Why Isn't This an Event at the Games?

[legaleagle53]

To say nothing of the fact that it rather cheapens the idea of "winter sports," which refers exclusively to sports that are played in the snow and on ice (that's why the Winter Olympics is held separately from the Summer Olympics and always has been from the start of the Winter Games in 1924, even during the time when the Winter and Summer Olympics were held in the same year).  Move too many summer events to the Winter Olympics, and it ceases to be distinctively the "Winter" Olympics -- at that point, you might as well combine the two into a full month-long competition held once every four years.  You'd just need to be able to find a host city and climate where Summer and Winter exist simultaneously so that you could have both types of games going at the same time.

Edited August 21, 2016 by legaleagle53

[kalystia1983]

42 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

To say nothing of the fact that it rather cheapens the idea of "winter sports," which refers exclusively to sports that are played in the snow and on ice (that's why the Winter Olympics is held separately from the Summer Olympics and always has been from the start of the Winter Games in 1924, even during the time when the Winter and Summer Olympics were held in the same year).  Move too many summer events to the Winter Olympics, and it ceases to be distinctively the "Winter" Olympics -- at that point, you might as well combine the two into a full month-long competition held once every four years.  You'd just need to be able to find a host city and climate where Summer and Winter co-exist simultaneously so that you could have both types of games going at the same time.

Totally get what you are saying about the winter Olympics, they have done a really good job of keeping them to only winter sports.  However, I guess my question is what makes the indoor sports in the Summer Olympics summer sports? I don't know the answer to that.

To be honest, I tend to enjoy watching the Winter Olympics more as I feel I don't have as much overload as I do with the summer games where there is just so much.  I feel like I spend more time getting to see all the sports as there are less of them.  So this comes from someone who is a Winter Olympics fan.  

I guess my original post had more to do with rethinking the way we look at the Olympic sports so it's less about adding and subtracting and more about shifting.  

And..well...I kinda think that Sochi and Bejing in 2022 are odd hosts for the Winter Olympics. I logically know why the IOC picked them (bribes and everyone pulling out respectively), but....hey maybe a month long both winter summer games are what they are going for! ?

[MaKaM]

If we are starting a list of what can go, maybe they should look at viewership/money from each and just start cutting the lagging ones. NBC should have pretty good data from this Olympics on what is important enough that people would stream it live or watch a rerun and what was watched or DVRed. That only shows for the US but since NBC pays a huge portion to broadcast, they have a lot of pull. Combine that with data from around the world to see what isn't being watched.  Trim some of the Group D sports (pick three or four from canoe/kayaking, equestrian, fencing, handball, field hockey, sailing, taekwondo, triathlon and wrestling.) Cut the Group E sport (Modern Pentathalon). Kill Golf before it gets entrenched. Cut anything that isn't co-ed (sayonara Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming). Martial arts are over-represented (between taekwondo, judo, boxing, and wrestling) so with any luck Karate is only in for one because of the local appeal. Weightlifting should be on the chopping block (or lose a few weight categories or the number of athletes participating be reduced) as punishment for the level of doping present. Boxing seems to be dirty as hell and there should be some repercussions there. The different tiers and associated sports are detailed here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2013/05/29/swimming-gymnastics-get-olympic-revenue-boost/2368541/

Of other sports out there that aren't in the Olympics, I personally don't have any favorites but I would like to see more spots allocated to the established sports. Maybe they should just cut boxing, wrestling, and the other martial arts and just put in MMA. I am a fan of less judged sports overall (and I count anything with a referee as judged to some extent. '72 Basketball gold as an example) so adding in surfing and skateboarding and other similar sports isn't super appealing to me. If the climbing one is about speed, I am cool with it.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, kalystia1983 said:

Totally get what you are saying about the winter Olympics, they have done a really good job of keeping them to only winter sports.  However, I guess my question is what makes the indoor sports in the Summer Olympics summer sports? I don't know the answer to that.

The fact that they don't involve snow and ice is what makes them summer sports.  It's why basketball is a summer sport, even though the basketball season in the US is during the winter months here (December through March).

