S04.E11: Dinner for Seven

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I was thinking about just that after this ep because didn't she tell Lucia about it? She just said the first time she had to do it she did it and wrote it up in her report, something like that. I picture her being very nervous but repressing the emotion, probably walking until she stopped shaking or whatever and then being extra professional about writing about it. But I don't doubt for a moment she'd not have shown it and been a bit traumatized by it.

I wonder about Philip too, of course, since we know the first time he killed, but did that make the second time easier or harder? And when was the second time?

I wonder if this subject might come up now that Paige knows.

It has to come up, if only in his thoughts. I'm sure Paige will ask if he's killed people too.  The nice Philip we see meeting Elizabeth for the first time doesn't look like someone who killed a lot of people, but appearances can be deceiving.

There is so much we will probably never know about Philip. 

[jjj]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The podcast says this particular con was used very successfully in real life, on highly trained people taught to be wary of KGB tricks.  He gives examples, an ambassador, etc. 

What podcast?

Also:  Chekhov's Mail Robot.  We had our eyes on the wrong weapon waiting to go off. 

I love that Stan and Agent Aderholt keep getting to the right pieces of the puzzle, but just do not know how it all fits together.

You would think the violent death of two workers at an airplane manufacturing plant would have raised some eyebrows (guy under car and the informant Elizabeth killed a few weeks ago).  (Eight months ago, in show time.) 

I did not remember Agent Gaad at the Season One barbeque with the Jennings, but that must have been a shock to Elizabeth when she was fighting with him on the street last season.  It was not just that he would have seen her without the wig, if it had come off; it was that he might actually recognize her.  I had not realized that until now. 

[beeble]

Wonder what a scene with just Paige and Stan would be like?

Paige: "I'm not supposed to say this, but my parents are spies! For the Russians!"

Stan: "You don't say!?! Well I'm not supposed to say this, but I slept with a Russian agent I turned but who turned back and now I'm BFFs with her ex Soviet lover AND she was killed in Siberia, AND my boss' ex secretary was married to a KGB agent."

Paige: "Wow, Mr. Beeman! That sounds really adult. Back to my problems, my mom said that they never hurt anyone, but I saw her kill a guy with a knife and scare away his friend! And she was unarmed!"

Stan: "That's kind of crazy, Paige. You have any beer in the fridge?"

Paige: "Sure, help yourself. I'm going across the street to make out with/convert your creepy son I can't stay away from."

[shura]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, and that grab for the wallet was just one of many signs that Elizabeth was perfectly calm about killing the guy. She stuck the knife in his throat and jabbed it in there, not flinching from the actual contact with blood, she looked around immediately for witnesses, she picked up the wallet, she commanded Paige to come to the car to make a getaway. Absolutely nothing about her demeanor suggested someone who had just killed someone for the first time.

It would be quite natural if Paige didn't actually notice most of these signs, if any at all. People routinely don't see things they are not expecting to see. Paige would not be expecting to see her mother act as a cold-blooded killer; besides, she's be shocked out of her mind by the mugging and the death. So if the writers chose to plead inattentional blindness there, I'd buy it. They are not going to do it though.

[scartact]

5 hours ago, jjj said:

What podcast?

Slate does a podcast with the Joe Weisberg & Joel Field, the creators, after each episode. They'll often interview behind the scenes persons or actors (a majority of the main cast have all shown up in one or two episodes), or people who've helped them with research. They definitely said the operation they did on Don was something that was often surprisingly successful, especially with diplomats who had been trained to watch out for these kinds of things.

6 hours ago, jenrising said:

I know it isn't fair, but I'm so over Paige and her traumas. In reality I'd have all the compassion in the world for her situation, but it's enough with her sad puppy eyes on the show. 

Honestly, this is why I would be more interested if her reaction to this particular trauma is for her to actually help Elizabeth cover up the death. She doesn't bug me as much as she may bug other people, but the continual back and forth is just a little exhausting to watch. I was really looking forward to her and Elizabeth turning a corner in this particular plot. Too bad that corner just happened to have creepy muggers.

Edited May 27, 2016 by scartact

[Chaos Theory]

44 minutes ago, jjj said:

You would think the violent death of two workers at an airplane manufacturing plant would have raised some eyebrows (guy under car and the informant Elizabeth killed a few weeks ago).  (Eight months ago, in show time.) 

People die all the time.   Both deaths were unrelated and easily explained.  The car guy died accidentally.  Accidents happen.  And Lisa's death could easily be attributed to her abusive boyfriend (Husband?)  who stole her money and ran off.    This is one of the downsides of omniscient storytelling.  We as watchers can connect all the dots and think the character (most notably Stan) is an idiot because he does not when there is little or no reason why he should.  My one issue with Stan (and I can hand wave it due to necessity of the story) is his Diarrhea of the mouth.  Almost literally his first two sentences to the Jennings (and almost everyone he meets) are "I am FBI.  I chase Russians."  He should be smarter then that.  He worked undercover for two two years.  He should have a cover story to tell his neighbors and strangers on what he does.  I could accept that he tells people he's FBI but telling them he is a covert agent was a rookie move.....however like I said it was a forgivable one to get the plot moving and to make Stan and Philip friends.  However he still talks way too much.  Again I hand wave that off as a necessary plot device to keep the story moving.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[SlackerInc]

That?  Was awesome.

I think it could have been interesting to show Elizabeth kicking ass in a similar situation before Paige knew anything, or with her brother present instead.  Maybe both of them should have been there, so they could each have had their own reactions.  Holly Taylor would have had a dream--though very difficult--task for an actor: to play Paige as a teenaged girl who is shocked and horrified by what her mother can do, but then has to try to act herself (so, "meta-acting" if you will: Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell do it all the time, but they're so smooth we don't see the second level of the character's struggle to act most of the time).

What Paige then would have to do is not to compose herself, exactly, because that would seem weird to her brother.  But she has to pretend this is a complete shock in the same way it is to Henry, and while not asking the questions she's dying to ask when Henry's not there, to still ask "how did you know how to do that?" and "why aren't we calling the cops?" etc.  Oh well, still a cool scene.

Like a lot of people, I had been struggling to see how they were going to get Don to give up the codes. It makes a lot more sense that they weren't going to get him to give them up at all. But of course, the whole thing would have gone south if he simply said they should go outside and talk.

Fun to see how they play Pastor Tim like a fiddle.

[jjj]

26 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

People die all the time.   Both deaths were unrelated and easily explained.  The car guy died accidentally.  Accidents happen.  And Lisa's death could easily be attributed to her abusive boyfriend (Husband?)  who stole her money and ran off.    This is one of the downsides of omniscient storytelling.  We as watchers can connect all the dots and think the character (most notably Stan) is an idiot because he does not when there is little or no reason why he should.  My one issue with Stan (and I can hand wave it due to necessity of the story) is his Diarrhea of the mouth.  Almost literally his first two sentences to the Jennings (and almost everyone he meets) are "I am FBI.  I chase Russians."  He should be smarter then that.  He worked undercover for two two years.  He should have a cover story to tell his neighbors and strangers on what he does.  I could accept that he tells people he's FBI but telling them he is a covert agent was a rookie move.....

Yes, I agree -- it is just that Agent Aderholt is starting to see innocuous-looking events as meaningful, and they are:  like the old woman with known heart troubles and a fondness for working at night being found dead one morning.  That is *way* less suspicious than the aerospace workers' violent deaths.

Agree about the fact that no FBI agent would make that an introductory statement.  I mentioned a few weeks ago that I knew agents then and now, and the cover occupation was either that they worked for the Treasury or Justice Departments.  I saw this at events like weddings, where they had to meet lots of people they did not know.  I knew one that did not even tell friends he worked for the FBI -- it became known years later, and friends were so surprised.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by jjj

[SlackerInc]

32 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

My one issue with Stan (and I can hand wave it due to necessity of the story) is his Diarrhea of the mouth.  Almost literally his first two sentences to the Jennings (and almost everyone he meets) are "I am FBI.  I chase Russians."  He should be smarter then that.  He worked undercover for two two years.  He should have a cover story to tell his neighbors and strangers on what he does.  I could accept that he tells people he's FBI but telling them he is a covert agent was a rookie move.....however like I said it was a forgivable one to get the plot moving and to make Stan and Philip friends.

As of the pilot, my impression was that he was no longer a covert agent.  He had been undercover for two years, but he was now just a plainclothes FBI detective, working in counterintelligence.  I mean, most days he puts on a suit and drives to FBI HQ, not to some secret safehouse like they used with Nina.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, jjj said:

Agree about the fact that no FBI agent would make that an introductory statement.  I mentioned a few weeks ago that I knew agents then and now, and the cover occupation was either that they worked for the Treasury or Justice Departments.  I saw this at events like weddings, where they had to meet lots of people they did not know.  I knew one that did not even tell friends he worked for the FBI -- it became known years later, and friends were so surprised.  (I suspected it because I worked near the building where he had an office.) 

It's funny how this time it was Henry who announced it and Stan just had to agree. We're at the point where we're discussing telling Henry who's at dinner announcing who works in intelligence/counter-intelligence. Not that I can blame Henry since he hasn't been told to keep it quiet, but it's funny.

Also I love how Henry's just become completely like pleasure-seeking. Practically every time we see him, if he's not cheerfully complaining about some chore he has to do, he's about something he wants. Like here he was like "Stan was here? Did he drop off a video for me?" and then later Stan drops by his video. People like to say how Stan is like Henry's second father but it's more like he's his divorced dad  Like Henry seems to get to experience through him the dad who wants to be cool so is always entertaining him or giving him stuff.

Of course, it's also become a bit of a running joke that Stan's the same way. Like here of course he shows up for dinner and Henry's all "Hey, c'mon in! My mom cooked enough for everyone!" Meanwhile they've made a point of Paige almost always being part of dinner preparations, cooking meals regularly now with both Elizabeth and Philip. It's no longer like Paige being the latchkey kid making dinner but her cooking things up with her parents. There's almost something kind of old-country about it while Henry is the modern American kid amusing himself.

[gwhh]

Do we really know if that guy is died?  When we last saw him he was rolling around on the ground very hurt but still observably alive!  My favorite part for that fight was one guy runs off after one good punch and she takes the knife off the other guy and shows him how to really use a knife?

Why do all the adult men on this show hit on Paige and not Elizabeth, is that like an inside joke of that show?  Do the men NOT hit on her because they know that she will hurt them for doing that!!  Just another boring night with the spy family.

 

Everyone always says Pastor Groovey hair works for the KGB. 

Here A New idea:  Pastor Tim and/or wife work for the CIA!!!  

What you think of that idea??

Edited May 27, 2016 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, gwhh said:

Everyone always says Pastor Groovey hair works for the KGB. 

Here A New idea:  Pastor Tim and/or wife work for the CIA!!!  

What you think of that idea??

Hate to tell you, but that one's not new either!

[Tetraneutron]

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, I thought it was a good job trying to get information from a difficult to access asset.  And HE was the most likely of the bunch.  This is a very high security facility, and they needed it to be low key, no murders and Symtech for this op, because they still need William's cover protected.  Remember they are just trying to get William access codes here.  So traditional break ins wouldn't work.

Sure, up until the part where Don, straight arrow who does everything he's supposed to, leaves sleazy, scary, threatening strangers who are extorting him, alone in his highly secure office while he runs to the bank. Why would he do that? You would think that for someone whose instinct is to protect himself, he would worry that colleagues would just walk into his office in the middle of the workday. It's just that the whole point of the op was to get alone time in Don's office. And in order to do that, Elizabeth befriends YoungHee for a year, gets close with her, seduces Don (sort of), lies about a pregnancy and then pretends to kill herself so people posing as her family can scare Don into leaving his office on an errand. All on the off-chance they find the codes, which, apparently, they don't. And the plan was so specific they even needed to bring a sixtysomething lady computer expert from Russia! It's not at all a good plan given how long they spent setting it up. Especially since it didn't even work. 

I don't think Elizabeth is seducing Tim. That's not how his character's been written at all. E and P were trying to get at him by appealing to his idealism. But wouldn't it be funny if Paige being forced to spy on Tim soured her on the church, and on religion, leaving her searching for a new thing to give her life purpose? And then, conveniently, Elizabeth is ready to tell her about the wonders of communism. It really couldn't work out better from Elizabeth's POV. 

[hellmouse]

8 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Sure, up until the part where Don, straight arrow who does everything he's supposed to, leaves sleazy, scary, threatening strangers who are extorting him, alone in his highly secure office while he runs to the bank. Why would he do that? You would think that for someone whose instinct is to protect himself, he would worry that colleagues would just walk into his office in the middle of the workday. It's just that the whole point of the op was to get alone time in Don's office. And in order to do that, Elizabeth befriends YoungHee for a year, gets close with her, seduces Don (sort of), lies about a pregnancy and then pretends to kill herself so people posing as her family can scare Don into leaving his office on an errand. All on the off-chance they find the codes, which, apparently, they don't. And the plan was so specific they even needed to bring a sixtysomething lady computer expert from Russia! It's not at all a good plan given how long they spent setting it up. Especially since it didn't even work. 

I don't think Elizabeth is seducing Tim. That's not how his character's been written at all. E and P were trying to get at him by appealing to his idealism. But wouldn't it be funny if Paige being forced to spy on Tim soured her on the church, and on religion, leaving her searching for a new thing to give her life purpose? And then, conveniently, Elizabeth is ready to tell her about the wonders of communism. It really couldn't work out better from Elizabeth's POV. 

We don't know yet that it didn't work - they did copy all his files, so that might still yield results. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

All on the off-chance they find the codes, which, apparently, they don't. And the plan was so specific they even needed to bring a sixtysomething lady computer expert from Russia! It's not at all a good plan given how long they spent setting it up. Especially since it didn't even work. 

I think it actually does make sense. I mean, they want to get into this office, which is difficult. Either there's no way to do it, or they figure out a way to get into be alone in this office. They had to come up with a family that would have been there and looked non-threatening and part of the family. They got everything off the guy's computer.

Of course it might lead to nothing and it could easily have failed but...isn't that the way with everything they do? It's really just logical that almost every operation would take a long time because you don't build up trust in someone in just a few weeks.

[scartact]

I don't think they came into this operation with Elizabeth already deciding to frame Young Hee's husband in this very specific way. I get the sense that they were more or less at something like Plan C or D at that point in the operation, and even then, it was definitely erring on the side of, "This could ultimately be fruitless," because Don just wasn't a good target. The potential pointlessness and senselessness of this entire operation also connects back to Elizabeth's final conversation with Pastor Tim in a way, and him telling her that regardless of faith, belief, and prayer, what's more important is how you treat people.

This must also connect Elizabeth back to her perceptions of Philip and his actions, as in their fight in David Copperfield. While she refers to people like Martha and Gregory as agents, Philip wants to humanize them and it's more important for him to consider them (and especially Martha) as actual people. These are things Elizabeth has to hear in order to change and grow past where she is at, and it's interesting that in her conversation with Pastor Tim, while she asks her questions on a more abstract level about belief, Pastor Tim brings it back to a very real and concrete place by talking about relationships between people. To bring it back to Young Hee and Don, this also reflects and re-frames her struggles with completing this mission. Her core struggle is carrying out and "practicing" her beliefs by doing the mission, yet her friendship with Young Hee, Don, and their family has grown very important to Elizabeth that it actually weakens her resolve enough that she wants the Centre to consider alternatives. I realize I went off on a slight tangent, but It's a very interesting and layered way of thinking about how all these elements are informing one another.

[AliShibaz]

19 hours ago, molshoop said:

I agree.  I also don't like Noah Emmerich as an actor.  I think his line readings

are flat and full of odd pauses.  Sometimes he doesn't even seem " present" in a scene.

I have always thought the casting of Noah was deliberate. He often comes across as a fairly dopey fellow. He fails to notice many things. He talks out of school. Despite what we've heard about his being a great undercover FBI agent, from all that we've seen, he's really not that great. I think the show runners gave us this intentionally to allow us to enjoy the humor of our stars living next door to an FBI agent who just can't seem to figure things out. His partner Adherhold seems like a very inexperienced agent compared to Stan but he figures out way more stuff before than does.

I always get a chuckle out of Stan watching movies and playing video games with a little kid.

Edited May 27, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Bannon]

Even the notion that Don would invite the trio into his office to discuss the matter is stupid. Don is supposed to want to keep this under wraps. Why the hell would he invite them into the facility? Anybody with a room temperature I.Q. would simply inform his immediate supervisor he'd be out for an hour or two to attend to personal business, and then go with the group to some public, but empty, space. The trio, of course, would insist on going to Don's office, at which point Don, assuming he can outthink a mollusk, would say to himself, "Why is it important for these people to get into my office? Why can't I remember anything after a couple glasses of wine with my wifie's beautiful friend, who now is supposedly dead? Why can't I have a role in a show where the writers don't portray all the antagonists as morons?"

Again, I've liked this show, but the sporadic laziness of the writing really has irritated me.

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Again, I've liked this show, but the sporadic laziness of the writing really has irritated me.

Sorry. I just can't go along with calling the writing lazy - no matter how sporadic.

First of all, the writing has to deal with several future episodes to which we are simply not privvy. I'm sure you understand there are several episodes that have already been written and taped and waiting to be shown but have just not yet been shown. There may be future events that will bring meaning to the writing which is just not yet apparent. From everything I've seen about the "behind the scenes" working of this show, "lazy" would be the very last adjective I'd ever choose to desecribe the people who work on this show and that includes the actors, producers, directors, show runners and all the rest. Seems to me that everyone who works on this show works incredibly hard to create the very finest product possible. IMHO, they mostly succeed. Sure, there are plenty of minor things we can find to complain about and it is fun to do that. No one is perfect.

But these people do a job that is head and shoulders above and beyond most every other show - even shows with much larger budgets (like Game of Thrones).

So, lazy? No.

Edited May 27, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Like a lot of people, I had been struggling to see how they were going to get Don to give up the codes. It makes a lot more sense that they weren't going to get him to give them up at all. But of course, the whole thing would have gone south if he simply said they should go outside and talk.

 

Nah, that's why the father was ill, along with giving the step mother the chance to take care of him and allow a two-person methodical search team.  Even if he had asked them to go outside with him, they could have stopped that cold.  First of all, the object here was playing on his shame.  I'm sure Philip would have become louder and even more on the verge of anger if this "hot shot who killed his sister didn't even have the courtesy to ask her grieving and sick father inside where it's warm and he could sit down!"  They were ready for different reactions, but they knew Don from Elizabeth's recon. 

She would have really slept with Don, rather than drug him, if he was susceptible to seduction though.

It's not as far-fetched a scam as we originally thought.  I mean think about it.  We'd seen the previews, we knew she was going to pull the pregnancy thing, some of us guessed that part even before that.  Still, we didn't guess the play here.  A play that has apparently been used quite successfully in several operations, not just by the KGB, but by our CIA, against people more well trained in subversive methods.  That's probably the most interesting thing talked about in the Podcast this week (linked in that thread, and in the Real Spy thread.)

[Umbelina]

That would be a different 80's than I lived through.  Many married couples might have a porn or X rated film or two around the house.  Hell, I used to find them when I babysat in the sixties.  The one Don had was completely low-key, or as Elizabeth said "strictly vanilla" stuff.  Now if they'd found a B&D film, they may have tried another play here, but that was nothing shocking.

[Haleth]

I think if anyone makes the connection between the dead mugger and Russian agents it will be Aderholt.  He seems to have an instinct for connecting the dots, like with the dead robot repair lady.  Good thing since Stan is oblivious to everything under his nose except the dinner bell.  Aderholt may end up solving the murder of Gaad too.

The whole Don storyline is tragic.  Elizabeth really seems haunted by how much she hurt her only friends; it's the first crack in her stony veneer.  Previously it was Philip who seemed on the verge of losing it, or at least showing regret for their actions, and considered running, but at the moment their roles have reversed.  Phil is back with the program and Liz is having doubts.  I wonder if toward the end of the series the writers will have them both decide that for the good of their family they've had enough and either go into hiding or cooperate with the FBI (much to Stan's amazement that he was living next door to spies all along).

[Umbelina]

Well, it could be Aderholt, but only if Stan happens to mention the church his neighbors go to, and I just think that would be a stretch.  Stan's the one that knows their connection, and Mathew may be concerned about Paige going to food bank twice a week when there was a murder recently right there.  Stan put plenty of dots together with Martha.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Umbelina

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, gwhh said:

Why do all the adult men on this show hit on Paige and not Elizabeth, is that like an inside joke of that show?  Do the men NOT hit on her because they know that she will hurt them for doing that!!  Just another boring night with the spy family.

Because they're not "hitting on" her, they're threatening her. Sexual predators generally go for the more vulnerable target.

17 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

If it doesn't happen on screen, or if it isn't talked about on screen, as far as I am concerned it didn't happen.  If I am not going to cut other shows some slack for this type of  off screen crap, I am not going to do it for this one.  There is more than enough time to drop in a couple of lines of dialogue to fix this problem.  The writers just didn't do it.

I understand this viewpoint to a certain extent, but I don't think it really works with this show. There's a ton of stuff happening off-screen all the time that gets only occasionally alluded to (i.e. Phillip visiting Kimmie every week, Elizabeth maintaining the arrangement with Lisa, etc). It's baked into the structure of the show, because there are so many balls in the air at all times and they can't possibly touch on the minute details of everything without bogging down the more important elements of the story. 

In the case of Don and Young Hee, we know that Elizabeth was working them for a while before the time jump and all the way through it, and we saw her thoroughly search their house (after at least eight months where she must have already been digging) to look for any tiny thing she could use against Don. I think the implication that they'd combed over every piece of information about that family was clear.

[Ina123]

18 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

One little pet peeve to express here:

I love, love, love the show; love the characters.

But Pastor Tim... he just doesn't line up with any brand of American Christianity I've come across. The comment he made to Liz: "none of that matters" - in reference to her not believing in God, prayer, faith... followed by his comment "All that matters is how we treat each other". Again, nice notion. Very progressive and humanistic. Not particularly believable for many strands of American Christianity I've experienced - and I've experienced a lot of the spectrum. Sure, there are the very liberal, mainline elements of Christianity out there - but other things he's said - about his reliance on Jesus and the Bible and such - tell me he's not in that vein. But neither does he fit an evangelical mould either - too liberal and socially progressive for that. In other words, he doesn't really fit any vein. And I often find this with religious characters on television. They're too often either caricatures or simply untenable.

I agree totally. Pastor Tim and his church appear to be what I call New Agey. It's all about feeling good. NO traditional Christian church pastor would ever tell anyone that believing in God, prayer, and having faith didn't matter.

[ptuscadero]

Geez, Stan, way to barge in on someone's private dinner when it's clear that you're not welcome.

He's really beginning to get on my nerves. I want to bitch-slap him.

[Bannon]

6 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Sorry. I just can't go along with calling the writing lazy - no matter how sporadic.

First of all, the writing has to deal with several future episodes to which we are simply not privvy. I'm sure you understand there are several episodes that have already been written and taped and waiting to be shown but have just not yet been shown. There may be future events that will bring meaning to the writing which is just not yet apparent. From everything I've seen about the "behind the scenes" working of this show, "lazy" would be the very last adjective I'd ever choose to desecribe the people who work on this show and that includes the actors, producers, directors, show runners and all the rest. Seems to me that everyone who works on this show works incredibly hard to create the very finest product possible. IMHO, they mostly succeed. Sure, there are plenty of minor things we can find to complain about and it is fun to do that. No one is perfect.

But these people do a job that is head and shoulders above and beyond most every other show - even shows with much larger budgets (like Game of Thrones).

So, lazy? No.

I'm not going to debate you with regard to the semantics of "lazy". I will just write this. When writers advance plot frequently, as this show has done, by having people who should not be stupid acting in a very, very, stupid fashion, that isn't good writing. It has been a not infrequent weakness in this show, and while there are more elements of this show that I have enjoyed a lot; the two lead actors, many of the actors in secondary roles, the all time great premise, the development of the two main characters' motivations, I do think the writers have fundamentally undrestimated their audience.

This lack of trust in the audience has resulted in, too frequently in my view, making the show too much akin to the '60s and '70s "Mission Impossible" show, except with much, much, better actors. The reason it bothers me is that it didn't have to be this way. We don't need to have P & E running one largely succesful op after another, at breakneck speed, because the opponents are dumb. The show has been on for years now, and they really have still only had one competent opponent who got a lot of screen time, Larrick, and they killed him off quickly. I've said from the beginning that this show needs to be more like a John LeCarre character driven novel, and less like a Robert Ludlum plot driven potboiler. They have gone in the former direction often enough to keep me watching, especially this year, but this latest episode, right down to a scene with Killizabeth Bourne, really was a reversion to very bad habits. I hope they don't re-appear again soon.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Bannon
spelling

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth may honestly feel many emotions about Young Hee, and the Pastor connection is a way of understand these feelings, or coping with them, just in case the dude had any clues for Liz experiencing these new emotions, OR she may be working him to take some of the sole pressure for his management from Paige's shoulders.  Or both.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Nah, that's why the father was ill, along with giving the step mother the chance to take care of him and allow a two-person methodical search team.  Even if he had asked them to go outside with him, they could have stopped that cold.  First of all, the object here was playing on his shame.  I'm sure Philip would have become louder and even more on the verge of anger if this "hot shot who killed his sister didn't even have the courtesy to ask her grieving and sick father inside where it's warm and he could sit down!"  They were ready for different reactions, but they knew Don from Elizabeth's recon. 

She would have really slept with Don, rather than drug him, if he was susceptible to seduction though.

It's not as far-fetched a scam as we originally thought.  I mean think about it.  We'd seen the previews, we knew she was going to pull the pregnancy thing, some of us guessed that part even before that.  Still, we didn't guess the play here.  A play that has apparently been used quite successfully in several operations, not just by the KGB, but by our CIA, against people more well trained in subversive methods.  That's probably the most interesting thing talked about in the Podcast this week (linked in that thread, and in the Real Spy thread.)

It isn't a far fetched plan for a target with a drinking problem, or no experience with alcohol, or with a history of serial hook-ups. You can't count on being able to fool a person who knows what effect alcohol has him, and no history of not being able function once having a couple drinks, and no history of random hook-ups, to believe that this situation is simply one of a beautiful woman who I blacked out with, and impregnated,  and now is dead, according to some strangers who just showed up where I work with highly classified material. 

[Ina123]

The dinner clearly was planned to be special for Pastor Tim and Alice. Of course, when Henry invited Stan what could P & E do but be nice?

However, there should have been a scene after everyone left of them letting Henry know that you just don't go inviting people without asking your parents privately.

Stan apparently doesn't have many social graces. When he discovered it was a planned special dinner he should have just bowed out (probably with a 6 pack of beer). But Stan being Stan...

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, scartact said:

I don't think they came into this operation with Elizabeth already deciding to frame Young Hee's husband in this very specific way.

Elizabeth laid the groundwork for it from the beginning, though. I think it was always the plan they had, and Elizabeth was hoping they could find something better rather than this being something they came up with late. She had to go in with some plan to use for her character.

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

 

Even the notion that Don would invite the trio into his office to discuss the matter is stupid. Don is supposed to want to keep this under wraps. Why the hell would he invite them into the facility?

 

I honestly don't see Don's thinking as so odd here. His office is private. Why would he rather go to a public place? He gets them out of the lobby where they might make a scene (where we know they will make a scene in fact). And of course they would expect to go to his office and be offended if he didn't take them in there--as Umbelina pointed out, they even had a sickly dad for that purpose.

To me the biggest stretch was his acceptance of sleeping with her, but at the same time I can imagine a guy being naive enough to just assume that's the only way it could have gone down. But then, if he hadn't bought it, Elizabeth would have just aborted the plan.

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Society has significantly changed since the early 1980's.  Back then, for some, just the viewing of porn would be considered a betrayal in someone's marriage.  Hell, in some cases, just having an issue of Playboy in the house would cause a lot of friction.  For example:  "You are already married to me.  What do you need that for?". 

But we're not talking about friction in a marriage. We're talking about what a culture (in this case one heavily influenced by Korea) considers shaming to the family. There's nothing particularly contradictory about a man having porn at home in his bedroom but blanching at the idea of shaming his family with an illegitimate child via a drunken one-night stand or an angry family demanding retribution after he caused a woman's suicide by getting her pregnant and telling her to have an abortion. 

 

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If it doesn't happen on screen, or if it isn't talked about on screen, as far as I am concerned it didn't happen.  If I am not going to cut other shows some slack for this type of  off screen crap, I am not going to do it for this one.  There is more than enough time to drop in a couple of lines of dialogue to fix this problem.  The writers just didn't do it.

I don't think this is cutting anybody slack. The show very clearly made the decision that we didn't need to see the planning stage or even know the end game, because what was important to the show was the emotional situation for Elizabeth. We know they do a lot of research as a matter of course. We didn't see them discover that Young Hee was a Mary Kaye salesman, that Don had security clearance, that he was the person they should target, that he was open to this kind of operation. Since we know they studied this guy there's no reason we have to specifically know how they made sure he hadn't had a vasectomy. It's not even like vasectomy is so common it would be a much of a potential fear.

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Pastor Tim and his church appear to be what I call New Agey. It's all about feeling good. NO traditional Christian church pastor would ever tell anyone that believing in God, prayer, and having faith didn't matter.

Which is why you wonder why Paige is always studying that Bible (without either her or her Pastor ever seeming to quote Scripture or refer to anything in it in their understanding of the world--the one time I remember that happening was Tim referring to Jesus telling the apostles to not attack the soldiers at Gethsemane). They both seem almost apologetic about anything too Jesus-y, even with each other. A lot of the heart of that whole development was Paige becoming part of this whole community and making that part of her identity, a community that would take certain concepts for granted and normalize them for her but that never really happened--except with the more political stuff which was common ground anyway. Given the way Paige threw herself into it all I actually would have expected her to be competitive about just how Evangelical she could sound if she was in a church like that. The conflict between New Age "praying feels weird at first but it kinda helps you should try it" and Elizabeth's beliefs is very different than the one between Elizabeth's beliefs and a more robust Evangelical church, even one that was more politically liberal.

In fact, we saw that more with Viola in Season One. 

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I have no clue what is up with Elizabeth and Pastor Tim.  Is she trying to find out if a tape exists, or is she considering talking to him about her past sins?  I just can't imagine her exposing herself, but it is clear something is going on.  Maybe she is just going to make up crap, just to get closer to the Pastor.

I think that opening scene is important there. The Pastor Tim who shows up at their house is a very different guy than they've ever dealt with before. He's not only being humble and apologetic, but he's specifically talking about how he feels bad about the situation with them. It makes sense to me they'd immediately talk about that and consider how to encourage it.

A friend of mine had a funny take on those scenes. She felt like Pastor Tim was like "Okay, I'm trying to be helpful here but...you're becoming kind of a pest."

Edited May 27, 2016 by sistermagpie

[madam magpie]

Quote

Elizabeth isn't aging all that well.  She does give that, "don't screw with me", look.  She doesn't look the least bit approachable.

Elizabeth isn't aging well?? That may be the most shocking thing I've read here. I don't typically want to get into debates about who's better looking, but from where I sit, Keri Russell (and Elizabeth) is stunning. And I don't mean that in a "it's not feminist to comment on women's looks" sort of way. I mean it in a "holy shitballs, she's pretty" sort of way.

I agree with the poster upthread who said the creepy guys go for Paige because she's young. They want to threaten her, but also we've really sexualized youth so it makes sense that she's the one they'd target.

[Umbelina]

What bothers me is that people are still talking about rape as if it's an "attraction" or in any way simply a guy being turned on by the way someone looks.  Rape is about control, about power, about domination, it's not about normal sexual attraction.  Babies are raped, grandmothers are raped, it's about POWER and violence.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Umbelina

[madam magpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What bothers me is that people are still talking about rape as if it's an "attraction" or in any way simply a guy being turned on by the way someone looks.  Rape is about control, about power, about domination, it's not about normal sexual attraction.  Babies are raped, grandmothers are raped, it's about POWER and violence.

That whole scene was about power and who's got it. Paige and the two creepy guys do not. Elizabeth, of course, does...physically with the creepy guys, mentally with the Groovyhairs, despite their tape, and on some level emotionally with Paige. But I do think her goal is to teach Paige where the power is (in this case, emotional manipulation) and how to hold it.

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I honestly don't see Don's thinking as so odd here. His office is private. Why would he rather go to a public place? He gets them out of the lobby where they might make a scene (where we know they will make a scene in fact). And of course they would expect to go to his office and be offended if he didn't take them in there--as Umbelina pointed out, they even had a sickly dad for that purpose.

To me the biggest stretch was his acceptance of sleeping with her, but at the same time I can imagine a guy being naive enough to just assume that's the only way it could have gone down. But then, if he hadn't bought it, Elizabeth would have just aborted the plan.

 

 

 

No office in a highly secure facility is private, when it involves visitors without a security clearance. It doesn't make any sense, even before we get to the wholly incredible aspect of two of those visitors being left alone, while Don left the building. It's not quite as stupid as the head of the CIA's Afghan group having a tape recorder planted on him, with tapes regularly switched out, after it becomes onvious that his identity is known to the opposition, but it is pretty close.

What irritates me is that better resolutions to the Young Hee operation were available. This is an unforced error.

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What bothers me is that people are still talking about rape as if it's an "attraction" or in any way simply a guy being turned on by the way someone looks.  Rape is about control, about power, about domination, it's not about normal sexual attraction.  Babies are raped, grandmothers are raped, it's about POWER and violence.

Also, just for accuracy, these guys aren't usually picking Paige over Elizabeth because this is the first time Elizabeth was there. And what happened was they asked Elizabeth for a cigarette and noticed Paige when she told them about the drugstore (a nice little class marker there with Paige acting like the guy could just buy a pack of cigarettes). They laughed and turned their focus on her, enjoying that she looked scared.

The other times Elizabeth wasn't there. Paige was with Henry once and the guy wasn't actually specifically sexually threatening, though giving her the beer made it seem like he'd try to take advantage of her. When he got hostile he wasn't leering at her. The very first time was in the mall where the guy's threats were at least partly there to taunt Philip in a gross masculine power play. 

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

No office in a highly secure facility is private, when it involves visitors without a security clearance.

I just meant private as in being a room with a door he could shut.

[jrlr]

19 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

For the record, I personally wasn't questioning whether Pastor Tim is admirable or not. I was merely pointing out that he's not a realistic character, as it pertains to the context of American Christianity as it really exists. As I pointed out, there are certainly churches and pastors on either end of the spectrum, but Tim's church treads a middle ground that, to me, comes across as suspiciously untenable and unrealistic. Churches that are heavy into progressive social justice issues, and would consider it good conscience to give safe harbor to known spies, are not the same pastors who lead and expect their congregants to be highly conversant in the Bible - mainly because if they're progressive like that, they're post-literal when it comes to theological interpretation. Thirdly, I certainly don't believe for a second that there is one definition of American Christianity - far from it; it really is a pretty broad spectrum. However, there are still points along that spectrum where churches tend to converge, and none of the points I'm aware of (in real life) fit Tim and his church. 

I agree with everyone who identified Pastor Tim's church with Unitarianism because that's exactly what I thought when he was talking to Elizabeth.  Also, a friend's father is an extremely liberal pastor at a United Church of Christ, which affirms the belief in Christ but also strongly pushes social justice - I think each congregation kind of does their own thing within certain covenantal guidelines, but it's completely not my bailiwick so I'm not sure. 

This question is not meant to be offensive, but is that phrase "post-literal (when it comes to) theological interpretation" a commonly accepted phrase?  It kind of startled me when I read it; I certainly understand what it means, but it's not something I've every heard or read before.   

[Morgan of Hed]

I'm wondering if they will be able to track down the surviving attacker before the cops get to him.  If Paige hadn't been there, Elizabeth would have run him down and eliminated the witness.  She was forced to leave a loose end lying around.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Morgan of Hed

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The dude needs to start brewing his own beer, it would give him something to do other than being a big pain in the ass. Of course, I don't know if people brewed their own beer back then.  He could start his own business, he just isn't cutting it as an FBI agent.

By any chance, are you referring to that ATF agent from Breaking Bad? If so, that enterprise did not work out very well for him. Stan is unlike most any other FBI agent I have ever known. I really do not understand Stan. He is a very different kind of FBI agent.

[Darrenbrett]

14 minutes ago, jrlr said:

I agree with everyone who identified Pastor Tim's church with Unitarianism because that's exactly what I thought when he was talking to Elizabeth.  Also, a friend's father is an extremely liberal pastor at a United Church of Christ, which affirms the belief in Christ but also strongly pushes social justice - I think each congregation kind of does their own thing within certain covenantal guidelines, but it's completely not my bailiwick so I'm not sure. 

This question is not meant to be offensive, but is that phrase "post-literal (when it comes to) theological interpretation" a commonly accepted phrase?  It kind of startled me when I read it; I certainly understand what it means, but it's not something I've every heard or read before.   

That's a very common notion, yes. Many mainline churches, for example, don't take the Adam and Even Eden stories to be literal depictions of history - but allegories - representational of abstract theological truths. The same goes for Noah and the Ark, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. One of my degrees is in Biblical history, so I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. Church movements that have followed the postmodern trajectory of interpretation don't look to the Bible as a rule-book, or strict, once-and-for-all manual for Christian living like evangelicals do. It's sometimes curious to hear the two parties (pre-modern churches and postmodern churches) talking to each other about the Bible (or reality, for that matter) because they tend to mean completely different things while using the very same words. The overarching worldviews are very different.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[scartact]

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth laid the groundwork for it from the beginning, though. I think it was always the plan they had, and Elizabeth was hoping they could find something better rather than this being something they came up with late. She had to go in with some plan to use for her character.

Reflecting on when she first started the Young Hee operation, I'm not sure if I necessarily buy Elizabeth always planned to faux-seduce Don and make him believe she was pregnant from their one night stand, kill off her character, and then have Gabriel and Philip there to finish off the last part of the mission. I am willing to buy that for whatever reason they saw Don as their best way in and that Elizabeth sussed out Young Hee as the best way to Don. I'm sure coming in she had a plan, but I'm not so sure I would buy this as their specific first plan just because so much of it rides on simple human error. But then again, I could be wrong because we didn't know the full scale of this (rather convoluted) mission until now.

I may also be projecting aspects of my frustration with the overall Young Hee/Don storyline on a plot level, but I still feel a tad ambivalent about why the writers kept so much information back about the entire reason for Elizabeth's mission. Though, I definitely think part of doing that was probably to allow us to focus more on Elizabeth's emotional arc throughout this storyline.

 

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

What irritates me is that better resolutions to the Young Hee operation were available. This is an unforced error.

Perhaps this is out of place to ask since it's more speculative of alternate routes, but out of curiosity, what do you think would have been better resolutions to the Young Hee operation? I mean, the biggest thing I can't get over is Don willingly letting Gabriel and that lady stay in his office alone, but I can sort of circumstantially understand it from the perspective of the probable massive amounts of guilt and shame he probably felt for what happened to Patty affecting his ability to think clearly. I'm not sure. I know you've been the more vocally critical about the writers writing stupid characters in service of making Elizabeth and Philip successful in their operations, but I also think sometimes emotional responses do run contrary to what may be considered a smarter decision.

[Umbelina]

What's interesting to me is that this exact operation has been used successfully by the CIA, and no doubt, the KGB as well.

I like that they didn't tell us more, we were all speculating about if, and none of us guessed it.  It lent more believably to Don not guessing it either in a way, since we had MUCH more information that he did.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, scartact said:

Reflecting on when she first started the Young Hee operation, I'm not sure if I necessarily buy Elizabeth always planned to faux-seduce Don and make him believe she was pregnant from their one night stand, kill off her character, and then have Gabriel and Philip there to finish off the last part of the mission. I am willing to buy that for whatever reason they saw Don as their best way in and that Elizabeth sussed out Young Hee as the best way to Don. I'm sure coming in she had a plan, but I'm not so sure I would buy this as their specific first plan just because so much of it rides on simple human error. But then again, I could be wrong because we didn't know the full scale of this (rather convoluted) mission until now.

But most of their plans ride on simple human error. I think it's more that they went in with this plan as the only thing they had and hoped to find anything else. It's really not that convoluted-or at least no more so than any other plan would be that involved trying to get this guy to give them access to codes. He's not vulnerable for straightforward things like money or blackmail or sex, but he has a big capacity for shame. That means creating a shameful situation, which is going to require some elaborate machinations. When Elizabeth was brought home to the house for the first dinner she hit the very notes of the eventual plans--she made a point of toasting to Don the wine connoisseur. She made a point of talking about her brother, father and stepmother to Young Hee. All those things are what they eventually used.

Apparently just this sort of plot was commonly used on family men like Don.

[AliShibaz]

59 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What bothers me is that people are still talking about rape as if it's an "attraction" or in any way simply a guy being turned on by the way someone looks.  Rape is about control, about power, about domination, it's not about normal sexual attraction.  Babies are raped, grandmothers are raped, it's about POWER and violence.

I would like to see Elizabeth have a discussion with her daughter about rape. Paige will likely initiate some discussion about the mugging incident and I would guess she would begin by complaining about something - not by thanking her mother for saving her neck or praising her mother or even just asking how her mother ever learned how to defend herself like that and whether she could show Paige how to do likewise.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when E explains to Paige just how incredibly devestating it is to get raped and how it can make a person feel terrible for the rest of their lives. I'd love to hear her explain to Paige just how important it is for any woman to know enough self-defense (or carry a weapon) or something to prevent her from getting raped. I suppose that I'm being somewhat sexist. However, I'm fairly certain the crime of rape affects far more women than men. By that I mean to say that I've been convinced that women are the victims of rape far more than men are. I don't know of any exact figures. But that would just seem very likely to me. E does indeed know what it's like to be raped. If you recall that officer who voluntered to "train" her but actually raped her and called it a "perk or benefit of his job". It felt so great to see him get his just rewards. I would love to see the mugger who ran away get some kind of justice as well.

But, my point is that Paige needs to understand just how excellent E behaved in saving Paige from being raped or murdered. And if she doesn't understand that, I suppose it would be consistent with her nature. But it sure would feel wonderful to me if this was the turning point whereby she finally decided her parents were indeed wonderful people and not evil people and that she decided to do most anything she could to support them in appreciation for their protection.

I would be just ecstatic if this incident was a major cause of a shift in Paige's attitude that helped resolve all the problems with Tim and his Ogre wife. I believe that I would feel very justified in appreciating that development.

Edited May 27, 2016 by AliShibaz

[tennisgurl]

Finally got to watch the episode, and while not the most exciting episode, it was interesting. My thoughts...

The wig that Philip wore when he met with Don was by far his worst wig so far. Although I did enjoy seeing Gabriel out in the field. They did make him look pretty sickly, even though his coughs sounded really fake.

The conversation between Stan and Oleg was really interesting, and I have now watched the scene twice, and I still cannot tell how honest Stan was being. I can honestly buy the idea that this was a for real speech (he is just sick of all the death that has been following him, and does not want Oleg to end up with a bullet in his head due to his association with Stan), or this could be Stan continuing to work him, and make more of a connection to him, part of a long turn to turn him. Hell, when he brought up the death of Vlad, I half expected him to pull out a gun and shoot him. Either way, I do not at all think this is the end of their story line. Also, shallow note, Costa looked really great in that scene. 

I actually found myself interested in Pastor Tim for the first time, in more of a way than just a plot device. His scenes with Elizabeth were actually pretty interesting, with the two of them feeling each other out. I think Elizabeth is playing him, BUT is also honestly trying to unload some of her burdens. This most recent mission is clearly getting to her, and she is looking for an outlet. 

The dinner scene was way too short. What we got was great, in all its awkward glory, but I wish it had gone on longer and meant more to the plot. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, scartact said:

Reflecting on when she first started the Young Hee operation, I'm not sure if I necessarily buy Elizabeth always planned to faux-seduce Don and make him believe she was pregnant from their one night stand, kill off her character, and then have Gabriel and Philip there to finish off the last part of the mission. I am willing to buy that for whatever reason they saw Don as their best way in and that Elizabeth sussed out Young Hee as the best way to Don. I'm sure coming in she had a plan, but I'm not so sure I would buy this as their specific first plan just because so much of it rides on simple human error. But then again, I could be wrong because we didn't know the full scale of this (rather convoluted) mission until now.

I may also be projecting aspects of my frustration with the overall Young Hee/Don storyline on a plot level, but I still feel a tad ambivalent about why the writers kept so much information back about the entire reason for Elizabeth's mission. Though, I definitely think part of doing that was probably to allow us to focus more on Elizabeth's emotional arc throughout this storyline.

 

Perhaps this is out of place to ask since it's more speculative of alternate routes, but out of curiosity, what do you think would have been better resolutions to the Young Hee operation? I mean, the biggest thing I can't get over is Don willingly letting Gabriel and that lady stay in his office alone, but I can sort of circumstantially understand it from the perspective of the probable massive amounts of guilt and shame he probably felt for what happened to Patty affecting his ability to think clearly. I'm not sure. I know you've been the more vocally critical about the writers writing stupid characters in service of making Elizabeth and Philip successful in their operations, but I also think sometimes emotional responses do run contrary to what may be considered a smarter decision.

Don wouldn't leave them thete, for fear that when he got back from the bank, the security staff would be crawling all over them, and ready to grill Don. It just increases the risk for Don exponentially, and the writers are portraying Don as a guy who wants minimize his risk of exposure. It's just bad writing.

I think it wouls have been a lot more interesting for the Center to pressure E into finalizing the Don operation, over her objections that Don is just a crappy target for that kind of leverage, and then having the op go badly, without good results, while not being so disastrous that E is blown. Bureaucratic eff-ups, by higher ups out of touch with on the ground realities, is the way the real world works.

Look I'm trying to not be too harsh. The writers kind of half to rush the story, because the child actors can't be made to age faster, so a lot of stuff has to be packed into the period of early '81 to 'early '84. I do think they have underestimated their audience somewhat, however

[Umbelina]

Well, if as another poster said, Don was in charge of security, I doubt his staff would call him on the carpet.

They didn't get what they needed, at least not yet.

[stagmania]

I think there's a difference between bad writing and a character making stupid choices. People mess up. Security breaches happen because humans make mistakes, use poor judgment, miss things because of their own biases and self-absorption. If people in positions like Don's never broke protocol, operations like this would never work. But we know that they did and they do.

[scartact]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

When Elizabeth was brought home to the house for the first dinner she hit the very notes of the eventual plans--she made a point of toasting to Don the wine connoisseur. She made a point of talking about her brother, father and stepmother to Young Hee. All those things are what they eventually used.

That's a good catch @sistermagpie and I didn't notice that when I first watched that scene. I did focus on her setting up Patty's family life, which I assumed was to give her more tools at her disposal if they needed to further the operation in a different way (which, of course, they did) You're right that really all of their plans involve human error in some way and this particular one involved some really involved construct to produce shame for Don. I've just been reluctant to believe these were the already in-place constructed machinations from the start.

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think it wouls have been a lot more interesting for the Center to pressure E into finalizing the Don operation, over her objections that Don is just a crappy target for that kind of leverage, and then having the op go badly, without good results, while not being so disastrous that E is blown. Bureaucratic eff-ups, by higher ups out of touch with on the ground realities, is the way the real world works.

Look I'm trying to not be too harsh. The writers kind of half to rush the story, because the child actors can't be made to age faster, so a lot of stuff has to be packed into the period of early '81 to 'early '84. I do think they have underestimated their audience somewhat, however

I sort of think Elizabeth was getting indirectly pressured to finishing the operation. Part of that pressure is the one she naturally asserts onto herself to ensure she fully commits to her work, but the other I think comes very subtly from Gabriel, who does his best to keep her on track to ensure she fulfills her duties. If anything, the operation itself is more emotionally disastrous than plot-disastrous if that makes sense. And even then, we still don't know if they've actually found anything.

Anyway, I do appreciate hearing your insight since your point of view is quite different from mine and I don't mind if you're being harsh or not. Everyone will scrutinize anything they consume in different ways. I don't necessarily believe the writers underestimate their viewers, but to each his or her own.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I think there's a difference between bad writing and a character making stupid choices. People mess up. Security breaches happen because humans make mistakes, use poor judgment, miss things because of their own biases and self-absorption. If people in positions like Don's never broke protocol, operations like this would never work. But we know that they did and they do.

It's not just a stupid decision. It's a stupid decision that is obviously contrary to what that character's primary motivatiion, the desire to minimize the risk of his drunken hook up being exposed, has been portrayed as.

I understand a lot of people are going to differ with me.That's ok

Edited May 27, 2016 by Bannon
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