them as a couple. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am rooting for J/Du endgame because of the easy chemistry between the actors - and thus their characters - is so good.  I've watched on-screen romances that the participating parties couldn't hope to share even a fraction of the overall chemistry like there is between HJK & AA.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The answer provided is about as clear as muddy sewage, but here's the question and answer (TV Junkies & Michelle Lovretta, respectively) about possible future Du/D'a happenings, at least coming from his side of it....
 

Quote

TTVJ: One thing that’s been nice with Johnny being gone is that we’ve seen D’avin and Dutch really have to work together, and they’ve done well. However, according to Zeph it seems like D’avin still definitely cares for Dutch. Will we see him explore those feelings this season?

ML: Yeah. Definitely. With Johnny away, Dutch and D’av have come to rely on one another more than ever. I really like this quiet, stable companionship. It’s not flashy or super emo or tempestuous, it’s adult and real and a bit more playful this year. They build a really lovely connection that’s based on deep respect as warriors, even as they start to clash over tactics and leadership.

D’avin really cares about Dutch, but his love isn’t loud or demanding or possessive. That’s a boy’s love, and he’s past it. Now it’s just there, under the surface of all his protective decisions. What happened between them in the past still haunts him, so he’d need Dutch to make the first move if they were to try anything again… and he’d need whatever she’s offering to be worth it for both of them; it’s not like she has all the cards. Whether she’s ready or not this season to do that, well, time will tell, but I wont!

Trying to 'read between the lines' of this answer and others that she's provided to similar queries;  I don't think ML ever really wants to go there - pairing Dutch with either of the brothers, permanently - but I'll sure as heck root for that eventuality than seeing it end up D/D.  Dutch/D'avin share the same romantic chemistry that is equivalent to that of a dead fish.

Also, the question posed is honestly very non-specific.  I believe the words Zeph used were "he's into you".  "Cares for" could infer many different meanings, and most of them not in the romantic sense. 

[tessaray]

I looked at the date of the last post and was surprised no one had posted in this topic since last year, then realized even though there has been lots of relationship stuff this season - the only new thing was the introduction of Khlyen and Yalena in s4e07 flashbacks. 

Well, that aside... some comments that didn't really fit into the episode discussion. I've been missing Alvis and his easy, sexy relationship with Dutch. While I enjoy the D/J chemistry, I'm not a shipper because I can't ignore my instincts that there really isn't a future with them. Both Jaqobis brothers seem very traditional when it comes to family (John, for sure with Pawter showed us this and D'avin chose his kid over Dutch) and Dutch just isn't. Raised in a harem, as royalty and trained as an assassin, I just can't picture her in a traditional long-term monogamous relationship. Which it would have to be with a Jaqobis.

For the record, I can see Dutch in such a relationship with a person who was in every way her equal. Which I can almost buy with D'av. But not with Johnny, no matter how much they love each other. 

Anyway, my two cents as things stand right now.  

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Very good and interesting points, @tessaray.

I really want to argue and point out how wrong you are (about Johnny not being Dutch's 'equal'), but when looking at it without any biases, I can't find any holes in your belief system as it currently stands.  I wouldn't call Johnny 'lesser than' Dutch, he just has different strengths [mental vs physical] and is less 'damaged'.

I do appreciate you bringing up some of the points you raised, because it highlights the differences between the two. 

Johnny is a 'romantic', in that he's more about about long-term relationships than one-night stands.  Dutch views & uses sex more as stress relief 'itch scratching' than anything else.  It makes me think that they've been leaving small not-easliy-noticeable hints towards Dutch wanting to be with Johnny romantically, but just doesn't really know how to go about it and/or making it work for the long term.  For instance, in the 'micro leeches' scene during S02E09, when Dutch and Johnny were having a 'heart-to-heart', and she tells him "You always lead with you're big stupid heart.  And it scares me.".  I think it was less about it putting him in danger, and more about how she doesn't know how to - or because of the damage done with Khlyen's upbringing, doesn't believe she can - match that level of emotional intimacy consistently, for the long haul.

I guess this could technically slightly qualify as a spoiler, but in an interview given after 4.1, AA had to say this about a potential romantic interest for Johnny this season;  "....  but I will say at the very end of the season there’s a very surprising romantic scenario that I think will be big. Nobody will see it coming; let’s put it that way.".  So, of course I can't help but hold out (some) hope for D/J, but I can't think of another pairing of people on this show, that we know about, that could be labeled as "nobody will see it coming".  J & DSK is the only other pairing that would qualify, but I can't put into words how much I do not want that.
 

