Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am guessing that someone (maybe the director) told Harington what his motivation was going to be so that he knew how to play that scene.

That would just mean that the director didn't know either, judging from what the writers said.

Sansa can issue orders.  My point is that it's improbable that Jon would not have heard that Sansa had ordered their most high-value prisoner moved into the dog kennels.  The scene cuts away after Sansa demands to know where he is, but one is meant to assume that there was more conversation after that.  Between the writers' comments and the lack of any followup with Jon, the implication is that he was fine with it.

[Edith]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That would just mean that the director didn't know either, judging from what the writers said.

Sansa can issue orders.  My point is that it's improbable that Jon would not have heard that Sansa had ordered their most high-value prisoner moved into the dog kennels.  The scene cuts away after Sansa demands to know where he is, but one is meant to assume that there was more conversation after that.  Between the writers' comments and the lack of any followup with Jon, the implication is that he was fine with it.

Also Sansa wasn't there when Ramsay mentioned that he had not fed the dogs. Either there's a mistake (which is also a possibility) or someone told her and they were only Jon, Davos, Tormund and Lyanna present. 

[anamika]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

That would just mean that the director didn't know either, judging from what the writers said.

Or maybe the actor and director came up with a motivation based on what they know about the character.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa can issue orders.  My point is that it's improbable that Jon would not have heard that Sansa had ordered their most high-value prisoner moved into the dog kennels.  The scene cuts away after Sansa demands to know where he is, but one is meant to assume that there was more conversation after that.  Between the writers' comments and the lack of any followup with Jon, the implication is that he was fine with it.

Why would it be improbable? I mean WF was big enough for Sansa to move all over the place and go light candles without anyone knowing when the Boltons were in charge. The writer's comments don't tell me anything other than that Jon left Ramsay's fate in Sansa's hands. Why would Jon be constantly monitoring Ramsay considering he has handed over the prisoner to Sansa to do with what she wants? Why is it impossible that Sansa then takes a trip down to the kennels at night, orders the men to move Ramsay in there and sics the dogs on him?

Sure Jon would have heard about how Sansa dealt with Ramsay pretty soon. But Jon is also all 'no worries, we are cool' about the fact that Sansa deliberately withheld from him information that could have saved hundreds of lives. After that nonsense what's the point in a follow up and getting Jon's reaction to how Sansa dealt with Ramsay?  He would probably have to shrug that aside as well. So no, I would not take the lack of a Jon reaction as any kind of implication that Jon was in on the plan to feed Ramsay to the dogs.

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika

[FemmyV]

Very few people could watch that episode, and the aftermath, and come away with the idea that Jon was not okay with the means of Ramsey's death. Especially after viewing the 'about the show' segment.

As for LF/Sansa/Arya, talking show - don't forget that Arya saw LF pop his head into Harrenhall with info for Tywin. She's going to be suspicious about him and his presence at WF. I also agree, that - again, talking show - Sansa is more likely to try to get Arya to do the deed for her, if stabbing or some other direct method is involved.

[Brn2bwild]

One thing I wonder about is what disputes over ruling Sansa and Arya could have.  We've already seen spoilers showing Sansa has an uncompromising view when it comes to bannermen -- reward those loyal to the Starks with land, to hell with those who didn't.  If Arya is supposed to be even more uncompromising, how could she possibly top that?  Demand to chop off the heads of every disloyal bannerman?

[anamika]

 If it was up to Jon to kill Ramsay, does anyone think that he would have done it by using the dogs?

If the answer to that question is no, then it should be obvious that he had no role in what happened to Ramsay. As the writers have mentioned, he left that up to Sansa. Sansa decided the manner of death and then went to the kennels and delivered it. According to the writers, Jon has decided that it is upto his sister to finish off Ramsay as she pleases. To extrapolate from this that Jon and Sansa colluded together on the manner of Ramsay's death has no basis or evidence on the show.  Sansa had the means to carry out her punishment by herself and she did so.

The question of whether Jon is okay with this or disapproves of this is not explored on the show. From what I have seen of Jon Snow, thus far, I don't see him as a character who feeds bad people to the dogs. No matter how horrible that person is. Which is why I stated that I don't think Jon Snow would have condoned the act. But he understands that it's his sister's right to deliver death to Ramsay - in whatever manner she chooses.

8 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

One thing I wonder about is what disputes over ruling Sansa and Arya could have.  We've already seen spoilers showing Sansa has an uncompromising view when it comes to bannermen -- reward those loyal to the Starks with land, to hell with those who didn't.  If Arya is supposed to be even more uncompromising, how could she possibly top that?  Demand to chop off the heads of every disloyal bannerman?

I don't think that the spoilers say that Arya is uncompromising - rather that her 'rigid morality' clashes with Sansa's 'pragmatism'. Maybe not wanting to punish the children for the sins of the father aligns with Arya's morality.

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika

[roguetamlin]

I thought the unspoken agreement between Jon and Sansa about getting rid of Ramsay was part of the brutalization that has been so large a part of the stories of Jon, Sansa and Arya. 

Not sure if these are spoilers, but they are full of potential speculation fodder. 

[Minneapple]

If Jon has an issue with the manner in which Sansa chose to kill her rapist and torturer then Jon can fuck right off. Or maybe Sansa can share with him the details of what it's like to be raped by Ramsay.

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

 If it was up to Jon to kill Ramsay, does anyone think that he would have done it by using the dogs?

