The White Princess - General Discussion

[Kata01]

Me too! This series being sold as a "love" story imploded with this episode. Unless they meant Richard Richard Richard & Cathy, My Love...Henry & Lizzie? Not so much. 

[Kata01]

I follow Emma Frost on SM and read her interviews, she has repeatedly (the word "repeatedly" bears repeating here ;)) stated implicitly that Henry does not cheat, that the viewer will never question his love for Lizzie. I wonder if she's watching the same show airing? Leaving the did he/didn't he so ambiguous, but implication leaning heavily on the DID and watching Lizzie's hurt/humiliation play out was difficult to watch. He didn't seem to care. Emma was right though, I'm not questioning Henry's love for Lizzie...I'm questioning if he even likes her. Needless to say, Henry will not be getting a glowing recommendation/vote from me as husband-of-the-year...king-of-the-year...or general all-around decent-human-being-award. Brutal episode. 

[BooBear]

1 minute ago, Kata01 said:

Leaving the did he/didn't he so ambiguous, but implication leaning heavily on the DID and watching Lizzie's hurt/humiliation play out was difficult to watch. He didn't seem to care. Emma was right though, I'm not questioning Henry's love for Lizzie...I'm questioning if he even likes her. Needless to say, Henry will not be getting a glowing recommendation/vote from me as husband-of-the-year...king-of-the-year...or general all-around decent-human-being-award. Brutal episode. 

Yes. He was deliberately cruel to her this episode even worse than the first episode. He had an evil twinge in his eye when he was getting dressed and she came in and asked if he understood what she was suffering. That clearly had to be some romance novel tripe because it makes no sense to attempt to woo the York factions by humiliating the queen a few days after she basically saved his arse by appealing to York sentiments for him.  Not to mention the real possibility that his York wife would change her loyalty with her "brother" right there at court with his wife. How easy would it have been for Elizabeth to change loyalty after what Henry showed her 7 years into her marriage?  

[Kata01]

2 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Yes. He was deliberately cruel to her this episode even worse than the first episode. He had an evil twinge in his eye when he was getting dressed and she came in and asked if he understood what she was suffering. That clearly had to be some romance novel tripe because it makes no sense to attempt to woo the York factions by humiliating the queen a few days after she basically saved his arse by appealing to York sentiments for him.  Not to mention the real possibility that his York wife would change her loyalty with her "brother" right there at court with his wife. How easy would it have been for Elizabeth to change loyalty after what Henry showed her 7 years into her marriage?  

This. Yes, yes, and yes. It was the cold, almost evil cruelty that made this unbearable for me to watch. Last week he was asking her how he could thank her. I guess we got our answer now. Wonk. Wonk.

Amazing how this Cathy Gordon waltzes in and one king woos her while the other adores her with every fiber of his being. And she's only a "York" by marriage! Fancy that (insert sarcasm here). 

[Kata01]

...I also want to add that unless there is some sort of mea culpa, mea maxima culpa from Henry in the finale; I will not be watching another Frost production in the future. It's a pet peeve of mine, but I do not support show runners who mislead/misdirect/lie in this manner. I hated the book and I watched the series based on Emma's insistence that she changed the Gordon storyline from the book- that Henry loved Lizzie and was a faithful husband as he was in life. If I am seething this morning, it is because I feel I have been royally (pardon the pun) misled. 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Kata01 said:

Emma's insistence that she changed the Gordon storyline from the book- that Henry loved Lizzie and was a faithful husband as he was in life. If I am seething this morning, it is because I feel I have been royally (pardon the pun) misled. 

This! They straight up lied to us about everything in the promos. Suggesting that Lizzie would be a strong woman thwarting Henry during his reign. But this Lizzie is a doormat. They even went so far as to mislead with the wrong dialog in the teasers. That is not "fun" that is misleading.  I didn't know the book storyline but this mini series imho was a disaster. I shouldn't have watched it.  It sort of dims my like for the characters from the White Queen.  And frankly the criticism that was early on, that we just keep replaying the same story, was in this episode as well. Henry is back to paranoid that he will lose his crown and lashing out and not trusting his York wife, when that just makes no sense 7 years and three children in and in light of last week.  We clearly have one plot and will rehash it again and again.  All the progress that was made with the Henry character was thrown out the window this week in favor of romance novel cliche's. 

Just kill the boy!  If the 7 year itch is a problem and you need a mistress have one but don't humiliate your greatest asset when she finally has an opportunity to topple you.  Moronic. 

