All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[dustylil]

Emily and Richard made it seem like Luke was an idiot for wearing his suit on the drive to the ceremony, but, isn't that what everyone not in the wedding party does? I know they were doing some not so subtle belittling, but it's just such an odd thing to pick.

 

Maybe Emily was still ticked off at how Luke was dressed when he came to dinner at their home some weeks earlier. Blue  jeans and an untucked in shirt. Was he expecting to attend a barbecue? We know he has big boy clothes. Why wasn't he wearing them?

[AllyB]

Boy, I wish we had been given a chance to see that French marriage certificate. It was probably an application for a parking permit or a dog license.

Well it almost certainly was something like that because it's extremely difficult for non-residents to get married in France. One partner has to live there temporarily and be signed up with utility providers to get legally married and even then there is an insane amount of paperwork with regards to non-French official documentation, like birth certificates which both of them would have need to have the longform official copies of. There is just no possible way for Lorelai and Chris to have ever been married.

 

Something I found really glaring about GG is that other than Lorelai and Rory almost everyone who is shown with a parent has a tough relationship with them. There are very few exceptions, Richard gets on with Trix (but she is vile to his wife, which is actually crappy parenting), Lindsey and her mother seem to have a normal relationship, presumably Dean and his parents get on fine, Sookie must have loved her mother for the risotto to have special meaning and Luke honoured his dad though their relationship seemed maybe like it lacked real understanding between them. The thing is though that in the real world they would be the norm and all the awful parents like Mitchum, Straub, Floyd Stiles, etc and the overbearing ones like Emily and Richard, Mrs Kim and the Gellers are far less common. Even Marty had crazy family drama. It comes across as bad writing that so many characters had to have awful parent/child relationships in order for Lorelai and Rory to be special.

Edited March 9, 2016 by AllyB

[dustylil]

There is just no possible way for Lorelai and Chris to have ever been married

 

No kidding!  And getting wed in France is a civil procedure. You might also have a ceremony of significance to your particular faith community, but  getting married there means city hall first and foremost. And Christopher and Lorelai did not do that. At the very least I would have thought Emily - who has family in France and likely familiar with the customs of the country - would have queried the "wedding".

I spent the remainder of the seventh season waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one.

[takalotti]

Guys, you're forgetting how super! duper! rich! Christopher is. Obviously he threw a lot of money at the French government to make them change their laws just for him.

[readster]

 

It comes across as bad writing that so many characters had to have awful parent/child relationships in order for Lorelai and Rory to be special.

I have to agree there, when Marty brought up his parent thing at home I went: "That was so out of the blue, how does it even relate to anything?" Then you add in the Hutzbergers view and way of parenting and they made Emily and Richard look like saints almost. Its funny, while Luke's father was highly praised, we heard almost zero on his mother or even Anna's father. Almost nothing on Lulu's folks or where the hell Mr. Kim was. The writers either chose to ignore a said parent or thought it would work as a running gag to make Lorelai and Rory look like the best mother/daughter relationship EVER!

[AllyB]

Its funny, while Luke's father was highly praised, we heard almost zero on his mother or even Anna's father.

Luke's mother died when he and Liz were very young, so I'm presuming it was when they were too young to have nay real memory of her. Their father was always working and Luke worked with him which is why Luke has so much love for him. Liz on the other hand was left to her own devices, so her story of her parents would probably be that after her mother died her father had no time for her as he was always at work or camping/fishing.

[txhorns79]

Luke's mother died when he and Liz were very young, so I'm presuming it was when they were too young to have any real memory of her.

 

Is that right?  For some reason, I was thinking both were older when she died, like Liz would be around 10 and Luke might be a teenager.  I didn't think she died when they were too young to have had memories of her. 

[AllyB]

I don't know for sure. It was just the way Luke explained his family to Lorelai in Nick and Nora/Sid and Nancy when he first tells her about Jess coming and the fact that I don't really remember much being said about their mother other than 'she died when we were really young' that has given me the impression that they don't have many memories of her.