[Mittengirl]

I absolutely think all of the " combat" sports could easily be moved to winter.  A few years ago my area hosted a large international table tennis competition, maybe even a world championship, and it was held in a multipurpose convention center facility.  I would think those would be the type of sports that could be easily moved - anything that can be held in a multipurpose facility.   Any city/area that would want to host a Winter Olympics would have existing facilities that could host t.t., badminton, judo, wrestling, etc.  Also, moving sports with multiple weight classes would move a fair number of athletes out of the summer games, allowing room for new sports to be added.

[MaKaM]

The wrestlers can skate out to the wrestling ring and then start wrestling. And the weightlifting can have a version done on skates added to the current types. More medals, y'all! Taekwondo on skis! But yeah, the IOC is going to have to risk offending someone soon and get the size of the summer games down (and the number of specialized venues reduced) or they are going to be reduced to begging cities to offer to host. Or I guess Qatar will get their Summer Olympics - no bribes needed!

[biakbiak]

5 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

The fact that they don't involve snow and ice is what makes them summer sports.  It's why basketball is a summer sport, even though the basketball season in the US is during the winter months here (December through March).

The NBA goes throught June.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, biakbiak said:

The NBA goes throught June.

The point is that it's not a winter sport, despite the fact that the basketball season used to be confined to the winter months in the US.  I remember about 25 years ago when someone asked why it wasn't considered a winter sport when that's when the professional season was played at the time (December through March), and the response was that winter sports are specifically defined as those involving snow and ice.

[FormerMod-a1]

I always wondered why some completely indoor sports (i.e. don't have an outdoor counterpart) were defined as summer games.  I always thought some could be moved to even things out.  Now I know.

So, that begs the question, since rock climbing is going to be a summer olympic sport, will ice climbing become a winter one eventually? (said somewhat tongue in cheek).

[MaKaM]

Actually, despite the lack of ice or snow in them, moving a few of the "summer" games to the Winter would broaden the appeal of the winter olympics around the world. Seems like a lot of countries have judo athletes (as an example), and while it is unlikely that some of the desert or tropical countries will frequently qualify athletes in snowboarding or biathalon, they could get someone in some of the indoor sports that don't *have* to be in the Summer games which would encourage broadcasting of the Winter Olympics to countries that normally don't care. Classically winter sports are generally the prerogative of the rich and privileged and broadening the appeal outside of the current narrow confines would be a good thing. Maybe they could add a winter marathon.

[legaleagle53]

13 minutes ago, MaKaM said:

Actually, despite the lack of ice or snow in them, moving a few of the "summer" games to the Winter would broaden the appeal of the winter olympics around the world. Seems like a lot of countries have judo athletes (as an example), and while it is unlikely that some of the desert or tropical countries will frequently qualify athletes in snowboarding or biathalon, they could get someone in some of the indoor sports that don't *have* to be in the Summer games which would encourage broadcasting of the Winter Olympics to countries that normally don't care. Classically winter sports are generally the prerogative of the rich and privileged and broadening the appeal outside of the current narrow confines would be a good thing. Maybe they could add a winter marathon.

The winter equivalent of the marathon is the men's 50k and the women's 30K cross-country.

[SnideAsides]

But the "summer olympics" aren't officially the "Summer Olympics". They're just "the Olympic Games" (as opposed to "the Olympic Winter Games"), and the only reason the summer distinction is a thing is because they usually happen to be scheduled during the summer months. Both Melbourne and Sydney were held in the local spring, and Rio was held in the local winter. I'm also not sure we should be moving more sports to winter when we already have trouble finding people willing to take the games. That'd just make the current issues with the winter games even worse. (That said, Japan is sneakily stealing China's thunder re being the first place to host both versions and is holding some soccer pool matches in Sapporo.)

I do think we need to cut the sports back down to about 25-28 though. We're going to be at thirty-eight in Tokyo if you count the aquatic events, volleyballs, and baseball/softball separately; that's fucking insane. But which ones?

Athletics, swimming, cycling, and gymnastics are obviously staying. (But we can cut open-water swimming, trampoline, mountain bike, and BMX; the latter in particular seems to deliver remarkably little for what it supposedly offers, and results in a white-elephant stadium that can't be reused for anything else.)

Modern Pentathlon was created specifically for the Olympics, and is scheduled when most other sports are wrapping up, so it can stay. By extension, we also keep component events equestrian, shooting, and fencing, plus the actual modern equivalent triathlon.

