Relationship Thread: Dysfunction Junction

slayer2 · October 18, 2014

True. It brings up a lot of questions. Like someone said upthread, if they are living the same day over and over then Damon had blood like, a day ago so wouldn't need it desperately and could keep eating food all la-di-da because it'd be more of a reset. If they are on the Other Side instead of completely dead dead then it would explain why everybody threatening everybody else's death would be a motivator but if they are actually completely dead instead of only kind of dead (/Princess Bride) then I don't know why Bonnie taking his ring off or Kai killing Damon would be a problem. Wow just realize two people threatened to kill Damon in this AU of only 3 people. He must be REALLY annoying.

Question: Does anybody know how Damon killed Bonnie? Why does he keep saying he'll apologize for killing her? Is he threatening to kill her? If so, how can he kill her if they are already dead? Oh I'm so confused, I haven't watched this show faithfully since they killed Anna. Somebody help please.

Aeryn13 · October 18, 2014

Question: Does anybody know how Damon killed Bonnie? Why does he keep saying he'll apologize for killing her? Is he threatening to kill her? If so, how can he kill her if they are already dead? Oh I'm so confused, I haven't watched this show faithfully since they killed Anna. Somebody help please.

You mean in the recent episode? He was just snarking. Bonnie asked him what would be the first thing he told Elena and he joked it would be how he was sorry for killing Bonnie. It was just more in their set of bickering, he basically implied he could kill her because she annoyed him. But I`m thinking if Kai had threatened her, Damon would have been just as quick to defend Bonnie.

To me, it`s the same mindset that had them holding hands in the Season 5 Finale in the first place. Back then they figured they were dying along with the Other Side and neither wanted to do so alone. Now they are semi-not-dead? Still neither wants to be alone. It`s more than that, though, as I doubt very much Bonnie would have taken, say, Silas along for the ride. Damon counts as a "friendly face". He is a member of their little gang and so is Bonnie, that`s why they can`t quit each other in this past world. He drives her away (and most likely regrets it every single time) and she runs off and comes back every single time. Meaning they draw more comfort than misery from each other`s company.

Noone wants to be alone and it would be indeed a hellish nightmare to be so - hey, Grams, wasn`t this about giving Bonnie peace? she wouldn`t have known Damon would come along for companionship - but if the benefits didn`t far outweigh the grief, they`d never stay together.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aeryn13

slayer2 · October 18, 2014

Ah! That makes sense then. Thanks Aeryn13 !

Shanna · October 19, 2014

Don't comment that often on this show. But I will say this, if Bamon has a hint of anything more than friendship I will puke in my mouth. I hope the actors are just teasing/kidding when they say romantic Bamon.... Could have happened earlier, but it didn't. Let's just leave at that. It would be gross now and I like Bonnie waaaayyyy too much. Also I am enjoying their slightly antagonistic banters where they take turn being the childish one. I am finally back to watching this show every week as opposed to every 2 months. Don't ruin it show!

I have never thought too much about Bonnie and Damon romantically, although I massively enjoy the way they play off each other and would love if this thing ends with a real and strong friendship between in the way they kind of tried to do Stefan Caroline. (Although I can't see Damon refusing to answer calls from Bonnie even when they were only frenemies or whatever but that's just Stefan).

But now I am kind of half picturing a world where Damon and Bonnie were dating and Stefan and Caroline are dating. Elena's reaction to that would be entertaining I'm sure!

ladyrott · October 21, 2014

I am picturing Bonnie and Damon going though multiple "times" trying to get home. We are seeing them stuck in the 90s....I want to see Damon rocking a Members Only Jacket and a "tail" in the 80s. This could be fun. LOL

slayer2 · October 21, 2014

I'd like to see them going through multiple hells like Sam and Dean. Badass Bonnie and Badass Damon would be sick!

PinkRibbons · November 2, 2014

In regards to Damon and Stefan's relationship, I'm wondering if in the next few episodes, we're going to see a more protective, big-brotherish side of Damon than before. He and Stefan seem to have buried the hatchet quite a while ago but IMO there hasn't been nearly enough scenes of the brothers together to show how their relationship has evolved.

Damon has just spent four months being Bonnie's sole companion and, in some ways, protector, and it seems to have softened him. Knowing this show, it'll be a while before Elena is de-compulsioned, leaving Damon to focus on the other important person in his life, Stefan (I mean, hopefully while also trying to save Bonnie). He's got an idea already of how badly Stefan was doing without him, and I don't think he'll hold Stefan's giving up and trying to move on against him (really, the only way Stefan could have saved him was by getting the Gemini Coven to help, and Stefan did in fact contact them with no apparent results. There's a good chance they had no idea that anybody else had landed in Kai's hell).

What I'd like to see is Damon at least telling off Alaric (if not Elena as well) for not taking care of his brother in his absence. Stefan is the oldest in the group, but he's also 17. Everyone expected too much of him and, aside from Caroline, didn't seem to want to give him any room or time to grieve.

Edited November 2, 2014 by PinkRibbons

Aeryn13 · November 2, 2014

Actually, I could foresee resentment within the group now because Stefan got his brother back (and Alaric his friend) but Jeremy (and Caroline, maybe even Elena) don`t get Bonnie back. As for telling others off, Damon doesn`t know what went down and Stefan IS an adult so this is not something I would be interested in seeing.

I would hope for some positive scenes between the brothers now, just spending time together but I think they will be wrapped up in the current vampire hunter problem. Stefan handing Enzo over was extremely shortsighted but at least the guy won`t easily crack under tortured but Ivy will immediately blab everything. This is Stefan`s problem right now and ith Enzo-connection also Damon`s and I think they will be a united front.

At the very least, it will be good that Stefan will be able to explain the Elena-factor and we won`t have to get the requisite drama where Damon walks in on a situation with no idea.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Aeryn13

slayer2 · November 2, 2014

I was thinking earlier about Damon as a romantic. It seems he is far more so than anyone else on the show. He spent over a hundred years chasing down one woman for Pete's sake and I couldn't help but see the parallels between him and Spike on BTVS. Spike started off like Rupert Giles and ended up like The Ripper (Giles and Stefan fall under this) What if underneath Damon really is Katherine's "Sweet, innocent Damon."

He settled into domesticity pretty quickly with Bonnie and honestly I don't think I've ever seen him look more comfortable or more human than in those scenes. Unlike Stefan all Damon has wanted for almost 200years is to find a "nice" (read challenging) girl and settle down with her. Stefan just happened on Elena but Damon was actively looking for who he believed was the love of his life for a long time.

His relationship with Bonnie took no time at all to transition into an old married couple, a role he was very comfortable in. So I wondered, isn't that what Damon has wanted all along? Someone to make shopping lists with, cheat on Monopoly and bicker with. Someone who keeps him on his toes and challenges him. I mean say what you want about their time on the other side but Damon was never bored.

He seemed pretty resigned to spend the rest of his days (however long that may have been) picking out sunglasses and making pancakes that even when he thought Bonnie killed the only chance they had of getting out of there he really wasn't that upset. Perhaps what he found on the other side was what he was searching for all along. Someone who would never leave him but call him on his bullshit, someone who would snipe at him but defend him to the death. It makes more and more sense to me if that's the case.

Edited November 2, 2014 by slayer2

Carrie Ann · November 3, 2014

I can see this perspective, and it's definitely why the Bamon people won me over to their side after the finale last year. I never understood that ship because I didn't see what was in it for Bonnie, and also because Damon was so dismissive of her and I don't like that dynamic, personally. But I did like seeing her dish it back to him, and I do think that's better for him than the alternative--a person who pays lip service to having moral standards, but doesn't actually have the backbone to stand up to him or hold him accountable for anything.

The Damon that we have seen will regularly test boundaries, and Elena essentially proved to him in S4 and 5 that she has none. She will constantly redraw them in order to be with him. So Damon gets to do whatever the hell he wants, and Elena will make a sour face and then forgive him five minutes later, and he'll just do that awful thing again. Their relationship is unbalanced and toxic, and makes both of them worse people.

I don't actually expect Bonnie and Damon to ever be together romantically, but if they could be, I think it would be a much more balanced situation. Since we probably can't have that, I will settle for Elena and Damon both growing and becoming better people who aren't codependent before they are together again.

Mari · November 3, 2014

I can see this perspective, and it's definitely why the Bamon people won me over to their side after the finale last year. I never understood that ship because I didn't see what was in it for Bonnie, and also because Damon was so dismissive of her and I don't like that dynamic, personally. But I did like seeing her dish it back to him, and I do think that's better for him than the alternative--a person who pays lip service to having moral standards, but doesn't actually have the backbone to stand up to him or hold him accountable for anything.

. . .

I don't actually expect Bonnie and Damon to ever be together romantically, but if they could be, I think it would be a much more balanced situation. Since we probably can't have that, I will settle for Elena and Damon both growing and becoming better people who aren't codependent before they are together again.