[nodorothyparker]

I'm not in this for the love story so that's neither here nor there for me.   Aside from the book though I've never read anything that supported the supposed affair and as presented it doesn't even make sense in this portrayal of Henry as someone who never had love or support that wasn't somewhat self-serving until he unexpectedly found it in his marriage.  But that portrayal has been inconsistent from episode to episode anyway.  Do they love each other, trust each other, merely tolerate each other for the alliance?  What do we need them to be this week?

I'm mostly fascinated by how the showrunner took what was already a quasi-factual melodramatic telling of this story and ramped all the worst aspects of that melodrama up to 11 to the point that it feels like bad fan fiction.  I was half expecting this version of Margaret Beauford to murder Richard Richard Richard and Cathy's baby right there in the cradle, and as it was it felt like she was pushing Lizzie pretty hard in that direction.   Lizzie losing her shit over the supposed affair also felt like a very modern reaction.  One of the more interesting things to me about courts of the day was how mistresses or king's "favorites" were frequently installed among the queen's ladies with the queen expected not to notice or dignify it by acknowledge what was happening right under her nose.  Here, we've got Lizzie and Richard Richard Richard and seemingly half the court shrieking about it on front of the other half like they're on Jerry Springer.

In a series that's already painted the whole idea of the divine right of kings in a pretty bad light with the Richard Richard Richard mania and the endless war and bloodshed that it would have taken to achieve it, this episode also shows how it led to some really foolhardy and shitty decision making.  Even if you truly are Richard Richard Richard, you're getting your face kicked in, you're being humiliated and cuckolded at every turn, and your only child was given away to parts unknown.  If the queen is giving you a dramatic if ready made out, it might be time to consider cutting your losses and running for it unless you're just determined to get your head cut off.

[BooBear]

9 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

this episode also shows how it led to some really foolhardy and shitty decision making.  

My confusion was as to what Henry was thinking. If indeed, your hold on the crown is still so easy to knock off, if indeed, most of Europe prefers this pretender to you, and if you refuse to kill the boy because it will only make everyone like him more and hate you... why kick the hornet's nest?  Keep the humiliation going so that everyone can start gunning for you and tell tales of your cruelty? Just kill the boy and be done with it.  No one would expect or fault Henry for that. Last week in this fantasy world Elizabeth rallied men to her husband because of her Yorkist plea. So by rights she can rally troops in this world. So lets make her angry and doubting her safety in this marriage?  Cause that will help secure the crown.

Quote

One of the more interesting things to me about courts of the day was how mistresses or king's "favorites" were frequently installed among the queen's ladies with the queen expected not to notice or dignify it by acknowledge what was happening right under her nose.  Here, we've got Lizzie and Richard Richard Richard and seemingly half the court shrieking about it on front of the other half like they're on Jerry Springer.

It felt like he was trying to spread the rumor to humiliate her like Richard did when he claimed to be doing it with Lizzie (to humiliate Henry). That made me think he has been waiting for 7 years to get this sort of "revenge". 

[nodorothyparker]

Yeah, the show can't seem to make up it's mind how valuable Lizzie's claim as the true York princess is either.  They go whole episodes ignoring it then suddenly she can single handedly use it to rally the troops.  This week when lesser York claimant Maggie is clearly wavering, Henry doesn't seem the least concerned with keeping Lizzie with her stronger claim through which his sons' is based firmly on his side.

If Henry kills Richard Richard Richard without dragging all of this out, then Lizzie can't have a big conveniently timed reveal next week that Spain won't agree to any marriage alliance until he and Teddy in the Tower are both dead.  You know, since they made such a big point of showing that Henry missed that exchange in Spanish last week.  It feels very much like the show is going for that as well as building up to Henry's Shocking Discovery that this version of his mother is apparently also a serial killer.

It's like sloppy fan fiction at this point.

[Kata01]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's like sloppy fan fiction at this point.

Yup. Yup. Yup. Sloppy, inconsistent, and at times, just plain weird.

Plus, there has been some heavy "I love you" foreshadowing between Henry & Lizzie for a few episodes. Seven years of marriage, 3 children and a happy content marriage & these 2 crazy kids are unable to utter the magic words. The "dark" tight-lipped Tudors in contrast to those Burgundian Yorks where "I love you"s flow like milk and honey. Bizarre because I think it's coming in the finale. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Kata01

[absolutelyido]

12 hours ago, Kata01 said:

I follow Emma Frost on SM and read her interviews, she has repeatedly (the word "repeatedly" bears repeating here ;)) stated implicitly that Henry does not cheat, that the viewer will never question his love for Lizzie. I wonder if she's watching the same show airing? Leaving the did he/didn't he so ambiguous, but implication leaning heavily on the DID and watching Lizzie's hurt/humiliation play out was difficult to watch. He didn't seem to care. Emma was right though, I'm not questioning Henry's love for Lizzie...I'm questioning if he even likes her. Needless to say, Henry will not be getting a glowing recommendation/vote from me as husband-of-the-year...king-of-the-year...or general all-around decent-human-being-award. Brutal episode. 