If the answer to that question is no, then it should be obvious that he had no role in what happened to Ramsay.

I don't think Jon would have personally chosen that method, but it doesn't follow from that that he was ignorant of what Sansa decided to do.  Once he said it was up to her, it was her choice.  If the story point was that Jon was not aware of it, and thus by extension opposed, there would have been some indication of this in the aftermath.

The latest from WOTW on the ambush filming.  It's noted in the comments that, per L7R, the Unsullied will be part of the ambush sequence after all, which is actually now an instance where the leaker's information was better than WOTW and L7R's initial reports.

[WearyTraveler]

RE: Jon and Sansa's choice of death delivery method for Ramsay.

I don't think it matters when Jon knew what Sansa had planned.  In Jon's head, once he determines that it is up to Sansa to make a decision as to the matter of death, he has no business interfering.  Even if he disagreed with the delivery method.

So, if he knew beforehand that Ramsay was moved to the kennels and he suspected that Sansa was planning to feed him to the dogs (or actually knew for sure that she would), and he found that punishment disgusting/disagreeable/repugnant/[enter your favourite pejorative adjective here] he wouldn't move a finger.  He has Ned's sense of honor, after all.  He said Ramsay's fate was in her hands; so, he would never go back on that decision.

If he knew after the fact, and he disapproved, he would never say anything about it because, as stated above, he wouldn't take his words back.

IMO, Jon probably didn't like the choice Sansa made.  He'd probably find the method "dishonorable", as would Ned.  But he'd never say it because he agreed, before Ramsay's death, that it was Sansa's decision.

[GrailKing]

As far as Jon, Sansa and Ramsey, if Jon saw the victims of Ramsey he just shrug and think he deserved to die like he acted, Jon may have hung him but he left that up to the Lady of Winterfell she will be dealing with this for awhile, and if she becomes QITN I think in the future if enough survive then once again a maid could walk from the wall to the neck unmolested.

As for the kennel scene, we have choices, Sansa never went in the kennels she stayed outside and talked to Ramsey through the gate so either Sansa or Jon authorized that; or Ramsey being cocky as hell open those gates himself thinking he win.

Or maybe the Maester did it, either way Ramsey got what he deserved.

WRG to Sansa and Arya, Sansa is basing her actions on what she went through for 6 years, I think Arya is basing hers on love of Jon and her father though in the show when Tywin asked what killed her father she states loyalty, Sansa saw what honor and loyalty got her father and almost Jon, I'm sure Pycelles words ring in her ears: treason is a noxious weed.

Jon is basing his decisions on his life under Cat, being blamed for nothing more then being born, on the NW blaming Wildlings on being on the wrong side of the wall.

Sansa does actually have some examples of people who haven't fit her mold of hero to reference with, it's will she recognized them. 

All the Starks have valid issues with how they are thinking and choosing their actions, none are totally right and none are totally wrong and since they don't have a Dr. Phil around they will grapple with choices and decisions for a while unless Bran is said doctor.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Happy to let the discussion wander off track to a degree, but can we bring the main focus back to Season 7 spec and spoilers now please.

If anyone wants to continue the Jon/Sansa/Ramsay discussion please take it to one of the character threads or another appropriate topic.

Thank you.

[Edith]

http://watchersonthewall.com/lannisters-mobilize-malpartida-footage-key-game-thrones-sequence/#more-81227

Jaime with Widow's Wail! I wonder if this is the reason why Sansa sends Brienne south. Maybe Bran tells her about what happened to Ice? The leaker said something about Brienne saying that Jaime is an honorable man so I wonder if this is it.

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, Edith said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/lannisters-mobilize-malpartida-footage-key-game-thrones-sequence/#more-81227

Jaime with Widow's Wail! I wonder if this is the reason why Sansa sends Brienne south. Maybe Bran tells her about what happened to Ice? The leaker said something about Brienne saying that Jaime is an honorable man so I wonder if this is it.

I guess if Jaime is heading North at the end of the season to fight WW, he needs that sword. Does Jaime suck at fighting now that he has only one hand? I could not really tell from his fighting the sand snakes.

Edited November 22, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/lannisters-mobilize-malpartida-footage-key-game-thrones-sequence/#more-81227

Jaime with Widow's Wail! I wonder if this is the reason why Sansa sends Brienne south. Maybe Bran tells her about what happened to Ice? The leaker said something about Brienne saying that Jaime is an honorable man so I wonder if this is it.

I thought the leaker said something about Sansa sending Brienne south because she wants to make sure the North's interests are represented and I guess she doesn't trust Jon to do an adequate job of representing those interests.

59 minutes ago, anamika said:

I guess if Jaime is heading North at the end of the season to fight WW, he needs that sword. 

Yes. If Sam goes north as the leaker claims he does, I imagine he'll be bringing Heartsbane with him.

It also sounds as if Arya might be keeping Littlefinger's Valyrian steel dagger, so she might have a Valyrian steel weapon as well.

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 If Sam goes north as the leaker claims he does, I imagine he'll be bringing Heartsbane with him.

So who's going to get Heartsbane? Likely candidates who can fight include Tormund, Sandor, Jorah, Grey Worm, Euron, Gendry (will probably use a warhammer)...I can't think of anyone else. It's too bad that Dickon gets roasted. Tom Hopper looks good with a sword. Davos possible, Tyrion maybe - I think he used a sword during the battle of the blackwater.

