S03.E02: One Way Or Another

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

While Cameron and Donna struggle to find venture capital, Joe hires a key coder, leaving the rest of the team at a loss.

[Primetimer]

Donna and Cameron can't get a VC to say yes to their latest plans. Ryan can't get Joe to hire him. And Gordon just can't catch a break.

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[dmc]

Ok did I miss something I thought Gordon gave Joe that software...

This show paints out Joe to be the worst person BUT Gordon voluntarily gave it to him

[dubbel zout]

What sort of "incident" is Gordon having that he keeps track of them and gives them a number? Pain? Dizziness? Confusion? A combination? 

Edited August 24, 2016 by dubbel zout

[Tara Ariano]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

What sort of "incident" is Gordon having that he keeps track of them and gives them a number?

Perhaps that's something noted in this site's official post on the episode!

[dubbel zout]

I definitely missed the mention of any sort of diagnosis, whether it was this season or last. 

[Yolapukka]

7 hours ago, dmc said:

Ok did I miss something I thought Gordon gave Joe that software...

This show paints out Joe to be the worst person BUT Gordon voluntarily gave it to him

He did and as well, Joe tried to bring him in on his business but Gordon wouldn't discuss it and blew him off. Joe didn't persist after Gordon told him that   he was joining Mutiny. Joe seemed pissed that Gordon was going into business with Cameron, which would be rather understandable. I think Gordon is painting Joe to be the worst person, I'm not so sure about the show itself, though they've never shied away from depicting Joe's tendency to be quite awful.

[AllyB]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I definitely missed the mention of any sort of diagnosis, whether it was this season or last. 

He has chronic toxic encephalopathy. Degenerative brain damage caused by exposure to the chemicals used in his work. It was diagnosed in S02E05. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy

[dubbel zout]

Thanks, AllyB. That rings a vague bell.

[qtpye]

Joe can be horrible, but this is the one situation where he was being rather decent to Gordon.  Heck, Gordon owes a lot of what he has to Joe's recklessness. 

Gordon is a miserable basement dweller at Mutiny and probably would be happier with Joe.  I kept on being afraid that he was going to fall off the servers (please show...no more scenes of Gordon falling and getting hurt).

[scowl]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

Joe can be horrible, but this is the one situation where he was being rather decent to Gordon. 

I saw it more like Joe was ambushing Gordon in a high-pressure situation so he could watch him squirm while trying to make a decision. Joe is the kind of guy who would offer you 80% of his company and then burn it to the ground leaving you 80% of nothing. 

[crashdown]

Why is nobody talking about how incredible Donna and Cameron are being together?  Am I the only one who sees the awesome?

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, qtpye said:

Gordon is a miserable basement dweller at Mutiny and probably would be happier with Joe.

Gordon will never trust Joe again, so I don't see how he can be happy working for him. I think Gordon would be happy at Mutiny if he were given a real position—it feels like he's killing time there until he gets a job offer from someone else.

[magdalene]

The best thing Donna and Gordon can do for their kids and themselves at this point is to divorce. 

Every season of this show Lee Pace has been playing Joe as a different kind of ASSHOLE. First, it was the charismatic asshole, than the manipulative woobie asshole, and now we are on to the Steve Jobs type asshole. 

[AllyB]

13 hours ago, crashdown said:

Why is nobody talking about how incredible Donna and Cameron are being together?  Am I the only one who sees the awesome?

They are being great together but I do find that it stretches credibility a bit much that they are at the forefront of everything! Last season they pretty much invented online games, RPGs, online group RPGs, cobbled together a broadband prototype in a couple of hours, invented internet chat rooms and in the first episode this season came up with the precursor to ebay. At this rate by the end of the season, they'll have an early myspace/facebook type social network on the go.

I did like how Gordon handled finding out that Cameron bribed the daughter to invite her enemy to her party. And I never like anything Gordon does, so that's a first for me.

Edited August 26, 2016 by AllyB

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, I love Donna and Cameron, but I do have to laugh at the fact that they have apparently invented every single major facet of the internet before anyone else did, while apparently going unacknowledged for it. Of course, that is the risk you run in period pieces like this, especially a period piece about pioneers in various fields (unless your pioneer main character is an actual person who did invent something huge and you are following their journey ala The Social Network). You wonder how these two people managed to invent basically everything except the computer, and you wonder how Joe could turn into Steve Jobs before there was a Steve Jobs to turn into, and why no one in modern day knows who these amazing visionaries are. Unless this is some alternate reality and we will eventually get a flash forward to 2016 Cameron and Donna sipping margaritas on their private island, after basically inventing everything people use the internet for. 

