S02.E05: eps2.3_logic-b0mb.hc

[DrSpaceman73]

The ending with the attack is the most surprised and interested I have been all season. 

Still very confused by it all and how it will all come together.  Really requires watching more than once, which I have not had time for lately. 

Not sure how much I care about Elliot being involved in another nefarious website.  Seems like a path and story that's already been done., though he was caught this time. 

[Guest]

On August 5, 2016 at 0:57 AM, meep.meep said:

I hate the Dom lollipop thing.  She's no Kojak.

She's no Meryl Streep either. Between her and her sister, I'd be hard pressed to figure out which one of them is the lesser of two bad actresses receiving all the benefits nepotism provides. 

[thuganomics85]

Whoa, what the fuck, Ray?!  I thought something shady was going down with him since he first appeared, but I didn't predict that he would end up being responsible for some kind of evil and horrible website, where people can trade and deal with things like hitmen, weapons, and human trafficking.  And now he knows that Elliot knows, and it's gotten real dark in a hurry!  Obviously, I know Elliot isn't dying (right?), but I have to imagine it will be hell for him to get out of this one.  And Craig Robinson was perfectly chilling in that final bit.  He isn't overplaying it, but he already is selling Ray as someone who you never want to fuck with.

The stuff with Whiterose was interesting.  The Minister of Security from China?!  Now that's some power right there!  Still indifferent to Dom, but all of her scenes with Whiterose were interesting.  B.D. Wong is perfection in the role.  I'm guessing Whiterose was the one behind the shootout at the end.  I'm guessing Dom will somehow survive, but the rest of the FBI sure took a hit (including the agent who plays Eugene Hawes on Elementary!)

I was wondering what old Ollie was up too.  Not surprised he tried to record Angela, nor am I surprised that she figured that out very quickly.  A smart one, she is.  Curious to see her working with F Society; at least for now.  Glad to see Angela/Darlene again, because I remember their interactions from last season, and wanting to see more of them.

Really hope they finally reveal what happened to Tyrell soon, but Joanna continues to bring the insanity.  Of course, she would not only have that guy who was close to breaking killed, she would have him be paralyzed first, but not because she wants to make it worse, but because she believes him knowing why he was dying would be better then just a quick and sudden death.  Oh, Joanna!  You so crazy!
 

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Whoa, what the fuck, Ray?!  I thought something shady was going down with him since he first appeared, but I didn't predict that he would end up being responsible for some kind of evil and horrible website, where people can trade and deal with things like hitmen, weapons, and human trafficking.  And now he knows that Elliot knows, and it's gotten real dark in a hurry!  Obviously, I know Elliot isn't dying (right?), but I have to imagine it will be hell for him to get out of this one.  And Craig Robinson was perfectly chilling in that final bit.  He isn't overplaying it, but he already is selling Ray as someone who you never want to fuck with.

The stuff with Whiterose was interesting.  The Minister of Security from China?!  Now that's some power right there!  Still indifferent to Dom, but all of her scenes with Whiterose were interesting.  B.D. Wong is perfection in the role.  I'm guessing Whiterose was the one behind the shootout at the end.  I'm guessing Dom will somehow survive, but the rest of the FBI sure took a hit (including the agent who plays Eugene Hawes on Elementary!)

<snip>
 

I can't understand how it can make any sense for Ray to arrange a beating for Elliot.  Put yourself in Ray's shoes. You have to kill Elliot - not beat him. It makes no sense to beat him. Remember what Elliot said about the best way to remove a vulnerability is to expose it; but if you expose it, you leave yourself open to an exploit.

Well, giving Elliot a beating just exposes Ray and makes him vulnerable to getting arrested. If he is ever tied to that website, he will be going to a very bad prison for a very long time. That is why he can't leave Elliot alive. It is especially ridiculous for Ray to give Elliot a beating because that will force Elliot to make sure the authorities learn about Ray and his web site. Elliot can't afford to let Ray remain free if Ray will then force Elliot to work for him. That beating makes no sense to me.

Does it make any sense to anyone else here? Am I missing something?

I also have a problem with WR being the Minister of Security for China. Many people know that the MoS (Minister of Security)  is really WR  and that he is some kind of cross-dresser or has some kind of split personality. TPTB in China would never ever allow someone who may be insane to hold such an important position in their govt.  Even if he is not insane but this can be considered a "mild fetish", I'm fairly certain the govt of China would never take such a lenient view of his/her personality.  So, once again, this makes no sense to me and I have to ask again: 

Does it make any sense to anyone else here? Am I missing something?