As foolish as this sounds, I kind of hate that HJ-K and AA have such amazing chemistry together if the relationship forever stays platonic, because even just as it is, they're connection & heart-eyes blow most pairings I see on TV shows and movies completely out of the water.

[tessaray]

I didn't mean to imply that Johnny wasn't Dutch's equal but more that he will follow her lead anywhere, which in turn adds a protective element to their relationship. Whereas with D'av - he is more her equal as a warrior. He will follow her too, but he also challenges her and makes her stronger.  Johnny makes her more human and more vulnerable, which is a serious drawback when the fates of worlds are at stake.  In peacetime, I would be rooting for D/J all day long, because I find their chemistry irresistible. But that would be a different show.

 

2 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I guess this could technically slightly qualify as a spoiler, but in an interview given after 4.1, AA had to say this about a potential romantic interest for Johnny this season;  "....  but I will say at the very end of the season there’s a very surprising romantic scenario that I think will be big. Nobody will see it coming; let’s put it that way.".  So, of course I can't help but hold out (some) hope for D/J, but I can't think of another pairing of people on this show, that we know about, that could be labeled as "nobody will see it coming". 

D/J wouldn't be a total shocker. Of course, if at the very end of S4, we see them together I'm going to assume it's a con or a hallucination, because that sounds like something this show would do.  (I'm so cynical.)

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

20 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I didn't mean to imply that Johnny wasn't Dutch's equal but more that he will follow her lead anywhere, which in turn adds a protective element to their relationship. Whereas with D'av - he is more her equal as a warrior. He will follow her too, but he also challenges her and makes her stronger.  Johnny makes her more human and more vulnerable, which is a serious drawback when the fates of worlds are at stake.  In peacetime, I would be rooting for D/J all day long, because I find their chemistry irresistible. But that would be a different show.

I apologize for implying that you implied things, was just explaining how I see it.  And I understand your meaning given in this quote, but I can't say as I look at it as a "wartime vs peacetime" type of situation.  But again, if you do look at it like that, you're reasoning is sound.

 

20 minutes ago, tessaray said:

D/J wouldn't be a total shocker. Of course, if at the very end of S4, we see them together I'm going to assume it's a con or a hallucination, because that sounds like something this show would do.  (I'm so cynical.)

Wouldn't be a total shocker to us, but it would be somewhat for casual fans.  And if there is one thing I never want, is a 'con-job' when it comes to D/J.  If its setup beforehand, for a 'job' or mission, then ok (like in 4.1).  But if they don't clue the audience in until after the fact, then I will be upset.  After spending so much time wanting to see it, getting to see it, and then they pull the rug out from under me?  

That would be a kick in the nuts.  With steel-toed boots.  And applied after having taken a running start & huge backswing of the leg to apply as much force as possible to the kick. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[lynny]

I binged this entire show's run in the last couple of weeks, never having seeing it before. I love it. But, I have never once looked at it and thought that Johnnny/Dutch were some OTP end game romantic pairing. I see them as family and best friends. But not lovers.

I am delighted that a show, especially a genre show is willing to put out a mature, non-sexual deep relationship between a woman and a man. It's too rare on TV. It makes me sad that this beautiful relationship isn't enough for so many watchers.

I don't think they should throw in a new love interest for Dutch in the last season, so if they must have her paired off romantically at the end, I'm all for D'av. But I would take Fancy, Turin, that reformed Hullen who looks like Grey Joy, Garad, Pree, Delle Seyah Kendry, Khylen, Aneela, Pip, Zeph, D'av's kid and a reanimated version of Pawter before I'd choose Johnny. Just let them be what they are. It's perfect.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

@lynny;

Even as 'just friends', Dutch & Johnny exude more PLI chemistry than 97.5% of all the rest of the romantic interests/couples in scripted entertainment that I've ever partaken of.  Those heart-eyes they give each other just screams "love & devotion".

Despite the given statements that the PTB & actors' profess D&J's 'only friends/soulmated-BFFs' status, I just can't help but ship them.  I guess its a personal flaw of mine, to want to see such chemistry put into more believable circumstances than just a platonic friend-zone.

I have absolutely nothing against them being (only) the best of friends - only just wish for more - but while a lot of people say they want them to stay the way they are because of the rarity, I ask why can't they be both?  The best of friends and lovers??  Talk about rare.