By next season, we discover how Donna and Cameron invented Facebook, Twitter, AND Instagram before Mark Zuckerburg could even drive! And in the next season, Donna and Cameron invent Netflix! 

[orza]

While I admit they may be going overboard for storytelling purposes, it is not so far-fetched. Back then there were lots of smart, talented people working on similar ideas at the same time. There were also lots of bearded guru-like guys running around at that time who knew how to sell an idea. The person or group who were successful and whose product we remember or even still use today just had better funding and better people working the business side of things. A small company needs someone who can be the face of the organization to deal with venture capitalists, banks, journalists and anyone who else can help them be successful.

Cameron is a liability in that area. She needs to be sent back to the basement to code like in season 1. Donna should be taking John with her to visit investors. What I find unbelievable is that they never realized that they can't show up to pitch to investors with Cameron looking like she just rolled out of bed and putting her lack of social skills on display. Donna knows how to dress and act like a professional, why didn't she have a heart-to-heart with Cameron about this?

[dubbel zout]

I thought Cameron's outfits were suitable for her. They were a little funkier than Donna's classic women's business wear, but Cameron was wearing jackets and carrying a briefcase. It's not like she was showing up in tank tops and flip-flops.

[orza]

I dunno, if someone came to me asking for 1.4 million dollars and couldn't even be bothered to run a comb through her hair I would have my doubts about her. Wearing overalls and a tee shirt to a business dinner at a nice restaurant is a bit off, especially when Donna was dressed to the nines. They look like they are not on the same page. If they are not in agreement about what image they want to project of the company I would ask myself what else are they at odds about. It's more the combination of questionable fashion and personal grooming plus lack of social skills that makes Cameron a poor choice to represent the company to corporate types.

[AllyB]

Quote

 Of course, that is the risk you run in period pieces like this, especially a period piece about pioneers in various fields (unless your pioneer main character is an actual person who did invent something huge and you are following their journey ala The Social Network). 

Originally this was (very) loosely based on real people who did actually reverse engineer an IBM PC into a portable clone which turned out to be, in many ways, better than the original. Joe, Gordon and Cameron were all based on Rod Canion, Jim Harris and Bill Murto, again very loosely as the real people were all men. But from the final episode of season 1, the series took a drastically different turn as I'm pretty sure Canion never set fire to the first shipment of Compaq Portables and Murto and Harris' wife never set up their own online gaming company! :D

Quote

While I admit they may be going overboard for storytelling purposes, it is not so far-fetched. Back then there were lots of smart, talented people working on similar ideas at the same time. There were also lots of bearded guru-like guys running around at that time who knew how to sell an idea. The person or group who were successful and whose product we remember or even still use today just had better funding and better people working the business side of things.

It wouldn't be far-fetched if they came up with one or two great ideas that are big business today, because through-out history people have been coming up with the same things at the same time but only one is successful with the invention. But it genuinely feels as if the writers have researched every bit of today's popular internet software and hardware that has it's roots in mid-80s inventions and every few weeks have Cameron, Donna or occasionally Gordon invent one of them. Story wise it might have been more interesting to see Mutiny as a company with a few years viability that would inevitably lose out to bigger companies doing the same or better. Like the hints last year that the appearance of Nintendo tolled the death knell for Mutiny gaming. And see the ethical compromises that Donna and/or Cameron (or even Gordon) start making in order to become one of the bigger companies with a chance of survival. If reading the personal chats of their users had led to them discovering the existence of Swap Meet and deciding to buy it out, I'd have found that more interesting and ultimately more realistic.

[minamurray78]

Gordon seems so unhappy at Mutiny, I think he went ahead with the moving and joining the company mostly for his marriage and family, but, adding his illness, he looks like he's heading towards pre-Joe Cardiff era frustration.

The new kid (Ryan?) is the one I'm interested in. He has a vision, like Cameron did, but his sounds more grounded. I remember Cameron's first ideas where way ahead of their time, and also kinda expensive. I do like their plan to buy that other company though, if you can't fight them eat them, lol. They're getting a little more bussiness savvy.