Edited August 7, 2016 by AliShibaz

[kat165]

Ali, if Elliot hasn't finished the work for Ray then I can see why/how he was just beat up. Once the job is done, then Ray may kill him, but if it's, not he still needs him & the beating was just a warning.

I just finished reading a book that included crazy dictator assholes leftover from Papa Doc's admin and some crazy government officials in/on a small Caribbean Island, so corrupt/sadistic/cross dressing officials doesn't ring that false to me. But I am not politically savvy so White Rose as China's Minister of Security doesn't seem a stretch to me. BD Wong is killing it. So much different from his SVU character - and wasn't he also on Oz? I'm really impressed with his acting here.

Edited August 7, 2016 by kat165

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-08-07 at 1:54 PM, kat165 said:

Ali, if Elliot hasn't finished the work for Ray then I can see why/how he was just beat up. Once the job is done, then Ray may kill him, but if it's, not he still needs him & the beating was just a warning.

I just finished reading a book that included crazy dictator assholes leftover from Papa Doc's admin and some crazy government officials in/on a small Caribbean Island, so corrupt/sadistic/cross dressing officials doesn't ring that false to me. But I am not politically savvy so White Rose as China's Minister of Security doesn't seem a stretch to me. BD Wong is killing it. So much different from his SVU character - and wasn't he also on Oz? I'm really impressed with his acting here.

His acting is magnificent. No doubt about that.  But I'm still stuck on Ray and Elliot. If I was Elliot and received that beating and then Ray forced me to work for him at gunpoint, I would feel it was a life and death struggle. I would have to turn him in and see him in prison before he killed me. No question in my mind about that. It will have to be a struggle to the death.

Edited August 8, 2016 by AliShibaz

[kat165]

I don't think Elliot has it in him to go to the authorities, like that would never be his first move. I don't think he has much faith in the authorities/police. Ray would probably get Elliot before the cops got Ray.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I can't understand how it can make any sense for Ray to arrange a beating for Elliot.  Put yourself in Ray's shoes. You have to kill Elliot - not beat him. It makes no sense to beat him....

I don't know about real life, but on crime shows, it seems that once a victim dies, all stops are pulled out to solve the crime and convict the perp, whereas if the victim recovers, the crime is likely to go on the back burner.
And like @kat165 said above, the beating serves as a warning.
It's also reminiscent of a gang initiation, or even indoctrination into a rogue army in a third world country.

[possibilities]

From Ray's point of view, he doesn't know if Elliot is the sort of person who would object to the illegal activities or not. Elliot has done a lot of illegal things himself, and even though WE know Elliot has a kind of moral code and white knight self-image, Ray doesn't know, not for sure. I initially thought Ray wold of course kill Elliot (except for Elliot being central to the show and thus unlikely to be killed because of show reasons), but if Ray convinces himself that Elliot is not a threat, he becomes a valuable ally.

If Ray has cloned the system and is monitoring it, he might realize that Elliot was hacking the FBI, which gives him leverage -- he can try threatening Elliot with exposure. I don't know which case would be the bigger one for law enforcement, but they now have dirt on each other, and could try offering cops the info they have, in a plea bargain, incriminating the other to mitigate their own sentences. Ray knows Elliot doesn't want to be exposed. Threatening to do so could be enough to keep him quiet, depending on what kind of person he is, and Ray may not be sure of that yet.

Or he can try bargaining with Elliot-- E helps R with IT stuff, R gives E access to continue E's own hacking/illegal activities. Again, Ray may not be sure that Elliot would turn down that offer.

It's either a mutually assured destruction strategy or a you scratch my back, I scratch yours scenario. Either way, Ray is spared the trouble of having to find another IT person, which also minimizes his risk of exposure. Every time he tries to get another person to help, that person knows his business and can hurt him. And murdering someone also has risks, so I guess I can see him trying one or both of the other options first. With a little battery to show he's serious, as shown.

Or, he can hold Elliot captive and use him for tech purposes. Or he can threaten Elliot, that if Elliot does not co-operate, Ray will harm Angela or Darlene or do some other terrible thing he suspects Elliot would not want to have happen. Ray may have looked into Elliot, had him followed, know more than he's revealed about who and what Elliot cares about.

Either way, Ray benefits from keeping Elliot alive, at least temporarily.

[xaxat]

One reason Elliot might be hesitant to rat out Ray? The last time he sent info to the police (Shayla's drug dealer) it didn't turn out well.

37 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If Ray has cloned the system and is monitoring it, he might realize that Elliot was hacking the FBI, which gives him leverage

Ray doesn't have those kinds of skills. I don't think he understood what the IT guy was talking about when they were discussed migrating servers. 

