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Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion


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1 hour ago, SeanC said:

.....that's contrary to what a sworn sword is meant to do, and Brienne is nothing if not conscientious.

Precisely. That is the whole point of my commentaries. "Rules vs. Conscience" (and sometimes "Rules vs. Heart") is a fundamental element within Brienne narrative and she is a special knight not only because she is a woman. Therefore, her decision makes a lot of sense.

 

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

especially since she knows nothing about any previous history between Sansa and Sandor, so it can't be argued that she's protecting Sansa from some horrible truth or something like that.

It is true, she does not know about the previous Sansa-Sandor history, the problem is, "Clegane brothers" means very bad news in Westeros, and it does not matter if Sandor is different than Gregor (as the show audience knows), Westerosi people seems oblivious of this fact. Therefore, telling her about her little sister walking with a Clegane brother, without knowing Sansa-Sandor history, only means inside Brienne mind, that she is telling Sansa very bad news.

 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Perhaps not. But if the show wanted to avoid giving hope to Sansan shippingbook fans ,what better way to avoid it then to not bring him up in her presence?  

Maybe they are not intentionally avoiding Sansan in that scene, but they did not included Sansan scenes and clear references in 4 seasons, even if they had lots of opportunities and they actually did it with Arya and Sandor not-romantic relationship. And if they finally decided to include Sansan in season 6 (while thinking about season 7), why Sandor never mentioned Sansa or any reference to her?, he had plenty of dialogue screentime the last season to do it.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Perhaps not. But if the show wanted to avoid giving hope to Sansan shippingbook fans ,what better way to avoid it then to not bring him up in her presence? 

If they were trying to kill SanSan, the best way would be to have Brienne say she killed the Hound and have Sansa not care.

32 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Precisely. That is the whole point of my commentaries. "Rules vs. Conscience" (and sometimes "Rules vs. Heart") is a fundamental element within Brienne narrative and she is a special knight not only because she is a woman. Therefore, her decision makes a lot of sense.

If it was meant to be some deliberate part of Brienne's character, there would be some narrative indication of this, but there isn't any.  They would have had Podrick ask her "why didn't you say anything about the Hound?" or whatever.

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On 9/20/2016 at 3:10 PM, Eyes High said:

Sansa doesn't call LF's vision a "pretty dream"; she calls it a "pretty picture," and her tone is not contemptuous, but wistful.

I thought that Sansa's tone was dismissive which made sense. After all, only a delusional fool like Littlefinger would believe that she would return his feelings and that he has a chance of sitting on the Iron Throne.

Edited by SimoneS
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1 hour ago, SeanC said:

If they were trying to kill SanSan, the best way would be to have Brienne say she killed the Hound and have Sansa not care.

Exactly. Seeing one character's indifference towards another is a surefire way to kill any interest I may have in their interactions (romantic or platonic). Instead, the writers created an elephant in the room that was clearly noticed by many viewers, and has obviously piqued a lot of interest in what it may mean.

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3 hours ago, SeanC said:

If they were trying to kill SanSan, the best way would be to have Brienne say she killed the Hound and have Sansa not care.

It was a heartwarming scene and the Hound is a very popular character, if they show Sansa not caring about him, it makes her look heartless, and it defies the "heartwarming" element of the scene. But I do not think it was intentional.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

If it was meant to be some deliberate part of Brienne's character, there would be some narrative indication of this, but there isn't any.  They would have had Podrick ask her "why didn't you say anything about the Hound?" or whatever.

I think the purpose of the scene was not Brienne development as character, but I think it still makes sense within the story. I will explain myself: maybe the only intention of the scene was to make Brienne tell Sansa about Arya being alive. Then, they noticed that including a reference to the Hound by name, implied using more minutes with Sansa and Brienne talking about Sandor, the big fight and the Hound possibly dying, about Arya being left alone and Brienne apologizing, creating the necessity of rework this new Brienne-Sansa relationship, etc.

To avoid using screentime like that, maybe they asked themselves: what if Brienne does not mention him by name? does it make sense? and they found that, in fact, it makes sense. Therefore, they made her call him "a man". It was not the intention, it was a by-product of the narrative and screentime needs, and at the same time, it made sense within the Brienne story arc.

Also, they include in the dialogue the fact Brienne told Sansa only half of the whole story: she did not mention she fought to death "that man" . Maybe the writers thought that to include that omission in Brienne dialogue was a big enough clue for the audience that Brienne was hiding information.