Since all the swords are getting passed around between the different families, maybe Jorah should get it.

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I thought the leaker said something about Sansa sending Brienne south because she wants to make sure the North's interests are represented and I guess she doesn't trust Jon to do an adequate job of representing those interests.

Was that actually in the spoilers or was that just people speculating?  I tried to find a post that still had all the original text in it, but couldn't come up with anything.

If true, it doesn't make a ton of sense (how exactly is a random lady knight going to make a difference when the king is there?), but this is presumably just a fig leaf so that Brienne can meet Jaime again anyway.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I thought the leaker said something about Sansa sending Brienne south because she wants to make sure the North's interests are represented and I guess she doesn't trust Jon to do an adequate job of representing those interests.

I think it's a rumor. But if it's true, it shows how little she understands the threat of the WW and that this thing is bigger than all of them. 

I'd be interested to see if at the end of all of this, if they won't wanna put Ice back together. I always thought that one of the cruelest things GRRM ever did was what melting Ice and leaving part of it with Joffrey. I hope they reforge that sword after all is said and done and it's returned to Winterfell. Yes, these are my priorities. 

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

Tom Hopper looks good with a sword.

Yes, yes he does! And I am now sad that Dickon is going to die. I know, Putting aside how good looking Tom Hopper is, he and Freddie Stroma could not look more different. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, anamika said:

So who's going to get Heartsbane? Likely candidates who can fight include Tormund, Sandor, Jorah, Grey Worm, Euron, Gendry (will probably use a warhammer)...I can't think of anyone else. It's too bad that Dickon gets roasted. Tom Hopper looks good with a sword. Davos possible, Tyrion maybe - I think he used a sword during the battle of the blackwater.

Since all the swords are getting passed around between the different families, maybe Jorah should get it.

According to the leaks, when Euron witnesses the wight demo he's all "Nope, not dealing with this" and goes back to the Iron Islands.

My money's on Sandor or Jorah, since Jorah refuses Longclaw when Jon offers to return it to him.

Tyrion's weapon of choice is an axe (he used an axe at Blackwater), but he's never been much of a fighter and I doubt he'll be playing much of a combat role against the WW. It looks like the anti-WW combatant lineup will be made up of the surviving members of the Eastwatch/wight hunt team--Davos, Gendry, Jorah, Sandor, Beric, Tormund and Jon--with Brienne, Jaime, Bronn and Pod thrown in (with Arya possibly playing some role now that she has a Valyrian steel weapon).

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Was that actually in the spoilers or was that just people speculating?  I tried to find a post that still had all the original text in it, but couldn't come up with anything.

If true, it doesn't make a ton of sense (how exactly is a random lady knight going to make a difference when the king is there?), but this is presumably just a fig leaf so that Brienne can meet Jaime again anyway.

I seem to recall it was a response from Awayforthelads when asked about Brienne going south. Of course, Awayforthelads initially said that Brienne stayed north all season and only "remembered" about Brienne going to the dragonpit later on when confronted with WOTW spoilers about Brienne being at the dragonpit, so the reliability of Awayforthelads' explanation of why Brienne and Pod go south is shaky at best. The only reason I mention it at all is that Awayforthelads has been right about pretty much everything.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So who's going to get Heartsbane? Likely candidates who can fight include Tormund, Sandor, Jorah, Grey Worm, Euron, Gendry (will probably use a warhammer)...I can't think of anyone else. It's too bad that Dickon gets roasted. Tom Hopper looks good with a sword. Davos possible, Tyrion maybe - I think he used a sword during the battle of the blackwater.

Since all the swords are getting passed around between the different families, maybe Jorah should get it.

My guess Clegane or Jorah, I be happy with either but maybe edged to Sandor as he has protected both Sansa and Arya.

[Edith]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I thought the leaker said something about Sansa sending Brienne south because she wants to make sure the North's interests are represented and I guess she doesn't trust Jon to do an adequate job of representing those interests.

Yes. If Sam goes north as the leaker claims he does, I imagine he'll be bringing Heartsbane with him.

It also sounds as if Arya might be keeping Littlefinger's Valyrian steel dagger, so she might have a Valyrian steel weapon as well.

Yes, he said that but he also mentioned something about Brienne saying that Jaime is a honorable men. 

[SeanC]

Looks like filming in Belfast is revving up again -- Kit and Sophie have been spotted there in the last day or so.  In Sophie's case, this is the first time she's been in town since either late September or early October.  I suppose she could be filming with Kit, but we'll see who else from the Northern cast is sighted in the next little bit (if Maisie's in town, I'm sure the girls will be all over social media shortly).

Edited November 22, 2016 by SeanC

[Happy Harpy]

On 21/11/2016 at 8:56 AM, Brn2bwild said:

One thing I wonder about is what disputes over ruling Sansa and Arya could have.  We've already seen spoilers showing Sansa has an uncompromising view when it comes to bannermen -- reward those loyal to the Starks with land, to hell with those who didn't.  If Arya is supposed to be even more uncompromising, how could she possibly top that?  Demand to chop off the heads of every disloyal bannerman?

I agree with @anamika. Arya is the epitome of ruthlessness with her enemies and people she considers as evil, but not with those she sees as innocent; at least she wasn't so far. If she truly spares Frey women and children, I can see her taking the stance of sparing the heirs whose parents chose the wrong side. I understand Sansa's anger and need for vengeance, but I'm a bit disappointed that she forgot so fast what it is to be blamed for the sins of the father...and the brother, if I remember correctly a certain scene in the Throne room back in S2. 