Considering the two long-term (or what Damon thought would be long-term) relationships we've seen him have, Damon seems to prefer some drama in his romantic life--at least, if he's considering himself "in love".

I'd really like the friendship we saw develop to take off a little--his relationship with Alaric has always been an interesting one for me, and the snarky but reluctantly respectful and affectionate that happened in 1994 could grow into a good friendship, and frankly, I think Damon needs decent friends more than he needs the right girlfriend.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mari

slayer2 · November 3, 2014

I don't want Bonnie to be friend-zoned. I'm extra touchy because she's the only black character and simultaneously the only character that has only had one guy show an interest in her. I've always seen incredible chemistry in Damon and Bonnie and now knowing that they(Ian and Kat) have the same acting coach makes me want to see even more between them. Their scenes are infused with so many layers and it would be shame to relegate that to friend status.

I want Damon (and everyone frankly) to move on from irritating Elena and I want to see what he looks like in a relationship where he isn't someone's lap dog and where every single decision he makes doesn't revolve around them. Additionally I'd like to see Bonnie in a relationship that tests her goodness and brings out the grey colour in the character, I'm tired of her sacrificing herself for everyone and everything. What does Bonnie want, think, feel, hope for? I think these things are better explored through someone like Damon who becomes heavily invested in the "goals" of his lovers. Plus on a shallow note, it'd be hot.

I don't actually expect Bonnie and Damon to ever be together romantically, but if they could be, I think it would be a much more balanced situation.

Agreed and balance is what this show needs, very much so. Edited November 3, 2014 by slayer2

Mari · November 3, 2014

I don't want Bonnie to be friend-zoned. I'm extra touchy because she's the only black character and simultaneously the only character that has only had one guy show an interest in her.

I guess I came at it from a slightly different perspective. The thing is, unless one of the performers decide to leave the show, I have trouble seeing them move away from Elena/Salvatore of the season (most likely Damon, based on age of the show and current trajectory) being the show's endgame.

While Bonnie and Damon would be a very interesting and attractive couple, unless I'm completely wrong about the show's long-term story telling plans, that reduces Bonnie to being a placeholder until Elena and Damon are dramatically reunited before the end of the series.

Personally, I'd rather they developed a relationship for her that didn't come with a (likely) built-in expiration date.

Goldmoon · November 3, 2014

While we are at it, let's develop a relationship for her that doesn't involve boring Jeremy. I don't like her with any of the regulars, but I would love to See Alaric with one of the three "girls," Elena, Carolyn, or Bonnie. And since Elena is kind of his stepdaughter, let him be with one of the others.

Carrie Ann · November 3, 2014

I would accept Bonnie and Matt, if we can't have Bamon in the long-term. I liked that 3rd season episode where Matt drowned himself in the pool in order to see Vicki, and Bonnie used good ol' CPR to bring him back to life. They were sweet together.

blixie · November 5, 2014

Bonnie and Matt have always had it going on, from S1 forward so much chemistry! I was really irked when they put her with Jeremy instead of him, and went with messed up maybe for real thing with Caroline/Damon. Dating Elena's ex would have created as much drama as dating her brother would have been less weird.

slayer2 · November 6, 2014

I'm holding out for Bamon however hopeless because the story and seeds have been planted there unlike with Matt/Bonnie, they got as far as that pool rescue and stopped. Pity they didn't give them Matt's storyline with Caroline (the climbing through the window and all that) Caroline seems to get everyone on this show while Bonnie gets no one or Jeremy (which is basically the same thing) it's bullshit.

I must say though, Matt has been looking even more gorgeous than usual. Pudding Pop indeed (if you're out there TWoP recapper). He was completely unrecognizable to me last episode though. Maybe his face has gotten thinner and his hair lighter or something.

Carrie Ann · November 26, 2014

From the 608 episode thread, regarding why we have to return the focus of the show to Delena:

Because they are hugely popular and probably the #1 reason a good majority of the audience tunes in?

Hey, I'm all for an Elena and Damon break, but I think a lot of people are reading that scene incorrectly. Damon was already searching for Bonnie without her incentive. Her asking him to do it doesn't mean it just occurred to him. I read that scene as her just asking him as a reinforcement for what he was already doing.

I disagree that Delena are the #1 reason "a good majority" of the audience watches. I think they are popular online and with younger viewers especially, but the ratings have been steadily tanking since they got together and the show focused on them. So I'm not willing to grant that that's a reason the show should so quickly return its focus to that relationship. If anything, that relationship helped take the show down in the ratings, as well as creatively and critically. But I understand that fandom is loud and aggressive with the EPs.

As for the second part: I know that Damon was searching for Bonnie independently. We all know that. Elena doesn't see it that way because she's awful. And the show doesn't know how to write their relationship without this dynamic--where Elena is the Good One (compared to Damon ONLY, let's be clear), and Damon is the fuck-up who tries to be Better For Her (sometimes, when it's convenient for him). So they're reframing what's actually happening on screen, in order to shoehorn it into their shitty relationship dynamic. That's why this is disappointing. If they need to revisit Delena, I was so hoping they would do something different with it, but they don't seem to know how to write for Damon and Elena together without weakening them both, so.

Honestly, in my ideal but still realistic world, Elena would have gotten her memories back but decided not to be with Damon for awhile anyway, because she received some clarity during her time in Lala Land and realized that she wants to be more than just a Vampire Girlfriend for the rest of her life. Then Damon goes on his quest to find Bonnie, because she is HIS friend, because he cares about her, because he misses her. Elena could be aware of what he's doing, but not directly involved. Damon gets Bonnie back; they are best friends. They cling to each other, having both been abandoned by their SOs, but yeah, because we can't have nice things, they don't get together.

Eventually, Bonnie moves on with some non-Jeremy dude, and Damon and Elena get back together someday. Both of them have changed and learned something about themselves and each other in that time. Namely, Damon has learned that he values and needs relationships outside of his love life. He doesn't need that one relationship as desperately as he used to. He knows how to live and be a "good" person without that as a motivating factor, and that person doesn't exert undue influence over his entire life and being. Elena, similarly, has realized that she can live without Damon. She wants to do something with her lifetimes. She cares about her friends and family again, and won't sacrifice those relationships for Damon anymore. She has her leverage back in the relationship, because she knows she can and will leave him if necessary, so she can enforce her expectations. And he has his leverage back, because he can be a good person with or without her. Their dynamic is balanced.

I highly doubt we're gonna get some scene where Damon articulates "I'm gonna bring Bonnie back for my girl!" Mostly because I don't think he's under the impression that when Bonnie comes back she'll counsel Elena to return to Damon. She was always pretty reticent in her belief that Damon was bad for Elena. They may have bonded in 1994, but I'm not going to assume her view on that has changed. I'd rather they didn't make Damon and Bonnie best friends when she returns, but rather two people who know each others bullshit and can still work together against things trying to destroy them. In other words, still regard each other with caution but respect.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if something approaching your first sentence actually did happen on the show, because he's said something just like that a million times before, but even if he doesn't, this is what Elena's reframe has done. It's made it so that this is implied, and I wish it weren't. But to your second point, I don't think he'd be bringing Bonnie back so she can tell Elena to be with him. In the past, when he's done things like this "for his girl," the implication has been that he's doing it to make Elena happy, or right some wrong that he's done to her. But regardless, I do think Bonnie's feelings about him have clearly changed in their four months together. And she definitely wanted him to get back home, and that included being with Elena, so I would be surprised if she is against their relationship anymore (except because she's into him herself, of course, which is the truth that exists in my heart and in the fanfic I will read to avoid canon).

kmariee · November 26, 2014

I disagree that Delena are the #1 reason "a good majority" of the audience watches. I think they are popular online and with younger viewers especially, but the ratings have been steadily tanking since they got together and the show focused on them. So I'm not willing to grant that that's a reason the show should so quickly return its focus to that relationship. If anything, that relationship helped take the show down in the ratings, as well as creatively and critically. But I understand that fandom is loud and aggressive with the EPs.

I agree about the ratings and quality, had been in a steady decline in S4 & S5 but it has vastly improved this season. The thing is when Stefan and Elena were THE couple in S1 & S2 (S3 didn't really have a central couple) their relationship (and their relationship problems) didn't over power the show. However with Damon and Elena their relationship drama was in EVERY EPISODE last season it seems. So it's like if you want them to be together then just put them together so we can move on and not have to dissect their relationship drama all the time. I mean do the Damon and Elena shippers really enjoy the constant obstacles they put between them or would they like them to just be happy and in love?

Also in regards to putting two characters together because that's what the largest amount of fans want aren't the Klaus/Caroline shippers one of the largest (and most vocal) groups out there? I mean there not even on the same show anymore and there's been no mention from either character about the other so far this year. I know it's different circumstances because Caroline isn't the main heroine and Klaus was so well liked he got his own spinoff but if the writers really wanted to they could have moved Caroline to the Originals. But they didn't because that doesn't make sense for her character.