[possibilities]

Well, somehow Ray knew Elliot had looked and seen what his business was. He must have been monitoring E's activities some way or other. So however he knew, he knew.

[xaxat]

He tortured the IT guy for the info.  Because he wanted an explanation of what the two of them had actually worked on.

[Avaleigh]

I'm going to take most of my thoughts on this episode to the speculation thread but a few things in this episode jumped out at me. 

During the conversation with Angela and Darlene, Darlene makes it seem like Angela and Elliot are the only ones who are in trouble. She never once brings herself into it. At no point is there a 'Please help me' angle. She tells Angela to do this if she wants to help herself and if she wants to help Elliot.

During the conversation with Angela and Ollie, Angela freaks out when Ollie admits that he gave them a description of CD guy, Darlene's boyfriend. Why would this bother Angela so much if she doesn't even know who CD guy is in connection to Darlene? She was there when Ollie was handed the CD but she and the guy didn't exchange any dialogue. Supposedly she doesn't know this guy at all and has never interacted with him, yet she's starting to feel panicked when Ollie admits that he told the FBI about this guy and gave them a description. We've never heard Darlene and Angela discuss him or his role in all of this. 

I feel like the parking lot guy and Ollie are in very similar positions regarding the FBI, so this makes me think that Ollie is going to be the next to die because he's the last person who knows anything who isn't apart of Fsociety or the Dark Army.

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

He tortured the IT guy for the info.  Because he wanted an explanation of what the two of them had actually worked on.

Ok. That makes sense. I had just taken it as he saw the activity and tortured/killed the guy as punishment/because he was no longer useful, and to show Elliot the consequences of disobedience. But the info could have been extracted from him rather than from directly monitoring the computer.

[AliShibaz]

23 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm going to take most of my thoughts on this episode to the speculation thread but a few things in this episode jumped out at me. 

During the conversation with Angela and Darlene, Darlene makes it seem like Angela and Elliot are the only ones who are in trouble. She never once brings herself into it. At no point is there a 'Please help me' angle. She tells Angela to do this if she wants to help herself and if she wants to help Elliot.

During the conversation with Angela and Ollie, Angela freaks out when Ollie admits that he gave them a description of CD guy, Darlene's boyfriend. Why would this bother Angela so much if she doesn't even know who CD guy is in connection to Darlene? She was there when Ollie was handed the CD but she and the guy didn't exchange any dialogue. Supposedly she doesn't know this guy at all and has never interacted with him, yet she's starting to feel panicked when Ollie admits that he told the FBI about this guy and gave them a description. We've never heard Darlene and Angela discuss him or his role in all of this. 

I feel like the parking lot guy and Ollie are in very similar positions regarding the FBI, so this makes me think that Ollie is going to be the next to die because he's the last person who knows anything who isn't apart of Fsociety or the Dark Army.

I think it makes a lot of sense that Ollie will soon die because his part in this show is now all over. He has nowhere to go and nothing else to do.

As far as Ray torturing RT, I got the strong impression that Ray's thug was watching his phone all the time Elliot and RT were sitting together at the monitor. I figured the thug was watching his phone and could see exactly what was happening on the monitor. That doesn't seem like a hard thing to do. Ray didn't need to torture RT. I thought his facial injuries were the result of the first beating he was given by the thug. I'm not at all sure there was a second. But I am often wrong about this show.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

A Whiterose By This One Other Name Would Smell As Sweet On Mr. Robot

Clocking Minister Yung.

[AliShibaz]

It is def true the last time Elliot went to the authorities, things worked out badly. So those of you who believe he won't do that are very likely correct.

I have snipped the remainder of this post and placed it in the Season Two Speculation thread in my attempt to conform to the rules of this board. I will post it under the title "Speculation Associated with Season 2 Episode 5".

I'm having difficulty placing a link into this thread that links to my post in the Speculation thread. I don't know why. But I have been unable to accomplish this and I hope some kindhearted mod might please help arrange it for me.  If it turns out the following link is in fact acceptable then please withdraw my previous comment. Sorry.

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/31352-season-two-speculation-mr-robot/#comment-2449281

Edited August 8, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

4 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

A Whiterose By This One Other Name Would Smell As Sweet On Mr. Robot

I'm not at all certain the ambush took place at some "FBI corral" as stated by the author. If the reason she said that was because the FBI agents were carrying guns and it's highly unlikely they would be permitted to do that anywhere else in Beijing, then I will have to take my hat off to her and admit that is an excellent observation.