[lynny]

I don't see the "heart eyes" and the chemistry. I know, I know, I'm in a minority here. But, I see her with far more sexual chemistry with D'avin or Alvis than with John. I totally get how those who see that chemistry want some steam. I just don't see it. To me, they have awesome "I love you forever/ Ride or Die" chemistry. It's just the same as I see with say Oliver & Thea on Arrow. Two BAMFs that can be partners kicking butt even when one of them is more "the boss" in the field but they'd do anything at all for eachother.

I just always took the characters at their word, right from episode 1, where they referred to eachother as siblings, not lovers. Maybe that's why I can't get past the idea that they're going to end up lovers. They're more like brother and sister and it's kind of incesty.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 hours ago, lynny said:

I just always took the characters at their word, right from episode 1, where they referred to eachother as siblings, not lovers. Maybe that's why I can't get past the idea that they're going to end up lovers. They're more like brother and sister and it's kind of incesty.

You must despise the WestAllen on The Flash then, considering the very heavy incestual undertones of that relationship.

I need to binge the whole series again (to date), myself, but I don't ever remember Dutch telling either John or others that she considers him a brother.  Johnny has said she's like a sister to Pree once, after he caught D/D banging in 1.7 (& maybe to D'avin at some other point), but I've never heard her claim him as a brother.   That could be selective forgetfulness on my part, though.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

You must despise the WestAllen on The Flash then, considering the very heavy incestual undertones of that relationship.

I need to binge the whole series again (to date), myself, but I don't ever remember Dutch telling either John or others that she considers him a brother.  Johnny has said she's like a sister to Pree once, after he caught D/D banging in 1.7 (& maybe to D'avin at some other point), but I've never heard her claim him as a brother.   That could be selective forgetfulness on my part, though.

For my part I thought it was a deeply wrong-headed move to have Barry and Iris on The Flash start out as being semi-siblings, but I eventually bought them together as a couple.  The fact that Candice Patton could have chemistry with helium helped a lot.

I don't recall if Johnny said this or simply agreed with it, but "non-sexual life partners" is the best description I've found for his relationship with Dutch. 

[lynny]

13 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

You must despise the WestAllen on The Flash then, considering the very heavy incestual undertones of that relationship.

I need to binge the whole series again (to date), myself, but I don't ever remember Dutch telling either John or others that she considers him a brother.  Johnny has said she's like a sister to Pree once, after he caught D/D banging in 1.7 (& maybe to D'avin at some other point), but I've never heard her claim him as a brother.   That could be selective forgetfulness on my part, though.

 

Yep. Quit the show over it for a while. Came back because of all the ties to Arrow, but mostly only watch the crossovers. Not having any background on the comics, I didn't know that they were supposed to go there. The fact that they made them siblings to start with was a stupid move.

[tessaray]

16 hours ago, lynny said:

I just always took the characters at their word, right from episode 1, where they referred to eachother as siblings, not lovers. Maybe that's why I can't get past the idea that they're going to end up lovers. They're more like brother and sister and it's kind of incesty.

It's been a long time since S1, but it was my impression that AA played it early on as Johnny completely in love with Dutch but settling for BFF status.  (And Dutch being oblivious, though I never quite knew if it was intentional or truly.) He felt so betrayed by D'av and Dutch hooking up but I do remember thinking it was his own fault for not telling D'av how he really felt about her.  The whole sister outrage was deflection. 

But it was okay with me, because that kind of thing happens. It only made me love John and Pawter more because I felt like he deserved someone who loved him back. 

I do think the show intentionally teases the D/J shippers with scenes that can be taken multiple ways. But it just isn't them. They teased Dutch/DSK before giving us DSK/Aneela. I always wondered if that was planned or just written in because HJK has way too much chemistry with everyone.    

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

For my part I thought it was a deeply wrong-headed move to have Barry and Iris on The Flash start out as being semi-siblings, but I eventually bought them together as a couple.  The fact that Candice Patton could have chemistry with helium helped a lot.

That was basically my view of it as well.  I still think they shouldn't have had them grow up together like siblings, but that's the way they went with it.
 

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't recall if Johnny said this or simply agreed with it, but "non-sexual life partners" is the best description I've found for his relationship with Dutch. 

Maybe their vibe would be wrecked if the physical component was added to the D/J relationship, but agreed.  That description is the perfect qualifier for their BFF partnership. 