Mostly because I don't think he's under the impression that when Bonnie comes back she'll counsel Elena to return to Damon. She was always pretty reticent in her belief that Damon was bad for Elena. They may have bonded in 1994, but I'm not going to assume her view on that has changed. I'd rather they didn't make Damon and Bonnie best friends when she returns, but rather two people who know each others bullshit and can still work together against things trying to destroy them. In other words, still regard each other with caution but respect.

I don't know about that, she asked him "What's the first thing you're going to tell Elena when you see her?" and he did say (after you know sassing her) he would tell her how much he loves her. I think Bonnie respects Damon's love for Elena and she would tell her that he loves her and that there's hope for him to be a better man. I mean has Bonnie ever been anti-DE? I know Caroline hated the idea of the two of them together but I felt like Bonnie just sort of didn't care or was just like "whatever makes Elena happy."

I disagree about Bonnie and Damon not being friends when she comes back. Sure they won't be best friends in the sense that Stefan and Caroline are best friends (despite their current complications) but what they have goes beyond having respect but caution with one another. I just feel like if that were the case Bonnie wouldn't have sacrificed herself so Damon could go back. Sure Bonnie is the queen of self-sacrifice but she only does it for the people she truly cares about, her friends and family.

Edited November 26, 2014 by kmariee

blixie · November 26, 2014

I know that Damon was searching for Bonnie independently. We all know that. Elena doesn't see it that way because she's awful. And the show doesn't know how to write their relationship without this dynamic--where Elena is the Good One (compared to Damon ONLY, let's be clear), and Damon is the fuck-up who tries to be Better For Her (sometimes, when it's convenient for him). So they're reframing what's actually happening on screen, in order to shoehorn it into their shitty relationship dynamic.

I honestly don't know IF that that IS what they are doing, it felt very Dalena troll-y to me, that whole scene, and I felt like Nina as Elena was very much Elena Classic before that scene, though I ALSO see why it read as typical Vamp Elena writing in which absolutely everything must be re-contextualized to be about HER.

OTOH, Bonnie IS her best friend, so I would never want to see her indifferent to Team Supernatural's attempts to rescue her, all of them should be fighting to get her back it's about time they fought FOR her and instead of using her as their tool de jour every time they need a witch.

Of course Elena's line about how she's having issues sorting out her feelings, therefore she only needs to get involved in finding Bonnie, to be her relationship counselor was pretty fucking obnoxious. Yes Bonnie is in 1994 with a five star psychotic murdered counting the days till she can help Elena with her romantic and existential queries. RME.

CaughtOnTape · November 26, 2014

2 things....because people are seeming to pick things out of what I posted to fit their arguments.

First, I never said the show needed to return to a Delena focus. Someone stated they didn't understand why the show couldn't move away from them for a time and I responded. That's part of the reason why moving discussions from thread to thread is counter-intuitive. You don't get to see what led up to the discussion in order for someone to respond that way.

Second, I didn't say Damon and Bonnie shouldn't be friends. Of course they will be. It's obvious. After Bonnie's sacrifice for him to come home to Elena it's fairly clear that Damon now holds her in the highest regard. As he should. I said that they didn't need to be best friends. I don't need them hanging out together, I don't need Damon seeking her out for advice or vice versa. It would ring untrue and ridiculous. If viewers are annoyed that Elena and Alaric absolved him of every shitty thing he ever did then it would be just as bad if Bonnie did it, considering up until 4 months ago she only tolerated him because her friends did. This show could right it's past wrongs if they left Damon and Bonnie as a reluctant team who are both very aware of their past concerning each other. Then they could build on that as they move through their relationship until it does ring true that Bonnie could move past Damon's past.

And contrary to what people think and what the show has told us considering Damon's dialogue in the preview, I don't think she entirely sacrificed herself just to send him home for him. She did it for Elena. Because for all she knows, Elena is still hopelessly in love with him. So in that view....she did do it for someone she loves.

Bitterswete · November 26, 2014

I disagree that Delena are the #1 reason "a good majority" of the audience watches. I think they are popular online and with younger viewers especially, but the ratings have been steadily tanking since they got together and the show focused on them.

I think the ratio of TVD viewers watching for Delena has probably gone up. Because a lot of viewers who weren't watching for Delena aren't watching anymore. Which isn't really a good thing.

Focusing on the 'ship would probably please the Delena fans still watching. But it's not going to do much for viewers who are still watching but don't care for (or downright can't stand) Delena. And it's not going to win back former viewers who were never into that 'ship in the first place.

If anything, I think good word-of-mouth would do more for the ratings than them starting to focus on Delena again.

The thing is when Stefan and Elena were THE couple in S1 & S2 (S3 didn't really have a central couple) their relationship (and their relationship problems) didn't over power the show.

I remember that being one of the things the show was praised for early on. In fact, I remember many a comment on other boards with people hoping and praying that the show would keep doing things the way they were, and wouldn't get consumed by relationship drama.

Actually, there are a lot of things I remember the show getting praised for not doing, only for them to turn around and do those things. It's been kind of fascinating to watch. In a very frustrating way.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Bitterswete

kmariee · November 27, 2014

First, I never said the show needed to return to a Delena focus. Someone stated they didn't understand why the show couldn't move away from them for a time and I responded. That's part of the reason why moving discussions from thread to thread is counter-intuitive. You don't get to see what led up to the discussion in order for someone to respond that way.

Sorry you're right it does get taken out of context but I think it did have to move only because it's no longer dealing with the episode. My main thing is I get that Damon and Elena are a big draw and they have a huge online pull but it's like the writers shouldn't allow that to hold them back from either taking a break from them or putting them together WITHOUT the relationship nonsense every episode. I would gladly taken relatively happy Delena dating/working together for a least 5 episodes. It's like just pick something to do with them! I'm holding out hope that by the mid-season finale they pick a direction with these two.

Of course Elena's line about how she's having issues sorting out her feelings, therefore she only needs to get involved in finding Bonnie, to be her relationship counselor was pretty fucking obnoxious. Yes Bonnie is in 1994 with a five star psychotic murdered counting the days till she can help Elena with her romantic and existential queries. RME.

This is what ruined the whole scene for me in regards to Elena. Just WHY does she have to make it sound like the reason she wants Damon to help her find Bonnie is so she can ask her if Damon is a good boyfriend. This girl is your best friend that should be reason enought to save her. The line just leaves a bad taste in my mouth no matter how much I try to look at it objectively.

If viewers are annoyed that Elena and Alaric absolved him of every shitty thing he ever did then it would be just as bad if Bonnie did it, considering up until 4 months ago she only tolerated him because her friends did. This show could right it's past wrongs if they left Damon and Bonnie as a reluctant team who are both very aware of their past concerning each other. Then they could build on that as they move through their relationship until it does ring true that Bonnie could move past Damon's past.

I do find it kind of infuriating how this show likes to just "sweep under the rug" a lot of the terrible things some characters have done on this show, especially to other characters on this show. Like did Stefan ever apologize for his whole Ripper phase to Elena, or at least the Wickery Bridge incident? I do still think though that Bonnie sees Damon in a new light, when he said "I know there's a million other people..." and she says "not exactly" I just think there's a look in Bonnie's eyes that says she really has grown to consider Damon a friend and someone she does care about. Either way I just don't want the show to drop the connection these two clearly have when she returns to the present. If it's over something like their mutual desire to take down Kai that's totally fine but it needs to be explored further, I want to see them actively working together because of this new bond they have.

slayer2 · November 27, 2014

I have to chime in and disagree about Delena fans being the majority of the show watchers. They really aren't, I in my infinite attempts to focus on all the things that aren't important in life, have been on a lot of tumblr pages and twitter and such and there are two major ships for Damon (not including slash) and two major ships for Elena. Delena and Bamon and Stelena and Delena. Discounting Stelena fans is a gross mistake and then as in those poor Smallville sufferers there are those (and this is me on Arrow) who don't give fucks about ships and just watch hoping for a good show.

Edited November 27, 2014 by slayer2

Aeryn13 · November 27, 2014

Apart from being convoluted for plot reasons - Damon could have easily fed Bonnie his blood or grabbed her quickly while they both went through, it`s called super-speed but then the show has a pretty big precedent for that because I will never understand how Stefan with superstrength and speed couldn`t have saved both Elena and Matt from drowning in time, like he couldn`t have carried both to the surface at once, urgh - I think Bonnie sacrificed herself because she apparently believed, she wouldn`t make it, i.e. she would die soon. So she wanted one of them at least to go home and back to their loved one.

So, frankly, I could very well see her being annoyed that she does all that to give at least Damon a happy-end and what do you know, Elena went and erased him. If I were Bonnie, I`d throw up my hands in disgust, all "why do I even bother". In that vein alone, it would make sense to me that she would counsel Elena more in the Delena direction than otherwise.

And I do believe she sees Damon in a friendly manner now. At the very least she believes in the possibility of redemption for him. Ignoring past actions is also something the entire gang does and out of all of them, Damon was usually the one most held responsible. Which is a low bar and was partly due to him being the least stable and the one most prone to go really bonkers under emotional duress but there is also something of a double standard, I feel.