Unfortunately though, I would also have to say the sound effects during this shoot-out were very poor. Semi-auto pistols do not sound anything like they were made to sound during that episode - unless they were .22s - but these particular pistols did not look anything like .22s. It may seem like a very minor criticism. But when everything else was so well done, I'm sorry but I just feel the need to wonder why they couldn't get such a small detail right. It's not like there was a whole lot of conversation going on that we needed to hear and that required the gunshots to be low volume.

To press this point home, I'm also saddened to say that many of the lines of dialog in this show are very difficult to hear. I don't know why. Perhaps it may be due to my approaching 65 years old. I sure hope not. But I'd really like to hear what the actors are saying and in many cases I find it very difficult to make out what they are saying. This despite the fact that I replay the lines several times and crank up the volume as much as I can.

[hnygrl]

Quote

To press this point home, I'm also saddened to say that many of the lines of dialog in this show are very difficult to hear. I don't know why. Perhaps it may be due to my approaching 65 years old. I sure hope not. But I'd really like to hear what the actors are saying and in many cases I find it very difficult to make out what they are saying. This despite the fact that I replay the lines several times and crank up the volume as much as I can.

This is one of the shows I MUST watch with captions on because the dialog is often mumbled or delivered in a monotone voice (Elliott. All. The time)

I assumed that the reason Elliot got his butt kicked was because they put a flag on certain files and if anyone accesses one of those files, the creators would be notified. Stupid of Elliot to forget that. And I also think he may have already sent the website/files anonymously to the authorities. 

But then again, this IS Elliot, the bat-crap-crazy one...so this could all be in his head....they beat him up a little but didn't KILL him? Why would they ever trust him to complete the job now? He's good enough that even with them monitoring his every move, he could squeeze out a mayday or three...

This is the kind of show you rewatch a million times in order to catch all the nuances you missed the other million times you watched them.

Angela should really be careful what she does inside EvilCorp...that CEO ain't stupid and I'm sure she's monitored/watched 24/7.  I THOUGHT she was only there because she amused him, or he had the hots for her and was biding his time before he struck.

But now? I'm just paranoid enough to think that maybe the bossman has her there on PURPOSE because he knows that she knows something about 5/9. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by hnygrl

[AliShibaz]

11 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

This is one of the shows I MUST watch with captions on because the dialog is often mumbled or delivered in a monotone voice (Elliott. All. The time)

I assumed that the reason Elliot got his butt kicked was because they put a flag on certain files and if anyone accesses one of those files, the creators would be notified. Stupid of Elliot to forget that. And I also think he may have already sent the website/files anonymously to the authorities. 

But then again, this IS Elliot, the bat-crap-crazy one...so this could all be in his head....they beat him up a little but didn't KILL him? Why would they ever trust him to complete the job now? He's good enough that even with them monitoring his every move, he could squeeze out a mayday or three...

This is the kind of show you rewatch a million times in order to catch all the nuances you missed the other million times you watched them.

Angela should really be careful what she does inside EvilCorp...that CEO ain't stupid and I'm sure she's monitored/watched 24/7.  I THOUGHT she was only there because she amused him, or he had the hots for her and was biding his time before he struck.

But now? I'm just paranoid enough to think that maybe the bossman has her there on PURPOSE because he knows that she knows something about 5/9. 

Oh! I rejoice in your post. I thought I'd be in for a load of criticism for complaining the dialog was too difficult to make out.

Also, your comment about watching each episode millions of times.

There were two days last week where I just watched every episode of Season 2 over and over again - all day long. So many of the events are  now burned into my memory. But I still can't tell what is fact and what is fiction. I feel like I've met a soulmate. So nice to have met you!

[ruby24]

I think there's some kind of romantic feelings between Eliot and Angela. He doesn't say it, but his dream last week was fairly clear, imo, and that talk between them this week seemed to hint at it too.

Am I the only person who sees that? It just doesn't seem totally platonic to me. But without anybody actually saying anything, I guess I could be misinterpreting. It doesn't seem like it though.

[AliShibaz]

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think there's some kind of romantic feelings between Eliot and Angela. He doesn't say it, but his dream last week was fairly clear, imo, and that talk between them this week seemed to hint at it too.

Am I the only person who sees that? It just doesn't seem totally platonic to me. But without anybody actually saying anything, I guess I could be misinterpreting. It doesn't seem like it though.

Holy Smoke! How could he not have any romantic feelings for her? She is clever. She is capable. She is beautiful. And best of all she has a kind heart. She is a wonderful lady. Most any man should feel like the luckiest man in the world just to spend some time with Angela. I know that I would.

I also wrote a large paragraph about Darlene but I had to strike it. I wanted to ask people here the same question you asked about Angela, namely --- Am I the only person who sees that?

