S04.E11: Dinner for Seven

[jjj]

The tape is a neighborhood version of mutually assured destruction (MAD), an issue Reagan discussed in the context of nuclear proliferation. ("You launch an attack on me?  That sets off an attack against you." Everyone loses.)

[Bannon]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

Don left them in an office that he apparently keeps locked as a matter of course (he unlocks it as they enter), in what seems to be a quiet and relatively untrafficked section of the building. It seems unlikely to me that security is going to break into the locked office of the administrative director -- as I mentioned, the guy who's probably the boss of their boss and in charge of administering security procedures -- because he does something a little off book one time.

And I think it's important to remember that the KGB isn't going into this facility blind. William has no doubt laid out how his lab handles security, what the weaknesses in the system are, etc., etc. And Don was targeted because, based on that information and any other details the KGB was able to glean, he was considered the most likely avenue of entry. So I don't see it as bad writing if the guy they picked specifically for being the weak link in the lab's security apparatus ends up making dumb mistakes when it comes to security.

Which makes it all the more unlikely that Don agrees to let them into the office......."Hmmmm, lemme see here, I live in mortal fear that by unconscious shtupping of my wife's friend, which was followed by her death, will be exposed, and I'm extremely knowledgeable of security procedures......I KNOW!!!.......I'll allow the enraged relatives of the now dead woman I schtupped when I blacked out on two glasses of wine, for the first time in my life, to sign their names in  registry! "

We aren't going to agree. I think that this is really stupid writing, and what irritates me is that it is unnecessary stupid writing.

[Aspsusa]

On 5/26/2016 at 8:32 AM, Gella said:

I usually love the little details in this show, but I am sorry, Gabriel, Russians don't eat "pierogy" for breakfast. There is a big pirog, little pirozhki, and then there are those things you offered Elizabeth, which are either vareniki (in Russia) or galushki (in Ukraine).
That was seriously the first cultural mis-step I had seen so far.

This! Really hard to watch the rest of the episode after this.

Where does pelmeni fit in this? Not being Russian (but living in Finland) I'm used to thinking of any Russian dumplings as pelmeni - is that only for when they are filled with meat/cabbage/mushrooms/other savoury stuff? 
I would have thought vareniki was the Ukrainian name (never heard of galushki, is that a sweet Ukrainian varenik?).

Throughout that scene I kept hoping either of them would have made a snide remark about how the Poles have managed to distort the American vernacular... would have saved it for me.

[JasonCC]

Quote

the weird mix of Christian-ese just seems not very thought through. From a plot point of view, it's much more interesting for Paige to fall in with an evangelical group - because that really flies in the face of P and E's mentality and ideology. And at first, when we saw Paige reading her Bible in her room, that seemed to be what they were aiming for. Then all of a sudden the church got really postmodern and progressive. It just comes across as incoherent and a little sloppy.

You know, I too originally thought it would be a more evangelical/Christian Right group because that fell into my knee-jerk "oh the teen rebels against the parent by going completely opposite" TV (well, and true life) trope. Though, it didn't bother me when it became obvious Pastor Tim's congregation was more social justice advocates because those groups were also really popular during the time (late 70s especially). One often overlooked aspect to the 1970s and Boomers generally is that some went super conservative religious post "the Sixties" (which culturally speaking was more like 1967-1973) while others went super ecumenical/spiritual. The rebellion wasn't inherently in which political flavor to their faith/beliefs, but in rebelling against the mid-century norm of being respectable church attendees on Sundays, but viewing "God-talk" as vaguely distasteful the rest of the week. The "me decade" was all about living your spiritual true self 24/7 and living your truth, etc.

Speaking of Pastor Tim and Alice: I still don't think they 100% view P&E as Soviet spies for the KGB. Remember how Elizabeth laughed and pooh-poohed the notion? The visit of the Salvadorian priest (Nicaraguan?). I doubt they completely believe Elizabeth's spin either, but I suspect they view them as left-wing activists with sketchy and murky ties to the Russians and other left-wing regimes. I think they underestimate their power--and Alice doesn't realize how close to the truth she REALLY was in her fearful state.

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

Speaking of Pastor Tim and Alice: I still don't think they 100% view P&E as Soviet spies for the KGB. Remember how Elizabeth laughed and pooh-poohed the notion? The visit of the Salvadorian priest (Nicaraguan?). I doubt they completely believe Elizabeth's spin either, but I suspect they view them as left-wing activists with sketchy and murky ties to the Russians and other left-wing regimes. I think they underestimate their power--and Alice doesn't realize how close to the truth she REALLY was in her fearful state.

But they do know they're actually Russian. When we saw Paige on the phone that first time that was actually all she told them. We only found out later that she'd explained they were actually spies. So yeah, they don't seem to know exactly what they do, though Alice has connected them to Russian assassins. But they should know that they're born and raised Russians living under fake American IDs.

In a way it's kind of surprising that Tim hasn't approached them about that aspect of it. He does talk to them as if they might as well be Americans working for the Soviets except that they have referred to "your country." I'd almost have expected Tim, especially, to have really shifted the way he related to them when learning they're not Americans.