For instance, had it been Damon killing the twelve witches in the third Expression triangle massacre to prevent Bonnie`s death or had it been Damon killing Luke to get Liv to cooperate, the reactions likely would have been shocked outrage and "Damon, how could you do that, you and your murderous ways". Since it was Caroline, it was literally forgotten the second after it happened. Which is show hypocrisy. The same as when Emotionless!Elena got all righteous to Elijah about Kaherine killing her brother allthewhile it wasn`t long ago, she had happily participated in killing Elijah`s brother. Do the writers not see this?

Also, I agree about Elena framing the getting Bonnie back as a) her idea and b) for the purpose of her relationship with Damon. A much better and cuter line would have been something like "hey, is there room for one more on your Save Bonnie-team because I`d like to join up."

Carrie Ann · November 28, 2014

Also, I agree about Elena framing the getting Bonnie back as a) her idea and b) for the purpose of her relationship with Damon. A much better and cuter line would have been something like "hey, is there room for one more on your Save Bonnie-team because I`d like to join up."

Yes, or even sort of ending the line of discussion about their relationship, and then asking what she could do to help. So many ways they could have accomplished the same thing without those connotations. Oh well. Maybe the writers of the next eps will do better, and I'll be able to write off that scene as an anomaly. I do agree that this season is more enjoyable than the last two.

kmariee · November 28, 2014

For instance, had it been Damon killing the twelve witches in the third Expression triangle massacre to prevent Bonnie`s death or had it been Damon killing Luke to get Liv to cooperate, the reactions likely would have been shocked outrage and "Damon, how could you do that, you and your murderous ways". Since it was Caroline, it was literally forgotten the second after it happened. Which is show hypocrisy. The same as when Emotionless!Elena got all righteous to Elijah about Kaherine killing her brother allthewhile it wasn`t long ago, she had happily participated in killing Elijah`s brother. Do the writers not see this?

Yeah but I think a lot of that comes from the reason(s) that Damon murders as opposed to why Caroline did it. In both instances Caroline killed to save her best friend who was about to be killed or was just killed and she was desperate to bring him back. Also Caroline was visibly very upset about killing the witches and felt terrible about it so they at least didn't completely ignore it. With Luke they probably just dropped it because he come back to life, would have been nice to at least see a scene between him and Caroline where she apologized though. However you are right that Damon gets called out the most for his villianous behavior even though Stefan can be just as bad sometimes. I think the real problem with the show's characters is life is expendable if it isn't someone who's your friend or family, and I think that ALL the characters are guilty of this. And if Damon gets reprimanded the most Elena by far gets reprimanded the least.

So, frankly, I could very well see her being annoyed that she does all that to give at least Damon a happy-end and what do you know, Elena went and erased him. If I were Bonnie, I`d throw up my hands in disgust, all "why do I even bother". In that vein alone, it would make sense to me that she would counsel Elena more in the Delena direction than otherwise.

Now all I can picture is when Bonnie comes back and finds out Elena erased Damon she just friggin snaps! I want her to just tell everyone off and that the deus-ex-machina will no longer be in service for them.

Aeryn13 · November 28, 2014

Yeah but I think a lot of that comes from the reason(s) that Damon murders as opposed to why Caroline did it. In both instances Caroline killed to save her best friend who was about to be killed or was just killed and she was desperate to bring him back.

But I do believe if he had made those kills with basically the same motivations, he still would have been reprimanded in some way whereas Caroline wasn`t. Which means it isn`t the action itself that is condemned but the perpetrator. I know Damon brings a different kind of history with him than Caroline when it comes to immoral acts but I always find it hypocritical when the show basically says that a deeply immoral act, taken by itself, is either fully okay or heinous depending on who commited it.

Killing Luke, I get the motivation for the gang. I would have gotten it from everybody. If Damon had done it to bring his brother back, it wouldn`t be any better or worse than Caroline doing it to bring her friend back. It`s even the same person. Same if Elena had done it or Jeremy or was anybody else left? Matt? But it would have been fucked up for each of them, Damon no worse and Caroline no better than any of them. And with Luke, Caroline wasn`t even the slightest bit sorry, she was basically going "ha, in your face, Liv". As Damon probably would have been, too.

I think the real problem with the show's characters is life is expendable if it isn't someone who's your friend or family, and I think that ALL the characters are guilty of this. And if Damon gets reprimanded the most Elena by far gets reprimanded the least.

That`s true, they all have a tribal mentality unlike anything I have ever seen. And even with that there is a hierarchy with Elena clearly at the top. She is the saintified one, the one who needs to be protected and shielded above all. It`s not even that she asks for it, well, lately she might. But the other tribe members pretty much willingly fall on their swords for her. With the charge led whoever Salvatore brother is her beau.

I also think because she is considered so special, the very idea of calling her out on stuff they might call out each other for (at least minimally) wouldn`t enter their minds. That Damon even did so much as make a sarcastic snap about her erasing their relationship was unusual in my eyes. She is pretty sacrosanct to him.

Stefan has only moved away from this mindset of seeing her as a Madonna once he truly seemed to fall out of romantic love with her. I liked his bitterness outbreak even better when she pontificated to him about healthy coping mechanisms for grief and he jus had it. He treated her as a friend then, not a romantic love and that gave him a certain power in the relationship back. A dignity that is not allowed to whoever will be her current beau.

This Liam guy can consider himself lucky because I never got that she even like-liked him. She was somewhat impressed with the good boy/hero image but the relationship was framed as "good for me". So any exchangeable nice guy with good prospects would have done. But personal sparks and chemistry? At least with Aaron I saw a tiny bit though not exactly romantic either.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Aeryn13

kmariee · November 29, 2014

That`s true, they all have a tribal mentality unlike anything I have ever seen. And even with that there is a hierarchy with Elena clearly at the top. She is the saintified one, the one who needs to be protected and shielded above all. It`s not even that she asks for it, well, lately she might. But the other tribe members pretty much willingly fall on their swords for her. With the charge led whoever Salvatore brother is her beau.

This reminds me of what Katherine said once when she saw that Elena had turned off her humanity and said "So sad for the boys though, their special snowflake of human frality is gone" and it's so on point. It's like they just refuse to see her as anything but the sweet human girl from the beginning of the series to - honestly - the selfish monster she is today.

I also think because she is considered so special, the very idea of calling her out on stuff they might call out each other for (at least minimally) wouldn`t enter their minds. That Damon even did so much as make a sarcastic snap about her erasing their relationship was unusual in my eyes. She is pretty sacrosanct to him.

Stefan has only moved away from this mindset of seeing her as a Madonna once he truly seemed to fall out of romantic love with her. I liked his bitterness outbreak even better when she pontificated to him about healthy coping mechanisms for grief and he just had it. He treated her as a friend then, not a romantic love and that gave him a certain power in the relationship back. A dignity that is not allowed to whoever will be her current beau.

Damon's actually made three comments about her erasing her memories and one of them wasn't even sarcastic, he was genuinely angry that she erased him because he said no matter how much pain he was in he would never do that. I do think he's starting to reach his breaking point with her though. I honestly feel if she doesn't just make a decision one way or the other about their relatioship he's going to tell her back off, as he should.

The scene where Stefan told Elena that she erased Damon is one of my favorite scenes. You just saw when he finally had enough of her self-delusion, he knew what he was doing wasn't heatlhy but he wasn't going to let the queen of bad grieving lecture him. Stefan doesn't treat her like that special snowflake anymore and it's really great to see. However, I do think Damon has always called Elena out on her crap a bit more than Stefan ever did. He seemed veritably appalled at her apathy to the fact that he had been murdering a family for 50 years as revenge. Good for Damon.

Although maybe that is the root of the problem with the Salvatores when it comes to Elena, she never really seemed to care when she discovered they were mass murdering psychos. So why should they look at her as anything but good and pure if that's how she treats them?

Edited November 29, 2014 by kmariee

Aeryn13 · November 29, 2014

However, I do think Damon has always called Elena out on her crap a bit more than Stefan ever did. He seemed veritably appalled at her apathy to the fact that he had been murdering a family for 50 years as revenge.

I do think at first such a thing goes against their image of her as the "pure one" but then they tend to see it as her being limitless in her loving forgiveness. That she "feels too much/cares too much/loves too much". And while they might consider themselves undeserving of such grace, they crave it nonetheless.

Damon did call her out on her penchant to make excuses for those she loves, especially him last Season. Which, I think, he was right about. Just not sure he saw that her tendencies of denial also work towards herself. Maybe more than towards others.

I always thought Elena likes to see herself as the good one, the pure and forgiving one. She needs that self-image and has a hard time acknowledging darkness in herself or others. I mean, when Stefan had amnesia and she brought him up to speed on their relationship, she basically claimed his murderous past or days of Ripperdom were never the problem. Now okay, it would unfair to say that they were root of destroying their relationship but it`s not like they contributed to nothing. No matter how much Elena pretended to forget.