[thuganomics85]

I knew the first loaner was going to fall through, because he was Doug Savant, and I can't trust Tom from Desperate Housewives to do anything right.

The Cameron/Donna partnership is one of my favorite things, even if they have fun at making them pretty much be the forefront at every groundbreaking technology achievement that ever happened.  I just like the way Mackenzie Davis and Kerry Bishe play off one another, and I do think the characters perfectly balance out each other's strengths and weaknesses.  Curious to see how this next storyline will be, about them trying to buy out a company who has actually beaten them to an idea, but they might have better resources then they do.

Even if Joe was sincere about giving Gordon 70% of the company, I still think he would have had an alternate motive, and Gordon would have regretted it.  So, I don't blame Gordon refusing, even though I don't see him winning, because it seems hard to prove that he didn't just give Joe the coding as a gift.  Then again, a normal business man would have probably already settled just to be rid of the headache, but that's not Joe!

Ryan already left Mutiny.  That was quick!

Seems like they are really pushing the Joanie being unhappy in California scenario, and I have to think it's leading to something big.  Is Donna going to end up having to pick between her family or her career?

John and the robot butler provided some chuckles.  Unlike his showdown with Ryan.  Toby Huss can actually be pretty intimidating.

[femmefan1946]

DD saved up her own money to buy that robot, or one much like it. It operated on a cassette tape and cost $300CDN plus tax. She was about 10. and was working her first real job.

Should we start a betting pool on when Ryan will cut off his nipple and who he will present it to?

[hincandenza]

On 8/24/2016 at 2:42 PM, yuggapukka said:

He did and as well, Joe tried to bring him in on his business but Gordon wouldn't discuss it and blew him off. Joe didn't persist after Gordon told him that   he was joining Mutiny. Joe seemed pissed that Gordon was going into business with Cameron, which would be rather understandable. I think Gordon is painting Joe to be the worst person, I'm not so sure about the show itself, though they've never shied away from depicting Joe's tendency to be quite awful.

To be fair, while Gordon blew him off, he made one call and Gordon was eating dinner with his family and said basically "Not now".  It was the Cameron thing that did it- not even his choice, really!- and we saw Joe's snarling face when the phone call ended to let us know he took that as a personal affront for which Gordon needed to be punished.  I may be misremembering, but if anything Joe and Gordon seemed to patch up their rocky relationship post-Cardiff and worked well together in season 2, but that all went out the window because Joe couldn't stand that Gordon "sided" with Cameron against him.

On 8/25/2016 at 7:13 AM, qtpye said:

Joe can be horrible, but this is the one situation where he was being rather decent to Gordon.  Heck, Gordon owes a lot of what he has to Joe's recklessness. 

Gordon is a miserable basement dweller at Mutiny and probably would be happier with Joe.  I kept on being afraid that he was going to fall off the servers (please show...no more scenes of Gordon falling and getting hurt).

That's kind of what makes it sad: Gordon needs the spark of Joe, and they do work well together.  Most of the season 1 friction was from having to basically ninja the entire Giant project into existence, whereas in the current climate Gordon getting free range R&D room from a rich Joe McMillan would probably make both of them gobs of cash yet with little stress.

I kind of wanted him to take Joe's deal, because at worst... wouldn't he be rich because of it?  It's never been clear if Mutiny paid back the Clarks once they moved to SF and grew much bigger, but it sounds like Donna has basically squandered much of their Cardiff money on Mutiny, where he's treated with no respect and isn't used at all.  Whereas if Gordon took that stake in McMillan Antivirus he would set his family for life while also giving him a position to do things and be greatly respected, for a while at least.  Except...    

On 8/25/2016 at 10:38 AM, scowl said:

I saw it more like Joe was ambushing Gordon in a high-pressure situation so he could watch him squirm while trying to make a decision. Joe is the kind of guy who would offer you 80% of his company and then burn it to the ground leaving you 80% of nothing. 

 

On 8/25/2016 at 3:03 PM, dubbel zout said:

Gordon will never trust Joe again, so I don't see how he can be happy working for him. I think Gordon would be happy at Mutiny if he were given a real position—it feels like he's killing time there until he gets a job offer from someone else.