Unfortunately, my opinion about Darlene was very much opposite of that about Angela.  But after writing that large paragraph,  I realized it would be inappropriate to post those opinions in this thread (as they were off topic). Unfortunately, I can't imagine where it would be appropriate.

Edited August 9, 2016 by AliShibaz

[possibilities]

The sound is impossible on this show. I watch with captions, too. It's not only the mumbling, but also that the voice over means Elliot's lips are not moving even when he faces the camera. So there's no visual cue-ing to help supplement to low volume mumbling. It's not just him though. I think most of the dialogue is hard to hear.

Also, I thought we were supposed to think they were blatantly exposing the attraction between Elliot and Angela. I didn't think it was subtle at all. I mean, he said he couldn't handle calling her because he's still (basically) insane, and she said they could be friends. Who says "we could be friends" to someone as a consolation, when that someone is obviously their friend already, unless the implication is that they might have been romantically involved? Maybe I'm reading into it more than I realize, but I thought that conversation was fairly explicit (especially considering how non-explicit most things are on this show).

I like the idea that Dom and Elliot may be on somewhat of a collision course with each other. I do think she's being set up as the main person in the FBI who is at all competent in tracking fSociety. She's also not much of a team player, goes off on her own a lot, and doesn't seem to really take orders from anyone. She does things her own way, and people seem to allow her to do it, because (I'm guessing) she has a track record and they trust it. I see her as somewhat unpredicatible in terms of what she would or would not do if/when she "catches" Elliot and Co. They've portrayed her as almost superhumanly lucky at this point, though, which is a little suspicious to me. I just don't know what to make of that. She doesn't even seem real, she's so on another plane compared to everyone else in the agency so far.

[ganesh]

I thought Eliot and Angela used to be in a relationship? In the episode last season where Angela and Darlene were tracking down Eliot, when we learned who Mr Robot really is, didn't Darlene allude to that with her?

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I thought Eliot and Angela used to be in a relationship? In the episode last season where Angela and Darlene were tracking down Eliot, when we learned who Mr Robot really is, didn't Darlene allude to that with her?

I thought so too.

[ganesh]

I always thought that from the start, but distinctly remember that scene. Was there a v/o from Eliot in the pilot about her? 

[ruby24]

Oh, did they say that? It always seemed kinda vague, but the scenes that Eliot and Angela have had together always seemed to me to be filled with this underlying tension/longing that just didn't come across as platonic.

I think he's only called her his "childhood friend." But after his first season dream with them in what looked like wedding garb, and the way she told him in a later episode that she thought she'd never "have to" miss him...I was wondering if that would be another reveal, like the Darlene thing. We find out that they were together, or engaged or something, and he's somehow forgotten that as well.

But that hasn't happened yet, so who knows? I still think those two are purposely playing their scenes together as romantic though. So I wonder if there will be some kind of reveal at some point.

[candle96]

12 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think there's some kind of romantic feelings between Eliot and Angela. He doesn't say it, but his dream last week was fairly clear, imo, and that talk between them this week seemed to hint at it too.

Am I the only person who sees that? It just doesn't seem totally platonic to me. But without anybody actually saying anything, I guess I could be misinterpreting. It doesn't seem like it though.

If you remember, there was a scene from last season when they were at Allsafe. They had some dialogue and there was an awkward pause, as if they were about to kiss. But then they and everyone at Allsafe looked at the televisions, because the Hack had begun. So yeah, I'd say there's definitely something there. He also didn't like Ollie from the beginning. I assumed part of that was jealousy.

[candle96]

That ending was pretty shocking. Like others, I assume White Rose is behind it. I'm wondering if what really put it in motion is when Dom asked about the information they had on the Dark Army. If you remember, her boss seemed hesitant to bring it up, but the Dom pushed ahead and asked without caring about the sensitive nature of it. WR might've realized they're closer to figuring out who he is than he initially thought. It'll be interesting to see how that long scene between WR and Dom plays out, assuming she survives the shooting.

Excited to see this episode get things back on track to the Mr. Robot I liked so much from last year. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by candle96
becuase it's "they're" not "their" and I'm embarrassed I made that mistake!

[hnygrl]

OH MY GOD!!! I JUST REALIZED!!!

All of a sudden, out of the clear blue sky, it hit me. I didn't see it when I was watching the show, but now, a week later, and just sitting at my desk not-working-but-looking-busy, that chinese guy sure looked familiar. And now I know why.