[lulu1960]

All he really said was that their mom loved the festivals and when she died their dad took them. So not too young not to remember

[readster]

Yeah, I did some looking back. Yeah, they remember her and so forth, I'm thinking more along the lines that Luke was like 8 and Liz 5 or 6. Then of course their dad was dedicated to working and trying to be a great dad and Luke and him had more in common. Which happens with families like that and just at some point, Liz went her way and we know how her life turned out. I also get that Luke and his Dad were very similar in not only personality and being handy, but sadly were taken advantage of their good nature. 

[Macgirl]

Can I ask you fine people for some advice?

I just marathoned the first five seasons of the show, and I'd looked online and spoiled myself about seasons 6 and 7 and basically skip them and watched the last three episodes of season 7. I'm a big Luke/Lorelai shipper and college Rory really got on my nerves, but I wonder if there are any 'must see' episodes from those two seasons that you would recommend?

[FictionLover]

Can I ask you fine people for some advice?

I just marathoned the first five seasons of the show, and I'd looked online and spoiled myself about seasons 6 and 7 and basically skip them and watched the last three episodes of season 7. I'm a big Luke/Lorelai shipper and college Rory really got on my nerves, but I wonder if there are any 'must see' episodes from those two seasons that you would recommend?

I liked up until 6.09 myself. In season 7 "To Whom it May Concern" Lorelai starts to realize her feelings for Luke.

[lulu1960]

In Season Six 21 is the Loneliest Number and Balalaikas are two episodes I enjoy especially. In Season Seven I watch primarily from Knit People. Knit onward.

[FictionLover]

In Season Six 21 is the Loneliest Number and Balalaikas are two episodes I enjoy especially. In Season Seven I watch primarily from Knit People. Knit onward.

I agree, those two are particularly heartwarming. I just re-watched from the beginning to 6.09 and I can't watch any further. Anyone else have that problem?

[Guest]

I don't like Balalaikas because I feel it is too heavy handed where they want to make sure you know that Rory is a substitute Lorelai for E&R.  But I do like 21 Is the Loneliest. I also have a lot of love for Friday Night's are for Fighting.  Those are the two Season 6 bright spots for me.  

[Kohola3]

So I decided to bite the bullet and watch Season 7 since it's on Freeform right now. I remember how much I hated French Twist and thought that time might temper my abhorrence.

Time made it worse.  I hate it with the heat of a thousand suns.  When I wasn't gagging I was cringing.  Not just the Chris and "Lor" parts (I HATE that nickname) but the stupid and idiotic new best friends and the whole "Boyfriend" bit.  Oh, man, my stomach is churning.  Never again.

[lulu1960]

Kohola, I think I have only watched French Twist once. I watched it when it originally aired and that was it. I do own the DVDs but only watch a select few of Season Seven.

[photo fox]

Gawd, what was the point of Olivia and Whatsherface?  I guess it was an attempt to give Rory a social life at Yale since Logan and his friends had graduated, and she wasn't at the YDN anymore?

 

I could never, ever believe that anyone who was friends with Paris Gellar could be friends with those two.  They were just so incredibly vapid.

[Taryn74]

Gawd, what was the point of Olivia and Whatsherface?  I guess it was an attempt to give Rory a social life at Yale since Logan and his friends had graduated, and she wasn't at the YDN anymore?

 

I could never, ever believe that anyone who was friends with Paris Gellar could be friends with those two.  They were just so incredibly vapid.

 

Truth.

 

Although it's going to be incredibly interesting to watch the "Boyfriend!" episodes again some day after having spent so much time with KR as Jessica Jones.

[Kohola3]

Arrggghhh, why do I torture myself like this?

 

Merry Fisticuffs - petulant, whiny baby Chris having his tantrum because "Lor" (ugh, again) won't  go into baby-making mode at his whim.  Then pouting through the wedding party appointment with the one-word passive aggressive snide comments to everything.  Enough, already.

Fade to petulant, jealous Logan happily torpedoing both Boyfriend (double ugh) and his beloved by deliberately spilling the beans.  Don't care that he blindsided whatshername so much but, geez, man.  Another big whiny baby.