I've watch and read a couple of interviews of Emma Frost in which she talks about how they had a really hard time finding the right actor to play Henry because even though Henry was pretty awful to Lizzie in the first couple of episodes, they still wanted the audience to like him, and root for them as a couple (which I did). She said that Jacob Collins-Levy brought a likeability to Henry that they needed. But then they go and make Henry so awful in his treatment of Lizzie that you can't possibly like him. Not only does it make me question whether he even likes Lizzie, it makes me certain that even after all their time together, and the loyalty she has shown, he has never, ever trusted her.

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

In a series that's already painted the whole idea of the divine right of kings in a pretty bad light with the Richard Richard Richard mania and the endless war and bloodshed that it would have taken to achieve it, this episode also shows how it led to some really foolhardy and shitty decision making.  Even if you truly are Richard Richard Richard, you're getting your face kicked in, you're being humiliated and cuckolded at every turn, and your only child was given away to parts unknown.  If the queen is giving you a dramatic if ready made out, it might be time to consider cutting your losses and running for it unless you're just determined to get your head cut off.

What I don't understand is Richard Richard Richard's assumption that he is the rightful king of England and that Henry should just step aside. I don't know much about the War of the Roses, but I do know that it was a war between two branches of a family over who would hold the crown of England and guess what, the York side lost so the Tudors took the crown. Even when Richard emerged from the fire, among the reasons he listed for being the rightful king is that he "survived battle". No dude, Henry's side was winning so you fled and hid in a monastery. The York side lost. Again. Get over it.

7 hours ago, Kata01 said:

Yup. Yup. Yup. Sloppy, inconsistent, and at times, just plain weird.

Plus, there has been some heavy "I love you" foreshadowing between Henry & Lizzie for a few episodes. Seven years of marriage, 3 children and a happy content marriage & these 2 crazy kids are unable to utter the magic words. The "dark" tight-lipped Tudors in contrast to those Burgundian Yorks where "I love you"s flow like milk and honey. Bizarre because I think it's coming in the finale. 

Well Lizzie did tell Henry that she loved him this episode..... oh no wait she told Henry that she had loved her uncle Richard. Great timing Lizzie, way to bring that up again as you're trying to convince your husband not to have an affair.

A couple of other things I don't understand:

-Why is Margaret so convinced that Henry wouldn't forgive her for killing the York princes that she even killed Jasper to keep that secret? At this point, I'm pretty sure that Henry would thank her for it. 

-Who am I supposed to be rooting for? Not Henry after his treatment of Lizzie. Not Richard Richard Richard who, as I said, I think just needs to get over the fact that the York side lost. Surely not Margaret. Maggie has been too sniveling from the beginning for me. Frankly, I didn't like Lizzie all that much this episode.

I'm really not sure how they will get to a satisfying ending after this. Are they really going to get to a 'happily ever after' ending for Lizzie & Henry after this episode? Or are they going to get to a 'miserably ever after' ending and we're supposed to dislike both of them so much we're satisfied with that?

Edited May 29, 2017 by absolutelyido

[Glade]

I'm sure Margaret of Burgundy had much more important things to do then risk her life/country by showing up ALONE to skulk about in a dank building in London; she certainly would have sent someone else to talk to Maggie and deliver one-liners about the Thames.  I think the whole history of Burgundy and Margaret of York's role in it is really fascinating and much more interesting then what was going on in England at the time, let alone PG's fanfiction.  I thought this was the finale, but sadly there's more!

[BooBear]

10 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

What I don't understand is Richard Richard Richard's assumption that he is the rightful king of England and that Henry should just step aside.

I am not sure I get that either because Henry won the crown by killing Richard. So how does the crown automatically seem to go to the next in the York line? I am not particularly understanding that.  

Obviously the ending can't be changed too much because of history but, I expect there will be a lot of scenes of Lizzie looking upset but not doing a blessed thing but helping out her abusive husband. Yup that is what I want to see!!!