 

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

Exactly. Seeing one character's indifference towards another is a surefire way to kill any interest I may have in their interactions (romantic or platonic). Instead, the writers created an elephant in the room that was clearly noticed by many viewers, and has obviously piqued a lot of interest in what it may mean.

The problem with the elephant in the room theory, is that it creates a logical problem in the room to oppose the elephant. I will explain myself: if they purposely hide Sandor name from Sansa because an unknown romantic Sansan intention, it logically means that they finally are thinking about Sansan, and if that is the case, then it is logical they noticed the pretty noticeable lack of any Sansan in the show with so few episodes left.

And if that is true, then why (with almost 17 minutes of Sandor scenes in season 6, if I am not wrong) they decided to omite any mention to Sansa within those almost 17 minutes? That does not make sense, if it is true that they finally decided to write Sansa and Sandor toward a Sansan endgame.

Edited by OhOkayWhat

You have an interesting interpretation of this issue OhOkWhat, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my mind, the omission of Sandor's name in that conversation is either an example of clumsy writing or editing (which wouldn't surprise me) or will somehow be significant in the future. There is no in-story logic that I can accept.  Also, I think they could easily show Sansa being indifferent to hearing his name without looking heartless. She could simply acknowledge that she was glad that he had kept Arya safe and left it at that. By indifferent, I don't mean that she doesn't care, just that she feels neutral about him and keeps her focus on getting more information about Arya. I do accept the possibility you raised that it might have been cut due to time constraints (because it would require more explanation of what happened between Brienne, Arya, and Sandor), and it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the DVD has an extended version of the scene in which Brienne did say his name. I can just picture the writers saying that the scene was too long so they trimmed a few lines, and them being surprised that anyone read more meaning into it. The showrunners are certainly not infallible, and this could be the Jaime/Cersei rape scene controversy all over again- bad editing leading to misinterpretations.

As far as the omission of any Sansa reference during Sandor's 17 minutes of screen time in season 6, I don't think this means anything one way or another. During that time he was either talking to the septon about general things (like his violent nature) or was on a revenge mission. It was hardly the time to casually mention some pretty girl he may or may not have had a crush on years earlier. IIRC he also didn't mention Arya or his brother, and I think most people believe that he will meet up with one or both of them again before the end.

Just to clarify, I don't personally think a romantic version of SanSan is the end game. However, I have always thought that their paths would cross again in some significant way, and to me the conversation in 6.02 has only added fuel to this speculation.  I guess we'll all just have to wait to find out who is correct!

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37 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

IIRC he also didn't mention Arya or his brother, and I think most people believe that he will meet up with one or both of them again before the end.

In fact, there is a little reference to Arya in Sandor dialogue, something like "tougher girls than you have tried to kill me" to one of the BWB guys of Thoros group. The audience know only two of them: Brienne and Arya.

 

37 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Just to clarify, I don't personally think a romantic version of SanSan is the end game. However, I have always thought that their paths would cross again in some significant way, and to me the conversation in 6.02 has only added fuel to this speculation.  I guess we'll all just have to wait to find out who is correct!

Your interpretation is very interesting too. And I also think Sandor and Sansa will cross paths again in the show. My theory is that it will bring closure to their relationship in a meaningful way somehow, maybe he will kneel before her and she will make him a knight before he go with the rest of troops to fight White Walkers, or something like that.

I think his real endgame in the show is more related to Arya. It seems they invested a lot more of energy, creativity and screentime in their non-romantic relationship.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
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6 hours ago, SeanC said:

If they were trying to kill SanSan, the best way would be to have Brienne say she killed the Hound and have Sansa not care.

If Sansa ignored the fact that her sister was in the company of a known psycopath, that would've made her look callous.

 

4 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Exactly. Seeing one character's indifference towards another is a surefire way to kill any interest I may have in their interactions (romantic or platonic). Instead, the writers created an elephant in the room that was clearly noticed by many viewers, and has obviously piqued a lot of interes

Yea, by book readers who were committed to SanSan to begin with. Show only watchers probably not so much. 

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 Also, I think they could easily show Sansa being indifferent to hearing his name without looking heartless. She could simply acknowledge that she was glad that he had kept Arya safe and left it at that.

But then she's acknowledging Hound and something really positive again. Once again, that's stoking the fires of that Sansan ship. Not to mention that I'd imagine any rational person wouldn't be happy/grateful with their sibling in the presence of a psycopath.