The big winners of these games in terms of sports were clearly rugby sevens (big impact) and field hockey (successfully updated its format to suit modern TV); they can both stay. On the other hand, FIFA doesn't seem willing to respect either the host city concept or the tight scheduling of the Olympics, so soccer can be cut.

With some minor rescheduling, we could repurpose the venues for the above sports to fit in diving, synchronised swimming, water polo (I feel like daytime water polo and nighttime swimming could work?), and archery (trap shooting in Week 1, archery in Week 2?), so they can all stay.

Keep softball, ditch baseball. Men's softball would be a way around the Major League Baseball issues that used to present themselves every four years.

Karate seems like overkill when we already have judo and taekwondo; I think we probably only need two of the three at most, and I feel like judo is the least accessible.

Sailing is pretty much there just to keep Greece happy, so it has to stay even though it probably shouldn't. As far as the other boat-based sports go, rowing and canoe sprint use the same arena so can stay; canoe slalom needs its own unique course but at least it's a pretty small and cheap one compared to many of the other sports.

Badminton and table tennis are there mostly for diversity and are pretty easy for casual viewers to follow; I have reservations about both but you kind of need a few sports that function basically only as filler. Let's reschedule them so they can use the same stadium though.

Golf just didn't work, both because of the format used and because the big-name athletes didn't give a shit about turning up. Tennis works marginally better, but it still feels out of place. I'm sure the Olympics mean a lot to Serena Williams, but she's an outlier and it's just not an important part of the tennis calendar as a whole. Both of them are cut.

Weightlifting seems to be actively trying to improve its image. I don't know too much about how the sport is staged, but it seems to me like one you could hold inside a theatre rather than a proper stadium, which would also make it significantly more sustainable than many other Olympic sports? It stays.

Volleyball Mothership can stay; Beach Volleyball can go. I get the appeal, but also, we have plenty of sports where you can ogle the sexy athletes and it isn't 1998 any more.

Basketball... the sport's best days are definitely behind it, and there frankly needs to be a way to neuter the US dominance, but I'm actually fine with it staying.

Surfing's an okay sport but it doesn't seem like a good fit for the Olympics, and it's going to narrow down the options for host cities even more than sailing already does. Sport climbing also seems like a poor choice. I'm sure it's a lovely sport but their whole pitch seemed to amount to "height is the one thing missing from the Olympics", and we already have diving and pole vault. Both surfing and climbing are cut.

That puts us at 26 sports kept, 8 cut, and 4 left to decide on: Boxing, handball, skateboarding, and wrestling. All of them have their issues, but all of them also have their selling points. Wrestling and boxing both have historically shitty judging, but again: perfect filler sports. Stick 'em in a convention centre environment rather than a half-empty stadium and they'd regain a lot of their impact. Handball is a confusing sport that nobody really understands, but being exposed to some unusual sports is a huge part of the Olympics' appeal; it probably needs to share a stadium with something like volleyball though. Skateboarding probably needs to be seen before it can be judged, but if the rumours are true that it's going to be split into a street race and a skate park-based trick contest, I think it could work well and leave behind a venue that will actually get some damn use for once. I think we should keep all four, but have them on probation for a bit. Give them one last chance to prove their worth.

Oof. I need a fucking midori.

[Daisy]

First I think we need to remember the five sports that are going to be added for for Tokyo only. There is no real talk of any of them being on the Olympic programme past 2020. (and I think, if they are like London, whose bid was "we're using existing sites and we are not building a baseball diamond, suck it IOC." that was the nail in coffin - there were others reasons) and poof. Golf + the Five new ones are gone. So that's not an issue, I don't think. 

And I also have to remind people (myself included) a lot of "what can stay, what can go" is very much what do we as North Americans like, and what we North Americans think can go. And part of this, like i mentioned in another post, it's also applying the "It's not the pinnacle of your sport so why you should be there."  I would think for Novak Djokovic who was sobbing when he left the court that as a professional tennis player - playing for his country and winning  a medal meant a lot for them. 