I was imagining white rose's face in my mind, and then the chinese guy (forget his name) that brought the Feds to China, the one who was privately entertaining the Fed lady (forget her name, Streep's kid) and was showing her his "sister's" wardrobe?

HE'S WHITE ROSE!!!! OH. MY.  GOD!!!!

Same face!  Whoa. Now I gotta watch 3, 4 and 5 all over again.

Why didn't I see it? I  should've known they did that dramatic reveal at the end of ep. 4 for a reason...it just didn't click until now.

Am I the only one who missed it? Probably huh?

[AliShibaz]

8 hours ago, hnygrl said:

OH MY GOD!!! I JUST REALIZED!!!

All of a sudden, out of the clear blue sky, it hit me. I didn't see it when I was watching the show, but now, a week later, and just sitting at my desk not-working-but-looking-busy, that chinese guy sure looked familiar. And now I know why.

I was imagining white rose's face in my mind, and then the chinese guy (forget his name) that brought the Feds to China, the one who was privately entertaining the Fed lady (forget her name, Streep's kid) and was showing her his "sister's" wardrobe?

HE'S WHITE ROSE!!!! OH. MY.  GOD!!!!

Same face!  Whoa. Now I gotta watch 3, 4 and 5 all over again.

Why didn't I see it? I  should've known they did that dramatic reveal at the end of ep. 4 for a reason...it just didn't click until now.

Am I the only one who missed it? Probably huh?

 

Don't feel bad. I think the only reason I got that connection was because someone here explained it.  Ultimately, it is a very bizarre aspect of an often bizarre show. I watched all five episodes in this season many, many times and I'm still lacking an understanding of many fundamental connections between the characters and subplots. But the connections I do understand have made this show really excellent and I'm very happy that I discovered it.

This episode seems to reveal that China's economic interests (its technology factories)  may directly conflict with those interests of other nations (especially the USA) and there is a kind of war going on - if not between or among nations, then between or among various economic groups or interests. This war may not be among national interests as much as it is among the interests of billionaire manufacturers of technological products.  It may just be co-incidental that many of the people involved are Americans or Chinese (maybe Japanese too). But my guess is that wars are no longer being fought between nations. Instead, they seem to being fought between groups of corporations.

The most bizarre connection is that WR seems to be (at the very least), a  cross dresser or fetishist who may actually believe he has two split personalities - one of which may be his sister). He may well be clinically insane. The next episode promises to be very exciting. Doesn't it? Surely, it will play out that some powerful straight-laced billionaires will conclude WR is just insane and needs to be killed because he is just too much of a threat. He knows too much and may implicate people who can't stand to be implicated (especially powerful people in the governments of the nations involved).  I  know.  I  know. So many of my posts seem to speculate that murder will abound during the rest of this show. But, I just can't see it any other way.

Do you remember the wonderful film "Rising Sun" starring Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes? Sean Connery's character explains how these kinds of wars play out in the Japanese economy.  If you haven't seen it,  I would highly recommend it.  It's extremely entertaining.

Edited August 10, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Cardie]

My take on Whiterose is that she is a trans woman who hasn't undergone any gender reassignment treatments or surgery and maintains her biological male gender in her government and economic dealings. Her time fixation to me seems more of an indication of OCD than anything about her two separate gender performances indicate mental illness. I don't think she suffers from dissociative identity disorder like Elliot does, i.e. having blackouts or imagining people who aren't there. Of course all the evidence on that front is hardly conclusive yet.

[hnygrl]

White Rose appears to be a person you do NOT take lightly. He/She's dangerous as hell and the strike against the Agents proved that. HE/SHE is the leader of the Dark Army or my name ain't what it is.

I agree about all the killing (I did notice, as was posted earlier, that when someone is gonna die? There are red Chinese Lanterns instead of regular lights. The hallway leading the the feds' meeting place was lined with them.), there's just no other way to keep our primary characters safe. Since we know Elliot's NOT going to be killed or even that badly hurt, it only stands to reason that the bad guy will end up either dead or under arrest.

Should be interesting to see how this will play out over the next few episodes.

 

And I still think he's in a Mental Hospital.

Or Prison. That may be why he didn't have access to a computer, he had to use the one in the warden's office/help the warden fix his computer.

[AliShibaz]

In this episode, when Dom arrives in China, she passes by two people wearing very strange masks on an escalator. The masks appear to be some kind of an animal with tusks. We have seen that same mask before - at least once and maybe more. Dom turns and stares at these people as if the masks have some significance to her. Does anyone know just what significance these masks to have?

[SailorGirl]

On 8/6/2016 at 6:49 PM, Giant Misfit said:

She's no Meryl Streep either. Between her and her sister, I'd be hard pressed to figure out which one of them is the lesser of two bad actresses receiving all the benefits nepotism provides. 