 

However, the fist fight at the end was hilarious.  At least that made me laugh especially with the Christmas music jingling away.

[takalotti]

I will always remember that episode for the fact that it aired while Mr. Taks was in the hospital for a week. When I saw him the next day, he asked how the episode was (just to make small talk, not eager to find out what he missed). I proceeded to recap and ended up taking 50-60 minutes, when actual air time of an episode is about 45 minutes.

Nope, not obsessed at all over here...

[dustylil]

the fist fight at the end

 

Fist fight? I've seen more convincing displays of pugilism in a nursery school sandbox.

[Kohola3]

Fist fight? I've seen more convincing displays of pugilism in a nursery school sandbox.

 

I know, right?  I burst out laughing. Their fight coach must have failed that class.

[photo fox]

Fade to petulant, jealous Logan happily torpedoing both Boyfriend (double ugh) and his beloved by deliberately spilling the beans.  Don't care that he blindsided whatshername so much but, geez, man.  Another big whiny baby.

 

I love Logan, so I'll admit to viewing his actions through rose-colored glasses, but I think he was 100% in the right here.  (And I'd think that if it were Jess or Luke, too.)

 

Marty was flat-out wrong to lie to his girlfriend in the first place.  Then Rory was wrong to perpetuate the lie.  I didn't blame her at first, because she was so caught off-guard, but then she continued to go with the lie, basically because she lacked the guts to do anything about it.  Rory AND Girlfriend were both better off for having Logan yank off that band-aid.  Girlfriend deserved to know that Marty was lying to her (and hitting on Rory).  Rory was completely uncomfortable with the situation but didn't know how to get out of it.  I know Girlfriend was pissed at Rory and it momentarily derailed their (unbelievable) friendship, but Rory deserved it, IMO.

 

Besides, it's not like Logan set out to tell her.  Girlfriend asked him a point-blank question, "how did you two meet?"  Was he supposed to fabricate a meet-cute story?  So then she could have three people lying to her and maneuvering behind her back?  I don't think she deserved that (as much as I pretty much hated her).

[Kohola3]

I love Logan, so I'll admit to viewing his actions through rose-colored glasses, but I think he was 100% in the right here.

 

I have to respectfully disagree.  This was none of his business. He is not the morality police, he's not related to any of the offending or innocent parties, he's not whatshername's best friend and felt he had to "save" her.  He could have simply answered the question with "he was a bartender at my shindigs" and left it at that.  Mr. Buttinski only did it out of jealousy and spite.

[txhorns79]

He could have simply answered the question with "he was a bartender at my shindigs" and left it at that.  Mr. Buttinski only did it out of jealousy and spite.

 

I think he did act out of spite, but I'd also say he's not obligated to go along with whatever fiction Marty and Rory were trying to maintain either. 

[solotrek]

I think it's better she found out then than later, it was a stupid lie that was just going to make her feel worse over time.

 

So I have a question about Christopher and Lorelai. From various dialogue and things shown, he realized he was in love with her when he was 14 and they were obviously hanging out and together when she got pregnant at 16. It seems likes they were together all of high school. But how does Christopher's conversation with Logan about going from prep school to prep school around the country fit in with that? Did he end up going to a local Chilton like school because he was kicked out of every prestigious school in the country in that quick a span? What a catch.

[dustylil]

So I have a question about Christopher and Lorelai. From various dialogue and things shown, he realized he was in love with her when he was 14 and they were obviously hanging out and together when she got pregnant at 16. It seems likes they were together all of high school. But how does Christopher's conversation with Logan about going from prep school to prep school around the country fit in with that?

 

Christopher and Lorelai had known one another since they were about six years of age. Even if Christopher was gracing various boarding prep schools and Lorelai attending the equivalent of Chilton, he would  be in Hartford during holiday periods and summer vacations.

Small point of clarification - she was sixteen when she had Rory, fifteen when she got pregnant.