Stefan IMO initially sought a redemption in some way through loving her and most especially getting her love. If the good, sweet human girl could love him, he could be good enough for her and be redeemed. Yada yada.

With Damon it`s harder to say. I`m not sure he chased redemption with such conscious thought. He was just very aware what was expected of him to remain in her good graces. And in all fairness, as long as he was happy and his temper didn`t have a chance to get the best of him, he was reasonably stable. Didn`t happen for very long stretches but some.

Elena on the other hand, I think it reinforced her image. Damon, the "darker" brother (debatable in an objective sense but for appearance sake) was "tamed" by her love, The reformed serial killer was like a kitten purring in her lap if/when she wanted.

There was once a scene back in Season 2, I think, when Caroline got napped by the werewolves, Elena was still human then and she was asking Damon to not be murderous pretty much. She used the soft voice and the doe eyes and the touching him gently. And he twitched and point blank told her to stop doing that, stop assuming he`d be the good guy if only SHE was the one asking. In response? She used more soft voice, doe eyes and gentle touching because IMO she knew her power over him. It wasn`t necessary that he pointed it out. And if she wanted to, she could always get him to crumble. Maybe short of any action involving personal danger to her.

I could see how power like that could be exhilerating, even subconsciously. Now I`ve no doubt there were other factors on why she fell for him, ironically because he allowed her to let her own darkness out a bit without feeling too bad or guilty about it but even partly taming someone like Damon would be a big cheque into the "I must be a good person if my love redeems even such sins" image. You wouldn`t want evidence to the contrary intrude then.

Of course, I always thought, since she got together with either Stefan and Damon, making judgments on their past-past, i.e. anything they did before she met them, would be ludicrous. With Stefan she knew later in their relationship he used to be a brutal killer whereas with Damon she knew right away but once she did? Learning new pieces and whom they killed specifically and why shouldn`t change the basic knowledge and that she decided to ignore it. So Damon killing the Augustine society and most of the Whitmore clan in past decades shouldn`t make a difference IMO but the aunt he did in WHILE already in a happy relationship with Elena? Different ballgame.

slayer2 · November 29, 2014

Somebody up thread was saying that unless you're part of the clique human life means next to nothing on this show and all are guilty of it. I have to agree, I haven't see such vampire supremacy since twilight. You get the feeling that the only one on this show (who no longer is) who truly valued humanity and human life was Rebekah. Gosh I miss her. Everyone seems happier and more confident once they've seen the fangier side of Sears.

Perhaps Alaric might be the exception, someone who truly values humans and humanity and was happy to walk amongst the people as a human being.

I feel like they use humanity and vampirism as an interloper as well. For Stelena the real trouble came not with Damon but with Vampirism and that is when their relationship fell apart. Similarly for Forwood when he became a hybrid. Poor lil' pudding pop Matt, still hopping for some Matt/Bonnie loving' I am.

KatWay · November 30, 2014

One thing I really really want from this show is just once I want one of Elena's love interests (Damon, preferably) to break up with her - not because he's not good enough for her, not because he needs to protect her, not because they're bad for each other, etc, but because maybe he realises that Elena can be a pretty awful person, and he's grown as much as he can within this relationship. She doesn't challenge him anymore, she just makes excuses, and all they do is turn a blind eye to everything else that doesn't go with what they want to see about each other. I would like Damon to say, maybe Elena isn't the one, just because she was my chance at Katherine 2.0. "this time I win the girl", maybe I could have a relationship better than this. And then Elena gets dumped. For ONCE. Not for her own freaking good, not because she's the specialest snowflake of them all, but because maybe she's just not all that.

lion10 · November 30, 2014

Somebody up thread was saying that unless you're part of the clique human life means next to nothing on this show and all are guilty of it. I have to agree, I haven't see such vampire supremacy since twilight. You get the feeling that the only one on this show (who no longer is) who truly valued humanity and human life was Rebekah. Gosh I miss her. Everyone seems happier and more confident once they've seen the fangier side of Sears.

Perhaps Alaric might be the exception, someone who truly values humans and humanity and was happy to walk amongst the people as a human being.

I feel like they use humanity and vampirism as an interloper as well. For Stelena the real trouble came not with Damon but with Vampirism and that is when their relationship fell apart. Similarly for Forwood when he became a hybrid. Poor lil' pudding pop Matt, still hopping for some Matt/Bonnie loving' I am.

I feel like the writers have recently been emphasizing the monstrosity of vampirism and the fact that for the average human, vampires are bad news. And the disdain and wariness witches have for them. So I feel like Matt is headed towards opposing the group and maybe keeping the anti-magic barrier up.

kmariee · November 30, 2014

Stefan IMO initially sought a redemption in some way through loving her and most especially getting her love. If the good, sweet human girl could love him, he could be good enough for her and be redeemed. Yada yada.

I think Stefan's relationship with Elena started because he wanted to be loved by the "good" Katherine. That's how he saw her, the sweet innocent version of his first love. I remember when Stefan was explaining to Lexi why he was with Elena (because she knew it was because she looked like Katherine) he said "Elena's warm and she's... she's kind, and she's caring, and she's selfless, and it's real." I also don't think Lexi really bought it, I know she died in that episode so we don't really know if she would have actually been "Team Stelena" she was more so "whatever makes you happy dude." Of course Lexi clearly thinks Caroline is good for Stefan because in the end she's all those things Stefan saw in human Elena.

With Damon it`s harder to say. I`m not sure he chased redemption with such conscious thought. He was just very aware what was expected of him to remain in her good graces. And in all fairness, as long as he was happy and his temper didn`t have a chance to get the best of him, he was reasonably stable. Didn`t happen for very long stretches but some.

I don't think Damon chased redemption I think he just wanted to be the one to "get the girl" for once. He wanted to be the one who was picked. In 2x01 he had Katherine tell him she never loved him it was only Stefan and then he had Elena tell him "it's always gonna be Stefan" even the Salvatore's father favored Stefan over Damon. I will say Damon's temper has been a lot better this season. I really hated how he flew off the rails last season after Elena dumped him after all the growth his character had gone through. It was very refreshing when this year after Elena rejected him because she erased her memories of him he didn't go on a murder spree, he just kinda hassled Alaric.

Elena on the other hand, I think it reinforced her image. Damon, the "darker" brother (debatable in an objective sense but for appearance sake) was "tamed" by her love, The reformed serial killer was like a kitten purring in her lap if/when she wanted.

I always like the analogy with Damon and Stefan that Damon is the good brother trying to be bad and Stefan is the bad brother trying to be good. The good in Damon is what Elena saw and she wanted to bring it out of him more often, she stated this a couple of times. Maybe its why she always wanted to excuse his bad behavior, because she knew he was just acting out and that deep down he was really good. I think vampirism makes all of these characters a malicious and toxic species (Stefan made a great speech about it in 5x21) it's just a matter of how much of their humanity they can continue to hold on to. I think that Damon held onto more of his humanity than he wants to admit whereas Stefan doesn't want to admit how much of his humanity he's lost.

In the end though I don't know if either brother should really end up with Elena. I think they both love/loved her and her being in their lives definitely helped improve the brother's relationship with one another but I just don't know if she could ever have a truly healthy relationship with either brother, and I think she's the problem.

She doesn't challenge him anymore, she just makes excuses, and all they do is turn a blind eye to everything else that doesn't go with what they want to see about each other. I would like Damon to say, maybe Elena isn't the one, just because she was my chance at Katherine 2.0. "this time I win the girl", maybe I could have a relationship better than this.

This would make me so happy. I'm still not sure if I'm Team Bamon romantically or just friendship but I think that Bonnie is someone who does challenges Damon. She will always call him out on his crap but she still sees the good in him and that he does feel remorse. I am however very much Team Steroline because she didn't forgive him for his crappy treatment of their friendship without a proper apology and an explanation as to why he pushed her away specifically. Could this show ever really go into an arc where Damon is dating Bonnie, Stefan is dating Caroline and Elena is single? I don't know that might be too much even for this show, but you never know...

Aeryn13 · November 30, 2014

I feel like the writers have recently been emphasizing the monstrosity of vampirism and the fact that for the average human, vampires are bad news. And the disdain and wariness witches have for them.

Well, witches are the worst beings in that fictional universe. Now with the Gemini coven, I think we are seeing that again despite members shown in a sympathetic light. But as a rule witches casting moral judgment on something means nothing to me within the show. It`s more obvious on the Originals but even on TVD, worst.fuckups.ever. And more monstrous than any other monsters so they can shove their disdain.

As for vampirism in general, I still think they convey little downsides to it. They are all eternal studs, they are not bothered by the sun, bloodlust seems a problem for noone anymore, the ability to compel yourself goods and compel away problems is just awesomely awesome and if you want to do some good, your superblood even cures all ills. If I had that choice, I would run, not walk to becoming one.

Alaric expressed happiness about being a human again and for the life of me, I could not truly understand why. I mean, I get why the character would probably react like it but intellectually I can not remotely understand it.