Sidebar: Let's not forget about Kate friggin' Hudson--one of the worst actresses ever! If she weren't Goldie Hawn's daughter she'd have been laughed out of every audition she ever went on -- as she rightfully should be.

Rant over . . . back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Neurochick]

On 8/8/2016 at 7:52 PM, AliShibaz said:

To press this point home, I'm also saddened to say that many of the lines of dialog in this show are very difficult to hear. I don't know why. Perhaps it may be due to my approaching 65 years old. I sure hope not. But I'd really like to hear what the actors are saying and in many cases I find it very difficult to make out what they are saying. This despite the fact that I replay the lines several times and crank up the volume as much as I can.

It's not your age, I watch this show with closed captions, every time, even if I watch online.

[hincandenza]

On 8/9/2016 at 8:57 PM, AliShibaz said:

In this episode, when Dom arrives in China, she passes by two people wearing very strange masks on an escalator. The masks appear to be some kind of an animal with tusks. We have seen that same mask before - at least once and maybe more. Dom turns and stares at these people as if the masks have some significance to her. Does anyone know just what significance these masks to have?

They are dark army masks, if I recall; just like f.society has those weird masks that I think of as "Evil Monopoly Guy" masks, the Dark Army has some kind of chinese dragon thing.  I think we've seen a glimpse of that earlier this season.  Thematically, it makes sense: the show seems to be about duality, and about how modern war is conducted- with secretive financial force and sabotage more than overt tanks and jets.  Naturally then, the two "sides" of the 21st century war are represented by parallel masks (and would almost speak to f.society being an unwitting pawn of US interests, through Tyrell or Price or others).  Masks representing the surface world hiding the one underneath that We the People aren't supposed to know about, and masks of these "respectable" elites having their darker sides hidden behind that power and money.

 

It's funny, this show (not funny "ha-ha", but funny "hmm...").  I still enjoy watching it, but I don't rush to watch it as soon as the next episode is out.  For example, this episode I only watched a couple of days ago, and I think it's because the plot isn't really "there" this season.  Last season, the overall plot was "the hack", whereas this season it's "the aftermath", but without that tight sense of purpose, we're just getting a lot of vignettes that are kinda-sorta starting to mesh together.

I say that, because it is still one of my favorite shows to watch.  Nothing on TV is quite like this show right now, so it's like having an exotic meal from some cuisine you've never tried, and you are left to ponder the different flavors and tastes in a way you wouldn't with more traditional fare.  The show is, first off, visually stunning, and fascinatingly surreal.  I am reminded often of the look and feel of the Kubrick film "Eyes Wide Shut" (one of my all-time favorites, and one with in some ways a very similar theme), and the way it presents a world that seems just slightly off-kilter and full of vague menacing, not unlike David Lynch but with a different visual language.  Second, while I don't know where Esmail & Co. are ultimately going or what the big "point" is of a show that is so clearly meant to be a funhouse mirror to our own very current and modern world, it does trigger some interesting musings and epiphanies about the world, as I digest it over the course of the week after watching.  

I feel I could churn out a very long essay with fragments of my thoughts over the last season and a half, but I think it's been about getting a larger perspective on these forces that play out on the world.  I mean, as much as the White Rose reveal at the very end of last season was a big twist- that the most dangerous hacker in the world (excepting maybe Elliott) was some kind of public business person/powerful figure when he met with Phillip Price, and now we know he is at the least a Minister of Security- in a historical sense, that's not a twist at all.  Power cultivates power, and war sadly seems to be the natural state of things: animals will use violence and death to get what they want, that is the bloody pageant of evolution, and so long as human innovation can build ever-better weapons then we will continue to fight far past the point of any reason or sense.  Because if we don't, someone else will (I've also finally started watching "The Americans", so this theme of omnipresent extinction and maintaining a precarious balanced of Mutual Assured Destruction weighs heavily on my mind these days).

It is only natural then that the powerful elite, in and out of formal office, would cultivate their own network of hackers and saboteurs as much as they field armies, spies, and diplomats.  We know for a fact that our own (US) government repeatedly has toppled democratic governments and engaged in other extrajudicial/non-traditional warcraft, and it stands to reason that ECorp and the US government in the show "Mr. Robot"- as much as with China- would build their own plausibly deniable army of hackers.  It makes sense even that Tyrell could have been part of some larger plan that Price had, just like White Rose, fighting their "secret war" that has now spilled quite visibly out into the larger world.  This is all part of an eternal battle that has been playing out since history - even biology itself- began; only the tools and techniques have changed.