For every sport we can earmark can go - EuroAsia, Africa, can earmark sports they think can go. Outside the big four [heck, inside the top four]- we could sling back and forth why it can go and why it can stay. (which is probably why, other than baseball (and I think softball got axed for USA dominance, the same thing that Women's Hockey gets plagued with with USA/CAN dominance) it's so rare to see events taken off.  Not to mention there are a tonne of sports wanting and fighting to be on the Olympic Docket (cough, cricket, cough), and I know Rugby had been fighting for years and the compromise was rugby sevens. (and then we got to see Fiji win their first medal ever. Tears). 

For all the crap that the IOC (deservedly) gets, i wouldn't want this job for all the world.  Again for the most part, I think a lot of the summer sports. (Trampoline, Gymnastics (both etc), are in one area. Boxing, Wrestling etc ) are in one arena etc) I think the only things that are generally built are Olympic standard pools and velodromes (and in the Winter, Ovals, which usually get repurposed into either 1: training facilities or 2: housing). 

They are bloated, but I do think they are bloated to a point where they do work. I don't think (i'll have to look) anything is being added where you specifically have to build new infrastructure. We'll have to see if the 5 + events stay past Tokyo, but again, they were specifically stating those sports were only for 2020 (which I'd imagine, Karate, Baseball and Softball for obvious reasons), Golf was only on a 2 game programme, and I guess surfing and rock climbing to see if it "fits".

[mtlchick]

After trying it for the first time ever on Saturday (and still sore 2 days later): stand up paddle boarding. 

[shang yiet]

Speaking as an Asian, don't even think about removing badminton. This sport is taken seriously here (and in Denmark).

Edited August 22, 2016 by shang yiet

[Hanahope]

If they need a sport to replace rhythmic gymnastics and to use the gymnastics arena, could try gymnastic cheerleading.  More tumbling than RG, and adds stunts for drama, lots of oohs and aahs.  There's a little dancing, but usually no more than a floor exercise routine.  While a lot of teams are exclusively female, there's a lot of co-ed teams too, so can actually have both.  You can also divide the groups into small (15 or fewer people) and large (more than 15), for even more medals.

[blackwing]

I wouldn't support ballroom dancing in the Olympics.  I'm sure it requires a lot of hard work and dedication, but I don't think of it as a sport.  I think of it as talent.  If you're going to allow ballroom dancing in the Olympics, then why isn't there Olympic singing?  That involves talent too.  If ballroom dancing, why not Olympic chess?  I can't do what those grandmasters do either.  Doesn't mean it should be in the Olympics.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wouldn't support ballroom dancing in the Olympics.  I'm sure it requires a lot of hard work and dedication, but I don't think of it as a sport.  I think of it as talent.  If you're going to allow ballroom dancing in the Olympics, then why isn't there Olympic singing?  That involves talent too.  If ballroom dancing, why not Olympic chess?  I can't do what those grandmasters do either.  Doesn't mean it should be in the Olympics.

So why are ice dancing and figure skating in the Winter Olympics?  Why is the only valid measure of a sport whether the results can be demonstrated by a scoreboard, a stopwatch, or a tape measure?  Ballroom dancing is called DanceSPORT for a reason by those who are true participants in the sport. Don't believe me?  Ask any DanceSport participant what he or she has to do to stay at the top of his or her game besides learning the steps, partnership, and expression.  It's physically very demanding  and actually requires a lot of cross-training, especially in Showdance, which requires the athletes to have as much muscular and core strength and coordination as any football player, gymnast, or wrestler because lifts are involved, and they're not at all easy to execute safely without knowing the proper technique and without having even basic core and muscular strength, either for the lifter or the liftee.

Edited August 24, 2016 by legaleagle53

[blackwing]

10 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Ballroom dancing is called DanceSPORT for a reason by those who are true participants in the sport.

I had no idea it was called DanceSPORT, but I'm assuming it's called that by those who participate in it in an attempt to legitimise it as a "sport".  I don't doubt that it requires training and is difficult, I just don't think it qualifies as a sport.  If you want to include ballroom dancing, then I think you have to include Olympic singing.  Singing requires talent and training, and for those that would be competitive, there would undoubtedly be some sort of intensive dance routine that requires core strength and coordination as well.  Would professionals be allowed?  Could we see in our future Beyonce Knowles, 2024 Olympic gold medallist in Olympic singing?  Or would Jennifer Lopez break out a new dance and make a comeback and try to steal the title from her?  If you think ballroom dancing is a sport, then why isn't competitive singing a sport?

For that matter, why isn't Dog Show a sport?  It requires lots of training and is very competitive.  And you have to keep your dog healthy.  If Equestrian can be a sport, which depends in large part upon the performance of an animal and not just the human rider/trainer, why isn't Dog Show a sport?  If you want to allow ballroom dancing, then you have to allow for lots of hopeful medallists in Olympic Dog Show.

Or why not Olympic Video Gaming?  Requires lots of hand-eye coordination, training, memorisation of moves, skill.  If ballroom dancing should be an Olympic sport, then so should Olympic Video Gaming.  There's a lot of strategy involved.  When do you go to the bathroom?  A gaming session could last for hours, and there's no breaks allowed, so you have to time your break just right.  Do you go when a battle is just finished, while the round score is being calculated, and get back just in time not to miss anything?  That would require a lot of bladder control training too.  As well as the ability to quickly empty one's bladder.  That requires skill.  I foresee a bright future in Olympic Video Gaming.

Edited August 24, 2016 by blackwing

[legaleagle53]

38 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I had no idea it was called DanceSPORT, but I'm assuming it's called that by those who participate in it in an attempt to legitimise it as a "sport".  

It's actually called DanceSport.  I put the caps in for emphasis.

And it's more than just "ballroom dancing."  As with figure skating, it actually comprises five different disciplines, each with its own rules, techniques, and required elements: International Standard, International Latin, American Smooth, American Rhythm, and Showdance.

As for the rest of your argument, I'll answer that when you answer my question of why figure skating (and particularly ice dancing) are "sports" and are traditionally included in the Winter Olympics but DanceSport is not a "sport" and should not be included in the Summer Olympics.

Edited August 24, 2016 by legaleagle53

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

As for the rest of your argument, I'll answer that when you answer my question of why figure skating (and particularly ice dancing) are "sports" and are traditionally included in the Winter Olympics but DanceSport is not a "sport" and should not be included in the Summer Olympics.

I've already explained to you why I don't think ballroom dancing, or "DanceSport" as you call it, isn't a sport in my opinion.  I think it requires a lot of talent and training, but at the end of the day, to me, it's ballroom dancing.  As far as figure skating and ice dancing, I think ice dancing is particularly questionable.  But I don't make the rules, so I really don't have any vested interest in defending why the IOC considers them sports.  The IOC clearly doesn't think ballroom dancing is a sport, but they determined years ago that figure skating is.  And no, I don't really think that Olympic Singing, Olympic Dog Show, and Olympic Video Gaming belong in the Olympics, I was obviously being facetious.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, and I'm moving on.

[Daisy]

A few things. 
 

First of all.

The easiest way to answer why there will never be "Olympic Singing." or "Olympic Chess." etc - is simply put. There's no international federation for it. The same with Horse Racing. DanceSport has one. (actually, DogShowing has one too. hee). 

Then you look at the competitiveness of say a race horse, (which is more or less 3 years, so they'll either be too young for the Olympics, or literally just out of it) . Where as an eventing horse, if healthy can go to a multitude of Olympics. There's more to it but thats generally it. and a lot of those aspects will apply to why isn't there ______________________. 

As someone who sings. and was an athlete, the sigh that came out of me when the question was "Why isn't there Olympic Singing." would have done my singing instructor proud. It came straight from the diaphragm. it's not comparable. at all. singing is singing, and athletics. (including horseback riding etc), is athletic. All sports in the games. (yes including sailing) is of an athletic nature. Singing. is not. and if you want to start slicing what is talent vs not - EVERYTHING in the games is a talent. it's a talent that someone can notch their bow, and be that accurate. I can't do that. it's a talent that someone can be that dominating playing flipping badminton - I can't do that [well].  etc. but then it's applying the athleticism to the talent which makes it a sport. (this is just my opinion but that's how i see it]

 

and when you apply that sport is only something that has a stop watch, a tape measure and a scoreboard so only those sports should be in the Games, then we should just lock up shop and not even bother because there are judges in every sport. sometimes they are called referees, or umpires, but they impact the sport. just because one involves a panel of 6 and you get your result that way, or you have to run and hit a board and hope that two people in a chair judge your toe didn't go over, you're being judged. 