I just (personally) can't help but hope for more.  Foolish romantic in me won't let it go.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 hours ago, tessaray said:

It's been a long time since S1, but it was my impression that AA played it early on as Johnny completely in love with Dutch but settling for BFF status.  (And Dutch being oblivious, though I never quite knew if it was intentional or truly.) He felt so betrayed by D'av and Dutch hooking up but I do remember thinking it was his own fault for not telling D'av how he really felt about her.  The whole sister outrage was deflection. 

But it was okay with me, because that kind of thing happens. It only made me love John and Pawter more because I felt like he deserved someone who loved him back. 

I do think the show intentionally teases the D/J shippers with scenes that can be taken multiple ways. But it just isn't them. They teased Dutch/DSK before giving us DSK/Aneela. I always wondered if that was planned or just written in because HJK has way too much chemistry with everyone.    

This is a great post, @tessaray.

I wouldn't say I loved the J/P - especially since I knew it was either doomed or wouldn't last - but I certainly appreciated it, in how it helped flesh out Johnny's views of morality and depth of emotions, IE character development.   Considering how much actual air-time it got, it was essentially a 'fling' but you still felt shattered over Johnny's reaction to Pawter's murder.

And speaking of the D/J teases, the most noticeable ones at least;  I felt like they unofficially started here (in S2), when Dutch showed moments of jealousy of the J/P relationship, then also what with her claiming Johnny as her "gravity" and "thing", etc.

[sjohnson]

Luke MacFarlane is getting fewer episodes, which I think means he's getting shafted by Lovretta. Think that likely says something about the end. 

[jelaine]

On 9/5/2018 at 3:48 PM, sjohnson said:

Luke MacFarlane is getting fewer episodes, which I think means he's getting shafted by Lovretta.

Checking LM's IMDb page, he has a movie coming out next year. It's entirely possible he needed time off to film and TPTB granted it. Yes, it could mean what you think. It could also be something behind the scenes that will have no effect on the story being told.

[tessaray]

They've got a lot of stuff going on with only 3 episodes left this season, so while D'av may not be front and center - it doesn't feel to me like they are easing him out - at least not quite yet. It does seem like the pieces on the chess board are being moved around for a specific purpose. 

I'm sure there are some doomed relationships in the offing. Crossing my fingers that Zeph and Pip are still standing at the end of the season. Not that I want them together necessarily, as I've always thought Zeph and D'av would make a pretty couple. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

14 hours ago, jelaine said:

Checking LM's IMDb page, he has a movie coming out next year. It's entirely possible he needed time off to film and TPTB granted it. Yes, it could mean what you think. It could also be something behind the scenes that will have no effect on the story being told.

I was thinking he might be working on another project(s) and wanted to offer that possibility, but without checking didn't want to 'talk out my a$$'.
 

13 hours ago, tessaray said:

They've got a lot of stuff going on with only 3 episodes left this season, so while D'av may not be front and center - it doesn't feel to me like they are easing him out - at least not quite yet. It does seem like the pieces on the chess board are being moved around for a specific purpose. 

I'm sure there are some doomed relationships in the offing. Crossing my fingers that Zeph and Pip are still standing at the end of the season. Not that I want them together necessarily, as I've always thought Zeph and D'av would make a pretty couple. 

I've never really thought about the possibility of Z/D'a, at least not seriously, but they did share quite a few scenes last season (S3). 

Even had that joke-y pairing tease in - I think it was - 3.2, when she was asking him about 'moist places' during that mission that was actually a training simulation. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[tessaray]

4 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I've never really though about the possibility of Z/D'a, at least not seriously, but they did share quite a few scenes last season (S3). 

Even had that joke-y pairing tease in - I think it was - 3.2, when she was asking him about 'moist places' during that mission that was actually a training simulation. 

 

I can see Z/D eventually happening.  Zeph has really evolved this year.  She's a legit member of TAF, as far as I'm concerned. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

5 hours ago, tessaray said:

I can see Z/D eventually happening.  Zeph has really evolved this year.  She's a legit member of TAF, as far as I'm concerned. 

I gotta admit, I don't see it happening, if present personal circumstances continue for Zeph as they are. 

Now if Pippin is the friend-to-TAF to die in 4.9 - if someone does die (as per tradition) - then I could maybe see Z/D happening next season.  But if Zeph can save Pip & he's still alive going into next season, then I see Z/P getting even more serious later on.

[MissLucas]

For a while I was sure they were going to pair D'avin and Zeph - at first sight an unexpected pairing but with lots of quirky potential. But if Pip makes it out of this season alive I don't see it happening. 