KatWay · November 30, 2014

Well I can see some downsides to vampirism, such as the fact that they all seem to be stuck in that petulant, selfish teenager phase where everything is a huuuge drama and you think about nobody but yourself and the people you like, but the show doesn't really seem to paint that picture intentionally nor call attention to it. These vamps are kind of pathetic, rehashing the same conflicts for centuries, with nobody actually experiencing any meaningful growth (or if they do, it's two steps forward, three steps back) because they don't have to. But the show seems to think they're all the coolest, most awesome being ever and everyone becomes more awesome as a vampire (not true, see also: Elena Gilbert) and has the best time EVAH.

It's all so very shallow and dumb - remember when Elena cried about wanting to be human, to experience life that way, to be changed by her experiences and growing older....yeah. Now it's all "we're hot and young 4ever yay".

Aeryn13 · November 30, 2014

Well I can see some downsides to vampirism, such as the fact that they all seem to be stuck in that petulant, selfish teenager phase

While this is true, this is a downside more for everyone else, not the vampire in question. And vampirism having negative consequences for the non-vampires, that is unquestionably so. Humans seem to be there to be fed upon, compelled and sometimes used for menial tasks. So I`d say on this show it`s humanity that has lots and lots of downsides. Vampirism, not so much.

GraceAnne · November 30, 2014

It's odd but I've never been a fan of any relationship Elena was a part of, friendships included. I understand she's the lead but her "special snowflake-ness" has always been a little much for me.

At first I believed I just didn't care for Nina Dobrev as an actress, however once they introduced Katherine that theory went out the window. Now I've have settled on the fact that Elena just bores me.

That`s true, they all have a tribal mentality unlike anything I have ever seen. And even with that there is a hierarchy with Elena clearly at the top. She is the saintified one, the one who needs to be protected and shielded above all. It`s not even that she asks for it, well, lately she might. But the other tribe members pretty much willingly fall on their swords for her. With the charge led whoever Salvatore brother is her beau.

I found this especially true with the killing Kol situation. I kept trying to figure why no one was like, "Uhhh, so we're gonna kill Kol (who is surprisingly the voice of reason in regards to Silas) and his whole blood line, to complete the hunters mark and ultimately get the cure for poor poor Elena who can't deal with being a monster... "

But killing all those vampires DOESN'T make you a monster?? For all you know they live in their own Mystic Falls, steal blood bags, have a mom as sheriff, and don't hurt a soul.

That was also why I enjoyed the scene between Stefan and Caroline talking about they were not that different from Klaus. I do so enjoy a little self awareness in my tv viewing.

DigitalCount · December 1, 2014

See, this right here is why I said that we need the next "villain" to be a group of youngish vampires from a small town who were friends with vampires from Kol's line and want revenge on the Gilberts. It might give them the wake-up call they need. I would love for them to suddenly realize that people aren't just collateral damage. Remember Bree?

Bitterswete · December 1, 2014

I always like the analogy with Damon and Stefan that Damon is the good brother trying to be bad and Stefan is the bad brother trying to be good.

Nah, I don't see it that way. It's more like Stefan is the brother who genuinely wants to be (and tries to be) a good person. And I don't think it was just him trying to live up to an image. I think there are some people who are just hard-wired to do the right thing (or try to as much as possible), and Stefan is one of those people.

But, of course, he's a vampire, and he's got a dark side, and those Ripper issues, so it makes trying to be a good person a lot more complicated. But that doesn't mean "good Stefan" isn't real.

Damon, on the other hand, never really cared about trying to be a good person. Even as a human, he seemed to be driven by his heart (and impulses). And if his heart wanted to do something that could be considered bad, so be it. He was probably going to do it anyway.

I think that while Stefan has tried to repress his dark side, Damon has tried to repress any feelings of guilt or remorse he might have over doing bad things. And I think he's been pretty successful at it for the most part, meaning I think he's done lots of bad things that he truly doesn't feel bad about. But there are hints that he feels guilt and remorse about more stuff than he'd like.

So I don't see Damon as the "good brother trying to be bad." He has been plenty bad over the years. But I think he's always been capable of being a better person. He just chose not to be a lot of the time.

kmariee · December 1, 2014

Nah, I don't see it that way. It's more like Stefan is the brother who genuinely wants to be (and tries to be) a good person. And I don't think it was just him trying to live up to an image. I think there are some people who are just hard-wired to do the right thing (or try to as much as possible), and Stefan is one of those people.

But, of course, he's a vampire, and he's got a dark side, and those Ripper issues, so it makes trying to be a good person a lot more complicated. But that doesn't mean "good Stefan" isn't real.

Don’t get me wrong I do believe Stefan is very much “the hero” in that he will always protect the people he cares about and sacrifice himself for the people he loves. But there’s a very dark side to Stefan that he tries to suppress and I think being “the hero” and being “the good brother” are his defense mechanisms to hide the sadistic part of him. You see glimpses of it even when Stefan is on the straight and narrow, like when he threatened John Gilbert to leave town. And when Stefan has no humanity he’s a sick f*ck, I mean Klaus said that’s why he wanted Stefan as his wingman he’s seen how he enjoys torturing people for fun (like making a man drink his wife’s blood.)

I do think “good Stefan” is real but I think since Stefan became a vampire there’s a sadistic part of him that’s deep below the surface that he knows if he let it would take over him completely. It’s like he said to Caroline if he lets himself enjoy it even a little bit he risks becoming the ripper.

*** Just wanted to add more about Stefan I remember last season when he had amnesia he was honestly a pretty big jerk. He didn’t seem to feel too much remorse when Damon told him about all the people he killed. He was pretty close to killing Jesse after Elena flirted and lead him on all day and then tells him “oh yeah I’m actually doing your brother now.” He literally said “what’s the point of being good?” I think that’s a big reason why Stefan keeps his journals he needs those memories to remember why he should be good.

Damon, on the other hand, never really cared about trying to be a good person. Even as a human, he seemed to be driven by his heart (and impulses). And if his heart wanted to do something that could be considered bad, so be it. He was probably going to do it anyway.

I think that while Stefan has tried to repress his dark side, Damon has tried to repress any feelings of guilt or remorse he might have over doing bad things. And I think he's been pretty successful at it for the most part, meaning I think he's done lots of bad things that he truly doesn't feel bad about. But there are hints that he feels guilt and remorse about more stuff than he'd like.

I don’t think Damon never cared about being a good person, him and Stefan were best friends when they were human so he must have been good to his brother. I think Stefan was the “golden boy” especially in his father’s eyes and Damon probably did things to anger his father on purpose because he hated that. Damon is definitely more driven by his heart and impulses than Stefan but that doesn’t make him bad. When Damon first became a vampire he hated it and resented what he was, he seemed appalled when he had to feed on people to survive. Then he met Sage and she kind of taught him how to enjoy it.

I just think Damon does bad things for a reason like he said “If you're going to be bad, be bad with a purpose or else you're not worth forgiving.” Like when he turned Bonnie’s Mom even though Stefan lost the coin toss, he’ll always do the bad thing to protect Stefan from having to do it. I think he does that because he knows the tight rope Stefan walks to continue to be good. And yes Damon does enjoy torturing people with a poker but he only does that to get information out of them (i.e. Mason and Kai.) He also does it to people who have either threatened him or someone he cares about.

In the end I don’t think either brother is really “good” they’re both serial killers and can just be complete dicks. I just think Damon is bad to stop people from seeing the good whereas Stefan is good to stop people from seeing the bad.

Edited December 1, 2014 by kmariee

GirlyGeek · December 2, 2014

I can see both sides of this coin with the brothers to a point. Neither is "good" or completely "bad" (though depending on which brother you side with more, I can see how fandom feels the need to label)

Stefan has always felt very "Angel-like" (from Buffy) to me, which I probably why I've always been biased toward liking Damon more. Stefan seemed like a vampire trying to be good, because the alternative was him having no control and him being very, very evil. It was a struggle for him, and always would be, and there was no middle ground for him. BUT, that made him too serious and (to me) his and Elena's relationship was rarely any fun. It was never more obvious than when Stefan was so much fun with Lexi (or later, with Caroline), but as soon as he and Elena were talking/in the same room together, everything about them was bogged down with a heaviness and angst. Their relationship always felt futile to me, headed nowhere.

Futile because she never wanted to be a vampire, so where could their relationship really go (and for how long?)
Futile because, even if she did want to be a vampire to be with him, he couldn't enjoy (for lack of a better term) being a vampire with her because of his limitations. And that was made evident when all he did was try and 'fix' her/make her like him when she did eventually turn.

In fact, after I did a good re-watch, it felt like Elena was always headed to Damon, or at least from very early on. Inevitable because of their connection and the futility of the Stefan/Elena relationship. It seemed like the minute Stefan went ripper, there was never any chance of Stelena working again. And certainly, after his Wickery Bridge craziness, it was over over, regardless of how much they tried to say otherwise.