I think it's better she found out then than later, it was a stupid lie that was just going to make her feel worse over time

 

I agree. And it was astonishing to me that Marty thought he could get away with it. Marty and Rory were freshmen at the same time, lived in the same residence hall for at least a year, took some courses together (I believe), and socialized  in their first two years.  Any number of people would know they were acquainted. All that needed to happen in the early part of the senior year was for some former residence mate from Branford Hall to see Marty when he was with Girlfriend and say "Hey did you see that Rory Gilmore is back?".

Edited March 23, 2016 by dustylil

[moonb]

Maybe Christopher's multiple school attendance/expulsions happened after Lorelai got pregnant.  He could have had 2 more years of school to go. And Straub and Francine could have added that fuel to the "Lorelai ruined his life" fire - bonus!

[takalotti]

I love Logan, so I'll admit to viewing his actions through rose-colored glasses, but I think he was 100% in the right here.  (And I'd think that if it were Jess or Luke, too.)

 

Marty was flat-out wrong to lie to his girlfriend in the first place.  Then Rory was wrong to perpetuate the lie.  I didn't blame her at first, because she was so caught off-guard, but then she continued to go with the lie, basically because she lacked the guts to do anything about it.  Rory AND Girlfriend were both better off for having Logan yank off that band-aid.  Girlfriend deserved to know that Marty was lying to her (and hitting on Rory).  Rory was completely uncomfortable with the situation but didn't know how to get out of it.  I know Girlfriend was pissed at Rory and it momentarily derailed their (unbelievable) friendship, but Rory deserved it, IMO.

 

Besides, it's not like Logan set out to tell her.  Girlfriend asked him a point-blank question, "how did you two meet?"  Was he supposed to fabricate a meet-cute story?  So then she could have three people lying to her and maneuvering behind her back?  I don't think she deserved that (as much as I pretty much hated her).

I do not have similar glasses when it comes to Logan :) But I agree that Marty was flat out wrong (and stupid and lame and weird) to lie to Lucy, and that Rory was wrong for going along with it. But I don't agree that Logan was 100% in the right telling Lucy.

For me, it's not the What but the How/Why. I don't get mad at him for telling Lucy because you're right, it had to be done and clearly Marty and Rory weren't going to no matter what she said. But the How and Why of him telling is what I hold against him.

When I watch that scene, Logan knew exactly what he was doing. Rory reluctantly told him the bizarre situation, mentioned what Marty said that made her think he was still hung up on her, and said she would tell Lucy about them actually knowing each other (again rather reluctantly, I think). Logan was already jealous at this point, but kept it at a low simmer. He didn't like Marty still being hung up on Rory and hiding it, and seemed suspicious of Rory not mentioning it to him.

She said they could get out of the dinner. He could have said, "Yeah, it would be better for you to tell her first, and then we'll see if there's still a double date to be had." But instead he challenged her with "No, we can go, unless there's something on your end." In my opinion, he was stirring the pot.

Then at the dinner, Logan is being totally cool. But he's analyzing Marty's discomfort level, and he's getting his little digs in, mentioning Rory being the object of many strange crushes, and I think he was being condescending on purpose when he said, "That's a lot of jobs, my boy."

But there was a definite shift in Logan after Marty snapped back about trust funds and then picked up Rory's napkin (cheesy trope of a man doting on a woman). He asked Lucy how they met with the intention of being asked the same so he could "innocently" spill the beans while playing the moral high ground card.

But there's no way the situation could have been handled to my liking AND be TV-interesting at the same time.

[Kohola3]

But the How and Why of him telling is what I hold against him.

 

Absolutely.  The venue and timing was chosen to create the maximum amount of hurt and humiliation to a quasi-rival, a total innocent stranger, and (supposedly) the love of his life.

 

If he felt so morally obligated to reveal the truth )(because he has always been such an upstanding citizen), then he should have taken Whatshername outside and way from a room full of strangers to tell her.  If it had been me, I would have been more mortified to have had an audience than to the charade.