[Minneapple]

Ice dancing is basically ballroom dancing on ice.

I watched some of the rhythmic gymnastics team routines. They looked like the routines the danceline girls did in high school, except with the hoop and ribbon and whatnot. But, whatever. The routines were cool, one team did a Vogue number that was a lot of fun to watch.

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

and when you apply that sport is only something that has a stop watch, a tape measure and a scoreboard so only those sports should be in the Games, then we should just lock up shop and not even bother because there are judges in every sport. sometimes they are called referees, or umpires, but they impact the sport. just because one involves a panel of 6 and you get your result that way, or you have to run and hit a board and hope that two people in a chair judge your toe didn't go over, you're being judged. 

It's not that there's a *judge* per se. Yes, every sport has a judge, or umpire or referee. But the reason people question things like gymnastics and ballroom dancing as "sports" is because of the subjective nature of the judging. You can objectively judge whether someone was faster than someone else. But how do you judge artistry? You really can't, because everyone has their own preferences about what constitutes art. You will never ever convince me that Oksana Baiul really deserved that gold medal ahead of Nancy Kerrigan, but the Eastern European judges loved the trembly little ballet dancer who wore the poofy pink thing on her head. That's why they've instituted the Code of Points in gymnastics and figure skating, to take away much of that subjective judging. And, it's worked to some extent -- I love Aly Raisman, but she's the least artistic gymnast ever. And she's won a pile of medals thanks to the code.

[MaKaM]

Diving is judged and yet the announcer always had a pretty good idea of what kind of scores each dive was going to get. It wasn't some big mystery why one dive scored x and another scored y. Maybe people who watch synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics a whole lot (and dancesport) can watch a routine and figure out immediately what kind of score that will get, but I sure as hell couldn't. And I dislike anything that has an artistic impression or choreography component. I hate that in figure skating too, so it isn't just summer sports that incite my wrath. The addition of theatrical elements does not improve the overall impression--it looks like theater, not sport. I wish artistic gymnasts wore more sporty leotards (and shorts, god, shorts, I have seen too much of Aly Raisman's ass and know too much about Catalina Ponor's waxing routine) but at least their scores are not dependent on how much bling and eye makeup they have on. Can't say that about SS, RG, or I am guessing dancesport. Now if dancesport were completely replacing both rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming, I could get behind that. I like sports where men and women can compete together/against each other.

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, MaKaM said:

 I like sports where men and women can compete together/against each other.

that's all sport. 

 

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

It's not that there's a *judge* per se. Yes, every sport has a judge, or umpire or referee. But the reason people question things like gymnastics and ballroom dancing as "sports" is because of the subjective nature of the judging. You can objectively judge whether someone was faster than someone else. But how do you judge artistry? You really can't, because everyone has their own preferences about what constitutes art. You will never ever convince me that Oksana Baiul really deserved that gold medal ahead of Nancy Kerrigan, but the Eastern European judges loved the trembly little ballet dancer who wore the poofy pink thing on her head. That's why they've instituted the Code of Points in gymnastics and figure skating, to take away much of that subjective judging. And, it's worked to some extent -- I love Aly Raisman, but she's the least artistic gymnast ever. And she's won a pile of medals thanks to the code.

Right. but my point is - it's still subjective. You'd think in hockey offsides would be easily understood and easy to call. but it's not. same with goaltender interference. again. it's not. sometimes i've seen people get eliminated for faults in track and field but if you look at the video replay they were good but they can't appeal it. all judging is subjective. Sure, artistry can be subjective as well, but i don't think personally it should be eliminated in sports that call for it, nor should it be excluded because it has an subjective element to it. Because if you start on that, then you work on other sports where it's spotty, and then where do you stop?  There's always an element of human element and subjectiveness. 

[Minneapple]

9 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Right. but my point is - it's still subjective. You'd think in hockey offsides would be easily understood and easy to call. but it's not. same with goaltender interference. again. it's not. sometimes i've seen people get eliminated for faults in track and field but if you look at the video replay they were good but they can't appeal it. all judging is subjective. Sure, artistry can be subjective as well, but i don't think personally it should be eliminated in sports that call for it, nor should it be excluded because it has an subjective element to it. Because if you start on that, then you work on other sports where it's spotty, and then where do you stop?  There's always an element of human element and subjectiveness. 