[Inquisitionist]

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 9:18 AM, Dev F said:

And I think it's important to remember that the KGB isn't going into this facility blind. William has no doubt laid out how his lab handles security, what the weaknesses in the system are, etc., etc. And Don was targeted because, based on that information and any other details the KGB was able to glean, he was considered the most likely avenue of entry.

I watched the last two episodes again last night as my husband got caught up.  In Ep. 4-10, the one in which "Patty" told Don she was pregnant, we also saw Gabriel and Philip planning for their part of the scheme.  There was a reference to Hans and someone else doing surveillance, learning about shift changes and other aspects of the routine at Don's workplace.  So yes, there was a lot of planning involved and we were actually shown some of it.

In Ep, 4-11, when Philips comes home, he tells Elizabeth that Don "went for it."  So, obviously, they weren't sure it would work, and may have had some other back-up plan in place, which there's now no need for us to see.

[Gella]

15 hours ago, Aspsusa said:

This! Really hard to watch the rest of the episode after this.

Where does pelmeni fit in this? Not being Russian (but living in Finland) I'm used to thinking of any Russian dumplings as pelmeni - is that only for when they are filled with meat/cabbage/mushrooms/other savoury stuff? 
I would have thought vareniki was the Ukrainian name (never heard of galushki, is that a sweet Ukrainian varenik?).

Throughout that scene I kept hoping either of them would have made a snide remark about how the Poles have managed to distort the American vernacular... would have saved it for me.

Pelmeni are always with meat. They are like little meat dumplings (beef, veal, chicken, etc). The non-meat version is called vareniki (potatoes, sour cherries, cottage cheese). In Ukraine, at least from what I remember, they called the same things galushki. There are also lazy vareniki, but those are basically gnocchi made with cottage cheese. Pirog is a stuffed large pie. Pirozhok is a little stuffed pie, about the size of empanada, either sweat or savoury, and either baked or deep fried. 

Pierogy on the other hand are Polish stuffed dumplings. They are somewhat bigger and the dough is thicker. They are pretty common in the USA and I notice a lot of TV shows use them as a "Russian" dish. 

I would expect someone like Gabriel to know the difference. 

[gwhh]

Maybe we should sign Stan & Elizabeth up for a few courses on how to make new friends?  

 

I just read. Between 1917 and 1987 thr Soviet Union by there own records.  Kill 61 million soviet citizens to keep communist in power. That does not count the 26 million Soviet citizens that died during ww2. 

[Darrenbrett]

On 5/27/2016 at 5:45 AM, icemiser69 said:

Elizabeth isn't aging all that well. 

My first thought when I read this was: ?????????????????????????????????????????

My second thought was: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 30, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[RedHawk]

I think Keri Russell is looking rough this season. Yes, of course she is gorgeous,  bone structure and all that, but she also looks haggard and her skin looks bad in close-ups. I put that down to her being pregnant and also just how unforgiving HD is. It works for her character because Elizabeth is supposed to be feeling the pressure. Many viewers would likely complain and find it unrealistic if she looked fresh and model-perfect all the time. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedFiat]

On 5/26/2016 at 1:03 AM, izabella said:

I fully expect something to come of Pastor Tim and his wife meeting the FBI agent who lives across the street from the Russian spies they've been dealing with. 

 

Definitely this is the reason for the dinner as a plot device for Tim and Alice to get to know Stan.  Stan suspected Philip and Elizabeth a long time ago and then suppressed his intuition. But Stan isn't stupid, too many horrible things have happened around him and he's beginning to figure out that he has been the unknowing conduit. His break with Oleg tells me he recognizes that at some level, he is the source, but he needs to understand how.  This odd dinner with the religious couple could get him thinking again about the old adage of 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.' Even if Tim thinks he's giving sage advice to Elizabeth, and in some respects the advice is working, she's still the instinctive KGB agent she's always been. Tim may not totally believe Elizabeth, but he wants to. Alice is less trusting, she doesn't hide her disgust at being dragged into it, now she knows exactly where to turn when things get weirder. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by RedFiat

[madam magpie]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I think Keri Russell is looking rough this season. Yes, of course she is gorgeous,  bone structure and all that, but she also looks haggard and her skin looks bad in close-ups. I put that down to her being pregnant and also just how unforgiving HD is. It works for her character because Elizabeth is supposed to be feeling the pressure. Many viewers would likely complain and find it unrealistic if she looked fresh and model-perfect all the time. 

Whew. There's not much hope for the rest of us in the looks dept if Keri Russell looks rough.

 

10 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

My first though when I read this was: ?????????????????????????????????????????

My second thought was: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right?! Mind boggling. I'd be happy to age as badly as she does.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Definitely this is the reason for the dinner as a plot device for Tim and Alice to get to know Stan.  Stan suspected Philip and Elizabeth a long time ago and then suppressed his intuition. But Stan isn't stupid, too many horrible things have happened around him and he's beginning to figure out that he has been the unknowing conduit.

But Stan hasn't been much of a conduit at all. When he suspected the Jennings it was total paranoia and the fact that as a good agent he was on the lookout for the right car. But they haven't done anything since then that's given him any reason to doubt them. He's not feeding them information or at least wasn't in the past. The first time there's ever been any link like that was with Gaad, and even there we're talking about a private citizen on vacation with his family to visit his inlaws. No way that was some top secret trip that only Stan could have known about. Most of the bad stuff that's happened around Stan had nothing to do with his relationship with the Jennings at all.

3 hours ago, RedFiat said:

His break with Oleg tells me he recognizes that at some level, he is the source, but he needs to understand how. 

I don't actually think he's breaking with Oleg at all. I think he's working him, like Gaad told him to do.

1 hour ago, WTEngel said:

I am wondering if they will scan the mail robot for bugs, find a device, and then use it to set up a false trap for whoever is listening on the other end.

It's definitely in their playbook--they did it in S1 and almost caught Philip and Elizabeth. Though it might be harder in this case. That bug was in a private office. If they discussed anything too secret in front of the Mail Robot it's be obvious that it was a trap because it's just toodling around the open office. Still important, but only if they're still listening to the tapes diligently. I'm not sure they are. But certainly they can catch the guy changing the tapes.

As much as Stan shouldn't talk about anything about his job, I think they have given him recognizable guidelines for what he says. He'll talk about things that are over or make vague allusions to things going badly or well at work. In the case of Gaad I guess his murder isn't secret at all--it was allegedly a robbery gone wrong. What he shared was just his suspicions. That's probably one of the best pieces of info he's ever given Philip (the John Hinkley info was good but would also be common knowledge the next day)--that their stupid murder of Gaad might be officially a robbery but there's one agent who knows it was them and he's going to be doing something about it.

[JasonCC]

Speaking of aging and the characters ages--I actually was thinking about the long con plot with Kimmy & Phillip. I find Matthew Rhys to be a very handsome man, but not especially young looking. Especially with his disguise on that assignment. Wouldn't twentysomething Hans have been a more believable agent for this? I could much more believe a teenaged girl falling for him than a 40ish dad.

Speaking of Hans, was he recruited IN the USA? Obviously he's South African and the fight against Apartheid--and their ban of the Communist Party--is what pulled him over, but was he already studying in the US or what? Did Elizabeth recruit him with sex? I need to rewatch the earlier seasons.

Edited May 30, 2016 by JasonCC

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

Speaking of aging and the characters ages--I actually was thinking about the long con plot with Kimmy & Phillip. I find Matthew Rhys to be a very handsome man, but not especially young looking. Especially with his disguise on that assignment. Wouldn't twentysomething Hans have been a more believable agent for this? I could much more believe a teenaged girl falling for him than a 40ish dad.

No, the whole point was that she wanted a 40-ish dad. She was originally hitting on the guy she was babysitting for. They knew she'd go for somebody that age.

22 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

Speaking of Hans, was he recruited IN the USA? Obviously he's South African and the fight against Apartheid--and their ban of the Communist Party--is what pulled him over, but was he already studying in the US or what? Did Elizabeth recruit him with sex? I need to rewatch the earlier seasons.

We don't know how they met or how he was recruited, but it was definitely was not with sex. He's never slept with Elizabeth. He's a convert over true belief.

[RedFiat]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

5 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Definitely this is the reason for the dinner as a plot device for Tim and Alice to get to know Stan.  Stan suspected Philip and Elizabeth a long time ago and then suppressed his intuition. But Stan isn't stupid, too many horrible things have happened around him and he's beginning to figure out that he has been the unknowing conduit.

But Stan hasn't been much of a conduit at all. When he suspected the Jennings it was total paranoia and the fact that as a good agent he was on the lookout for the right car. But they haven't done anything since then that's given him any reason to doubt them. He's not feeding them information or at least wasn't in the past. The first time there's ever been any link like that was with Gaad, and even there we're talking about a private citizen on vacation with his family to visit his inlaws. No way that was some top secret trip that only Stan could have known about. Most of the bad stuff that's happened around Stan had nothing to do with his relationship with the Jennings at all.

5 hours ago, RedFiat said:

His break with Oleg tells me he recognizes that at some level, he is the source, but he needs to understand how. 

I don't actually think he's breaking with Oleg at all. I think he's working him, like Gaad told him to do.

 

Oh, I guess I thought that Stan was breaking with Oleg because Gaad told him something was preventing him from moving forward, and that was his guilt over Nina's death. Oleg was that connection to Nina. Both men willing her safe- was the reason she died. He has got to let go of the guilt, for me Oleg was symbolic of that. But now since Oleg is literally in bed with another operative he is still in the picture.    

IMO Stan is not seeing the world as he once did. He knows for instance that Martha is never coming back, and to give false hope to her dad was not the right thing to do. Stan is still reeling from it all but he may begin to awkwardly piece together some things, because Gaad whom he respected made mistakes about Martha that were right under his nose. (the pen being bugged) I think Stan will start to re-think his conversations with seemingly innocuous people about his work, like Philip but mostly Henry because the answer is there with that kid. Henry has dropped a lot of information about his parents and if Stan probes a bit he'll get a lot more.     

Edited May 30, 2016 by RedFiat

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I think Keri Russell is looking rough this season.

I would add that Elizabeth, not Keri is looking rough this season.  I think it's an intentional use of makeup in order to show the increasing strain that their lives have created for them.

[hippielamb]

1 hour ago, JasonCC said:

Speaking of aging and the characters ages--I actually was thinking about the long con plot with Kimmy & Phillip. I find Matthew Rhys to be a very handsome man, but not especially young looking. Especially with his disguise on that assignment. Wouldn't twentysomething Hans have been a more believable agent for this? I could much more believe a teenaged girl falling for him than a 40ish dad.

Speaking of Hans, was he recruited IN the USA? Obviously he's South African and the fight against Apartheid--and their ban of the Communist Party--is what pulled him over, but was he already studying in the US or what? Did Elizabeth recruit him with sex? I need to rewatch the earlier seasons.

I'm not sure if Hans is on par with Phillip as far as getting info, playing the long game, etc. Last season I think it was, we saw Elizabeth coaching him on surveillance. Not sure if that's all he does. 

I don't think Elizabeth recruited him with sex, since he made overtures to her which she shut down. 

Eta: whoops guess I should have read later replies as the Hans/Elizabeth question had been answered. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by hippielamb

[madam magpie]

6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I would add that Elizabeth, not Keri is looking rough this season.  I think it's an intentional use of makeup in order to show the increasing strain that their lives have created for them.

This is likely true, though I don't even think Elizabeth looks "rough." She seems tired and worried, though, for sure.

One of the reasons this discussion is so mind-boggling for me (besides the obvious) is that one of the "problems" with Keri Russell has been how pretty she is. JJ Abrams talked about it in regard to casting her in Felicity. He wanted someone much more homely for the role, and when Keri walked into the room to read, he basically wrote her off immediately because of how she looked. Then she read, and she brought such charm and vulnerability to the part that he was like, "Well...ok. I guess Felicity will be pretty instead." How she looks vs. how she acts has always been one of her strengths, the incongruity of that. It's one big reason she works so well here, I think. Elizabeth can be stone cold and so hard that she has to be tempered somehow. With Keri being so all-American pretty and always having an underlying sense of vulnerability, she makes Elizabeth work. There's nothing hard or rough about Keri Russell, which is exactly what the character of Elizabeth needs to have audiences empathize with her and her situation.

I saw an interview with Keri about when she was offered the part of Elizabeth, and she was initially sort of flabbergasted. She said she kept saying to her agent, "This is fantastic and I love this show/woman, but...they know who I am, right??" But the creators of this show also grasped that how she looks and the inherent softness about her (which I don't think she's so much doing, honestly; I think that's just who she is) were exactly what Elizabeth needed. Plus, she's great, of course, and skilled, which they also saw. But those qualities were key.

Edited May 30, 2016 by madam magpie

[Gella]

Keri Russell has always been able to believably play a gorgeous girl/woman who sincerely is unaware of exactly how beautiful she is. I think it's one of her acting strengths. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, JasonCC said:

Speaking of aging and the characters ages--I actually was thinking about the long con plot with Kimmy & Phillip. I find Matthew Rhys to be a very handsome man, but not especially young looking. Especially with his disguise on that assignment. Wouldn't twentysomething Hans have been a more believable agent for this? I could much more believe a teenaged girl falling for him than a 40ish dad.

Speaking of Hans, was he recruited IN the USA? Obviously he's South African and the fight against Apartheid--and their ban of the Communist Party--is what pulled him over, but was he already studying in the US or what? Did Elizabeth recruit him with sex? I need to rewatch the earlier seasons.

Hans is in no way ready for anything that complicated.  He's still being trained.

But yeah, as was said above, Philip was the kind of man, for whatever reasons, she hit on.  Thank heavens Philip chose another way to become close to her and didn't just sleep with her as she wanted.

[mattie0808]

3 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Whew. There's not much hope for the rest of us in the looks dept if Keri Russell looks rough.

You got that right. And I'm younger than her!

[kokapetl]

Keri Russell looks about par for a forty year old actress with minimal body fat, plus Botox. There's a difference from the Felicity years, but she was playing a university student then. 

Matthew Rhys looks his age. 

Noah Emmerich, he is aging badly.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedFiat said:

I think Stan will start to re-think his conversations with seemingly innocuous people about his work, like Philip but mostly Henry because the answer is there with that kid. Henry has dropped a lot of information about his parents and if Stan probes a bit he'll get a lot more.     

Have we really seen him drop much info about his parents? He likes to hang out with Stan because he's got games and videos Henry likes and we've seen them talk about women. The only thing he said about his parents is that his mother burns instant macaroni and his dad travels a lot. The traveling thing was a clue that Stan noted, but Henry thinks his parents are boring and normal. He's not like Paige with Pastor Tim blabbing about how they seem to have a secret and they have no family etc. Henry seems to treat his parents like familiar, normal, boring parts of his life who have literally nothing else going on than their boring job and making him go to bed on time. He resents when they're not there when he wants them but doesn't seem to notice them beyond that. I mean, I agree that Henry's an obvious danger since even a little thing could set Stan off (like we saw him take note of the "my dad's never around" line) but I don't think he's been dropping information so far. Henry's also now seem to adjusted to the more normal role-model of Matthew, while still being buds with Stan.

I think Stan clearly doesn't have suspicions about the Jennings so far since he just confided in Philip and earlier was glad to get him back as a friend. In some ways he's gone in the opposite way of showing he's paranoid. He's blabbing things to his kid that get back to the Jennings as well as telling Philip his suspicions and the whereabouts of his ex-boss. He has heard some clues, like the way Henry's "my dad's never around" and "my parents had to go out of town for some client I can't even remember the story" was then followed by Philip months later explaining that he was in better shape because he dropped a difficult client, but their stories matched up.

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

I'm not sure if Hans is on par with Phillip as far as getting info, playing the long game, etc. Last season I think it was, we saw Elizabeth coaching him on surveillance. Not sure if that's all he does. 

This has got to be one of their most important operations. Of course they'd rather have Philip in there. As far as we know Hans hasn't even been trained in this sort of thing.

57 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

One of the reasons this discussion is so mind-boggling for me (besides the obvious) is that one of the "problems" with Keri Russell has been how pretty she is.

Yeah, in some ways Leanne was much more believable as a spy since she's not somebody you'd notice as much. But then, Anna Chapman was also a stunner so I guess they use a variety!

[jjj]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Hans is in no way ready for anything that complicated.  He's still being trained.

But yeah, as was said above, Philip was the kind of man, for whatever reasons, she hit on.  Thank heavens Philip chose another way to become close to her and didn't just sleep with her as she wanted.

And Hans showed serious lack of judgment when he was being trained, when he potentially revealed himself to a South African sympathizer then ran away.  He begged to be allowed to continue, then had a catastrophic event when he excruciatingly killed that observer.  All we have seen is that he is a student and being used for surveillance.

I remember when Kimmie was introduced and everyone here was aghast that Philip might sleep with her for the mission.  Great that the writers found such a way around that. 

6 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Definitely this is the reason for the dinner as a plot device for Tim and Alice to get to know Stan.  Stan suspected Philip and Elizabeth a long time ago and then suppressed his intuition. But Stan isn't stupid, too many horrible things have happened around him and he's beginning to figure out that he has been the unknowing conduit.

As was said above, the Jennings have not been a conduit.  And Stan got no whiffs of anything irregular with the Jennings at that dinner -- although the renegade, arrested, protesting pastor did cause his eyebrows to raise. 

[Umbelina]

I think Keri has that pregnancy mask some women get, chloasma or melasma gravidarum.  I noticed it under her eyes, darkening skin with a bit too much concealer which does "age" you.  It's normal, and it actually really fits in with the "look tired and worried" kinds of stories this season.

Anyway, there was one scene where I saw it clearly, and the concealer frankly just made it worse.

She's lovely.

Anyway, I think there have been many attractive spies in all kinds of agencies around the globe.  Pretty certainly wouldn't be a negative, neither would handsome.  They both obviously have their uses.  Average, nondescript is also valuable.

[hellmouse]

In addition to the emotional stress Elizabeth has been under, she's also been wearing a lot more makeup than usual and smoking a lot more. Those things wreak havoc on your skin too. 

I was more worried about Philip in the first half of the season. He looked terrible. Elizabeth just looks like the job is taking a physical toll on her in a way that we haven't seen before. 

I was thinking about what Elizabeth said to Paige regarding Alice. She said that it works to their advantage that Alice accused them of something they didn't do, because now Alice feels bad about it. What Paige did not pick up in that moment is that the same is true of Paige and her parents. She accused them of something they didn't do, and now she feels bad, which works to Philip and Elizabeth's advantage. Maybe Paige will realize that as part of her reaction to Elizabeth killing the guy who attacked them.

[scartact]

51 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I was more worried about Philip in the first half of the season. He looked terrible. Elizabeth just looks like the job is taking a physical toll on her in a way that we haven't seen before. 

It's kinda interesting because this season sort of has two "split" parallel emotional arcs between Philip and Elizabeth. Philip's primary emotional arc was concerned with Martha; meanwhile, Elizabeth has been getting more focus on the back half of this season in regards to Young Hee and Don, and now with Paige since her storyline is coming back to the forefront (and Elizabeth is more often the parent in focus wrt Paige). Elizabeth has definitely been looking a little rougher this season than in previous ones. (Though, I'll withhold on comments on KR's physical appearance because I find it a little distasteful to scrutinize/criticize actors and actresses as they age.)

1 hour ago, jjj said:

As was said above, the Jennings have not been a conduit.  And Stan got no whiffs of anything irregular with the Jennings at that dinner -- although the renegade, arrested, protesting pastor did cause his eyebrows to raise. 

If anything, I think the dinner is just a continuation of Stan receiving more and more information piecemeal. It won't be long till eventually all these puzzle pieces come together to give Stan the entire picture of who exactly Philip and Elizabeth are. In the meanwhile, it's all just potentially unrelated bits of information here and there, but Stan really has no reason yet to connect Philip and Elizabeth to the elusive KGB agents that have been evading him since season one. In this sense,  Stan may also be "too close" to see it, I imagine that Aderholt is going to be key in uncovering this for Stan. Perhaps Henry too, indirectly. I mean, Stan hasn't learned anything major about them from Henry, nor does Henry either have reason to be suspicious, but Henry is definitely the most overlooked and vulnerable channel for leakage of information. And I actually think that can go both ways between Stan and the Jennings.

[jjj]

Whenever Elizabeth is wearing a shorter wig, especially with a beret, she looks considerably younger -- and when she is disguised as someone waiting for a drug connection at a bus stop (last season), she looks quite bedraggled and wasted.  It's all about the choices KR and the producers make about her appearance that make her youthful or aging.  At home, Elizabeth looks like what I would expect of a working mother with two adolescents.  Actually, looks better than some I know, but they surely have their hands full of responsibility!  I would love it if one of her disguises was a wig in the style of her infamous Season Two "Felicity" haircut! 

[crgirl412]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

No, the whole point was that she wanted a 40-ish dad. She was originally hitting on the guy she was babysitting for. They knew she'd go for somebody that age.

We don't know how they met or how he was recruited, but it was definitely was not with sex. He's never slept with Elizabeth. He's a convert over true belief.

I think Hans is the real deal in his beliefs but he seems socially awkward and perhaps "searching" for something and got recruited by smooth talking Elizabeth.  

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, scartact said:

If anything, I think the dinner is just a continuation of Stan receiving more and more information piecemeal. It won't be long till eventually all these puzzle pieces come together to give Stan the entire picture of who exactly Philip and Elizabeth are.

Actually the dinner gave him good information. Having a pastor and his wife over for dinner doesn't make anyone seem like a Soviet spy, even if the pastor's been arrested at a nuclear protest. I think Stan gets that this is Paige's thing, even if Elizabeth and Philip are trying to be nice as pie to them (and Elizabeth is calling Pastor Tim "their" pastor). It's not like Philip and Elizabeth are going to his protests. And Pastor Tim's interest in him being FBI would probably look more like Pastor Tim's own sensibilities making him perk up than anything to do with the Jennings.

3 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

I think Hans is the real deal in his beliefs but he seems socially awkward and perhaps "searching" for something and got recruited by smooth talking Elizabeth.  

He may not have been recruited by Elizabeth at all, but just sent to her for training. He is South African, after all, and seems to be primarily interested in the Soviets because they are anti-Apartheid. It seems unlikely that Elizabeth would have really been able to recruit him herself, exactly, because she'd have to be hanging around a college campus and getting to know a lot of kids and figuring he was a good pick etc. That's possible, but it doesn't seem like something Elizabeth's doing or had been doing at all. With Gregory and Charles, who seem to work much like Hans but be more experienced, I assume that's exactly what they both did. Somebody like Martha they would have researched because she was with the FBI etc.

[hellmouse]

39 minutes ago, scartact said:

If anything, I think the dinner is just a continuation of Stan receiving more and more information piecemeal. It won't be long till eventually all these puzzle pieces come together to give Stan the entire picture of who exactly Philip and Elizabeth are. In the meanwhile, it's all just potentially unrelated bits of information here and there, but Stan really has no reason yet to connect Philip and Elizabeth to the elusive KGB agents that have been evading him since season one. In this sense,  Stan may also be "too close" to see it, I imagine that Aderholt is going to be key in uncovering this for Stan. Perhaps Henry too, indirectly. I mean, Stan hasn't learned anything major about them from Henry, nor does Henry either have reason to be suspicious, but Henry is definitely the most overlooked and vulnerable channel for leakage of information. And I actually think that can go both ways between Stan and the Jennings.

Sometimes I think about Stan's reaction when he learns everything, and how so much of the show could just be one giant flashback for him, with all the pieces fitting together. When/if he finds out, it's game over, because they can't work him. 

ETA how amazing would it be if the Jenningses just move away and Stan never finds out they were spies until much later. It would still be the same miserable discovery for him, but compounded by knowing they got away. Maybe he even helped them pack boxes into the moving truck, lol.

Edited May 30, 2016 by hellmouse

[jjj]

Wasn't Stan at a dinner at the Jennings last season where he learned that Paige was about to be baptized?  Or was someone else there?  (has anyone else ever been at the Jennings' dinner table except Stan and Pastor Tim/Alice?)  So he would have known from a while back that Paige was involved in a church.  I actually thought Stan had already met Pastor Tim, but clearly not.  I was so surprised when Philip said "he's our pastor," and Pastor Tim was probably more surprised than me. 

And remember the previous episode, when there was a knock at the door (it was Alice of Doom) and Elizabeth said, "If that's Stan, tell him there are no leftovers," which made me laugh, and also told us that Stan is in their house a lot more than we see in each episode. 

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Sometimes I think about Stan's reaction when he learns everything, and how so much of the show could just be one giant flashback for him, with all the pieces fitting together. When/if he finds out, it's game over, because they can't work him. 

What would the flashbacks even be, though? There was the car, which he thought of at the time. The rest is like...Elizabeth being sore after the fight with Gaad, Philip's difficult client being Martha, Stan telling Philip about Gaad. The shootout in The Colonel and Elizabeth being gone. There haven't been that many times when Stan and the Jennings have really crossed paths, and most of them don't really work as flashbacks since Stan would have to not only know they're Illegals but that they're the specific Illegals who did X, Y and Z. So like...Henry saying that his dad travels a lot would somehow have to link to Martha being married, which isn't quite the same.

Although I guess it could just be one good one, like there was in BB with "You got me." Like maybe Philip that first day saying "Guess I won't do any spying around here" or "The Russians...they're the worst, right?"

Really what might be the worst is Stan wouldn't be able to remember what he said that might have been dangerous, especially since a lot of stuff they got from him was on the bug, like Stan knowing about the Connors. We've already seen him not remember telling Philip Gaad was on vacation.

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

Wasn't Stan at a dinner at the Jennings last season where he learned that Paige was about to be baptized?

Tori, I think you mean. He was also at dinner when Philip covered Paige's shock at realizing what a danger Stan was by saying she'd been very observant since the baptism.

 

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

I was so surprised when Philip said "he's our pastor," and Pastor Tim was probably more surprised than me. 

I think that was Elizabeth who said that.

[hellmouse]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

What would the flashbacks even be, though? There was the car, which he thought of at the time. The rest is like...Elizabeth being sore after the fight with Gaad, Philip's difficult client being Martha, Stan telling Philip about Gaad. The shootout in The Colonel and Elizabeth being gone. There haven't been that many times when Stan and the Jennings have really crossed paths, and most of them don't really work as flashbacks since Stan would have to not only know they're Illegals but that they're the specific Illegals who did X, Y and Z. So like...Henry saying that his dad travels a lot would somehow have to link to Martha being married, which isn't quite the same.

Although I guess it could just be one good one, like there was in BB with "You got me." Like maybe Philip that first day saying "Guess I won't do any spying around here" or "The Russians...they're the worst, right?"

Really what might be the worst is Stan wouldn't be able to remember what he said that might have been dangerous, especially since a lot of stuff they got from him was on the bug, like Stan knowing about the Connors. We've already seen him not remember telling Philip Gaad was on vacation.

 

I think they would be moments of friendship that he'd flash back to. Moments where he confided in Philip that he now looks at through a lens of someone who has been duped and betrayed. He went to Philip after his partner was killed, he told Philip about his affair, he went to EST with Philip, he played racquetball with him, he spent a lot of time at their house, etc. He considers Philip a friend. He'll wonder if any of that was real. 

But in terms of moments where he could see that he missed some clue, you are right, there's not much. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, hellmouse said:

I think they would be moments of friendship that he'd flash back to. Moments where he confided in Philip that he now looks at through a lens of someone who has been duped and betrayed. He went to Philip after his partner was killed, he told Philip about his affair, he went to EST with Philip, he played racquetball with him, he spent a lot of time at their house, etc. He considers Philip a friend. He'll wonder if any of that was real. 

Ah! That makes sense. I hadn't even thought of those kinds of moments. Those would be the worst. And not even fake, really.

[crgirl412]

Sistermagpie mentioned Charles whom we haven't seen all season!!   He's such an interesting character and I want to see more of him.  He  probably lives in DC so could be shown being interviewed or even meeting with Gabriel.  

[RedHawk]

I think during her angry inquiring phase Paige asked Philip, "Is Stan even your real friend?" and Philip stammered and said, "Yes, he is" which was absolutely true. 

 

1 hour ago, jjj said:

Wasn't Stan at a dinner at the Jennings last season where he learned that Paige was about to be baptized?  Or was someone else there?  (has anyone else ever been at the Jennings' dinner table except Stan and Pastor Tim/Alice?)  So he would have known from a while back that Paige was involved in a church.  I actually thought Stan had already met Pastor Tim, but clearly not.  I was so surprised when Philip said "he's our pastor," and Pastor Tim was probably more surprised than me. 

And remember the previous episode, when there was a knock at the door (it was Alice of Doom) and Elizabeth said, "If that's Stan, tell him there are no leftovers," which made me laugh, and also told us that Stan is in their house a lot more than we see in each episode. 

Stan and Tori were at dinner with the Jennings family when Paige told him she was getting baptized. Philip had told Stan he could invite Tori to dinner at their home; I think it was their first date.

[madam magpie]

14 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

Sistermagpie mentioned Charles whom we haven't seen all season!!   He's such an interesting character and I want to see more of him.  He  probably lives in DC so could be shown being interviewed or even meeting with Gabriel.  

Who the heck is Charles??

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Who the heck is Charles??

He's the reporter that Philip works with. In S2 they also did a job together where they broke into the office to get the Arpanet stuff. He's an alcoholic who seems to be a very old agent of Philip's. He pretends to be a converted liberal who's now really right wing. We first met him when he set up the Polish guy for Irina.

[RedHawk]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He's the reporter that Philip works with. In S2 they also did a job together where they broke into the office to get the Arpanet stuff. He's an alcoholic who seems to be a very old agent of Philip's. He pretends to be a converted liberal who's now really right wing. We first met him when he set up the Polish guy for Irina.

And he also interviewed Zinaida (sp?) on his TV show, which caused Stan to get those FBI-level "something ain't right here" vibes which resulted in her eventual arrest. (IIRC, that was Charles, wasn't it?)

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

And he also interviewed Zinaida (sp?) on his TV show, which caused Stan to get those FBI-level "something ain't right here" vibes which resulted in her eventual arrest. (IIRC, that was Charles, wasn't it?)

Yup, that was a great little use of Charles. As far as we know he wasn't in any contact with Philip about it either.

[Umbelina]

Who did they get to retrieve the Mail Robot tapes?  Was that some janitor they bribed?

[RedHawk]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Who did they get to retrieve the Mail Robot tapes?  Was that some janitor they bribed?

Good question. Someone above mentioned the tapes and started me wondering about that. How to get into the FBI building? Seems mighty risky to bribe a janitor. We may get our answer in the next episode.

Maybe Mail Robot turned against his country after Gaad attacked him and late at night just rolls those tapes on out to Falls Church himself. 

[jjj]

I think it was Gabriel who said last season that the Mail Robot could be "serviced" (= tapes retrieved) by a janitor or other similar staff they have on the inside.  Which will be another nasty surprise for the FBI if they investigate the Mail Robot (which certainly appears highly probable, based on Agent Aderholt's comment this week) -- not just that the Mail Robot is bugged, but that someone on the inside is passing the tapes along to the KGB.  Honestly, at that point, if I were in charge, I would strip that floor down to the studs and just rebuild it with everything new and new staff.  Except Agent Aderholt. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by jjj

[RedHawk]

Just put Aderholt in charge of everything. 

[hellmouse]

7 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Just put Aderholt in charge of everything. 

And Arkady too! ;)

[SlackerInc]

On 5/27/2016 at 9:56 AM, Umbelina said:

What bothers me is that people are still talking about rape as if it's an "attraction" or in any way simply a guy being turned on by the way someone looks.  Rape is about control, about power, about domination, it's not about normal sexual attraction.  Babies are raped, grandmothers are raped, it's about POWER and violence.

I've heard this dogma as long as I can remember (as I've mentioned, I was raised in a super left wing family--I myself have become basically a center-left Democrat, so a right winger by comparison, LOL).  I just don't think it's true in the majority of cases.

23 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I think Keri Russell is looking rough this season. Yes, of course she is gorgeous,  bone structure and all that, but she also looks haggard and her skin looks bad in close-ups. I put that down to her being pregnant and also just how unforgiving HD is. It works for her character because Elizabeth is supposed to be feeling the pressure. Many viewers would likely complain and find it unrealistic if she looked fresh and model-perfect all the time. 

Keri Russell is more attractive than the vast majority of 40 year old women.  But she does not look as attractive as she did when she started the show.  How many people look as good at 40 as they did at 36?  That's just life.

The question of whether Stan was being sincere with Oleg is a very interesting, and important, one.  When I was watching, I took what he said at complete face value; but now I have to admit the alternate explanations merit consideration.  It's true that he didn't look as haggard, or act as much at the end of his rope, in other scenes (although he seemed to be also saying to Philip that he was having a tough time).  But if he is faking it, I have two questions:

(1) Why tell Oleg "this is the last time we'll meet"?  How does that advance anything?

(2) How does he make himself look so bad that Oleg, standing a ways away in the dark, will remark "you look terrible"?

[jrlr]

5 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I've heard this dogma as long as I can remember (as I've mentioned, I was raised in a super left wing family--I myself have become basically a center-left Democrat, so a right winger by comparison, LOL).  I just don't think it's true in the majority of cases.

 

Please don't blame your thinking about rape on your left wing family.  I came from exactly the same background as you did, and to say that rape isn't true in the majority of cases is neither right nor left - it's just ignorant.  

[Gella]

I actually don't think Jenningses use Stan much for information. Yes, occasionally he randomly says something that Philip reports, but mostly Philip leaves him alone in that regard. I would imagine trying to ply a trained counterintelligence agent for information would be very risky. He is not Martha and could easily pick up exactly what is happening. 

After all he wasn't their mark. He just happened to move next door.  

If and when Stan finds out that his friends were the exact same people he was hunting and he had absolutely no clue -- I imagine that would cause him to no longer trust his own judgment and end his career. Yet, it's interesting that the people he imagines to be absolute villains are the very same couple whose house he regularly raids for leftovers and company. In that sense Philip is in a better position because while he knows that this is technically an adversary, it's also his friend. Lots of shades of grey there.