[Haleth]

Richard was the son of Edward IV.  If he was for real he'd be the rightful heir of his father.  Blood trumps winning a battle.  Henry's claim was based on a distant (and illegitimate) ancestor.

[Kata01]

The possibility of whether The Boy could be Richard Richard Richard hasn't concerned me in the least. However, after this episode I am convinced he is a charlaton, a good one. I'm sure after living in Burgundy with his aunt, grandmother, and other Yorkist exiles (not to mention "My Richard" Woodville writing on the reg) for 7 years he would be up to date on all the necessary RRR (Richard Richard Richard) trivia, so much so as to embody the personage. Add the right resemblage to the mix and voilà, presto RRR. There's something missing though...

The show took things to over the top levels with this kid though. Is he really THAT good? That perfect? That amazing? That cool of a customer? It screamed more saint/martyr than kingly behavior. Real kings (and queens) are messy - just look at Henry & Lizzie in this episode for evidence of that. That is royalty, my friends. His behavior was so extreme to me that by the end of the episode, I gave Lizzie my blessing to chop his head off- that ain't your brother, Liz. 

[IndianPaintbrush]

Wow, the show really went off the rails in this episode. Total mess with no one left to root for. The ambiguity of whether Henry cuckolded Richard Richard Richard doesn't even matter, the fact that he lets Lizzie think it ruins the whole story.

At this point let's just get Harry on the throne so he can begin divorcing/murdering his wives and there's some consistency.

[Kata01]

1 hour ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

Wow, the show really went off the rails in this episode. Total mess with no one left to root for. The ambiguity of whether Henry cuckolded Richard Richard Richard doesn't even matter, the fact that he lets Lizzie think it ruins the whole story.

At this point let's just get Harry on the throne so he can begin divorcing/murdering his wives and there's some consistency.

I'm at a loss in understanding where all that unfeeling, cold cruelty toward Lizzie was coming from. She did nothing to warrant that treatment from Henry. It made her humiliation, jealousy, hurt, confusion all the more painful to watch. Horrendous writing. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

But that portrayal has been inconsistent from episode to episode anyway.  Do they love each other, trust each other, merely tolerate each other for the alliance?  What do we need them to be this week?

Agreed. I also agree that the show is sort of like sloppy fan fiction. We've just moved beyond and semblance of historical fact and into some kind of fantasy world. I don't know what to say about the whole Perkin Warbeck storyline, they are basically telling us he really was the genuine article and not an impostor I guess. He never got anywhere near this kind of support in real life. 

[Scarlett45]

I just finished the episode and realized we only had one more until the finale. That's it?!! I mean the story arch for this mini-series was poorly done. I gave it a chance but The White Queen was SO much better. I think 1. Because the actors were stronger, 2. You got several perspectives (the York brothers, The Neville Sisters, the Woodville women), here the only compelling portrayal I've seen is Margaret Pole- I wish they hadn't sent Cecily off screen, she would've brought a different view point. 

[nodorothyparker]

Gregory through the book maintains that Perkin Warbeck was Richard Richard Richard, but even there she doesn't have him going around loudly declaring it every other page in ways that any thinking man surely would have known would only antagonize the king holding his wife and child.  Even discounting that he might have been the real deal, that portrayal of a man who wisely did confess to being a pretender and bided his time makes more sense than this version.  But TV dramatics, I guess.  He did get some limited recognition and support from other European heads at the time but excepting someone like Margaret of Burgundy who clearly had a family ax to grind, they were also quick to cut their losses as their support didn't translate to any sort of victory that would destabilize the Tudors.  

Even had Richard Richard Richard been able to escape and regroup it would have been a huge uphill battle at that point as Henry had been on the throne with an established line of succession for something like 12 years.  Granted, Henry had been in exile for 14 years before he finally won the throne, but he also didn't have anyone holding his family hostage and really had nothing to lose coming in during a time when the country was already in upheaval over Richard III and the disappearances of the princes in the Tower.

[absnow54]

4 hours ago, BooBear said:

I am not sure I get that either because Henry won the crown by killing Richard. So how does the crown automatically seem to go to the next in the York line? I am not particularly understanding that.  

Henry's victory depended on many Yorkists defecting to his side because Richard III usurped the throne from Edward IV's heirs, and because they believed both of Edward's sons were dead. So in their eyes, when Richard Richard Richard showed up, Henry had won a stolen crown. That's why it was so critical for Henry to marry Elizabeth, and to marry all of her sisters to Tudors and lower born nobles, so that the threat of a Yorkist claim could never trump that of his children. One of Edward's not-dead sons was the worst thing that could happen to his dynasty.