Hockey offsides is a black and white rule. In football there is same issue, what is a catch, that referees are notoriously bad at judging. Offensive holding, pass interference. Regardless of how the officials call it, those kinds of rules are laid down in black and white. Being eliminated for a fault in track when the replay shows it's good is a sign of bad judging, not a subjective element within the judging.  There is no black and white rule about making a routine pretty or balletic or making it connect to the music, because that is entirely subjective.

I love both gymnastics and figure skating, so I don't think "artistic" sports should be eliminated from the Olympics entirely either. But I do get why people say they're not "sports."

[MaKaM]

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

that's all sport.

Incorrect. The only Olympic sport where men and women compete as equals is equestrian. Sailing, tennis, ice dancing, and figure skating pairs have mixed teams. Women boxers do not contend against male boxers, etc.

[Bill1978]

9 hours ago, MaKaM said:

but at least their scores are not dependent on how much bling and eye makeup they have on. Can't say that about SS, RG,

I remember reading somewhere during the Olympics that people in charge of Synchronised Swimming are encouraging the athletes to reduce the theatrical aspect to the makeup and not to be so gaudy, to be more subtle, so it can be viewed more seriously. And the same article discussed the hair pieces which are not marked but if they fall off in the routine they get penalised for.

I remember reading years ago, the walk to the pool by SS swimmers and their cray little choreography by the poolside is also not judged. The judging only starts fro mthe moment the first person hits the water. Which really begs the queston - why even do that crazy stuff on the pool side if you are not getting marked on it. I enjoy watching SS during an Olympiad, cause it is something different, but I cringe at the poolside antics.

I do think with the new split screen action for viewing SS on TV, people are starting to see that there is more to the sport than just sticking your legs out of the water and pulling a funny face. When I was watching the group routines, I got nervous whenever I saw someone going close to the floor of the pool as I knew that was a deduction.

I still think if they ditched Women's duet and replaced it with Mixed Duet, it might help the sport. After watching a variety of Mixed Duet from the World Championships it really reminded me of figure skating/ice dancing whereas I never get that watching Women Duets for some reason. I am glad though they got rid of Solo routines in the Olympics though. I know that they were synchronised to the music, but I think a lot of people (including me) thought it was ridiculous for 1 person to be doing synchronised anything.

[LadyArcadia]

On 8/23/2016 at 4:47 PM, blackwing said:

I wouldn't support ballroom dancing in the Olympics.  I'm sure it requires a lot of hard work and dedication, but I don't think of it as a sport.  I think of it as talent.  If you're going to allow ballroom dancing in the Olympics, then why isn't there Olympic singing?  That involves talent too.  If ballroom dancing, why not Olympic chess?  I can't do what those grandmasters do either.  Doesn't mean it should be in the Olympics.

Well, for one, singing and chess aren't considered athletic activities.

Athlete: 
a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise.

DanceSport meets the definition of both a sport and physical exercise.... sometimes, it's even a contact sport (shout out to my poor partner who always ends up getting bashed in the head) ;-)

ETA: and as far as the judging, yes, it's subjective just like figure skating, but there are specific skills required for each of the dance styles mentioned above.  International Latin is very different than American Smooth.  Legs, body shape, holds, syllabus, etc.  A viewer can obviously tell the difference between a waltz and a rumba.  But a judge (and a dancer), knows the difference between a straight leg and a bent leg and how well it was executed.

I can understand how someone would view it as simply a talent.  But this shit is hard and it takes far more than talent to win.

Edited August 25, 2016 by LadyArcadia

[shang yiet]

To be champion and win medals at any type of physical activity is hard, of course. I don't think that's the point. 

[LadyArcadia]

16 hours ago, shang yiet said:

To be champion and win medals at any type of physical activity is hard, of course. I don't think that's the point. 

No, the point is whether DanceSport is art or sport.  A casual viewer sees it as art; a competitor/adjudicator knows there is specific technique involved behind the makeup and bling.  We just don't have blades at the bottom of our shoes.