Though I'm sure my opinions there aren't super popular ;)

On Stefan's side, though, I have always loved him with Caroline, and I don't necessarily mean romantically (though I could be on board with that as this season progresses). They have the ability to have fun, be honest, without a huge messy backstory to always gingerly step around. His scene with Caroline right after she turned, and him helping her become a good vampire, has always stuck out to me. It was Stefan's relationships with others in the cast that made me like his character (especially caroline, lexi, Damon); his relationship with Elena just never worked for me.

As for Damon, I spent a good amount of my re-watch trying to decipher when he had his humanity on (or off) in the first season or so, if it ever was off. He's hard to read because he does walk that line of good vs bad. But I think one of the most telling POVs was from Damon himself:
"When people see good, they expect good. And I don't want to have to live up to anyone's expectations." I think that was pretty honest from him, and if I was going to hold a therapy session I'm sure it'd be very connected to his father (and of course Elena).
I like that Damon has that unpredictable bad-boy side to him, because I like the potential for his story and character, and I always love a good redemption story. I like that he's pretty fiercely loyal once someone has made their way onto his short list of people he cares for, too.

I feel like Damon can be who he is with Elena and vice versa. Its not the same people they've always been, because people change and evolve. I like the progression of Damon this season; I will withhold my thoughts about Elena until she has all her memories back because she's not really Elena right now, IMO.

Now if the writer's would get onboard with not bogging down the Delena storyline, and let them be together and their relationship NOT the main angst of the day, I feel like this season could be great and the focus could go back to the big bad of the year.

Bitterswete · December 2, 2014

Don’t get me wrong I do believe Stefan is very much “the hero” in that he will always protect the people he cares about and sacrifice himself for the people he loves. But there’s a very dark side to Stefan that he tries to suppress and I think being “the hero” and being “the good brother” are his defense mechanisms to hide the sadistic part of him.

A lot of my favorite "good guy" (or "good girl") characters were once very bad, and still had dark sides that came out on occasion. So, to me, a character having a dark side and being a genuinely good person aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

So Stefan's dark side is definitely there. But the side that wants to do the right thing, and doesn't get a kick out of hurting innocent people, is also there, and also real.

He literally said “what’s the point of being good?”

Every character like this goes through these kinds of doubting periods, where they seem to wonder what's the point of trying to be good. Angel (since someone brought him up) actually said, once or twice, that he sometimes missed being evil. So it's a pretty common trope.

I don’t think Damon never cared about being a good person, him and Stefan were best friends when they were human so he must have been good to his brother.

I never said Damon never did good things or had genuine feelings for people. However, I got the sense that, if he really, really wanted something, or wanted to do something, he wouldn't let any moral issues or questions of conscience stop him. He'd do whatever he wanted to do and try really hard not to feel bad about it. Which doesn't automatically make someone a bad person, but does kind of shape their personality.

I just think Damon does bad things for a reason

Damon has done plenty of bad things without much more reason than he was upset about something. Or he was just being a dick.

Stefan has always felt very "Angel-like" (from Buffy) to me, which I probably why I've always been biased toward liking Damon more. Stefan seemed like a vampire trying to be good, because the alternative was him having no control and him being very, very evil. It was a struggle for him, and always would be, and there was no middle ground for him.

And I love Angel. Of course, I didn't really start to love him until he got his own show, where his character was really explored, and we got to see that he really wasn't all serious all of the time. (On BtVS, he was nowhere near as layered--or funny--as he became on Angel.)

All that being said, part of Angel's journey was accepting the dark part of himself, even learning he could use it without slipping over the edge and going all-out evil. He became much more relaxed with himself and his evil past. Which I always thought would be part of Stefan's journey.

BUT, that made him too serious and (to me) his and Elena's relationship was rarely any fun.

I really couldn't care less who Elena ends up with. (Beyond the impact her relationship-of-the-moment has on the show.) But I will say that I greatly enjoyed Stefan/Elena back in the day. I found their moments together sweet, fun, touching, etc. And I remember talking to others who felt the same way. So, when it comes to ships, a lot of this stuff is subjective.

GirlyGeek · December 2, 2014

And I love Angel. Of course, I didn't really start to love him until he got his own show, where his character was really explored, and we got to see that he really wasn't all serious all of the time. (On BtVS, he was nowhere near as layered--or funny--as he became on Angel.)
All that being said, part of Angel's journey was accepting the dark part of himself, even learning he could use it without slipping over the edge and going all-out evil. He became much more relaxed with himself and his evil past. Which I always thought would be part of Stefan's journey.

Oh yes, I should have clarified. I loved Angel after he was on his own show (and away from Buffy, lol) and I loved Angel the show and the way his character and their group was explored. Makes me want to re-watch actually...

As with Angel, I think that exploration should be a part of Stefan's journey as well. Its an important step for him to accept that part of himself.

Damon has done plenty of bad things without much more reason than he was upset about something. Or he was just being a dick.

As much of a HUGE Damon fan as I am... I have to agree. Sometimes he does stuff just to be a dick, or because his temper/frustration/inability to deal gets the best of him. He often has a good reason (or so he thinks), or is doing the hard/difficult thing because no one else can or will, but he doesn't always have that excuse.

kmariee · December 2, 2014

A lot of my favorite "good guy" (or "good girl") characters were once very bad, and still had dark sides that came out on occasion. So, to me, a character having a dark side and being a genuinely good person aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

So Stefan's dark side is definitely there. But the side that wants to do the right thing, and doesn't get a kick out of hurting innocent people, is also there, and also real.

I absolutely think that both sides are there for Stefan I just think the core of whom he is a very dark character. And I think he knows this and it’s why he tries to be “good brother” and sees himself as the hero. You can also see Stefan gets kind of tired being the hero all the time. I remember him mocking the whole “hero hair” thing with Damon and I think clearly this season he just gave up being the hero. Although when Damon returned he’s definitely started to come back to where he was before Damon died.

Look I LOVE Stefan he’s my favorite character and that’s because of all his flaws. The fact that he knows if he gives into his darkness just a little bit it will consume him. Stefan’s biggest problem is he lacks the concept of moderation, be it bloodlust or love he seems to do everything to a completely obsessive degree. And when he has something on his mind (like revenge) his morals tend to sway A LOT.

Damon has done plenty of bad things without much more reason than he was upset about something. Or he was just being a dick.

Yeah but what I mean by a reason is Damon being upset about something, he acts on impulse A LOT. Hey there may have been a time when Damon did something just to be a dick but I just can’t think of one, I feel like there was always (however twisted it might be) motivation to doing it.

And I love Angel. Of course, I didn't really start to love him until he got his own show, where his character was really explored, and we got to see that he really wasn't all serious all of the time. (On BtVS, he was nowhere near as layered--or funny--as he became on Angel.)

I never watched Angel until a couple of weeks ago I decided to watch the series on Netflix (just finished S1) and I could not believe how similar Stefan and Angel are! I’m holding out full judgment until I finish the series but I can see why Cindy from TWOP use to call him Angel-lite now for sure. I can also see similarities between the Buffy/Angel relationship and the Stefan/Elena one.

I really couldn't care less who Elena ends up with. (Beyond the impact her relationship-of-the-moment has on the show.) But I will say that I greatly enjoyed Stefan/Elena back in the day. I found their moments together sweet, fun, touching, etc. And I remember talking to others who felt the same way. So, when it comes to ships, a lot of this stuff is subjective.

I too use to really love the Stefan/Elena relationship but after S5 and that speech Elena made to Stefan about needing to know if HE was ok (after drowning for 3 months) so she wouldn’t feel bad about having the summer of her life being IN LOVE WITH HIS BROTHER I was done. I like that they’re friends now but if they ever got back together I would lose all respect for Stefan, I just don’t see how he could ever see her the way he used to.

Of course now that I can look at the Stefan/Elena relationship from past seasons more objectively I can see why people think they were boring. I think Stefan was always too concerned with protecting Elena (from himself and outside forces) and he could never truly let himself be happy.

I think Stefan’s true happiness lies with Caroline. I always enjoyed their friendship and I loved how Caroline always lightened Stefan up a bit, the scene with them at the party where he threw her over his shoulder was the most adorable thing ever! And as much as Stefan wants to (and does) protect Caroline he also knows she’s more than capable of handling herself. They think the world of each other and balance one another out. I’m very interested in their journey and I if there’s one pairing on this show I want to be “endgame” it’s them.

Bort · December 2, 2014

I think Stefan’s true happiness lies with Caroline. I always enjoyed their friendship and I loved how Caroline always lightened Stefan up a bit, the scene with them at the party where he threw her over his shoulder was the most adorable thing ever!

I don't remember this at all, in what episode did that happen?

kmariee · December 2, 2014

I don't remember this at all, in what episode did that happen?

4x16 when No Humanity Elena threw a party at the Salvatore House.

blixie · December 2, 2014

I too use to really love the Stefan/Elena relationship but after S5 and that speech Elena made to Stefan about needing to know if HE was ok (after drowning for 3 months) so she wouldn’t feel bad about having the summer of her life being IN LOVE WITH HIS BROTHER I was done.