 

On 8/7/2016 at 3:23 PM, possibilities said:

From Ray's point of view, he doesn't know if Elliot is the sort of person who would object to the illegal activities or not. Elliot has done a lot of illegal things himself, and even though WE know Elliot has a kind of moral code and white knight self-image, Ray doesn't know, not for sure. I initially thought Ray wold of course kill Elliot (except for Elliot being central to the show and thus unlikely to be killed because of show reasons), but if Ray convinces himself that Elliot is not a threat, he becomes a valuable ally.

If Ray has cloned the system and is monitoring it, he might realize that Elliot was hacking the FBI, which gives him leverage -- he can try threatening Elliot with exposure. I don't know which case would be the bigger one for law enforcement, but they now have dirt on each other, and could try offering cops the info they have, in a plea bargain, incriminating the other to mitigate their own sentences. Ray knows Elliot doesn't want to be exposed. Threatening to do so could be enough to keep him quiet, depending on what kind of person he is, and Ray may not be sure of that yet.

Or he can try bargaining with Elliot-- E helps R with IT stuff, R gives E access to continue E's own hacking/illegal activities. Again, Ray may not be sure that Elliot would turn down that offer.

It's either a mutually assured destruction strategy or a you scratch my back, I scratch yours scenario. Either way, Ray is spared the trouble of having to find another IT person, which also minimizes his risk of exposure. Every time he tries to get another person to help, that person knows his business and can hurt him. And murdering someone also has risks, so I guess I can see him trying one or both of the other options first. With a little battery to show he's serious, as shown.

Or, he can hold Elliot captive and use him for tech purposes. Or he can threaten Elliot, that if Elliot does not co-operate, Ray will harm Angela or Darlene or do some other terrible thing he suspects Elliot would not want to have happen. Ray may have looked into Elliot, had him followed, know more than he's revealed about who and what Elliot cares about.

Either way, Ray benefits from keeping Elliot alive, at least temporarily.

One thing that struck me: the very first scene of this series was Elliot busting a hardcore prolific child pornographer, yet he seemed mightily shocked at Ray's site, which surprised me: he's someone far too technologically aware and experienced to not have a good idea of the darkest sides of humanity and the internet.

I haven't watched the episode that airs tonight, but as of this S02E05 episode it was unclear what Ray actually knows about Elliott.  He knew enough to know he was a damned good hacker, but it was somewhat implied in an earlier episode that he might be working for ECorp (hence all his prying questions).  I happen to believe that when you follow the dirtiest money in the world far enough, you'll find laundered off-shore bank accounts and pin-striped suits, so Ray might be the guy running one small arm of an operation that ultimately goes up to "respectable" people like Price or White Rose.   

However, when I read your bolded part: it gave me some clarity.  I now believe- and could be wrong- that Ray only thinks of him as another hacker type he can fuck with and intimidate, like he did the rattail guy, and has no idea that Elliot is basically the biggest criminal on the planet right now.  Because based on what you said, the world's powerful- and their minions in law enforcement- wouldn't give two flying shits about some drugs, guns, or human sex slaves, compared to snaring the guy that fucked with all their money.  If Ray is connected to ECorp, all this penny ante stuff is a pointless and inexplicable waste of time.  Whereas if he is just some garden variety evil person, then there is the dramatic irony that Ray's risk from and value to law enforcement compared to Elliot, is like that of a tadpole compared to Moby Dick.

Edited August 11, 2016 by hincandenza

[Cardie]

^^Brilliant post, hincandenza.

[Hecate7]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:07 PM, xaxat said:

One reason Elliot might be hesitant to rat out Ray? The last time he sent info to the police (Shayla's drug dealer) it didn't turn out well.

Ray doesn't have those kinds of skills. I don't think he understood what the IT guy was talking about when they were discussed migrating servers. 

I thought Ray's speech about the dog was about Ray becoming Elliot's master. Ray doesn't have to worry about Elliot going to the authorities, because Elliot is trapped in a room with nothing. He will get food, medicine, a place to pee, etc...if Ray decides to give it to him. If Elliot doesn't cooperate or Ray decides he's a liability, all Ray has to do is just leave Elliot in that room and let him die. He doesn't even have to actually kill him. At the moment, he doesn't even have to threaten him. Elliot is smart enough to realize what he has to do.

[hincandenza]

On 8/12/2016 at 5:04 PM, Cardie said:

^^Brilliant post, hincandenza.

Why thank you very much- what a compliment!  Sadly, I got around to watching the next episode (S02E06), and found it to be a let down.  But that's a story for another thread...