Also, the bannermen might see the two sisters differently. Maybe the reminder of "Lady Lannister/Lady Bolton" during S6 was a foreshadowing of the general opinion about Sansa, and how her political, or rather "politician" mindset from the South might not find an echo in the North. Maybe there's some defiance that will grow if she goes roundabout, or relies on Littlefinger too much -just because he is a foreigner since no one or almost ever doubts LF on this show. Arya, OTOH, might be trusted because she avenged the Red Wedding (I wonder if "Ned Stark's little girl" will be mentioned here? It could frustrate Sansa and allow the conflict to escalate). She might get along better with the Northern lords; IIRC she's described as a Northerner through and through? And when Arya is on someone's side she isn't half on someone's side.

The idea of Jaime and Brienne carrying each an half of Ned's sword is making my shipping heart flutter and hope for both of them to meet alive in the North in S8, and give them to Gendry so he can reforge Ice.

Now that I know I'll get a Davos/Gendry reunion in S7 (yay!) and probably won't get an Arya/Gendry reunion yet, I also want to see a "You're Arya's brother/You know Arya?" scene between Jon and Gendry. With mentions of Needle and Yoren. If they have time for a Greyworm/Missandei love scene (not a naysayer, love them, didn't consider their scenes a waste of time) they certainly have time for Rhaegar's son and Robert's son bonding, right? Right?

[GrailKing]

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Looks like filming in Belfast is revving up again -- Kit, Sophie and Emilia have all been spotted there in the last day or so.  In Sophie's case, this is the first time she's been in town since either late September or early October.  I suppose she could be filming with Kit, but we'll see who else from the Northern cast is sighted in the next little bit (if Maisie's in town, I'm sure the girls will be all over social media shortly).

This was on WIC the other day:http://winteriscoming.net/2016/11/19/celeb-roundup-faye-marsay-the-waif-joins-bbc-drama-sophie-turner-grants-a-wish-maisie-williams-at-fantastic-beasts-premeire-shell/

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

This was on WIC the other day:

What about it?

[whateverdgaf]

16 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree with @anamika. Arya is the epitome of ruthlessness with her enemies and people she considers as evil, but not with those she sees as innocent; at least she wasn't so far. If she truly spares Frey women and children, I can see her taking the stance of sparing the heirs whose parents chose the wrong side. I understand Sansa's anger and need for vengeance, but I'm a bit disappointed that she forgot so fast what it is to be blamed for the sins of the father...and the brother, if I remember correctly a certain scene in the Throne room back in S2. 

Also, the bannermen might see the two sisters differently. Maybe the reminder of "Lady Lannister/Lady Bolton" during S6 was a foreshadowing of the general opinion about Sansa, and how her political, or rather "politician" mindset from the South might not find an echo in the North. Maybe there's some defiance that will grow if she goes roundabout, or relies on Littlefinger too much -just because he is a foreigner since no one or almost ever doubts LF on this show. Arya, OTOH, might be trusted because she avenged the Red Wedding (I wonder if "Ned Stark's little girl" will be mentioned here? It could frustrate Sansa and allow the conflict to escalate). She might get along better with the Northern lords; IIRC she's described as a Northerner through and through? And when Arya is on someone's side she isn't half on someone's side.

The idea of Jaime and Brienne carrying each an half of Ned's sword is making my shipping heart flutter and hope for both of them to meet alive in the North in S8, and give them to Gendry so he can reforge Ice.

Now that I know I'll get a Davos/Gendry reunion in S7 (yay!) and probably won't get an Arya/Gendry reunion yet, I also want to see a "You're Arya's brother/You know Arya?" scene between Jon and Gendry. With mentions of Needle and Yoren. If they have time for a Greyworm/Missandei love scene (not a naysayer, love them, didn't consider their scenes a waste of time) they certainly have time for Rhaegar's son and Robert's son bonding, right? Right?

Maybe Sansa motivation won't be revenge but pragmatism, she may wish to avoid giving power to people she can't trust and angering any other Nothern Lords who were loyal (or at least weren't on the opposing side).

Reforging Ice would be impractical. It would make more sense to keep two swords instead for when it comes to fighting White Walkers. Besides, Oathkeeper's symbolism and signifcance in the show seems more to do with Jaime and Brienne's bond and the fact that Jaime both respects Brienne as a knight and trusts her to help regain his honour, which she wishes to do, than as a Stark sword. Widow's Wail will probably be the same.

If Oathkeeper's significance was that of a Stark sword, I think that Sansa or Jon would have mentioned it. As it is, the only time Oathkeeper is of importance is when the scene is about Brienne and Jaime, like when he first gave it to her or when she tried to return it.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

What about it?

 I suppose she could be filming with Kit, but we'll see who else from the Northern cast is sighted in the next little bit (if Maisie's in town, I'm sure the girls will be all over social media shortly).

Well I was posting to the bold, they ain't far away.

[OhOkayWhat]

Ugh! It's so frustrating .... I was reading the leaks thread on another board and Sansan shippers keep misquoting Alex Graves (4x10) about the last Sandor scene in that episode. Maybe they are not quoting Alex, but it seems the case. And they do not even know they are misquoting, I am pretty sure that even the first shipper who made the mistake did not know he/she was misquoting.I have not account there so I cannot correct them... Ugh!

