S05.E22: Only You / S05.E23: An Untold Story

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

They are rare like true love (tlks) and portals.

Also the sleeping curse that Zelena used on Dorothy is the same one Belle used on herself. 

I know TLKs have gotten more common, but that's different from saying a specific needle was used on dozens. It makes some sense that there would be more sleeping curse victims than TLKs to stop sleeping curses.

I think it's the one that Regina made for herself in the missing year, so that's two people it's been used on. Aurora and Charming's curses would have been from different needles. Snow and Henry had apples. Who knows what happened to Papa Hook but I certainly hope that needle's not a hundred years old.  

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Who knows what happened to Papa Hook but I certainly hope that needle's not a hundred years old.  

Well there isn't a big enough needle for his no good lousy ass. Plus his story is completely unclear, and since Maleficent is the creator of the sleeping curse, how old is she exactly? 

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She grabbed her coat and ran, and he didn't chase after her. You'd think that the non-magical frequent victim of magic who's just been magically saved would have been a great spokesman for not destroying magic, and he and Henry have a bond, plus he's shown himself to be good at tracking down people even in a strange world. But the writers wanted an Emma and Regina road trip, so they didn't let the characters react like any human being would. If they wanted Hook left behind, they needed a solid reason, like there was some crisis in Storybrooke he needed to help deal with.

It wouldn't have required much editing to rearrange the script to have the order of events make more sense. All they had to do was make the Hook/Snow/Charming/Zelena portal mishap and the Henry/Violet ditching town events happen at the same time. Then, they don't even have to deal with those pesky normal human reactions because Emma's only option would be to find Henry to save the magic because chasing after Hook and her parents was impossible. And then her parents and Hook wouldn't have the opportunity to react to the road trip or voice their opinion about being separated from Emma again. (Why couldn't we have had a heart-to-heart in the cage where Snow, Charming, and Hook vented about how they always get separated from Emma? Why don't their emotions matter to the writers?)

It was also strange to see Emma so nonchalant about getting Hook and her parents back when she was in NYC. It was like she knew they'd be reunited at the end of the episode, so instead she had to feel sorry for Regina the whole time. Why would the woman who just got back from failing her heart-split idea in the Underworld be so certain about restoring magic? It's like it never crossed Emma's mind that she wouldn't ever see her family again. The script for the stupid episode where Regina didn't check in after one fucking hour of Queens of Darkness shenanigans had script directions for Emma to freak out over a tiny incident like that, so why wouldn't Emma act just as freaked out in this instance? Just because Emma's walls are lowered now doesn't mean she's not allowed to still act emotional and be scared about losing her family.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I didn't understand the panic about something happening in Storybrooke. There was no magic in it for 28 years, it wasn't going to vanish off the map. 

Rumple totally played them, and these geniuses fell for it. 

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

How many other people are trapped in objects in that shop? I assume Henry has also seen Hook's hand there but that's no big deal, just another one of Rumple's trophies. Meanwhile, Hook feels guilty about some rings.

There are a bunch of hearts in Regina's vault too. Remember when we thought returning those hearts would have been a great redemption moment for Regina in S4? Yeah...

[Mitch]

58 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I really need to make a "makes no sense" keyboard shortcut macro for discussing this show. Anyway, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes:

1. Henry apparently decides that he needs to destroy magic after hearing Emma worry that Regina will turn into the Evil Queen after Robin's death. He's later acting like he's angry at Emma for believing that, even though Regina had admitted that it was true, and Henry actually seemed worried and like he was destroying magic to keep Regina from becoming the Evil Queen. So why was he mad at Emma if he was worried about the same thing? Besides, Regina doesn't need magic to act like the Evil Queen and be evil. She was ordinary Mayor Mills with no magical powers when she was gaslighting Henry, framing Mary Margaret, and generally making everyone in town miserable. Destroying magic wouldn't prevent Regina from being an evil bitch. Likewise, Rumple was still an ass who kept everyone under his power without magic. It's not about the magic, it's about the evil.
2.  