I think they've handled the inevitable shipping that will result from such a basic constellation of characters quite well and managed so far to escape the dreaded triangle of doom (the bane of most CW shows if you ask me). The only downside to this is that in order to keep things from getting too comfortable they had to kill off two of my favorite characters who had the potential to become valuable alternatives outside TAF: Pawter and Alvin. 

[sjohnson]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I think they've handled the inevitable shipping that will result from such a basic constellation of characters quite well and managed so far to escape the dreaded triangle of doom (the bane of most CW shows if you ask me). The only downside to this is that in order to keep things from getting too comfortable they had to kill off two of my favorite characters who had the potential to become valuable alternatives outside TAF: Pawter and Alvin. 

Johnny making a life with Pawter would have ended the life partner nonsense with Dutch. Once Pawter proved Johnny wasn't GBF, she was not needed? And Alvis converting Johnny would have done the same, as well as adding an unwelcome uncool seriousness to Johnny. Alvis/Dutch seemed more preemptive to me, but Dutch making a life with someone else would have been the end. Johnny's interest in body mods was terminated for roughly the same reasons Alvis an Pawter were terminated I think. 

[tessaray]

4 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I gotta admit, I don't see it happening, if present personal circumstances continue for Zeph as they are. 

Now if Pippin is the friend-to-TAF to die in 4.9 - if someone does die (as per tradition) - then I could maybe see Z/D happening next season.  But if Zeph can save Pip & he's still alive going into next season, then I see Z/P getting even more serious later on.

Agreed. That's pretty much how I would envision it happening. If it does.  Zeph's growth is her own happy ending as far as I'm concerned. So who/if she ends up with someone, I'm just enjoying the journey. 

I'm not usually fond of finales that end with everyone matched up or with boring HEAs.  I like the ones where they answer the big question and then you can imagine life going on for the characters.  Where the story continues, it just isn't happening on our screens anymore. 

[johntfs]

On 9/5/2018 at 3:48 PM, sjohnson said:

Luke MacFarlane is getting fewer episodes, which I think means he's getting shafted by Lovretta. Think that likely says something about the end. 

Or there's just more characters with bigger roles having to fit in the same 42 minutes per episode air time.  Along with the main three and Turin, you have Fancy, Pree and Garen getting storylines.  DSK playing a more involved role.  Zeph and Pip are even more involved. Khlyen is showing up more and oh yeah there's D'avin's/Aneela's/DSK's growed up kid, too.  It could be nothing more than a bigger cast rotating around a bit.

[statsgirl]

In terms of the relationships overall, Michelle Lovretta created Lost Girl.  I can see her in the episodes deliberately teasing one pairing and then another just to rile up viewers. I don't anticipate any ending relationship that is going to make me happy.

On 9/4/2018 at 7:16 PM, lynny said:

 To me, they have awesome "I love you forever/ Ride or Die" chemistry. It's just the same as I see with say Oliver & Thea on Arrow. Two BAMFs that can be partners kicking butt even when one of them is more "the boss" in the field but they'd do anything at all for eachother.

This is what I like about J/D and to make them lovers would spoil that for me. Johnny makes Dutch more human but I don't think he challenges her the way I want in my ships.  I think a lot of preferences in terms of shipping is based on one's internal lovemap (tm John Money) and for all J/D's great friends chemistry they just don't do it for me as a couple. D'av telling Dutch that she was abused as a child (which is true) hurt but it's needed between equal partners.  I don't see Johnny doing that.

Last season I thought Johnny and Zeph would make a cute couple but it seems she's for Pip now.  It's funny how both Dutch and Zeph use sex for pleasure while the guys are the ones who want real relationships.

In terms of the other couple mentioned, I'm not a fan of WestAllen not because they were raised as siblings but because too much of the time she's acting like his mother. Enough with the pep talks and the constant need to prop him up and focus her life around him.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I can't help myself from always leaving a little light of hope that D/J will happen - even if only as the series ends - but they are really pushing the Dutch/D'avin as of late.

I know its absolutely horrible of me to say this, but when she was burned while kissing D'avin at the very end, I jokingly thought "that's what you get for kissing anyone who's not Johnny, Dutch".

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I can't help myself from always leaving a little light of hope that D/J will happen - even if only as the series ends - but they are really pushing the Dutch/D'avin as of late.

In part because of his character on Warehouse 13, I tend to see Aaron Ashmore's Johnny as "Dutch's not actually gay, gay best friend."