[solotrek]

If Marty wanted Logan to go along with the ridiculous charade, maybe he shouldn't have had that ridiculous dick measuring contest with him. If I wanted someone I had issues with to go along with a bizarre lie to an annoying but perfectly sweet significant other, I'd be a little less truculent regardless of how that person was being.

 

Heck since he had time to perfect his little lie and add on to that foundation of crap, he could have just head things off with "I used to cater for Logan's parties, come to think of it I must have seen Rory at one of their hangouts". Nothing about that is inherently untrue. If you're going to build your relationship on lies, at least be quick about it.

 

Honestly, I think his house of lies would have fallen apart as soon as Paris came into the mix  because I don't see her playing along with this high school BS. She would have taken one look at Marty and tore him a new one and it would have been GLORIOUS.

[Eeksquire]

 

Honestly, I think his house of lies would have fallen apart as soon as Paris came into the mix  because I don't see her playing along with this high school BS. She would have taken one look at Marty and tore him a new one and it would have been GLORIOUS.

Oh man, I would have given anything to see this happen.  Paris' reaction to that whole shitshow would have been EPIC.

[junienmomo]

If Marty wanted Logan to go along with the ridiculous charade, maybe he shouldn't have had that ridiculous dick measuring contest with him. If I wanted someone I had issues with to go along with a bizarre lie to an annoying but perfectly sweet significant other, I'd be a little less truculent regardless of how that person was being.

Watching that scene reminded me of Lorelai at the vow renewal. She and Rory promulgated a lie around Lorelai's being at Christopher's overnight, but at least Lorelai had the good sense to realize that the jig was up. Marty was a doofus. He knew Logan was a dick and would never let something like this go.

Ironically enough, (or maybe it was simply an attempt to plagiarize the old plot), Rory carried a big portion of blame for the original lie in both situations.

[junienmomo]

Arrggghhh, why do I torture myself like this?

 

Merry Fisticuffs -

However, the fist fight at the end was hilarious.  At least that made me laugh especially with the Christmas music jingling away.

When I watched the fight, I couldn't help comparing it to the slap fight in Bridget Jones' Diary.

Fisticuffs seemed to have a edge of real hatred to it that didn't fit with GG. Too bad the showrunner or fight coach couldn't have lightened it up a bit.

To me, Christopher is a metrosexual type, although not extreme. Yet not only did he start the fight, he was OTT aggressive and angry for someone who probably didn't have fighting skills or experience. He should have given Hugh Grant a call.

[andromeda331]

I recently did the same thing with Season Seven to see if was as horrible as I remembered. I remembered

and hated Christopher and Lorelai dating and their eloping. But sometimes when you watch something

later its not so bad. This wasn't the case. I still disliked the Christopher and Lorelai stuff as much as

I did the first time around. I completely forgot about Marty and that weird storyline. I also forgot that

Liz and TJ  were on so much more and even more annoying, and the custody storyline where

Anna managed to be an even bigger bitch to Luke then she was in season six.    

Edited March 26, 2016 by andromeda331

[dustylil]

andromeda331,  had you remembered  salt of the earth, nice fellow Jackson turning into a reprehensible weasel?

That was another fun part of Season 7.

I  may have repressed the reason to preserve my own sanity, but did we ever find out why Marty lied and felt the need to deceive his significant other? Was it just a badly thought through plot point like Luke not bothering to mention the existence of his child to Lorelai? Or because he was a fraidy cat like Richard and therefore didn't tell Emily of his lunches with Pennilynn Lott?

Edited March 26, 2016 by dustylil

[takalotti]

I may have repressed the reason to preserve my own sanity, but did we ever find out why Marty lied and felt the need to deceive his significant other? Was it just a badly thought through plot point like Luke not bothering to mention the existence of his child to Lorelai? Or because he was a fraidy cat like Richard and therefore didn't tell Emily of his lunches with Pennilynn Lott?

They never explicitly said why. Really all we got was...

RORY: What's going on?

MARTY: What do you mean?

RORY: Um...why did you just pretend like you didn't know me?