I really disliked this episode, especially in contrast to last week's episode. Henry's treatment of Elizabeth was awful, and even worse, the scene of Cathy Gordon crying in bed was framed in a similar way to the first episode after Elizabeth was forced to sleep with Henry. I know Emma Frost has been claiming that nothing happened between Henry and Cathy, but the implications were enough to ruin the character, which is unfortunate, because Jacob Collins Levy has given a great performance and the chemistry between him and Jodie Cormer was really fantastic.

That said, I did find Elizabeth's arc in the last episode to be interesting. I mean there was a 180 where suddenly Richard Richard Richard and Cathy Gordon were supposed to be the sympathetic victims, even though we've been following Lizzie and Henry's journey the whole time, and, well, I don't care about Richard Richard Richard and Cathy Gordon because I don't know them, but I kind of liked Lizzie taking a villainous role. The scene where she was standing over her possible nephew, recognizing the threat he posed to her children, while Margaret played the devil on her shoulder was really well done. And I liked that ultimately, Elizabeth wasn't helping Richard escape out of familial loyalty, but because she's afraid that if he actually is her brother, that killing him will damn her sons due to that stupid curse.

On a last note, Richard Richard Richard has obviously been taking notes in the Danerys Stormborn playbook with his walking through fire entrance, which is funny since Dany's story seems to be loosely based on Henry VII rise.

[lucindabelle]

Cathy Gordon is nice looking. Beautiful? Not compared to Lizzie. I'm puzzled.

Richard as the son of the deceased king would have the stronger claim, and in the world of the story, he IS the real Richard.

But since we know it's not going to turnout it's kind of hard to watch. Agree with those who find this a disappointment. One thing perhaps that was in the favor of the White Queen was the history is less well known. Now we're getting into territory we DO know. We know Harry's gonna be king. So all of this feels kind of... flat. I agree with everyone who found the cuckolding or pretense at it just... weird.

[Haleth]

I don't know if it was the true intent of the writers but maybe the Cathy Gordon storyline was to foreshadow Henry VIII's womanizing?  Like father, like son?

[MrsE]

12 hours ago, Haleth said:

Richard was the son of Edward IV.  If he was for real he'd be the rightful heir of his father.  Blood trumps winning a battle.  Henry's claim was based on a distant (and illegitimate) ancestor.

The Swynford children were all legitimised by an act of Parliament of Richard II;  the insertion  by Henry IV to a later exemplification of the act of a clause barring the line from the succession was by Letter Patent and was not, without the ratification of Parliament, of sufficient authority to set aside the original act which contained no such prohibition.    That aside, Edward IV took the throne by conquest and if this person is his son then his claim is, by your standards, also invalid.  Add to that the fact that, unless Richard III was lying about the illegitimacy of EIV's children, then Warbeck, if actually Richard of Shrewsbury, is not the rightful heir at all, because if he was illegitimate in 1483 he's illegitimate now.  If not illegitimate then Richard III was in fact a usurper and Henry VII was doing nothing untoward in deposing him.

[Kata01]

Episode 7 was bizarro world from start to finish. Perkin lost the battle to Henry. He was Henry's prisoner, yet he struts around the palace like "Yeah, I lost. So what? I'm Richard Richard Richard, step aside and hand me my crown." 

One of the biggest fails of this series is the characters (typically Yorks) blaming Henry or Lizzie for reacting to their own fool actions. For example, Maggie blaming Lizzie for the child being taken from Perkin and Cathy. How on earth was that Lizzie's fault? Perkin brought his wife and child to English soil. Cathy left sanctuary and delivered the infant into Tudor hands herself. Both Cathy and Perkin continually and openly defied the King right to his face. Yet, it's all Lizzie's fault? 

ps- Also love the nice little added touch of the "distraught" Cathy, my love having nowhere else to plop her sad self other than the Queen's bed. lol - she wishes. I see you, Cathy ;) 

[absnow54]

Yes, Edward IV also conquered the throne, but they all conquered with some claim to back them up. During the War of the Roses, everyone's claim was based on their relation to Edward III, because after Richard II's death, the line of succession started to get muddled. Henry IV, V, and VI were the direct male line of John of Gaunt who was Edward III's third son. Henry VII would claim through John of Gaunt as well, but through the legitimized Swynford line (which may or may not have had a clause barring them from succession, until Henry was basically the only Lancaster male left) on his mother's side. Edward IV's claim was through a tangled mess of all of Edward III's sons. He had a direct male line through Edward3's fourth son, a female line through Edward3's second son, and another female line through John of Gaunt/Swynford. When people became unhappy with Henry VI, it was argued that Edward IV's father had a better claim to the throne, and when he died, Edward IV was next in line. So, yes, these men could conquer the English throne through battle, but they needed support to do so, and they won that support through their divine right. Henry VII legitimized Richard of York when he legitimized Elizabeth York, and I agree, taking the crown from the usurper Richard III was one thing, but when the rightful heir of a popular king comes back from the dead (maybe) loyalties shift.