Edited November 24, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Ugh! It's so frustrating .... I was reading the leaks thread on another board and Sansan shippers keep misquoting Alex Graves (4x10) about the last Sandor scene in that episode. Maybe they are not quoting Alex, but it seems the case. And they do not even know they are misquoting, I am pretty sure that even the first shipper who made the mistake did not know he/she was misquoting.I have not account there so I cannot correct them... Ugh!

If you are talking about that forum I think you are talking about,  I would suggest that you don't bother. No matter what you say, he/she will go on about Sansa drinking some ale and how that connects to Sandor drinking ale or some such shit. There's no point. You are not going to dissuade them.

In fandom these days shippers very staunchly defend their ship no matter what. Until the leaks got confirmed, many folks here thought that Jon/Sansa was happening. On this thread of book readers!   Even after comic con when Sophie ridiculed it and the writers confessed to not having thought on it - all that was dismissed as misdirection.

On tumblr there are Jon/Sansa fans who think that Jon is just running away from his feelings for Sansa by meeting Dany and shagging her. After he shags her, he realizes that he only ever truly loved Sansa and goes back to his one true love. All those camera angles and romantic moments they included in season 6 between Jon and Sansa should mean something! Dany is also surely dying at the end anyway. So no worries.

It's certainly going to be an interesting season 7 for the different factions in fandom, now that the show is reaching the end and we will know if our theories, speculations and predictions are right or wrong. I know that I am going to end up ranting about some aspects of it.  At least with all the leaks we get time to prepare, lol!

Edited November 25, 2016 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

Shipping ruins everything.

[OhOkayWhat]

47 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's certainly going to be an interesting season 7 for the different factions in fandom, now that the show is reaching the end and we will know if our theories, speculations and predictions are right or wrong

True. I think some book readers think the show endgame will be exactly the same than the books one for ALL the main characters and therefore they are afraid if some character does not fall in love with another one in the show it means it definitely will be the same in the books. I think they should relax, it will be not be exactly the same, maybe 80%-90% the same, and it means they should not think the show ending is proof of how the novels will end, shipping or not.

Edited November 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Shipping ruins everything.

I think it goes beyond the shipping itself .The "echo chamber" attitude is, sadly, a fact within the fandom.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Ugh! It's so frustrating .... I was reading the leaks thread on another board and Sansan shippers keep misquoting Alex Graves (4x10) about the last Sandor scene in that episode. Maybe they are not quoting Alex, but it seems the case. And they do not even know they are misquoting, I am pretty sure that even the first shipper who made the mistake did not know he/she was misquoting.I have not account there so I cannot correct them... Ugh!

Was this a after the episode interview?

Which leak thread?

Edited November 25, 2016 by GrailKing

[OhOkayWhat]

51 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Was this a after the episode interview?

Which leak thread?

It's the leaks thread in the Asoiaf Westeros board. And I think the Alex words they are misquoting are:

"I told [actor Rory McCann] during shooting that he’s saying all that really mean stuff, but what he’s really saying is ‘I love you,'"

I say they are misquoting because they think that he is talking about Sansa with the "I love you", and if we read the interview it is clear that it is not about her. 

Also, it is not only one interview, if I am not wrong, there are 3 different interviews about it that confirm it, besides, of course, the blu-ray/dvd commentary.

Edited November 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[FemmyV]

On 11/22/2016 at 5:05 PM, whateverdgaf said:

Reforging Ice would be impractical.

But in the Sci-fi world, very typical. And D and D made such a large production out of Tywin breaking it that it seems fairly predictable that's one of his more arrogant moves that would bite his all-important legacy in the ass.

Of minor note in the SanSan ship ... remember how some of us thought it was messed up that Brienne failed to tell Sansa who Arya was traveling with? Twice?  I just made a post on this in the character section but after re-watching Season 4 I found another huge lapse on Brienne's part: Hotpie sent her and Pod away with one of his Wolf cookies, with instructions to give it to Arya. Huge fail. No mention of it at all, and if she had trotted it out, there would have been a slight chance, at least, Arya would have been less hostile to Brienne, if nothing else. So at this point, it's just impossible to guess anything based on what Brienne says and does. The char is 100% DnD plot-driven at this point and I wouldn't base any ships on anything involved.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It's the leaks thread in the Asoiaf Westeros board. And I think the Alex words they are misquoting are:

"I told [actor Rory McCann] during shooting that he’s saying all that really mean stuff, but what he’s really saying is ‘I love you,'"

I say they are misquoting because they think he is talking about Sansa, and if we read the interview it is clear that it is not about her. Also, it is not only one interview, if I am not wrong, there are 3 different interviews about it, besides, of course, the blu-ray/dvd commentary.

Thanks I found the quote, Hound is clearly trying to get Arya to give him death, if he was wanting that scene to portray love for Arya then that failed.

But it's of Arya he speaks you feel, could be, but it didn't come across well.

6 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

But in the Sci-fi world, very typical. And D and D made such a large production out of Tywin breaking it that it seems fairly predictable that's one of his more arrogant moves that would bite his all-important legacy in the ass.

Of minor note in the SanSan ship ... remember how some of us thought it was messed up that Brienne failed to tell Sansa who Arya was traveling with? Twice?  I just made a post on this in the character section but after re-watching Season 4 I found another huge lapse on Brienne's part: Hotpie sent her and Pod away with one of his Wolf cookies, with instructions to give it to Arya. Huge fail. No mention of it at all, and if she had trotted it out, there would have been a slight chance, at least, Arya would have been less hostile to Brienne, if nothing else. So at this point, it's just impossible to guess anything based on what Brienne says and does. The char is 100% DnD plot-driven at this point and I wouldn't base any ships on anything involved.

WRT the Wolf bread, I just assumed they ate it or it went bad.

[FemmyV]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

WRT the Wolf bread, I just assumed they ate it or it went bad.

Hard to say how much of a time gap. Bread was given to them 4.7, they found Arya 4.10. But she could have, at least, mentioned Hotpie.  I'm starting to think of Brienne as a stereotypical dumb jock.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, FemmyV said:

Hard to say how much of a time gap. Bread was given to them 4.7, they found Arya 4.10. But she could have, at least, mentioned Hotpie.  I'm starting to think of Brienne as a stereotypical dumb jock.

You think ?

LOL I know it's not politically correct but it looked like a number of times Podrick was speaking truths to her but ignored him, the inn scene comes to mind, even Sansa is trying to warn her after Brienne blurted out Lady Sansa.

So dumb jock is close enough. LOL

[whateverdgaf]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

You think ?

LOL I know it's not politically correct but it looked like a number of times Podrick was speaking truths to her but ignored him, the inn scene comes to mind, even Sansa is trying to warn her after Brienne blurted out Lady Sansa.

So dumb jock is close enough. LOL

Before you call Brienne a dumb jock, remember that she could go home any time she wants. Tarth is still there and if she wanted to she could return to a life of relative luxury and safety. Instead she continues trying to look out for two young girls out of love for their mother. That's pretty selfless. In fact, that's extremely selfless. She has a father who she loves but instead of going back to him she is willing to put her life on the line to help others. Besides, she is capable of surviving in the wilderness for long periods of time, so she clearly isn't an idiot.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

But it's of Arya he speaks you feel, could be, but it didn't come across well.

It is clear Alex is not talking about Sansa, he is talking about Arya.

The Tv Fanatic interview:

"I told [actor Rory McCann] during shooting that he’s saying all that really mean stuff, but what he’s really saying is ‘I love you,'" Graves said.

And why didn't Arya reciprocate with a sword to The Hound's chest?

"She more like her mother than her father," Graves said. "And he was on her list."

The Hollywood Reporter interview:

Everything he says is fairly ugly. The only thing I said to Rory was, "Everything you say is basically, 'I love you. Kill me.' " He brought in that sense of brotherly or paternal affection for her, and it is really not being returned in his final moments.

The Season 4 Blu-ray/Dvd commentary:

Brienne : That's what you're doing? Watching over her?

Sandor: Aye, that's what I'm doing

Alex Graves: And you can see right there: he loves her. And he's not doing it for the money. He's doing it 'cause he loves her.

(I do not remember what Rory and Gwen said in the commentary)

It is pretty clear in the interviews and the commentary, that Alex is saying Sandor loves Arya. He is not talking about Sansan.

 

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

if he was wanting that scene to portray love for Arya then that failed.

About the failures within the director work. It's not a director failing portraying the feelings of a man. It's a director portraying a man who fails at expressing those feelings. Both things are not the same.

Lets be clear: Sandor is a mess. And his relationship with Arya is changing, it is clear that they care for each other in their last weeks together. And he has a lot of issues, huge ones. Therefore instead of expressing his real feelings toward her (that he cares about her) he just ends saying those awful words. And the director tells us precisely that.

I often see people say : the writer/director made a mistake within the narrative! This character did this or that, and it does not make sense within his/her plot! And sometimes it's a wrong kind of criticism: incorrect analysis mixed with the headcanon of the fan. The writer/director is just showing us a man/woman making mistakes as part of the human nature of a character. Therefore, at least, we cannot say it does not make sense as part of the  his/her narrative.

That is the case of Sandor final scenes in season 4. It is not a failure of the director at portraying the feelings of a man. It is just that fictional man failing at expressing those feelings and Alex showing us that failure. It is a confusing situation for the characters involved and the director showed us that.

Edited November 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Before you call Brienne a dumb jock, remember that she could go home any time she wants. Tarth is still there and if she wanted to she could return to a life of relative luxury and safety. Instead she continues trying to look out for two young girls out of love for their mother. That's pretty selfless. In fact, that's extremely selfless. She has a father who she loves but instead of going back to him she is willing to put her life on the line to help others. Besides, she is capable of surviving in the wilderness for long periods of time, so she clearly isn't an idiot.

Her actions and decision's are less then stellar, and unlike Sansa who makes some childish errors, Brienne is a full grown adult, it's the decisions for her age group that pins her as less smart, and even jocks are smart in some things but fail at others ( I do mean this lovingly by the way) .

AS I mentioned: (between book and show version) looking for a girl aged 2 & 10 with red hair have you seen her?, or being surrounded by 6-10 men as you lumber in a den of killers and blurt Lady Sansa etc., Princess Shireen isn't or wasn't a jock, but she was a lot smarter then Brienne.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is clear Alex is not talking about Sansa, he is talking about Arya.

The Tv Fanatic interview:

"I told [actor Rory McCann] during shooting that he’s saying all that really mean stuff, but what he’s really saying is ‘I love you,'" Graves said.

And why didn't Arya reciprocate with a sword to The Hound's chest?

"She more like her mother than her father," Graves said. "And he was on her list."

The Hollywood Reporter interview:

Everything he says is fairly ugly. The only thing I said to Rory was, "Everything you say is basically, 'I love you. Kill me.' " He brought in that sense of brotherly or paternal affection for her, and it is really not being returned in his final moments.

The Season 4 Blu-ray/Dvd commentary:

Brienne : That's what you're doing? Watching over her?

Sandor: Aye, that's what I'm doing

Alex Graves: And you can see right there: he loves her. And he's not doing it for the money. He's doing it 'cause he loves her.

(I do not remember what Rory and Gwen said in the commentary)

It is pretty clear in the interviews and the commentary, that Alex is saying Sandor loves Arya. He is not talking about Sansan.

 

About the failures within the director work. It's not a director failing portraying the feelings of a man. It's a director portraying a man who fails at expressing those feelings. Both things are not the same.

Lets be clear: Sandor is a mess. And his relationship with Arya is changing, it is clear that they care for each other in their last weeks together. And he has a lot of issues, huge ones. Therefore instead of expressing his real feelings toward her (that he cares about her) he just ends saying those awful words. And the director tells us precisely that.

I often see people say : the writer/director made a mistake within the narrative! This character did this or that, and it does not make sense within his/her plot! And sometimes it's a wrong kind of criticism: incorrect analysis mixed with the headcanon of the fan. The writer/director is just showing us a man/woman making mistakes as part of the human nature of a character. Therefore, at least, we cannot say it does not make sense as part of the  his/her narrative.

That is the case of Sandor final scenes in season 4. It is not a failure of the director at portraying the feelings of a man. It is just that fictional man failing at expressing those feelings and Alex showing us that failure. It is a confusing situation for the characters involved and the director showed us that.

I knew what those scenes meant, I knew it wasn't Sansa the Hound was aiming at, but it was hard picking up Sandor's love for the Stark girl in that scene, just like many don't pick up on the nuances of others, Sansa's final look at Belish or her quick eye movement to the Arryn guards at the inn with Brienne come to mind, the director can say how he wants it doesn't mean people will interpret as such. 

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

I knew what those scenes meant, I knew it wasn't Sansa the Hound was aiming at, but it was hard picking up Sandor's love for the Stark girl in that scene, just like many don't pick up on the nuances of others, Sansa's final look at Belish or her quick eye movement to the Arryn guards at the inn with Brienne come to mind, the director can say how he wants it doesn't mean people will interpret as such. 

It is not uncommon that people does not pick up all the stuff from a scene, it happened to me too. But an interesting thing is this: isolated, almost every scene does not mean as much as it means as a part of its storyline.

That is obvious, of course. And it is obvious too that the scene does not exist alone: it is a part of a bigger Arya-Sandor story arc. It is connected to the previous scene, it is connected to their previous conversations and actions.

Isolated, it is hard to pick up that it shows us a man and his heart breaking trying to express stuff beyond his awful words.

But we know this is not a isolated event and therefore, we also know, it is possible we are watching something else here, hidden within that very emotional scene.

Edited November 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GrailKing]

59 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is not uncommon that people does not pick up all the stuff from a scene, it happened to me too. But an interesting thing is this: isolated, almost every scene does not mean as much as it means as a part of its storyline.

That is obvious, of course. And it is obvious too that the scene does not exist alone: it is a part of a bigger Arya-Sandor story arc. It is connected to the previous scene, it is connected to their previous conversations and actions.

Isolated, it is hard to pick up that it shows us a man and his heart breaking trying to express stuff beyond his awful words.

But we know this is not a isolated event and therefore, we also know, it is possible we are watching something else here, hidden within that very emotional scene.

Agree.

[whateverdgaf]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Her actions and decision's are less then stellar, and unlike Sansa who makes some childish errors, Brienne is a full grown adult, it's the decisions for her age group that pins her as less smart, and even jocks are smart in some things but fail at others ( I do mean this lovingly by the way) .

AS I mentioned: (between book and show version) looking for a girl aged 2 & 10 with red hair have you seen her?, or being surrounded by 6-10 men as you lumber in a den of killers and blurt Lady Sansa etc., Princess Shireen isn't or wasn't a jock, but she was a lot smarter then Brienne.

Brienne isn't good at social interactions, and considering the way people have treated her it stands to reason that she would have avoided social interactions when she could, but she is capable (as I said) at surviving long periods of time in the wild. That actually takes a lot of brains and is something that many characters (even those who are usually considered the smart ones) would fail at. And it's not like she grew up knowing this stuff like the Wildlings, it was not part of her culture. She was a lady. She took the initiative and the dedication to learn it.

And she is so much more than just a jock. There's more to her charater than her strength, there is her heart and resilience. Never once has she decided to give up and go home, she always perseveres. Her greatest joy is to help and serve others and she is probably one of the most selfless characters on the show, purely because unlike many others she could just choose to give up and go home. Everything she is doing now, she knows will not bring her glory of wealth, and she knows that she will probably die young and maybe never see her father again.  She could avoid war and bloodshed and stop risking her life if she wanted, but she doesn't.  And not enough people, not inside the show nor outside, appreciate that.

[anamika]

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-armor-house-army-revealed-cast-members-come-together-belfast/

Really looking forward to Dany's army of Unsullied and Dothraki taking on the Lannister and Tarly army. Robert Baratheon talked about how fearsome the Dothraki would be. It will be interesting to see the different fighting techniques from the two continents go up against each other. I wonder if D and D got any hints from GRRM regarding this or if they are doing their own thing. How such a battle will go has been discussed and debated for years and we now get to see it!

Although Drogon getting taken down by some kind of spear gun sounds like a whole lot of bullcrap.

[SimoneS]

18 hours ago, GrailKing said:

You think ?

LOL I know it's not politically correct but it looked like a number of times Podrick was speaking truths to her but ignored him, the inn scene comes to mind, even Sansa is trying to warn her after Brienne blurted out Lady Sansa.

So dumb jock is close enough. LOL

It has nothing to do with being "political correct," a sickening code word. Rather it is a mischaracterization of Brienne who is brave, loyal, and full of integrity. I see a lot of resentment and open misogyny against her because she killed Stannis and took out the Hound on the Internet.

Edited November 26, 2016 by SimoneS

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Rather it is a mischaracterization of Brienne who is brave, loyal, and full of integrity. I see a lot of resentment and open misogyny against her because she killed Stannis and took out the Hound on the Internet.

I have no trouble with Brienne killing Stannis; her fight with the Hound was out of petulance, however ... I do think the latter is still more evidence of her arrogant refusal to reconsider her own judgement. Like every character on GoT, even the white hats, Brienne is not without faults. Brienne repeatedly fails to see the forest through the trees and its — for now — impossible to know whether this is intentional, or because TIIC are driving the action by plot instead of character. As much as we may love her, we have to admit, she tends to fail. A lot.

Charged with protected Renly: fail.

Charged with bringing Jamie to KL: fail

Charged with bringing the Stark girls to Winterfell: fail.

The only quest Brienne has successfully completed is the one she set for herself: killing Stannis.

We can only hope D and D choose to make some other character as Season 7's Saint of Missed Opportunities.

[whateverdgaf]

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I have no trouble with Brienne killing Stannis; her fight with the Hound was out of petulance, however ... I do think the latter is still more evidence of her arrogant refusal to reconsider her own judgement. Like every character on GoT, even the white hats, Brienne is not without faults. Brienne repeatedly fails to see the forest through the trees and its — for now — impossible to know whether this is intentional, or because TIIC are driving the action by plot instead of character. As much as we may love her, we have to admit, she tends to fail. A lot.

Charged with protected Renly: fail.

Charged with bringing Jamie to KL: fail

Charged with bringing the Stark girls to Winterfell: fail.

The only quest Brienne has successfully completed is the one she set for herself: killing Stannis.

We can only hope D and D choose to make some other character as Season 7's Saint of Missed Opportunities.

Renly died, which was out of her control. How was she meant to kill a shadow? She did however succeed in avenging him. And Jaime said so himself that she protected him better than most. Remember the entire Riverlands were out to get him and he didn't make protecting him easy. And she did rescue Sansa, which was her original goal after Season 4.

The fact is Brienne sets herself near impossible goals, escorting a wanted man through from the Riverlands to King's Landing with everyone looking for him. Finding a young girl who could be anywhere in Westeros and somehow keeping her safe. And yet she does everything in her abilities to do so and never gives up. And if it weren't for Brienne, Sansa and Theon would be back with Ramsay and the Starks would never have regained Winterfell.

As for the Hound, I remember pretty clearly that she had him on his knees and gave him the chance to concede, which he refused. So it clearly wasn't just her arrogance at play. The Hound was being pretty stubborn two.

So no, Brienne was not without faults. She does struggle with social interactions and reading people. But she has a lot of strengths as well that people routinely overlook. They forget that she goes through life being judged and ridiculed and yet still holds onto her moral code. They forget that she is willing to risk her life over and over for others. Or that she never gives up on achieving her goals despite the numerous setbacks she faces. They forget that if she wanted she could just go home and live the rest of her life in peace.

9 hours ago, anamika said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-armor-house-army-revealed-cast-members-come-together-belfast/

Really looking forward to Dany's army of Unsullied and Dothraki taking on the Lannister and Tarly army. Robert Baratheon talked about how fearsome the Dothraki would be. It will be interesting to see the different fighting techniques from the two continents go up against each other. I wonder if D and D got any hints from GRRM regarding this or if they are doing their own thing. How such a battle will go has been discussed and debated for years and we now get to see it!

Although Drogon getting taken down by some kind of spear gun sounds like a whole lot of bullcrap.

I'm curious to see how Dany tries to keep control of the Dothraki, and how the Small Folk respond to her. If Dany can't control the Dothraki then it would be them who are affected the most. I also wonder how the change in location will affect how the Dothraki and Unsullied fight, it would be sure to put them at a disadvantage. I'm also pretty interested to see what the other noble houses think. Many of them would hate and distrust Cersei after she blew up her own allies, but they may also be wary of Dany. So it would be cool to see who they end up backing. Considering what they would know about the two queens, I reckon that neither option would look that appealing.

[GreyBunny]

I want to see how the Dothraki in their thin, grasslands clothes can effectively fight in the snow.  Winter has arrived and they're going to need to bundle up.  The Unsullied as well; they may be trained to be more tolerant of a wide range of conditions but there is only so much a human body, even an Unsullied one, can take.