Edited by Oscirus
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23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If Sansa ignored the fact that her sister was in the company of a known psycopath, that would've made her look callous.

Sansa knew he wasn't a psychopath.  All they would have had to do is show Sansa move on to asking about Arya.

Or the could have simply started the conversation slightly later, with Sansa asking if Brienne knows where Arya went.  The way they wrote the conversation, in fact, come across, as much as anything, as a clumsy attempt to establish that Sansa doesn't know the Hound was involved.

Strategically, it would have been a good thing for Sansa to know in whose company Arya was at that time. No matter how much of a heavy Brienne & Pod may think Sandor is, the fact that Arya was with him, willingly, was information that Sansa (and later, John) could use, at least in theory. That's not about Sansan shipping, it's just rational sense that anyone without an agenda would conclude.

It was a massive elephant in the room in an otherwise good episode. 

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3 hours ago, FemmyV said:

That's not about Sansan shipping, it's just rational sense that anyone without an agenda would conclude.

Maybe this is not only about agendas and shipping, maybe this is also about where the audience analysis go: within the scene (the characters interacting) or beyond it (the indirect use of the scene as a plot device for a future event in the show). Both analysis routes are interesting to explore.

By the way, I think Brienne is an interesting character in the show. And Sandor too.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
20 hours ago, SeanC said:

The argument that it defies internal logic doesn't make any sense to me.  There is no indication Brienne is purposefully withholding anything, and it makes little sense for her to do so; that's contrary to what a sworn sword is meant to do, and Brienne is nothing if not conscientious.

To me it seemed that she purposefully withheld that info due to Sansa's condition for the moment, only readers and in the know viewers understand the dynamics between Sansa and Clegane; everyone else knows Sandor as a mad killing machine who is part of the group who had a hand in the Starks downfall.

So Brienne's reason could be and it would be understandable to spare her extra emotional pain.

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Just now, GrailKing said:

To me it seemed that she purposefully withheld that info due to Sansa's condition for the moment, only readers and in the know viewers understand the dynamics between Sansa and Clegane; everyone else knows Sandor as a mad killing machine who is part of the group who had a hand in the Starks downfall.

So Brienne's reason could be and it would be understandable to spare her extra emotional pain.

Yes, I agree with this.

 

Just now, TxanGoddess said:

And see I took it as embarrassment  on Brianne part that Arya would prefer the protection of the Hound - and later no one at all - to what Brianne was offering.

Just one more opinion to mix things up!

That is an interesting possibility.

Also, maybe she is ashamed because she finally found Arya and all that ended with violence anyway.

Kristofer Hivju posted a photo with Bella Ramsey, which would suggest she's in Season 7 -- which is not terribly surprising, in turn, given how popular she was.  I do hope they don't overuse Mormont, though; or rather, if they're going to have her around more, I would hope they show more variation to the character than that doubling down on the same schtick over and over.

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Daily Mail on-set photos for what they claim is preparation for a big battle scene filmed shortly after the Emmy Awards -- I don't know that I'd rely on their speculation about the script, but the photos themselves are obviously genuine, and they have Kit, Gwendoline, Liam, Aiden, Daniel Portman, and a woman that the newspaper identifies as a body double for Sophie.  The most interesting part, though, is that the article claims they're filming at the Banbridge set for Riverrun.  I'm not clear on what basis that's being asserted, but it would upend most speculations about the Northern plot in Season 7 if it's true.

Though if Jon and Sansa do go south, that would perhaps resolve the issue some have raised about how the Northern political conflict plot would work with Bran around -- which is to say, they might leave before Bran shows up.

Edited by SeanC
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Never would have guessed that Jon himself goes south.  For what reason is he going to be fighting at Riverrun when the WW are knocking at the gates? Confusing.

Wait, so Brienne and Pod go to Winterfell and then go back to Riverrun... Or everyone else rides south to meet up with them in Riverrun? And Sansa in Riverrun? What even was the point of her going North? Maybe we will be rejoining her book story...

Edited by anamika

Who does Jon leave in charge of the North? And please no one say Lyanna Mormont. I like her fine, but just no.

The Riverlands are probably one hot mess right now with no one in charge there. Do people wanna follow Edmure after what he's done? He's betrayed his kin. Maybe Jon is on a mission with Sansa to rally the Riverlands to the Northern cause. And this is where Sansa might get her real chance at showing what she can do because she is still a Tully after all.

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I hope Lord Glover is back for Season 7. The actor did a really good job. If Lyanna Mormont's back, dare I hope...?

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WOTW stated that they were filming at Linen Mill Studios in Banbridge, which is where the Riverrun facade is, but since they were filming indoors it's not clear where this was set. So it could be in the North, for all we know.

Given the actors spotted, a Winterfell interior scene with Jon and Sansa's inner circle--Davos, LF, Brienne, Pod, etc.--seems likely, much like the 6x05 scene with Jon, Sansa, and Davos. Seems odd that Tormund wouldn't be in the mix, though.

DM also noted that Daniel Portman was wearing a cooling vest, which they said was prep for wearing heavy armour. It was funny that the DM incorrectly identified Portman as Joe Dempsie before correcting themselves; to be fair, the actors look a lot alike.

Kind of surprised these photos were taken at all, let alone released, given the secrecy on set. They don't really spoil much, other than Brienne and Pod linking back up with Sansa at some point, but still.

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Daily Mail on-set photos for what they claim is preparation for a big battle scene filmed shortly after the Emmy Awards

"Big battle scene?" At Riverrun? Colour me skeptical. I'm very curious about how Riverrun figures into the upcoming season, though.

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

"Big battle scene?" At Riverrun? Colour me skeptical. I'm very curious about how Riverrun figures into the upcoming season, though.

They're most likely using the same set but will make it a different setting with the use of CGI. 

Edited by CofCinci

A big battle scene at Riverrun isn't out of the question. The Freys are still holding the Riverlands, and both Starks (kin to Tullys) and LF have reasons to engage them. It could even be similar to a book plot, as the chance of the Vale army fighting in the Riverlands is higher than the chance of fighting in the frozen north - even though they still would need a solution for the passes out of the Vale. Such a plot could also easily involve the Brotherhood without banners, which are firmly entrenched in the Riverlands in the books (and also look to be ready to wreak havoc on the Freys). 

Since the Freys are likely to ally to Cersei, it might also play a part in the war between Dany and Cersei/Euron.

46 minutes ago, Wouter said:

A big battle scene at Riverrun isn't out of the question. The Freys are still holding the Riverlands, and both Starks (kin to Tullys) and LF have reasons to engage them. It could even be similar to a book plot, as the chance of the Vale army fighting in the Riverlands is higher than the chance of fighting in the frozen north - even though they still would need a solution for the passes out of the Vale. Such a plot could also easily involve the Brotherhood without banners, which are firmly entrenched in the Riverlands in the books (and also look to be ready to wreak havoc on the Freys). 

Since the Freys are likely to ally to Cersei, it might also play a part in the war between Dany and Cersei/Euron.

There were only a few Freys with speaking parts and they're all dead now. There's no reason they're going to continue to be a factor with Freys we haven't met. Riverrun was only of interest to Sansa and LF in s5 because Sansa thought they could provide an army to help her. Even if Sansa/LF did care about taking the riverlands back now as Sansa's own lands, there's no reason Jon should care. He would only be there if the riverlords wanted to unite with the North against the WW, not to delay the North's efforts against the true threat so he could help his stepmother's kin. And any Dany/Stark alliance would be about the War for the Dawn, not Jon going South to help her get rid of Cersei. The North is under no real threat from the South, especially in winter.

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6 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

The most interesting thing about those photos is that it appears Jon and Brienne are wearing the same blouse.

Yes, but who wore it better?

In all seriousness, the actors appeared half-dressed, thus Kit's visible suspenders and the Sansa stand-in's plain dress. Gwendoline also appeared to be holding the same kind of tubing that was on Daniel Portman's cooling vest. I'm guessing they were both going to be wearing armour for the actual scene.

More Daily Mail on-set photos, this time of Kit and Sophie's maybe-body double (it would be funny if, after all this, it turned out she was actually some new castmember).

Nothing terribly interesting in the photos themselves, but the DM seems to have a mole on-set on an ongoing basis, so this could be a valuable spoiler source going forward (though I'm sure the production is a-hunting to identify the problem).

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It's looking more likely that the girl is a separate character.

Also of note, Jeremy Podeswa is in one of the photos, so this is probably in one of the first two episodes, based on a comment he made that sounded like he was doing the opening episodes again.

Yeah I saw that. Also the guy says that he has more pictures, maybe there's more of the cast that we haven't seen yet

I would assume this scene was some kind of ranging mission, given that Jon, Brienne and Pod are apparently armoured and Sansa's not there, except Baelish is apparently also there (I guess he could volunteer to go along for some nefarious purpose, but that doesn't really sound like something he'd do).

Also, if the suppositions about Podeswa are correct, Brienne evidently makes her way back North almost immediately, contrary to my earlier assumptions.  If so, that makes her absence in the finale a lot weirder to me in retrospect.

Edited by SeanC
15 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I would assume this scene was some kind of ranging mission, given that Jon, Brienne and Pod are apparently armoured and Sansa's not there, except Baelish is apparently also there (I guess he could volunteer to go along for some nefarious purpose, but that doesn't really sound like something he'd do).

Also, if the suppositions about Podeswa are correct, Brienne evidently makes her way back North almost immediately, contrary to my earlier assumptions.  If so, that makes her absence in the finale a lot weirder to me in retrospect.

Maybe it is a rescue mission, the family of some lord ( Jon goes to rescue them from the Boltons? ). If Podeswa directs 2 episodes, maybe this is the second one, and it is possible for 1 episode to contain several weeks or more  within, therefore Brienne absence in season finale is not so weird.

8 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

If Podeswa directs 2 episodes, maybe this is the second one, and it is possible for 1 episode to contain several weeks or more  within, therefore Brienne absence in season finale is not so weird.

The issue isn't time (610 sees Varys travel from Dorne to Meereen offscreen, and they sail some uncertain distance the other way), it's that, if Brienne isn't going to do anything further in the Riverlands before returning to Winterfell, which seems likely at this point if she's back by episode 2 at the latest, I'm not sure why they didn't just have her back for the KITN scene last season.

36 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe the question is not "why not?" maybe the question is "why yes?" They did not need Brienne in the scene, therefore she was not there. It is about narrative needs.

The show has always preferred to have as many characters in the finale as possible.  It just seemed to me that if Brienne was going to uneventfully return home, she might as well have done it in the finale rather than missing out.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The show has always preferred to have as many characters in the finale as possible.  It just seemed to me that if Brienne was going to uneventfully return home, she might as well have done it in the finale rather than missing out.

I think the KitN room had enough people inside, but maybe you are right, your observation was a very good one. Perhaps it is important that Brienne never knelt before Jon, as many people with swords did in the KitN scene.

Edited by OhOkayWhat

Not enough news/rumors  about Dany's crew. Let me fix that.

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Los Siete Reinos has also heard details about a scene that sounds exciting. The scene planned for shooting in nearby Los Barruecos, around the watery territory there, will involve a major character falling into the water. 

There is no guarantee that the fall is part of the fighting, but it does seem possible, considering the terrain there is similar to the area nearby where the action will be shot. Production has been testing locally how they can accomplish it. As for what that scene is- well, there are many possibilities but the most intriguing is the idea thatsomeone may be falling off a dragon while riding it in battle. 

There’s another chunk of info concerning the Malpartida shooting: the new report says that we can expect to see at least one Lannister in the fray. Previous information learned from the extras casting process tells us that we can expect the involvement of Unsullied soldiers and Dothraki warriors, and so the presence of Tyrion is almost a given at this point. L7R has heard, though this is not confirmed, that the conflict there will involve Tyrion and one of his siblings. 
 

Sophie Hairwatch 2016: still blonde as of October 1st, according to her Instagram.

I doubt that the "Sansa body double" is anything of the sort. Sansa doesn't wear swords, and the "double" does: Tommy Dunne, the GOT weapons guy, was fitting the "double" with the belt, and it looks like there's a pommel there. The "double" is also wearing a very plain, drab dress unlike the dresses Sansa wears (with elaborate embroidery, rich fabrics, or multiple layers). It's not an underdress, either. Even Lyanna Mormont wears more elaborate costumes than the "double."

It does seem strange to have the characters closest to Sansa--Jon, Brienne, LF, etc.--filming a scene when Sansa's actress is nowhere to be found. (I have no doubt that the paparazzo who posted the other pics from the set would have snapped Sophie if she'd been anywhere near this scene.) It also seems strange to cast another character played by an actress not too far off Sansa's age from the looks of it with Sansa's colouring to share scenes with characters in Sansa's storyline. Maybe Sansa dies fairly early on in the season.

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