MARTY: Oh... I just thought it would be weird.

RORY: Weird? That we were friends? Why would that be weird?

MARTY: Well, what's the difference? I mean, it's not important.

I think we're supposed to assume that since Marty was still hung up on Rory, he wouldn't have been able to talk about having been friends with her and why they didn't hang out anymore without it being apparent he was still hung up on her. By acting like they didn't know each other he could avoid all that, plus the embarrassment of telling Lucy he had tried to ask Rory out and got turned down. Plus he was probably trying to make her feel insignificant like she made him feel.

I tend to fanwank that Lucy talked about Rory to Marty beforehand and he avoided saying anything then (for same reasons above) and probably hoped he could avoid running into Rory at all (I wouldn't blame him for figuring Rory would eventually passively drop Lucy like she did Marty while she was busy pursuing Logan). So when he was faced with Rory he couldn't admit he knew her without it being weird that he said nothing before.

Edited March 26, 2016 by takalotti

[txhorns79]

I think we're supposed to assume that since Marty was still hung up on Rory, he wouldn't have been able to talk about having been friends with her and why they didn't hang out anymore without it being apparent he was still hung up on her.

 

That was my presumption.  I know they didn't actually say so, but it doesn't seem like Marty's motivations were all that mysterious here. 

[dustylil]

By acting like they didn't know each other he could avoid all that, plus the embarrassment of telling Lucy he had tried to ask Rory out and got turned down. Plus he was probably trying to make her feel insignificant like she made him feel

 

Ah! So just like junior high school then.

I wonder why it never seemed to have occurred to Marty that there were likely dozens of people on campus who knew that he and Rory were acquainted and who might let that slip to Lucy when talking about classes, social activities  or campus events Or perhaps he had found a way to screen all of Lucy's contacts.

[andromeda331]

 

andromeda331,  had you remembered  salt of the earth, nice fellow Jackson turning into a reprehensible weasel?

That was another fun part of Season 7.

I  may have repressed the reason to preserve my own sanity, but did we ever find out why Marty lied and felt the need to deceive his significant other? Was it just a badly thought through plot point like Luke not bothering to mention the existence of his child to Lorelai? Or because he was a fraidy cat like Richard and therefore didn't tell Emily of his lunches with Pennilynn Lott?

 

No I didn't remember that either. I think I repressed that part too along with the others.

[txhorns79]

I wonder why it never seemed to have occurred to Marty that there were likely dozens of people on campus who knew that he and Rory were acquainted and who might let that slip to Lucy when talking about classes, social activities  or campus events

 

Aren't there like 12,000 or so students on campus?  Or more to the point, unless there was some specific reason to bring it up, why would anyone care enough to mention it?       

[takalotti]

Ah! So just like junior high school then.

I agree, and so does Rory :)

LOGAN: So what's with the whole "you must have met Marty"?

RORY: Oh, I meant to tell you.

LOGAN: Tell me what?

RORY: It's kind of embarrassing. It's so juvenile and lame. It's like high school -- not even high school. It's junior high.

I wonder why it never seemed to have occurred to Marty that there were likely dozens of people on campus who knew that he and Rory were acquainted and who might let that slip to Lucy when talking about classes, social activities  or campus events Or perhaps he had found a way to screen all of Lucy's contacts.

Because nothing sane and logical was occurring to him. He panicked and all his stupid took control. And I say that as a Marty lover (and I manage because I refer to S7 Marty as PodMarty). He was also acting very fake around Lucy, so I presume he hated himself so much (all because of SirenRory's rejection of course) he decided he had to be whatever a girl wanted him to be to "keep" her. Which means I fully expect he ditched everyone who knew his old persona (Breakfast Crew included) and just lived in denial about being exposed.

[txhorns79]

(all because of SirenRory's rejection of course)

 

Hee.  I love the idea of SirenRory! 

[junienmomo]

No revival spoilers for the link in this post. It's an interview with Morey about his time on GG with Babette.

I post it here, because the GG loved their neighbors and I wanted to note that this was a healthy, loving married relationship. A shocker for GG, I know!

I'd forgotten how much in love the characters were, how relationship-drama free, and so, so funny!

They worked. As a couple, as a storyline, as professional actors. Love them!

http://www.gilmorenews.com/2016/04/20/ted-rooney-on-the-mystery-of-morey-and-returning-to-gilmore-girls/

[Taryn74]

No revival spoilers for the link in this post. It's an interview with Morey about his time on GG with Babette.

I post it here, because the GG loved their neighbors and I wanted to note that this was a healthy, loving married relationship. A shocker for GG, I know!

I'd forgotten how much in love the characters were, how relationship-drama free, and so, so funny!

They worked. As a couple, as a storyline, as professional actors. Love them!

http://www.gilmorenews.com/2016/04/20/ted-rooney-on-the-mystery-of-morey-and-returning-to-gilmore-girls/

 

Aww, that was great!  How neat that he and Sally Struthers actually have a background together.

 

This quote made me LOL -

 

Just like his character, Morey, he’s more of an observer and that, as part of the “older set” in town, he believes Rory’s love life would be below his radar. “Those young folk! What they get up to!! I have no idea what is going on.”

[takalotti]

A lot of great Gran quotes and moments were being listed out in the Funny Moments thread. It made me realize ... The people that Gran was meanest to were the ones who were so obviously desperate for her to like them (Emily and Jason are the main examples I have at the moment). As soon as she knew you wanted her to like you, she eviscerated you and nothing you do could be right. But if you kind of didn't care (or maybe it would be better to say had enough confidence that you didn't consider the possibility she wouldn't like you) then she was basically cool with you.

[Taryn74]

A lot of great Gran quotes and moments were being listed out in the Funny Moments thread. It made me realize ... The people that Gran was meanest to were the ones who were so obviously desperate for her to like them (Emily and Jason are the main examples I have at the moment). As soon as she knew you wanted her to like you, she eviscerated you and nothing you do could be right. But if you kind of didn't care (or maybe it would be better to say had enough confidence that you didn't consider the possibility she wouldn't like you) then she was basically cool with you.

 

That's a very interesting observation!

[SparedTurkey]

I moved this whole discussion from the nitpicking thread to here because it's not quite a nitpick, limited to Lorelai, Emily, Richard or Unpopular opinions.

Quote

Honestly, that just sounds like self-pity to me.  I don't pretend that Emily and Richard made life easy for Lorelai.  She had legitimate grievances with them, and I fully supported her finding somewhere else to live as she was not happy living there.  I just didn't think her parents deserved the shunning.  That just seemed petty and vindictive to me.  I really was struck when Richard tells Lorelai that Emily couldn't get out of bed for a month after she left, Lorelai gives little to no indication that she gets what that meant, and doesn't really reflect on that. 

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I think Lorelai was justified in moving out. In the Gilmore house she was essentially being forced to live as a child and a mother and something had to give. So she moved out so she could be a mother. But from what we know of Richard and Emily, what any normal person would have done in her situation, was, after a few days/weeks once she had settled, contacted her parents and work out a new adult to adult parents relationship with them. It wouldn't have been easy to establish and maintain clear boundaries at first. But eventually R&E would have come to accept Lorelai as a grown-up and stayed close to Rory. But instead Lorelai cut them off almost completely, seemingly only seeing R&E for their Christmas party. This just seems needlessly cruel on Lorelai's part because the estrangement was all just down to her immaturity.

I don't think that that there was no justification for Lorelai moving out, that she shunned them for no reason, that she was needlessly cruel. Emily and Richard were well thought out, brilliantly acted characters. But hugely self-absorbed. I think the show was pretty clear Richard had no time for her and Emily paraded Lorelai around like a doll. (This isn't the show for any other kind of child abuse so I'll leave that alone). Their response to her pregnancy was that she marry Chris and live there and eventually have the life they wanted. If that is not how Lorelai wanted to live then what was she supposed to do? Stay for them? She moved out, got a job and raised her kid. She didn't mooch off them, use a trust fund or otherwise rely on them for money while she didn't want to deal with them. If all Richard and Emily can focus on is Emily not getting out of bed for a month and nothing of how hard it would have been for Lorelai then yeah, thats pathetic. Parents don't have to live just for their kids or enable them. But they have a responsibility. Why is the onus on a 17 year old child to suck it up and maintain a shit relationship instead of the adults to look at the situation and actively improve it?

If Emily or Richard wanted a better relationship during those first 16 years, why didn't they reach out? Listen? Clearly they didn't try, as precious as their grandaughter was to them. They were in their 40s, their child 17. Who was acting their age really?

And really, 16 years has past and what do we see from Emily and Richard regarding Lorelai? The first time she ever asks them for help, not even for herself, they attach strings. They don't listen. They badger. They are cruel about her every ending relationship. After season 3 and Lorelai repays the loan and still comes to dinner - they badger. They patronise. They collude with Christopher to break up her relationship, one she is more attached to, because it doesn't work for them. Now if that is how they behave after all those years, I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate how they were when Lorelai was completely under their control.

I don't think that Lorelai is the best character i this show. But I don't agree with the glorification of Emily and Richard over this when things were largely their fault. Even if the actors are fantastic.

[hippielamb]

15 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I moved this whole discussion from the nitpicking thread to here because it's not quite a nitpick, limited to Lorelai, Emily, Richard or Unpopular opinions.

I don't think that that there was no justification for Lorelai moving out, that she shunned them for no reason, that she was needlessly cruel. Emily and Richard were well thought out, brilliantly acted characters. But hugely self-absorbed. I think the show was pretty clear Richard had no time for her and Emily paraded Lorelai around like a doll. (This isn't the show for any other kind of child abuse so I'll leave that alone). Their response to her pregnancy was that she marry Chris and live there and eventually have the life they wanted. If that is not how Lorelai wanted to live then what was she supposed to do? Stay for them? She moved out, got a job and raised her kid. She didn't mooch off them, use a trust fund or otherwise rely on them for money while she didn't want to deal with them. If all Richard and Emily can focus on is Emily not getting out of bed for a month and nothing of how hard it would have been for Lorelai then yeah, thats pathetic. Parents don't have to live just for their kids or enable them. But they have a responsibility. Why is the onus on a 17 year old child to suck it up and maintain a shit relationship instead of the adults to look at the situation and actively improve it?

If Emily or Richard wanted a better relationship during those first 16 years, why didn't they reach out? Listen? Clearly they didn't try, as precious as their grandaughter was to them. They were in their 40s, their child 17. Who was acting their age really?

And really, 16 years has past and what do we see from Emily and Richard regarding Lorelai? The first time she ever asks them for help, not even for herself, they attach strings. They don't listen. They badger. They are cruel about her every ending relationship. After season 3 and Lorelai repays the loan and still comes to dinner - they badger. They patronise. They collude with Christopher to break up her relationship, one she is more attached to, because it doesn't work for them. Now if that is how they behave after all those years, I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate how they were when Lorelai was completely under their control.

I don't think that Lorelai is the best character i this show. But I don't agree with the glorification of Emily and Richard over this when things were largely their fault. Even if the actors are fantastic.

Exactly.

That first scene with Emily coloured my view of her. Your kid asks for help, you help her. Period. You don't attach conditions on the help, even if you are estranged. Surely Emily could have understood how difficult it must have been for Lorelai to ask for their help. I loved that Richard was ready to write her a cheque, no questions asked. He almost always defers to Emily on Lorelai related business but I love that his initial fatherly reaction was to help his daughter.

I think Emily especially was hurt and insulted by Lorelai not accepting help from her and Richard. Money is how Emily shows love, (like most of the rich characters on this show). Take away that and it's hard for her to show her feelings. Richard, I think, was willing to let Lorelai dictate the terms. If she didn't want a relationship with him, he wasn't going to force the issue. I wish Emily had reached out, if only for a casual lunch now and then. But then that would take away from the basic premise of the show.