[nodorothyparker]

33 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

One of the biggest fails of this series is the characters (typically Yorks) blaming Henry or Lizzie for reacting to their own fool actions. For example, Maggie blaming Lizzie for the child being taken from Perkin and Cathy. How on earth was that Lizzie's fault? Perkin brought his wife and child to English soil. Cathy left sanctuary and delivered the infant into Tudor hands herself. Both Cathy and Perkin continually and openly defied the King right to his face. Yet, it's all Lizzie's fault? 

How many years has it been at this point?  Lizzie doesn't even have the power to get her brother out of the tower.  Yet Maggie keeps expecting her to do something and then blaming her when she can't.  I get what a shitty position Margaret was in with her brother locked up and still having to play the dutifully loyal in-law at every turn, but this hand wringing portrayal is starting to work my last nerve too.

The entirety of the War of the Roses was plagued by unclear or disputed succession lines, which is what Henry was trying to avoid in marrying Lizzie and getting an heir by her so quickly to establish a stable dynasty.  

Henry himself established the precedent for his handling of Richard Richard Richard by earlier sparing Lambert Simnel.  But Simnel was both a child and a clear imposter being used by more powerful opponents.  There was little danger of anyone trying to rally in the future around a kid they knew was a fake who was happy to work in the palace kitchens.  I know the stated reason for keeping Perkin Warbeck at court was to show the world that Henry had him and that he presented no threat, but in this telling all it does it embolden him to keep insisting to everyone who will listen that he's the rightful king and demanding the crown every 5 minutes whereas historically he was allowed at court only after he had publicly admitted to being a pretender.  At that point there's no reason to entertain it any further and not lock him up next to Teddy in the Tower instead of putting up with one scene after another and then getting snitty about it.

[Kata01]

58 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

How many years has it been at this point?  Lizzie doesn't even have the power to get her brother out of the tower.  Yet Maggie keeps expecting her to do something and then blaming her when she can't.  I get what a shitty position Margaret was in with her brother locked up and still having to play the dutifully loyal in-law at every turn, but this hand wringing portrayal is starting to work my last nerve too.

Maggie has been grating on me as well, none so much as this past episode. I find Lizzie's coldness to her more than justified. What absolute chutzpah to speak to the royal children in the manner she did regarding Perkin. And I literally laughed out loud at the irony of Maggie's comment (of Lizzie), "Your mother would be ashamed of you." Would she now? Because surely both of your own parents are dancing in delight with your defense of their arch nemesis, Elizabeth Woodville, not to mention the way in which she tended to her (when everyone else cut her off). Maggie should be the last one invoking the dead parents card. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Kata01

[nodorothyparker]

Lizzie has been cold, but under the circumstances can you really blame her?  I laughed at that line too.  Would the Elizabeth Woodville who would be so ashamed be the same one who expected Lizzie to chuck her own children's claims for Richard Richard Richard that at best would have left them open to being younger versions of Teddy in the Tower?  The same one that pushed Lizzie into that marriage in the first place and then spent the entirety of the marriage spinning various plots against her husband?  She's dead.  What exactly does Lizzie owe her at that point?

If she wants to believe Perkin Warbeck is the real deal, that's Maggie's right I guess but it makes no sense given how completely done she was with everything Plantagenet, along with all the accompanying death and ruin, by the time of her marriage.   All his efforts to win the throne have so far failed and he and his family are in a fairly precarious position.   Surely she has to know that nothing good can come out of talking to Lizzie and Henry's sons as if it may be true.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Maggie has been grating on me as well, none so much as this past episode.

I'm tired of looking at Maggie's hang-dog face all the time. She always looks as if she's just on the verge of bursting into tears.

[Haleth]

Maggie has been driving me crazy since Teddy was tossed in the tower.  So it surprised me to read in Alison Weir's book that

Spoiler

she and her husband were entrusted with being guardians for Arthur as he was raised in Wales.  (He was rarely at court.  As Prince of Wales he had his own territory to oversee and he lived with the Poles from toddlerhood.)  Maggie (who was only 16 when married to Pole) seems to have been content to live far from court and stay out of political squabbles... for the time being.

[rove4]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 9:01 PM, absolutelyido said:

What I don't understand is Richard Richard Richard's assumption that he is the rightful king of England and that Henry should just step aside. I don't know much about the War of the Roses, but I do know that it was a war between two branches of a family over who would hold the crown of England and guess what, the York side lost so the Tudors took the crown. Even when Richard emerged from the fire, among the reasons he listed for being the rightful king is that he "survived battle". No dude, Henry's side was winning so you fled and hid in a monastery. The York side lost. Again. Get over it.

This. And Richard/Warbeck already backed down from the one battle (to go to his pregnant wife) and now he fled from the second.  If I were on the fence about supporting him or not this would sway me heavily towards the "cut bait and run" side.

Though it's not like they're making Henry seem all that competent either. He's being portrayed as paranoid and unhinged sometimes...and in front of other people.  He's coming across as weak.

Oh well, only one more episode so I suppose I'll hang in there and see it through but the show hasn't been the same since the seven year time jump.

[iMonrey]

Did I miss something? Why is everyone calling him "Richard Richard Richard?" He's not Richard III; he would be Richard IV if he were really Richard.

[CindyBee]

1 hour ago, rove4 said:

Oh well, only one more episode so I suppose I'll hang in there and see it through but the show hasn't been the same since the seven year time jump.

Yeah I totally agree as the last good scene for me was Maggie's wedding interspersed with the Battle of Stoke.    Thought that was really well done and I haven't really enjoyed much about the show since.

[Kata01]

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Did I miss something? Why is everyone calling him "Richard Richard Richard?" He's not Richard III; he would be Richard IV if he were really Richard.

That was me ;) lol I commented the scenes with Lizzie & her mother were like Jan Brady (Marcia Marcia Marcia) from the Brady Bunch moments: Richard Richard Richard!  

[nodorothyparker]

That.  We all liked it enough that we ran with it.  It helps to avoid confusion with Car Park Richard, which is also hilarious.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Kata01 said:

That was me ;) lol I commented the scenes with Lizzie & her mother were like Jan Brady (Marcia Marcia Marcia) from the Brady Bunch moments: Richard Richard Richard!  

I also thought of it with regard to Elizabeth Woodville having fever dreams of "Richard.... Richard... Richard...." Richard is coming... while Lizzy is sitting right there.  Glad to see everyone else thought the episode was a jump the shark kind of thing. I am probably going to drop Starz this week because I can't stand to watch the 500 times the episode replays / or there is the *STUNNING CONCULUSION*** promo playing for the finale. 

[Kata01]

13 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

That.  We all liked it enough that we ran with it.  It helps to avoid confusion with Car Park Richard, which is also hilarious.

Car Park Richard is pure gold.

[meep.meep]

You guys are much too picky.  The scene where the King's crown falls off and the only one who can pick it up is Richard Richard Richard was really powerful stuff and brilliantly acted!  

Just think, in a week or two, you won't be able to get your weekly fix of Michelle Fairley skulking around in her Melficent hat, or watch Jodie Comer's breastesses heave up and down, or wonder if the guy playing Margaret Pole's husband really has his hand stuck in that thing on his chest, or if it's under his coat.  Then you'll be sorry.

[MrsE]

You're right of course;  and I suppose they'll stop before HVII has an actual nervous breakdown and murders his mother with an axe before being locked in the Tower in an iron mask while Lizzie takes over and rules with the dignity, grace and sheer star quality with which every last York was endowed.

It didn't happen?  So?

[nodorothyparker]

You've seen the script for next week, haven't you?  Sadly with this production, that's not an entirely implausible ending.

[Kata01]

I would love to see a Dynasty-esque fountain catfight, only with mud and Lizzie taking on her mother-in-law/Maggie/Cathy in like a Quadruple Death Match. What? With this writing team, it could happen...

[nodorothyparker]

Okay, since we're going there, I'll admit that if this series ends with Lizzie getting into a proper knockdown drag out catfight with Margaret Beauford and ripping that Maleficent headdress off of her and yelling at her to stop creeping around doors while her son is having sex, I'll declare it a success and one of the bestest history adaptions I've ever seen.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I suppose they'll stop before HVII has an actual nervous breakdown and murders his mother with an axe before being locked in the Tower in an iron mask while Lizzie takes over and rules with the dignity, grace and sheer star quality with which every last York was endowed.

It didn't happen?  So?

Yeah - if they're just going to make up stuff about historical characters they might have at least added a dragon or two. 

I simply do not understand why this story couldn't have been about how Henry and Lizzie's relationship started, developed, and grew. It's really the only compelling part of actual history and it's been glossed over in favor of fictional elements and manufactured drama. Maybe it might have been a little too Outlander for some people but it would have felt more genuine than all this nonsense that never even happened.

[Kata01]

21 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Okay, since we're going there, I'll admit that if this series ends with Lizzie getting into a proper knockdown drag out catfight with Margaret Beauford and ripping that Maleficent headdress off of her and yelling at her to stop creeping around doors while her son is having sex, I'll declare it a success and one of the bestest history adaptions I've ever seen.

Spoiler

I think the honor of that is going to Henry. Did you see the preview for the finale? In a snippet, he's shown dragging her out of a room and throwing her to the ground. 

I mean, why not? He did beat the lights out of his rival last week with his crown. 

[nodorothyparker]

Now I want dragons, dammit.

Yeah, the preview had me rolling.

[MrsE]

This was always going to be seriously flawed.  If they stuck to Gregory's version Henry would be totally unsympathetic, Elizabeth a pallid nonentity and no one would either care or believe that she at any point entertained any tender feelings for him unless she was an even greater idiot than she at first appears and that's going some.

In trying, at least to an extent, to make Henry more appealing, they removed any sting from the tail and had instead to resort to making Margaret Beaufort into a pantomime villain (boo, hiss) who murders grown men;  then there's "the boy" (He's behind you!) and the the farrago of supposition, wish fulfilment and risible pro York bias that his story represents.  The truth is that bugger all happens in the book, and what does is the product of Gregory's Tudor loathing imagination.  She offered them very meagre fabric with which to work, so they threw out the polycotton and replaced it with Lurex.

[absolutelyido]

On 5/30/2017 at 9:02 AM, nodorothyparker said:

  I know the stated reason for keeping Perkin Warbeck at court was to show the world that Henry had him and that he presented no threat, but in this telling all it does it embolden him to keep insisting to everyone who will listen that he's the rightful king and demanding the crown every 5 minutes whereas historically he was allowed at court only after he had publicly admitted to being a pretender.  At that point there's no reason to entertain it any further and not lock him up next to Teddy in the Tower instead of putting up with one scene after another and then getting snitty about it.

I really hope Henry quickly locks Perkin/Richard in the tower and throws away the key in the next episode, but only after He grows a pair and publicly puts Perkin in his place. For somebody who left his troops in the field to continue to fight after he high-tailed it to safety, Perkin sure is full of himself. Even Lizzie said that Perkin couldn't be a York because no York man would flee from a fight. Henry needs to tell Perkin to take several seats and that any true king, whether York or Tudor, would defend his crown to the death. Even though Richard III usurped the crown from his nephews, at least he had the guts to fight to his death trying to keep it. 

On 5/30/2017 at 6:50 PM, meep.meep said:

You guys are much too picky.  The scene where the King's crown falls off and the only one who can pick it up is Richard Richard Richard was really powerful stuff and brilliantly acted!  

That hunting scene was so bad on so many levels it made me cringe. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by absolutelyido

[Moxie Cat]

On May 28, 2017 at 11:44 AM, BooBear said:

They straight up lied to us about everything in the promos. Suggesting that Lizzie would be a strong woman thwarting Henry during his reign. But this Lizzie is a doormat. 

I keep remembering the line from the promo, which you heard over shots of Comer, "don't be fooled by her, she's quite the politician." And IIRC, the line turned out to be about the Duchess of Burgundy. I thought Lizzie would grow over the series to learn how to play Henry. All she had to do was convince him she loved him, since he was so desperate for a genuine partner, but she could never say it. And I thought she would learn how to push Margaret Beaufort's influence down as a result, but that never happened either.

On the other hand, Lizzie's situation at this point sucks. I know little of this history, only that my poster of the British monarchy's family tree has a question mark next to Richard's death date. The show is pushing very strongly that this guy was really Richard. Even if Lizzie is 100% convinced of that, what is she supposed to do? She risks her kids' lives, especially the boys, if she succeeds in helping Richard and overthrowing Henry.

So Maggie wins this series in my mind. Hope to see the actress in the future.

[meep.meep]

23 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Now I want dragons, dammit.

Yeah, the preview had me rolling.

How about a nice little red cow?