THIS.  Especially with the phone call to Ryan immediately after he was "rejected".  Joe clearly has some sort of mental illness/sociopathic tendencies.  With that phone call, it became apparent that his offer to Gordon was insincere and unreliable- as scowl notes, he's the kind of person who would pull a Zuckerberg to Gordon's Eduardo Saverin and somehow make that 70% stake be valueless, leaving Gordon with no money and a heap more stress.  

As an aside, I can't help but think that in the real world, the defendant in a civil suit saying on the record, "I'll give you 70% of my stake in my company if you just come work for me" sure sounds like something a competent lawyer could turn into a very hefty and quick settlement, but sadly I know the show won't play it like that.  

 

On 8/27/2016 at 10:13 AM, minamurray78 said:

The new kid (Ryan?) is the one I'm interested in. He has a vision, like Cameron did, but his sounds more grounded. I remember Cameron's first ideas where way ahead of their time, and also kinda expensive. I do like their plan to buy that other company though, if you can't fight them eat them, lol. They're getting a little more bussiness savvy.

That was a smart pivot from Donna and Cameron, and I'm glad to see it paid off.  But I'm already done with Ryan; he's as annoying as Cameron was, yet from what we can see doesn't produce anything.  In the weeks since he pitched his chat idea, he apparently has written not a single line of code, so busy is he sitting at his desk and moping.  On top of that, he's all gung ho to work for the genius Joe, yet literally is too dumb to realize Joe is the salesman while it was Gordon that built not only the Giant, but Ryan's favorite program the antivirus- and Gordon is even reaching out to him and exploring ideas.  So naturally, Ryan jumps ship to McMillan...

For all the crap Gordon takes, he's the only one with an actual track record of visionary success.  Granting some critical input at key times from Donna, the Giant was a very successful product and pretty much all his baby.  He also created the first antivirus, and basis for Joe's entire fortune, as basically a fun hack.  Cameron reverse engineered a BIOS which was cool, but really hasn't done anything since; every other idea about the Giant she had was nice but impractical.  Donna was the brains behind Community- which Cameron fought tooth and nail- that actually made Mutiny succeed, although her contributions to the Giant are rather negated by her giving away the ideas to a competitor while pursuing a failed attempt at an affair.  And this new guy Ryan spends all his time ranting about how he is not recognized for his alleged genius... yet hasn't apparently ever spent time actually, y'know, coding said ideas up.  I dunno, maybe that's me being bitter at how many coders I've worked with who talk about their ideas- but never seem to execute. :) Anyone can stand around and spitball ideas, but it's the mere formality of making those ideas real that earns you money and respect.

[ketose]

I had a much cheaper robot butler. It moved faster, but I would barely trust it with a stack of potato chips.

[ganesh]

On 8/29/2016 at 3:25 AM, hincandenza said:

But I'm already done with Ryan; he's as annoying as Cameron was, yet from what we can see doesn't produce anything.

Seriously. I'm not seeing him as credible. I think they went a little too fast with him. Unless it's deliberate, and Joe thinks he's getting the next Gordon. Which, as has been pointed out, Gordon is no slouch. 

Was "full disclosure" a colloquialism in 1986?

Cameron's late 80s look is fantastic. 

On 8/25/2016 at 11:38 AM, scowl said:

I saw it more like Joe was ambushing Gordon in a high-pressure situation so he could watch him squirm while trying to make a decision. Joe is the kind of guy who would offer you 80% of his company and then burn it to the ground leaving you 80% of nothing. 

That was a total power play on Joe's part. The "now we know what the lawsuit is really about," basically summed it up.

On 8/26/2016 at 8:31 AM, tennisgurl said:

Unless this is some alternate reality and we will eventually get a flash forward to 2016 Cameron and Donna sipping margaritas on their private island, after basically inventing everything people use the internet for.

I thought that's what the show was. A loose interpretation of history in some different direction. Mad Men was kind of the same concept. I don't think there was a real person named Don Draper who invented the Coke commercial.

Edited September 2, 2016 by ganesh

[scowl]

On 8/28/2016 at 3:17 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Even if Joe was sincere about giving Gordon 70% of the company, I still think he would have had an alternate motive, and Gordon would have regretted it.

Some rich people will give you money and take away things from you that are worth more than money.

I'm sure someone famous said this but I'm drawing a blank.