Well, then the argument can (and has been) used for gun control...guns dont kill people  evil people do it. However, I would sidestep that to go back to my original argument that if you know nukes could get into the hands of an evil dictator you would rid (if you could) the world of nukes. Magic in the hands of our villains is just that...Regina almost killed everyone a few seasons back with that stupid fail safe, Pan almost turned everyone into his slaves with the curse, Regina did do so. Magic can turn people into bugs and fish and those creepy dolls. Magic, is too much "power,"and I would agree its bad. The only thing that magic did good was bring back Hook (mileage varies on that) but he died because of it anyway. And bringing back the dead is creepy and weird and again, too powerfull.

Regina and Rump in a magic less SB were much less a danger then they are with magic. The only way they were a threat to begin with was again, because of magic, that kept everyone bow towing to Regina and anware of her true self, and magic gave Gold his fortune to lord over people.  A bitchy Mayor Mills with a tude is a lot different then a scenery chewing drag queen who can pull out your heart.

And on Henry and at least those dolls, in S1 Blue told Archie she couldnt bring them back, that they were dead, not just transformed.

[kili]

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And on Henry and at least those dolls, in S1 Blue told Archie she couldnt bring them back, that they were dead, not just transformed

They were also in Pan's shop in Underbrooke, so I imagine that they have unfinished business. Maybe if they were un-dolled in our world they would be un-dolled in Underbrooke and could move on.

But, they were never villains so who cares if they have to spend eternity as dolls or in the river of lost souls. We only worry about the happy endings for the villains.

[Camera One]

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It was also strange to see Emma so nonchalant about getting Hook and her parents back when she was in NYC. It was like she knew they'd be reunited at the end of the episode, so instead she had to feel sorry for Regina the whole time. The script for the stupid episode where Regina didn't check in after one fucking hour of Queens of Darkness shenanigans had script directions for Emma to freak out over a tiny incident like that, so why wouldn't Emma act just as freaked out in this instance? Just because Emma's walls are lowered now doesn't mean she's not allowed to still act emotional and be scared about losing her family.

I forgot about that whole freakout episode.  They don't try to give their characters human reactions at all.

Regina also couldn't care less when she heard they fell into the portal, "Again?" she said. 

And now that they knew the stakes, why wouldn't the FIRST thing they say to Henry is - they need magic to rescue their loved ones?  

Instead, there is some weird cut where suddenly Henry and Violet have run away AGAIN (?) There was no flow at all in the narrative.  That was the point when the episode started to fall apart.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Even Rumple in the hotel room was really drawn out and lacking in urgency.  I am assuming the candles were needed for the spell and not for ambience?  Why would he do magic in such an easily visible location?  It didn't take Henry five minutes to figure out where he was.  As usual, everyone swallowed the dummy pill.  

Why would Jekyll/Hyde immediately assume they were sent by Rumple?  Wasn't The Land of Untold Stories filled with random people from random realms?

What was the point of the whole Regina-pretends-to-evil charade which Rumple saw through right away?  Was it 4B again?  

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, Curio said:

All they had to do was make the Hook/Snow/Charming/Zelena portal mishap and the Henry/Violet ditching town events happen at the same time.

Yeah, that would have helped. Maybe start by having them all split up to search the town for Henry, with Emma and Hook sticking together, and they send the Charmings to supervise Zelena sending those back who want to go back, just in case. Then they're starting to get desperate, so Emma and Hook reluctantly split up to search and he runs into the portal gang just in time to get sucked in, and Emma knows this before she realizes Henry has skipped town. That adds a lot of urgency to her quest to find Henry. Though I guess it ruins the part where Henry destroys magic even after running into Emma and Regina because I would hope they'd have told him about the portal problem (even though they apparently didn't tell him right away about maybe destroying Storybrooke, so who knows ...). Maybe just have them all run into each other at the hotel so that Emma and Regina don't have a chance to tell Henry anything before he acts.