See I can't take any of that seriously, to me that's not really Authentic Elena, no more than the Stefan who lied to her about the cure because...oh right they never bothered coming up with any good reason he needed to conceal the cure from her, because there was NO good reason, especially no reason that fit with Stefan's character up to that point. Plec completely assassinated Stefan's character in early S4 to to make Dalena seem plausible which wasn't even necessary.

I agree that Stefan has a dark side that is more pronounced, but that is ONLY because is belief in doing good and being good is the stark relief, and his inability to resolve that inner conflict, I think that was always the real root of why he couldn't be with Vampire Elena, which again had ZERO to do with Damon or her feelings for Damon. Season four made a hot mess of hash out of both leads, because Elena was hopped up on Sire Sauce which made Dalena entirely gross, and Stefan was made to look like a controlling dick who just couldn't accept that his girlfriend was in love with his brother. Though I will always savor this line to Elena: "This is what I look like when I'm not in love with you." So perfect so awesome.

My problem is that from the beginning, I was always primed for a Dalena relationship to happen, and while I always felt the chemistry was weirdly off with Dalena, while Katherine and Damon always smoked, I totally thought Elena, was allowed to go a little crazy, a little bad, a little bitchy, to indulge a wildness she never had before, and to explore whatever attraction bubbled between her and Damon. But I've never once believed she loved him or that she ever fell out of love with Stefan. I didn't think that meant they had to reunite for sure, but I would never buy Dalena as the forever true love/OTP of the show, not after witnessing and loving the far far superior Stelena.

it came back to the fact I think Damon is just not that interesting when he's with Elena, she brings nothing out of him and being with him has turned her into shallow shadow of her former self, and let's not even get into how crappy the show has been while they've been "in love". Damon and Elena are too fundamentally different, and Damon has never actually cared about anything that Elena loves or values, and he's actively harmed so many people she does love. Repeatedly. I enjoy the Damon that doesn't really give a shit about humanity, and I can enjoy a Damon who changes because he loves someone, but that isn't the story I got over the last two seasons and change, the most I've ever seen him change is in this storyline with Bonnie, and I hope that continues, but I'm sure Plec intends to play out this half assed epic retconned to helll Dalenalove bullshit until her last breath.

kmariee · December 2, 2014

See I can't take any of that seriously, to me that's not really Authentic Elena, no more than the Stefan who lied to her about the cure because...oh right they never bothered coming up with any good reason he needed to conceal the cure from her, because there was NO good reason, especially no reason that fit with Stefan's character up to that point. Plec completely assassinated Stefan's character in early S4 to to make Dalena seem plausible which wasn't even necessary.

I agree that Stefan has a dark side that is more pronounced, but that is ONLY because is belief in doing good and being good is the stark relief, and his inability to resolve that inner conflict, I think that was always the real root of why he couldn't be with Vampire Elena, which again had ZERO to do with Damon or her feelings for Damon. Season four made a hot mess of hash out of both leads, because Elena was hopped up on Sire Sauce which made Dalena entirely gross, and Stefan was made to look like a controlling dick who just couldn't accept that his girlfriend was in love with his brother. Though I will always savor this line to Elena: "This is what I look like when I'm not in love with you." So perfect so awesome.

I know a lot of people think S5 was TVD’s worst season but I really think it was S4. The mythology was all over the place, the stupid sire-bond, the characters were very OOC, like you said it was not kind to Stefan’s character and I think Caroline suffered a bit from being a bit too sanctimonious and judgy. However Stefan has always felt the need to keep secrets from people for really no reason. I thought it was kind of dumb when he didn’t want Damon to know he killed Enzo (mostly because Enzo basically did it to himself) and we still don’t really know why he didn’t tell Alaric he wasn’t searching for Damon & Bonnie anymore.

I love all forms of Stefan but I think Bitter Stefan is my favorite ☺ that line was perfection. I also enjoyed when he snapped Damon’s neck and said “You’re welcome” just the best. Of course that scene was another example of Elena making Stefan’s pain all about her just like she did in S5. Besides Stefan had every right to be upset, especially after that scene where Rebekah compelled Elena to say why she was in love with Damon now and not Stefan.

My problem is that from the beginning, I was always primed for a Dalena relationship to happen, and while I always felt the chemistry was weirdly off with Dalena, while Katherine and Damon always smoked, I totally thought Elena, was allowed to go a little crazy, a little bad, a little bitchy, to indulge a wildness she never had before, and to explore whatever attraction bubbled between her and Damon. But I've never once believed she loved him or that she ever fell out of love with Stefan. I didn't think that meant they had to reunite for sure, but I would never buy Dalena as the forever true love/OTP of the show, not after witnessing and loving the far far superior Stelena.

I don’t think Elena is in love with Stefan anymore and vice versa. I know she didn’t fall out of love with him when she supposedly fell in love with Damon (which apparently was 3x01) but maybe it happened when she became a vampire. I do know that she was jealous of Stefan and Rebekah when she supposedly wasn’t in love with him anymore, I think she’s just friggin greedy. She got jealous of Tessa, Katherine and Caroline (even with no emotions) too so who the hell knows. I will say she hasn’t seemed jealous of any girls around Stefan since 5x18 when they have that nice talk in front of the fire after Markos lifted the traveler’s curse and they stopped having those visions.

My real question is did Stefan fall out of love with her because he knew she loved his brother and he wanted his brother to be happy or did he just finally realize she’s a truly awful person (it’s probably the former but I stand by the latter.) I too will never buy Delena as the true love/OTP relationship on this show no matter how much the writers try and force it. If you ask me Stefan will always be the better choice for Elena BUT she is not the better choice for him. And since the show has now said that Human Elena was in love with Damon as well as Stefan I don’t think it can all be blamed on her vampirism. She’s just like Katherine she wanted them both and neither brother deserves that.

Let’s be real though the true love story of this show is Stefan and Damon. I think that Elena is just the catalyst to them repairing their bond and getting to the point where we’ve had Stefan sacrifice everything to save his brother’s life and Damon sacrificing his life to bring Stefan back. I think this season has really shown that’s what’s most important is the brothers’ relationship, best decision they ever made was having Stefan be the first person to see Damon when he came back. God that was such a great scene!

Aeryn13 · December 2, 2014

Seeing as I was someone who loved and shipped the Buffy/Angel ship back in the day - even held on through Season 3 when most people got cross-eyed at the constant angst-rehash of it - I should have been onboard with Stelena. And yet that relationship never worked for me.

They got the epic scenes and the rousing speeches and the teary looks and everything and I believe both actors are very talented but as a ship they just put me off. Because they seemed to bring out in each other what most bothered me about their respective characters. Especially Stefan. Elena back then was still so young and certainly inexperienced about the world of the Supernatural so there was a human naivety to her so it`s hard to fully assess her character.

In the beginning, at least the first half of Season 1, Damon was actually the villain of the show. Stefan, in opposition, was clearly the hero. The dark, brooding vampire who hated his vampiric existance and found love with a beautiful human girl. But I think in the beginning, they hit the "hero" note actually too hard with him. He had a problem with controlling his bloodlust and I enjoyed when that first came out during the Miss Mystic Falls really. It gave the character a much needed edge IMO.

But still there was stuff like "even in death, your soul is too pure" and that stuff really puts me off. In his relationship with Elena, that got heightened, though. He was the GOOD guy and the GOOD girl loved him because she saw how GOOD he was and told him so and yada yada.

Once his previous Ripperdom started to come out bit by bit and I got to see the extent to which Stefan clung to his self image as the good guy who acted as if "the Ripper" was a foreign entity to him, they were doomed to me because Elena mirrors that self-image fixation so she fed an attitude in Stefan I wanted him to break out of yesterday.

Meanwhile Damon and Elena actually had some scenes in Seasons 1 and 2 that sizzled with chemistry. Much moreso than they had in the years since they got together. I got that it would have made no sense narratively to put the characters together back then but I wanted them to anyway.

I will say that they mangled the writing to actually bring Delena together and their subsequent relationship almost beyond belief. There was some atrocious storytelling in there. But the pairing was always much preferable to Stelena for me.

Stefan/Caroline is a bit weird right now. They used to have such a fun energy and now things are very awkward because I can`t get from Stefan if he truly feels only friendship or if there is supposed to be something more.

Let’s be real though the true love story of this show is Stefan and Damon. I think that Elena is just the catalyst to them repairing their bond

I could get behind that. They were in such a bad place with each other when the show started and look at them now. Falling for the same doppelganger nearly ruined them back in the day and doing it twice brought them close to going over the edge a couple of times but ultimately all the Elena-centricness and their love for her forced them to spend years with each other in one place pretty much. And lo and behold, they rediscovered their bond.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Aeryn13

Sign In

Relationship Thread: Dysfunction Junction

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

blixie

ByTor

scarynikki12

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment