S11.E21: All In The Family

[psychoticstate]

I fucking can't stand Amara.  She is ruining this show for me. 

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

I fucking can't stand Amara.  She is ruining this show for me. 

Take heart @psychoticstate, I'm pretty sure they'll deal with her by the end of the season...so, only a couple more episodes to go and she'll most likely be gone. 

Feel better now? ;)

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

God Is Not A Helicopter Parent, Thank You Very Much

But what is it with the Big Guy and curling on Supernatural?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Rewatched.  Random thoughts below.  Mostly the same as I had the first time I watched the ep.  But then I read all the comments here and forgot what I'd been thinking because the discussion on here was so much deeper than my scattered observations.  But, for what it's worth, here ya go:

• The "Whatever it is he needs you to do" bit from Kevin doesn't bode well for the guys, imo
• K. First time through when Kevin got his 'upgrade' I thought "Is  he going to be the Ghost in the Machine now?".  I didn't realize that meant he went to Heaven until I read the comments.  Good to know.
• But why did guck cut him off?  Sounded like he was in a hurry.  Then later in the ep, he's sitting around in his boxers eating Chinese 'cause time's awastin'?
• Dean's "Holy Crap" just seemed off.  Like, that impressed him?  I'm sure they've seen witches, demons, and angels do things that were just as impressive.  Maybe it was because I didn't realize what it actually meant at first, so I was like, okay.  Big whoop.
• Babbling Sam is just adorable!  I also thought it was sweet how he still looked to his older brother for guidance in the situation.  He seemed kinda relieved when Dean pointed out he was babbling.
• Dean's posture was very interesting in this scene.  I'm not going to speak to what he said or how, because I think that's been covered much more eloquently than I ever could.
• Okay, maybe I will say something after all.  Plagues, wars, and slaughters I'm not sure it's fair to lay at God's feet.  I mean, there is the whole Free Will thing.  And imo, those are pretty much humans' fault.  But the Apocalypse?  That's what Dean should have put out there.  Both of their times in Hell.  Yeah, that's what I blame on guck.
• Sam's face during that part of the conversation was interesting.  I could see the wheels turning, the 'wow' factor wearing off and Sam thinking more objectively and realizing Dean was right.  That didn't quite come out right.  Not that he needed to realize that Dean was right, or didn't already, I just think he was in too much shock and 'Awe' mode to remember all the crap guck let happen, particularly to them both.  
• Complicated upbringing, guck?  Way to underplay it.  Try shitty.  Could have done something about that too.  Didn't have to let the demon get to Sam as a baby. At the very least, didn't have to let it kill Mary.  Thanks for nothing.
• Something about that conversation about Lucifer doesn't sit right with me, but I can't pin it down.
• Did Amara not realize Cas was inside until she knocked Lucifer out?
• Cool search programs they've got on their computers.  I'm a nerd like that.
• I don't know about everyone else, but I always stand outside instead of running back in and closing the doors and windows when there's a strange fog and people are staggering around the streets.
• I want to know what crappy old folk songs guck sings.  I've got a name?  This land is your land?  If I had a hammer?
• I still like that Dean told guck to cool it.  I still don't like that Sam wanted to ask about ears, of all things.  I mean, asking about giraffes or platypuses (platypi?)  or fuzzy caterpillars, I understand.  Those are weird. But ears?  Pfft.  Please, Sam.  
• Good for Dean for coming clean with Sam right away about his visions of Amara.  There was a time he wouldn't have.  
• Funny how Sam shushed Dean when guck walked in.  Yeah, because I'm totally sure he couldn't hear what you were saying if he didn't want to.
• Of course guck eats bacon.  TBH, that'll probably tick off more people than guck being bi.  I laugh at both.
• People are just collateral damage to guck.  Nice.  Telling you, the Whatever he needs you to do spells major trouble.
• Come on, Dean reads.  He would have known Donatello was a Renaissance artist, even if he couldn't pin down sculptor vs. painter (I didn't.)  Then again, Mikey was always my favorite TMNT.
• When Dean started to tell Donatello the truth about Santa Claus, I LOL'ed.
• You know, even if Dean had it on his computer, guck didn't have to watch all that porn in one sitting.  Moderation, guck.  Moderation.
• Did Sam give Donatello a little shove down the stairs?  Damn, Sam.
• So guck doesn't have a problem with Donatello being an atheist, but earlier, he gave Dean the side eye about not always believing in him?  Huh.
• Haha.  Sam snatching his beer back from Metatron.
• Donatello's I miss being an atheist.  I feel ya, pal.
• Why did Sam stop to avoid hitting Amara?  Isn't she in a human vessel?  Should have hit the gas.
• It's going to be a bitch getting Baby out of the basement.
• guck heals Casifer's vessel but doesn't separate Lucifer from Cas?
• Dean knows about spa days?  If Sam had said that, Dean would have given him the side eye.
• Seriously, they just let Donatello go his merry way?  That doesn't seem like a sound plan. fellas. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
grr...grammar

[FlickChick]

53 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• It's going to be a bitch getting Baby out of the basement.

I think that Chuck/Guck put Baby in the bunker's garage where she belongs. ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

27 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I think that Chuck/Guck put Baby in the bunker's garage where she belongs. ;)

I don't know.  It didn't look like there was any room to turn the car around to me.  That and the stairs made me think basement. Or lower level at least.  But I don't know where the garage is located in relation to the rest of the main spaces, so...

[DittyDotDot]

That definitely wasn't the garage where Baby landed--it was some little cramped room--but that doesn't mean Chuck couldn't have snapped his fingers again and put her in the garage after. 

I'm sure they put her there because to get all those cars back is probably expensive.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sure they put her there because to get all those cars back is probably expensive.

Ah, geez...don't bring in real world logic!  That's no fun! ;)

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

that doesn't mean Chuck couldn't have snapped his fingers again and put her in the garage after. 

But I can also see him being kind of jerk (haha imagine that!) and not doing it, 'cause, you know, he already answered ONE prayer so he filled his quota already.

[DittyDotDot]

That could be a funny scene:

Dean walking around Baby trying to figure out how to get her out of there.
Chuck comes in, "Good luck, pal."
Dean: "Seriously!? You couldn't just do the thing with your fingers and take care of this mess you made?"
Chuck: "Eh, isn't it enough I answered a prayer this week, now I gotta do this too?" Chuck walks away.
Dean: "Dick."

Edited May 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

That could be a funny scene:

Dean walking around Baby trying to figure out how to get her out of there.
Chuck comes in, "Good luck, pal."
Dean: "Seriously!? You couldn't just do the thing with your fingers and take care of this mess you made?"
Chuck: "Eh, isn't it enough I answered a prayer this week, now I gotta do this too?" Chuck walks away.
Dean: "Dick."

LOL!  Now I need to see this!

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Dean knows about spa days?  If Sam had said that, Dean would have given him the side eye.

Maybe in s1 but Dean has evolved.

[KirkB]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Come on, Dean reads.  He would have known Donatello was a Renaissance artist, even if he couldn't pin down sculptor vs. painter (I didn't.)  Then again, Mikey was always my favorite TMNT.

I actually thought that scene would have been funnier if Donatello started to exasperatedly explain "not the ninja turtle", only to have Dean say something about having been to a museum. Though I agree with you about Mikey.

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why did Sam stop to avoid hitting Amara?  Isn't she in a human vessel?  Should have hit the gas.

I'm not sure if it is a human vessel or not. Do Chuck and Amara have actual physical forms? I mean, Amara popped out of her billion year cage with curly hair and a long black dress, it didn't look like she had time to find a new body. But even if it is a human body, I'm not sure running over the sister of God would be a good move for Sam or end well for Baby.

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It's going to be a bitch getting Baby out of the basement.

Nah, Dean will just follow Chuck around and bug him until he snaps his fingers again and puts her back where she belongs.

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, KirkB said:

actually thought that scene would have been funnier if Donatello started to exasperatedly explain "not the ninja turtle", only to have Dean say something about having been to a museum. Though I agree with you about Mikey.

But that would require Buck Lemming to remember that Dean has a brain. 

43 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Nah, Dean will just follow Chuck around and bug him until he snaps his fingers again and puts her back where she belongs.

Not to mention him repairing the Chassis and put new tires on it.

[mertensia]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

• I want to know what crappy old folk songs guck sings.  I've got a name?  This land is your land?  If I had a hammer?

Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie are not crappy, though.  John Denver was the tail end of folk and while I like his stuff, I bet Dean wouldn't. 

[DittyDotDot]

The song he sang at the end of the previous episode--Dink's Song (or Fare Thee Well)--is an old folk song.

[Demented Daisy]

I thought the reference to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was a wink to their buddy, Stephen Amell.  Might have even been one of Jensen's infamous ad-libs.  I'm not bothered either way.  Dean never seemed that interested in art (not like Sam, anyway) and I wouldn't say that Donatello is one of the widely-known Renaissance artists.

At least his name wasn't Michelangelo.  Now that would have been ludicrous for Dean not to know, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, KirkB said:

I mean, Amara popped out of her billion year cage with curly hair and a long black dress, it didn't look like she had time to find a new body.

I thought we saw her 'grow up' this season (or was that season 10?) - which makes me think human vessel.  Also, since this is guck's creation, and Amara is his opposite, I think maybe that she would have to take a human vessel in order to even manifest herself within his creation.  (If guck is being and Amara is nothingness, how can nothing be something?)  Guck is another matter.  Since he made the world, and all it's laws of physics, he can pretty much do want he wants.  Just my off the top of my head probably completely inaccurate theory of course.  

12 hours ago, mertensia said:

Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie are not crappy, though.  John Denver was the tail end of folk and while I like his stuff, I bet Dean wouldn't. 

Well...maybe it was Kumbaya.  :)  Like you said, maybe Dean just wasn't a fan of whatever guck was singing.  And, imo, pretty much any song, no matter how much you like it can get old after hearing it too many times.  I can imagine guck singing the same thing over and over in the shower - probably just to annoy Dean after the first time he told guck to cool it.  

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Not to mention him repairing the Chassis and put new tires on it.

Who? Dean?  Yeah, that'd be a shame.  I hate those scenes of him working on Baby.  Absolutely despise them.  Oh wait.  No I don't.  

[MysteryGuest]

I got the impression since Dean said "I sleep!" when he was bitching about Chuck's singing, that said singing was happening either very early or very late in the day.  I'm not sure he would have liked anything Chuck was singing if he happened to be trying to sleep while he was doing it.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind having Amara appear to Dean initially as a full-grown woman, and then have her regress to infant, only to have her grow super fast back into that same grown woman.  If there was significance, it was lost on me.  I'm leaning toward simple plot device, since they wanted Crowley to attempt to align himself with her, and a child would be more susceptible to his charms.  And once those few episodes were over, they needed her back to full size so they could continue with the Dean/Amara icky sexual vibe, hence the rapid re-aging.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Who? Dean?  Yeah, that'd be a shame.  I hate those scenes of him working on Baby.  Absolutely despise them.  Oh wait.  No I don't.  

No, I mean Chuck needs to fix it. Dean doesn't have time to do that right now. LOL. It would take Dean at least 4 hours to get tires and put them on.  If the axles are broken and they should be, Dean hasn't got the time stop Amara and fix Baby ;)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I still don't understand the reasoning behind having Amara appear to Dean initially as a full-grown woman, and then have her regress to infant, only to have her grow super fast back into that same grown woman.  If there was significance, it was lost on me.  I'm leaning toward simple plot device, since they wanted Crowley to attempt to align himself with her, and a child would be more susceptible to his charms.  And once those few episodes were over, they needed her back to full size so they could continue with the Dean/Amara icky sexual vibe, hence the rapid re-aging.

I thought it was just a vision, not that Amara physically regressed. I thought Amara was born into this world as a human baby.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it was just a vision, not that Amara physically regressed. I thought Amara was born into this world as a human baby.

I'm not following. Which Amara? The one in the beginning with Dean or now?

If she was born into this world as a baby, then who saved Dean in the beginning?  Unless it's in-media-res which has kind of been my headcanon.

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it was just a vision, not that Amara physically regressed. I thought Amara was born into this world as a human baby.

I agree. I think someone even postulated that it was a vision of the future or a future that she was showing him.

As for what saved Dean - or moved Dean out of Baby, since Sam stayed inside the car and he was fine, I thought - Maybe Amara's essence, life force, whatever was in the fog, but then needed a human vessel to be stable in the world. Kind of like an angel maybe? Angels can swirl around on earth, but they need a vessel to properly interact with the world and not just be a "multidimensional wavelength of light."

[MysteryGuest]

Hmmm...I didn't get the impression that was just a vision, but who knows.  Still, God was able to just co-opt Chuck without the need to start out as a baby, so since Amara is basically his equal as far as God's go, why did she need to be "re-born"?  Why didn't she just take an adult vessel?  And did we ever figure out why she has the Mark?  I thought God gave the Mark to Lucifer, who then transferred it to Cain, who then transferred it to Dean.  Are we supposed to think that God gave her the Mark as part of the whole "lock and key" thing they were talking about?  Not much of this myth arc has made much sense to me, so I don't really expect a satisfactory explanation for any of it.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not following. Which Amara? The one in the beginning with Dean or now?

If she was born into this world as a baby, then who saved Dean in the beginning?  Unless it's in-media-res which has kind of been my headcanon.

I'm not sure I'd say Amara saved Dean as much as pulled him out of the car to have a chat with him. Judging by Sam surviving, I'd say Dean would've been just fine staying inside the car with Sam. However, I thought Dean was knocked out and had a vision of Amara while unconscious. I thought Amara didn't physically manifest in this world until she was born as that baby.

Personally, I believe why they had Dean talk to grown up Amara was for the "you will always help me" line from Amara so that when Dean did unwittingly help baby Amara, Dean would start to question if she was right and if he could actually stop her or not. To me, this is where Dean questioning himself and saying he wasn't able to kill her started.

 

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Hmmm...I didn't get the impression that was just a vision, but who knows.  Still, God was able to just co-opt Chuck without the need to start out as a baby, so since Amara is basically his equal as far as God's go, why did she need to be "re-born"?  Why didn't she just take an adult vessel?  And did we ever figure out why she has the Mark?  I thought God gave the Mark to Lucifer, who then transferred it to Cain, who then transferred it to Dean.  Are we supposed to think that God gave her the Mark as part of the whole "lock and key" thing they were talking about?  Not much of this myth arc has made much sense to me, so I don't really expect a satisfactory explanation for any of it.

No explanation as to why Amara has the Mark yet. I'm hoping it'll be answered by the end of the season though.

I'm not sure Amara had to be born as a baby, but I got the impression she was trying to experience her brother's creation fully. But, I think she needs a vessel of some sort in order for her to be seen on earth. Seems consistent with God, angels and demons on this show too.

[Aeryn13]

Adult!Amara also talked to her own little kid self via a mirror so IMO that was always the form she would take, to interact fully in the human world, she just had to go through a little metamorphosis first. I assumed those scenes in the fog in the Premiere where another plane of being where Amara could already exist fully formed.

Of course, I think the writers thought very little about the internal logic of it all. When asked such things, I always picture them saying "a wizard did it" and running away.

Quote

Still, God was able to just co-opt Chuck without the need to start out as a baby,

We don`t know that. Chuck could have been a created vessel or have been gone through the same rebith process as Amara. We only ever met him in his current Chuck-form and God has been missing for eons. That`s a shitload of unaccounted time.

What bugs me more and has always bugged me is everyone`s steadfast belief that Lucifer can be a valid player against Amara. The retconning of "all the archangels helped" vs. "God and Lucifer did it" aside, he is still just God`s creation. And Amara may have been nice enough not to destroy that one particular creation back in the day but God whined again how she always did it. 

If she is equal in power to God, then the only being that can take her in a battle fought with raw power is God. Anyone else is a lesser being. Pitting Lucifer against Amara is as ludicrous as putting him mano a mano against God and think he has a chance of winning. The other angels should have caught a clue when Lucifer cowered under the table with the rest of them when Amara so much as yelled up at Heaven.

I get rescuing Cas but again with the "Lucifer, you have to now work with us". And do what? It is pretty clear last time he was the fucking bait, nothing more. They have got this covered now. And Lucifer no longer serves this function.

Oh, and I can`t stress this enough: why is noone asking God how he did it last time? Maybe he wouldn`t answer but if I had a real powerful enemy and suddenly the one person who previously defeated them came around, that would be the first, second and twenty-eighth question I asked them. Aaaaargh.  

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, and I can`t stress this enough: why is noone asking God how he did it last time? Maybe he wouldn`t answer but if I had a real powerful enemy and suddenly the one person who previously defeated them came around, that would be the first, second and twenty-eighth question I asked them. Aaaaargh.  

Yeah, I wondered this too, does make your heroes look kinda foolish, doesn't it?  I also wondered why they haven't tried to also free Michael from the cage. Wouldn't it be smart to have two arc angels on their side? However, I stand by my thought that Lucifer is not the answer, Dean will be in the end. That's probably why they haven't had anyone ask God what it's going to take, they don't want to reveal that bit of it yet.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure I'd say Amara saved Dean as much as pulled him out of the car to have a chat with him. Judging by Sam surviving, I'd say Dean would've been just fine staying inside the car with Sam. However, I thought Dean was knocked out and had a vision of Amara while unconscious. I thought Amara didn't physically manifest in this world until she was born as that baby.

Dean was out cold in a field of flowers a mile away from the car when Sam found him. I don't think the car tossed him out on her own. So unless Dean got out of the car, leaving Sam alone in the Darkness vortex, closed the car door, wandered a mile away and passed out in the flower fields, I think something did take him out of the car. (Unless my ongoing head!canon that this is alternate/vision weirdness)

She might have just wanted a chat with him but he believes he saved her because she said "I helped you, you helped me".

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Dean was out cold in a field of flowers a mile away from the car when Sam found him. I don't think the car tossed him out on her own. So unless Dean got out of the car, leaving Sam alone in the Darkness vortex, closed the car door, wandered a mile away and passed out in the flower fields, I think something did take him out of the car. (Unless my ongoing head!canon that this is alternate/vision weirdness)

She might have just wanted a chat with him but he believes he saved her because she said "I helped you, you helped me".

Did I say Baby tossed him out? I thought I said Amara took him out of the car, but I'm not sure how that saved him. Perhaps she did, but considering that Sam survived without her assistance, I assumed she was speaking more metaphorical. I'm weird that way though.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Did I say Baby tossed him out? I thought I said Amara took him out of the car, but I'm not sure how that saved him. Perhaps she did, but considering that Sam survived without her assistance, I assumed she was speaking more metaphorical. I'm weird that way though.

I didn't say you said it, it was me trying to be funny. 

Sorry, I didn't see anything in your comment that made it clear you thought she took him out of the car. You just said that he was knocked unconscious and had the vision during the time he was knocked out. My bad.

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What bugs me more and has always bugged me is everyone`s steadfast belief that Lucifer can be a valid player against Amara. The retconning of "all the archangels helped" vs. "God and Lucifer did it" aside, he is still just God`s creation. And Amara may have been nice enough not to destroy that one particular creation back in the day but God whined again how she always did it. 

Based on what both Amara and Lucifer have said, Lucifer helped trap her by tricking her.  She trusted him, and he betrayed her.  So I'm thinking God used Lucifer as a lure or decoy of some type, and she fell for it because she didn't think he'd betray her.  I initially thought they'd try something similar this time, only with Dean as the bait, but as of this episode, she's already accused him of betraying her, so I think that option is gone.  That leaves us with either God taking her on himself, which he hasn't indicated he's willing to do, or Dean making some sort of deal with her.  I'm leaning toward the latter, myself.

[catrox14]

Here's what I don't get. How could Amara come to the conclusion that Dean betrayed her?

Because he came to see her under false pretenses? He never told anyone where she was because he didn't know. He doesn't love her. Anything he did to help her was because of this fucked up connection mind control thing. He TRIED TO KILL HER but that wasn't a betrayal?? The betrayal is because God showed up and demanded a pow wow with Dean even when Dean didn't ask for it?

Did she read his mind to see all the planning? Is that the betrayal?  How can there be a betrayal when one of the parties has never declared their love, commitment or fealty to the other party? So stupid.

For someone who is supposed to be so connected to Dean did she really not realize she makes his skin crawl? Or are we being lead to believe that Dean was in fact lying all this time and that he's really attracted to her in a romantic way?? If that happens, I might finally be able to let go of this show LOL

I can truly say I have never hated a Dean SL more than this stupid connection to Amara. I mean what a way to ruin a perfectly good Mark of Cain storyline. Bah...

Edited May 15, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I think she could sense God on him, either by reading his thoughts, which she'd never really shown the ability to do before, or by just sensing some "aura" on him.  I think she could accept the fact that Dean would be uncomfortable with their connection, and even go so far as to try to kill her.  She's not afraid of him because he really can't hurt her.  But if he's been aligning himself with God, then that's a betrayal.  I honestly thought she'd have done something to him at that point, so I have to assume that God zapped him to safety before rescuing the others.  It was sort of a weird scene, actually.

I still don't understand their connection.  It certainly seems sexual on her part, because she's always touching him (hey, who can blame her?), but he definitely doesn't like it.  On a very shallow note, I just find Emily Swallow to be strange looking.  I think it's probably mostly the makeup they use on her, but I can't get past her looks sometimes, and I fully know that's a horrible thing to say about another woman.  And yes, I'm ashamed of myself.  But as long as I'm admitting to these flaws, I have to say that at least they seem to have gotten the woman a decent bra.  There, I've said it, and now I'll never say it again.

Edited May 15, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

How could Amara come to the conclusion that Dean betrayed her?

Since she previously told him that should God talk to him to tell him about the Lucifer torture, it didn`t seem to be that he had indeed been talking to God. She knew her brother had resurfaced, she told Dean as much. What she saw as the betrayal is IMO that Dean came to the meeting she had requested not because she wanted a meeting or because he wanted to meet her also but to lure her away.

In other words, he came under false pretenses. At least in her mind. Since he had never promised anything, it is stretching it. But I do believe it cut too close to home since that seems to be exactly what Lucifer did back in the day. So I get her perspective on things. 

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's what I don't get. How could Amara come to the conclusion that Dean betrayed her?

IMO, Amara is a little messed up in the head and has built up this idea that Dean is devoted to her simply because he once bore the Mark. She's a tad delusional, if you ask me. But, after being locked up by herself since the beginning of time, I guess it's to be expected she's a bit off her rocker.

 

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say you said it, it was me trying to be funny. 

Sorry, I didn't see anything in your comment that made it clear you thought she took him out of the car. You just said that he was knocked unconscious and had the vision during the time he was knocked out. My bad.

I just don't know how I could've been any clearer:

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure I'd say Amara saved Dean as much as pulled him out of the car to have a chat with him. Judging by Sam surviving, I'd say Dean would've been just fine staying inside the car with Sam. However, I thought Dean was knocked out and had a vision of Amara while unconscious. I thought Amara didn't physically manifest in this world until she was born as that baby.

Edited May 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, Amara is a little messed up in the head and has built up this idea that Dean is devoted to her simply because he once bore the Mark. She's a tad delusional, if you ask me. But, after being locked up by herself since the beginning of time, I guess it's to be expected she's a bit off her rocker.

I just don't know how I could've been any clearer:

I clearly misread what you wrote or I would NEVER have said what I said. I'm an idiot. Again, apologies. I won't go back and delete what I wrote because that's pointless now. I didn't read it properly. What more can I say?

Edited May 15, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I don't think Amara's value/logic system is our value/logic system. She understands Dean doesn't want to be with her. Her voice softens, she approaches him like he's skittish.  But she seriously has no clue why he wouldn't want to be with her. It's not that she dumb. She can't wrap her head around it. Like why consuming souls was a bad thing.  I got back to Death's description - she's amoral.  I'd say she's other-moral, to stretch the English language a bit. What she values is by default not the same.  She is the Dark, God is the Light. God's creations are going to look at things differently.     

As for the "betrayal", as stated above, Dean implied he was there because she asked to see him.  He was really there to stall and to enable something she did not want (Lucifer's rescue).  Further, even though he tells her "there can be no us, we should just walk away", when she asks him "why don't you?" he can't answer.  Because his whole point in being their is to get her away. After looking into his face, I think she not only saw that he had spoken to God (and didn't mention it) but he was also there to trick her.  To think he wanted to talk when he just wanted her away from Lucifer.  She leapt to "betrayal" immediately because not only was it a trick but he implied he reached out because she asked to meet him. As in, he was there to see her.  She found that encouraging, despite his words. To find out it was a lie, well I think that's what she equates with betrayal IMO. 

I actually like the nuance to this element of the plot.  Dean has always been clear he opposes Amara's actions but that he's drawn to her.  He apologized the first time he tried to kill her.  It's not a connection of his choosing, but it's not a connection of her choosing either. She's all on-board with the connection, believes it's their ultimate destiny.  But with their brief interactions, she's 'helped' Dean. She stopped Crowley from killing him. She zapped him away when the Angel's were about to smite. Stopped Lucifer from killing he and Sam. That he wouldn't be in danger without her being here in the first place doesn't enter into the equation.  This is a being that dusts Angels with the flick of her wrist. And Dean knows it. I also suspect he's conflicted about his betrayal.  He doesn't want anything to do with Amara - but he knows on some level - she was right to call it betrayal. 

It's not "earth logic", it's "Amara logic" and Dean can kinda understand it a bit.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

He apologized the first time he tried to kill her.

When did he apologize? I really don't remember that.

[SueB]

Just now, catrox14 said:

When did he apologize? I really don't remember that.

When he went into Crowley's lair and her bedroom with the demon-killing knife.

Quote

Dean: I'm sorry, Amara.
Amara: For what.
Dean: For what I have to do. (camera focuses on the knife)

Then Crowley shows up and begins the evil monologue.
 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

When he went into Crowley's lair and her bedroom with the demon-killing knife.

Then Crowley shows up and begins the evil monologue.
 

Ah, right. Yeah that entire scene creeps me out so I blocked out much of it. UGH 

[MysteryGuest]

When she talks of Dean being one with her, I wonder if she means that he would then be an equal to her, or just along for the ride?  She really hasn't sold her plan very well, IMO.  Obviously, from her perspective, who wouldn't want to spend eternity floating around with her, but if she wants him to agree, she's really going to have to give a few more details.

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

Oh, and I can`t stress this enough: why is noone asking God how he did it last time? Maybe he wouldn`t answer but if I had a real powerful enemy and suddenly the one person who previously defeated them came around, that would be the first, second and twenty-eighth question I asked them. Aaaaargh.  

Well, they never bothered to find a list of seals in season 4 so they might have a clue what the last seal was, either. I mean I can fanwank that the angels spelled them not to think of it but just watching it I shouted "look for a list!" now and again.

[millennium]

On 5/12/2016 at 1:26 PM, catrox14 said:

This killed me. You know if this were any other show this would be submitted for an Emmy. For this scene alone. But they won't. Jensen's voice and face when he says "wars in your name" OH NOPE. That killed me. I really felt Dean's disgust and disappointment with Chuck more than his anger. I don't know how Jensen does it. But I can FEEL what Dean feels in these kinds of moments. But all the awards please.  

It was pitch perfect.   It made me regret that we don't see JA in other roles much, and also that due to typecasting he probably won't get a chance to do much serious acting once this series folds.

I guess this is an unpopular opinion, but I hate the Chuck character, and actually the whole Chuck storyline.   Runs a close second to the Leviathans IMHO.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

I can truly say I have never hated a Dean SL more than this stupid connection to Amara. I mean what a way to ruin a perfectly good Mark of Cain storyline. Bah...

I so agree. I hate the connection, I hate the lack of agency, I hate the squicky sexual vibes (although I dont think its really sexual for Dean, and does Amara even know what sex is?). Thanks goodness the MOTW this year have been great.

[Aeryn13]

Different strokes. If I didn`t have this storyline, I would have had nothing out of this Season. Normally when I couldn`t care less about the mytharc, I at least enjoyed (some of) the standalones but this Season, I thought they sucked balls.  

[catrox14]

Just FYI, I made a Chuck thread

 

[Actualized Peggy]

Quote

I'm not sure where they're going with this, but I'm not happy with Chuck/God.  He's a total liar.  He keeps telling the boys that Amara has warded herself against him, but in the very next scene we see her telling Lucifer to beg for his father to come to them?? Then he out and out denies that Lucifer helped to lock Amara up, only to have Amara talking to Lucifer once again about how he helped to lock her away.  WTH??  Either the writing was particularly atrocious on this one, or God's a big damn liar.

THANK YOU!

When Chuck said that he couldn’t find Amara because she had warded herself against him, I actually had to pause the show to rant at my husband about shoddy writing and massive plotholes. Amara has been trying to get God’s attention, to get him to show himself several times over the course of the season.  She’s flat out said so herself more than once, IIRC!

What’s interesting is that I immediately dismissed it as the writers screwing up big time, but I really like your alternate theory, MysteryGuest: Chuck’s is a lying liar who lies. Question is, why?

[psychoticstate]

On 5/14/2016 at 6:19 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Take heart @psychoticstate, I'm pretty sure they'll deal with her by the end of the season...so, only a couple more episodes to go and she'll most likely be gone. 

Feel better now? ;)

Yes, thank you, DittyDotDot.  I do.  Right now I am either ff'ing or deleting shows entirely that have Amara.  I hate doing that because I have watched this show from day one and I love JA/JP.  But I just cannot stomach Amara.  She needs to go - - and she can take Rowena with her on the way out.

[catrox14]

I've been meaning to note something that struck me on the first viewing that I thought was pretty cool and also kind of ominous.

I don't know if Thomas Wright who directed this episode went back and decided to frame his shot like Singer did his in 10.07 but I love the symmetry.

In 11.21 Dean has just finished finished telling Sam that Amara wants him for eternity to be one. Dean is disturbed and he turns to walk away first.  The camera lingers on Sam for a moment longer and then he turns and trails behind Dean a few paces on the right. But he's much bigger in the frame than Dean.

 

At the end of Girls, Girls, Girls, after Dean's confrontation with Cole, Sam asks Dean if he meant what he said about  'Being past saving', Dean says he was just telling Cole what he needed to hear. Dean shrugs and says "Let's go" turns and walks away first. The camera lingers on Sam as he considers what Dean has said then trails behind. Dean is on the left a few paces ahead of Sam who is trailing on the right.

In 10.07 the shot is bathed in darkness and red hues (akin to Dean's red and black shirt demon ensemble). 

In 11.21, the similar shot is bathed in soft light with Dean wearing the blue jacket of bad decisions( tm @SueB) .

And in both cases, Sam seems to be confronted with the same situation - Dean is losing and may be giving up to the power of something beyond Dean's control. As it turns out in both cases, it was the Power of the Darkness since Dean had the Mark in 10.07. I couldn't help but think...with Sam being larger in the frame in this episode will it again be Sam that drives the ultimate solution OR will Sam make a different choice and Dean goes on his own here. 

Oh and the music cue was the same for both closing scenes.

I dunno probably means nothing but it just really struck me because I don't think the show has often framed the boys like this so it stood out to me.

Edited May 16, 2016 by catrox14
more thoughts

[millennium]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've been meaning to note something that struck me on the first viewing that I thought was pretty cool and also kind of ominous.

I don't know if Thomas Wright who directed this episode went back and decided to frame his shot like Singer did his in 10.07 but I love the symmetry.

In 11.21 Dean has just finished finished telling Sam that Amara wants him for eternity to be one. Dean is disturbed and he turns to walk away first.  The camera lingers on Sam for a moment longer and then he turns and trails behind Dean a few paces on the right. But he's much bigger in the frame than Dean.

 

At the end of Girls, Girls, Girls, after Dean's confrontation with Cole, Sam asks Dean if he meant what he said about  'Being past saving', Dean says he was just telling Cole what he needed to hear. Dean shrugs and says "Let's go" turns and walks away first. The camera lingers on Sam as he considers what Dean has said then trails behind. Dean is on the left a few paces ahead of Sam who is trailing on the right.

In 10.07 the shot is bathed in darkness and red hues (akin to Dean's red and black shirt demon ensemble). 

In 11.21, the similar shot is bathed in soft light with Dean wearing the blue jacket of bad decisions( tm @SueB) .

And in both cases, Sam seems to be confronted with the same situation - Dean is losing and may be giving up to the power of something beyond Dean's control. As it turns out in both cases, it was the Power of the Darkness since Dean had the Mark in 10.07. I couldn't help but think...with Sam being larger in the frame in this episode will it again be Sam that drives the ultimate solution OR will Sam make a different choice and Dean goes on his own here. 

Oh and the music cue was the same for both closing scenes.

I dunno probably means nothing but it just really struck me because I don't think the show has often framed the boys like this so it stood out to me.

 

Did you mean to post this in the "You Know You Watch Too Much Supernatural When ..." thread?  :)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, millennium said:

 

Did you mean to post this in the "You Know You Watch Too Much Supernatural When ..." thread?  :)

Hahahaha. well played.  But I really did not. LOL

I LOOOOOVE that closing shot of Girls Girls Girls so much that I made it my phone's wallpaper for a long ass time. I thought when 10.07 aired that shot was important to Dean's arc. To me it looked like Dean walking into Hell again or was sliding back to demonity if he ever left it and Sam was behind him either going into battle with him, or to save him, or gods forbid kill him.

And I had the same exact reaction to the closing shot in this episode. What can I say! LOL