And yeah, if they have time to sit around and have long conversations about Regina's struggle against darkness, there's not a lot of urgency.

I didn't have as much trouble with Team Charming (and their pirate and witch mascots) because they were constantly trying to get back. They seemed to be focusing on one step at a time -- get out of the cage, get the wand fixed, get back. Hook was definitely on edge and impatient, even if he didn't specifically mention the fear that they wouldn't be able to get back. I know we've complained some about not getting to hear their conversation as they were stuck in the cage, but at least that meant that it didn't feel like they were hanging out and chatting instead of doing something.

I kind of think that we'd have had a better bridge to the next season if they'd managed to restore magic but the gang in the Land of Untold Stories was still there -- if they recharged the crystal with wishes but didn't open a portal. Yeah, it's another Emma and Hook separated cliffhanger, but it's a different separation cliffhanger with a different set of characters and that would have set up more sense of where the story could go. This ending is just sort of there -- nothing really new, since the Evil Queen is been there, done that, and not enough of a sense of what Hyde brought with him to have even an inkling about what might happen next.

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, XrystalPond said:

I normally appreciate the way JMo delivers lines, but there was something off about Granny telling her that the foursome was missing was a bit odd. It was not given any punch at all. The line was flat anyway so I can't say it was JMo as much as I think it was the direction and writing. It came off like it was like Granny told her that they were out of mustard.

It's possible she was told to go for exhausted. It would make sense for her to feel that way. Just tired of lurching from crisis to crisis. It's possible she was thinking this was just another day for Captain Swan. We don't know of course because why deal with Emma's neverending parade of shitstorms when we can spend another episode devoted to Regina's endless bloody redemption.

[Camera One]

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Then you have Snow saying they could be the family they were supposed to be.

 

That was gag-worthy.  Actually, Snow, Charming and Emma are supposed to be six feet under.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Camera One

[CTrent29]

["Violet tells him her mother died because of magic, so she's with him. He asks her to come with him, and she agrees, so Henry is no longer the stupidest character on the show."]


Henry is still stupid. Wait . . . I forget. He's still young and doesn't know any better. One day, Henry will have to find out that magic isn't the problem. The problems are his emotions, along with the emotions of others. Magic is merely a tool that many have used to solve their problems, just as they have used other tools. Then again, knowing this show, he'll probably remain stupid.

[CTrent29]

  3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

It's possible she was told to go for exhausted. It would make sense for her to feel that way. Just tired of lurching from crisis to crisis. It's possible she was thinking this was just another day for Captain Swan. We don't know of course because why deal with Emma's neverending parade of shitstorms when we can spend another episode devoted to Regina's endless bloody redemption.

Agreed. I just remember thinking at the time that they could have made that a moment where Emma punched back a little. When Regina said, "again," then Emma could have said, "Yes, just like when you separated me from my parents the first time."

But why have Emma show any feelings about Regina that aren't supportive? You know it wasn't like Regina hadn't been thinking about killing her boyfriend or plotting to kill her mother all those years.

Then you have Snow saying they could be the family they were supposed to be...which my husband even laughed about and said the Charming/Swan/Mills family was more dysfunctional than the Kardashians.

The problem with this argument is that Emma hardly ever pays the prices for her mistakes and crimes. Yes, Emma has committed crimes. Whereas, Regina is constantly paying the price for hers.

EVERYONE should pay the consequences of their actions. Emma rarely, if ever, does.

[InsertWordHere]

12 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

The problem with this argument is that Emma hardly ever pays the prices for her mistakes and crimes. Yes, Emma has committed crimes.

Emma has been convicted and done actual time for some of her crimes. Regina has not. Hook has not. Zelena has not. 

[Serena]

What price has Regina paid for mass murder and raping a man for 30 years? I seem to have skipped that episode.

[Curio]

9 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Emma has been convicted and done actual time for some of her crimes. Regina has not. Hook has not. Zelena has not. 

Emma also took on the Dark One curse, grew up in a crappy foster care system where she jumped around from home to home, has seen numerous loves die in her arms, and now has the burden of being the Savior which means her life will always be in peril. Oh, and she's being forced to be friends with Regina. That sounds like punishment to me.

However, Hook has actually done time for his crimes, we've just never seen it on screen. (Unless you count his Underworld torture.) He mentioned to Emma (after spending a few hours in jail in NYC) that he's spent his fair share of time being locked up in brigs, and Rumple was locked up in the Enchanted Forest and was kept in a cage for a good chunk of 3B. Regina has maybe spent...24 hours in a jail cell?

Edit: Sorry, I just realized you said Zelena, not Rumple. Zelena would have been jailed for much longer at the end of 3B if Rumple hadn't killed her, but she was also essentially imprisoned during Camelot when Regina put her on a metaphorical leash and made her mute. Basically, what it comes down to is that most of the villains on this show should be permanently behind bars, but some villains have suffered much more for their actions than others.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Regina hasn't paid for much really.

In 3A when Pan's curse was coming, her price was to never be with Henry again. But her price was also Neal's price. He has just found his son. It was Snowing's price because they would not be just separated from their grandson, but also from their daughter. It was Emma's price because she couldn't leave her son behind, so she left her parents instead, and the life she was building.

When Percival came at her, it was Robin who paid Regina's price. And to save Robin, Emma was the one to pay the price, not Regina. And when Robin died, it wasn't to save himself, it was to save her.

After slaughtering countless people, mowing down I don't know how many villages, enacting a dark curse that kept people in a catatonic state for 28 years, raping a man for more than 30 years, Regina is lucky she has people to call friends and family. 

Even Rumple paid more than she has. He lost his son. Forever.

I think Emma spending 16 years in the foster system, and most of her life alone, I think her being arrested for something she didn't do, giving birth in jail, and then having to hand over her child is punishment. I think that her trying to do the right thing by taking on the darkness, and all the shitstorm that happened after that is punishment. 

I think her being stuck as Regina's friend, and getting verbally beaten down is also punishment.

Edited May 19, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[InsertWordHere]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Basically, what it comes down to is that most of the villains on this show should be permanently behind bars, but some villains have suffered much more for their actions than others.

I was speaking of convictions, not temporarily being locked up, as Zelena and Regina were. I didn't mention Rumple because he has been locked up before. Hook's comment about being in his fair share of brigs is pretty vague. The previous poster specifically said crimes but didn't elaborate on what those crimes were so I was making a general comment on how Emma has been directly punished for her crimes in a way the other criminals have not. 

[Mitch]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Regina hasn't paid for much really.

In 3A when Pan's curse was coming, her price was to never be with Henry again. But her price was also Neal's price. He has just found his son. It was Snowing's price because they would not be just separated from their grandson, but also from their daughter. It was Emma's price because she couldn't leave her son behind, so she left her parents instead, and the life she was building.

When Percival came at her, it was Robin who paid Regina's price. And to save Robin, Emma was the one to pay the price, not Regina. And when Robin died, it wasn't to save himself, it was to save her.

After slaughtering countless people, mowing down I don't know how many villages, enacting a dark curse that kept people in a catatonic state for 28 years, raping a man for more than 30 years, Regina is lucky she has people to call friends and family. 

Even Rumple paid more than she has. He lost his son. Forever.

I think Emma spending 16 years in the foster system, and most of her life alone, I think her being arrested for something she didn't do, giving birth in jail, and then having to hand over her child is punishment. I think that her trying to do the right thing by taking on the darkness, and all the shitstorm that happened after that is punishment. 

I think her being stuck as Regina's friend, and getting verbally beaten down is also punishment.

I still don't know why those nimrods didn't have Regina's victims confront her in Hades...as someone upthread mentioned, it would have made her scene (which I think Parrilla did an excellent job with, speaking of, she looked like an old school movie star through most of this episode...) have more emotional impact.   As someone else also pointed out Hades was just a red tinted SB place....they should have made it a worse place, with Hades power and life (since his heart does not beat) drawing from the pain of others regrets and he gets a special jolt out of torturing the living visitors to teach them a lesson( maybe instead of Zelena's kiss it is the energy from the living which starts his heart and gets him to our world.)  Instead of being in LURVE with Zelena he should have been just getting stoked on others pain and anquish (which would turn Zelena on I am sure..) I thought a great scene would be for Hades to torture all the living with scenes of the things that they regret the most, and to have it a loop until they make it right and break out. Snow's and Charming would of course (to please this board for one thing) that they lost Emma, etc. I think Hades would keep a special punishment for Regina where she is locked, living her killings over and over again while the souls torture her.  If they wanted to make her a hero and get them out of Hades, they could have done that....Regina absorbs all their pain as her own, feels regret and the souls depart...(depleting most of Underbrooke.) Instead of yet another stupid portal that alone would start to break down Underbrooke and the rest of the souls would see hope and also leave...making Hades have to go to SB to get his revenge....(no taking over SB again, just revenge pure and simple.)

Sorry, a tangent, but I don't understand why, if this big episode was Regina letting go of the EQ, they missed a big moment in the dumb Hades storyline.

[kingshearte]

22 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I wouldn't put it past them to say separating Regina from the Evil Queen has caused one of them to become fertile again. 

Or to declare that infertility is no match for True Love.

[Shanna Marie]

I tried rewatching last night and had to turn it off because it was getting to be just too painful/annoying. I suspect next season I'll have to DVR rather than watch live so I'll have access to the FF button.

Some things I did notice from the parts I watched:
The timeline is kind of weird. It's dark when Hook shows up at the diner and then they rush off to the clock tower, where Henry overhears Emma being worried about Regina going all Evil Queen and Emma tells Henry to go back to her place. It's still dark when Henry apparently goes straight to Gold's shop instead and texts Violet to join him. But then it's daytime and everyone has changed clothes (including Hook going from his Dark One gear to his normal stuff -- which I still don't get. Did he get new Dark One jewelry or did it magically change when he was Dark, and then why didn't it automatically change back when he wasn't the Dark One?) when they learn that Henry has left town. Did Emma not go home that night to notice that Henry never went there?

The impact of Hook's return is seriously blunted by the fact that we never see anyone react to the fact that he's gone. Emma got a hug from her mother and had her scene at the grave in the previous episode, but otherwise, Hook's death isn't acknowledged. When Violet approaches Henry at Robin's wake, she's talking to him about her worries while he was in the Underworld, which implies that this is the first time she's spoken to him since his return, and yet she only offers condolences on Robin's death, which suggests that she hadn't already attended a similar wake for Hook. Unless there was a lot of Offscreenville stuff that was never alluded to between Robin and Henry, Hook was a lot closer to Henry. While they were in Camelot, Hook and Henry were house shopping together, and Henry brought Hook and Emma to the place where he met up with Violet, so you'd think Violet would have been more likely to know about Hook and his place in Henry's life than Robin. It ends up looking like the whole town, including Emma, who was also bereaved, gathered around Regina for a full funeral and wake while Hook got buried and then everyone forgot about him. This isn't really about poor, neglected, unloved Hook, but rather that it's hard to get the full impact of the fact that he miraculously came back from the dead if no one noticed he was dead in the first place. Why not at least have made it a joint wake, with pictures of both of them rather than just a shrine to Robin, and have Violet offer condolences on both of Henry's would-be stepdads?

Then there's the total lack of reaction to Hook's return, which boiled down to "what's he doing here?" All we got was that hug from David in the background, and I have to wonder, given the lack of reaction elsewhere, if that was scripted/directed or improvised by Josh and Colin. Since they were just in the background, their job would have been to exist in the scene in character, and that's the most natural reaction in the episode, which would make sense if it's two actors behaving in character rather than being forced to contort into a contrived script. Even Henry doesn't react at all to Hook's return. He looked devastated at Hook's death and again when he learned that Hook wouldn't be returning. He and Hook were planning a home together, and Hook is also one of his best links to his dad, but he doesn't seem to react to Hook's return or interact with him afterward. On the other hand, Hook barely reacts to seeing any of these people again, other than the hug with David in the background. I can kind of see him being wary, since they aren't exactly welcoming him back with open arms, but at least with Henry, you'd think he'd be happy to see him again. The whole thing plays out like every character already knew Hook would be coming back, so they didn't waste time missing him and weren't all that surprised that he returned. Why go so far as to kill a character and then pretend he's stuck in the Underworld for good if you downplay his death and return?

They may have missed a huge opportunity by not having Regina on board with Henry's Destroy All Magic plan. When you think about it, everything bad that's happened in her life has been because of magic, and we know how she likes to blame outside people and forces. Magic made Cora full-on evil, and it was magic that made Zelena forget her sister, which led to the revenge scheme using Marian and Robin. Magic killed Daniel, and it was magic that turned Regina into the Evil Queen. With no magic, there's no Evil Queen. Regina hasn't been shown to be addicted to power like Rumple. So it would have been an interesting dynamic if Regina had gone after Henry to protect him against Rumple and to help him, while Emma was less on board with destroying all magic as such a drastic step (especially if she was afraid that Hook could only stay alive with magic).

[Randomosity]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Since they were just in the background, their job would have been to exist in the scene in character, and that's the most natural reaction in the episode, which would make sense if it's two actors behaving in character rather than being forced to contort into a contrived script.

Maybe someone with more insider info has better insight than me, but I was an extra in one horribly low-budget movie, and even then we background extras (and main characters relegated to the background) were given very specific instructions on what to do, how to behave, what our individual 'motivation' was, exactly when to do what, etc. Based solely on that, I'd find it hard to believe that Hook and Charming, as main characters, even in the background, were not specifically directed on what to do. Again, I have that one single experience working on a set; others may be able to speak more knowledgeably.

[Curio]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The impact of Hook's return is seriously blunted by the fact that we never see anyone react to the fact that he's gone. Emma got a hug from her mother and had her scene at the grave in the previous episode, but otherwise, Hook's death isn't acknowledged. When Violet approaches Henry at Robin's wake, she's talking to him about her worries while he was in the Underworld, which implies that this is the first time she's spoken to him since his return, and yet she only offers condolences on Robin's death, which suggests that she hadn't already attended a similar wake for Hook.

I honestly think Hook's funeral occured before they all went to the Underworld. It's the only way most of 5B's scenes make sense. I think the biggest mistake was not having Emma change her clothes at the end of "Swan Song," so it appears like only a few hours had passed after Hook's death and when she confronted Gold about the dagger. But considering how everyone was only focused on Robin's death/wake, Killian's soul had already moved on and his body was rotting, and the fact that Hook's grave was already under ground while Robin's was still above ground suggests he got a proper burial before they left for the Underworld. We'll just say Emma was too emotionally distraught to change clothes for a day or two while everyone else was putting together a proper funeral for Hook. That way, it makes a lot more sense that no one was offering Emma condolences about Hook's death because they technically already did it once before a few weeks earlier.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Curio

[MostlyC]

Maybe someone with more insider info has better insight than me, but I was an extra in one horribly low-budget movie, and even then we background extras (and main characters relegated to the background) were given very specific instructions on what to do, how to behave, what our individual 'motivation' was, exactly when to do what, etc. Based solely on that, I'd find it hard to believe that Hook and Charming, as main characters, even in the background, were not specifically directed on what to do. Again, I have that one single experience working on a set; others may be able to speak more knowledgeably.

Accordingly to my industry friends, they straight up said that if it's a primetime tv show or movie with actual 6-7 figure budgets, background extras are told where to walk, sit, run etc. at specific times.  But never, not ever, have they been given individual motivation, unless it was something like,  "this is where the cgi monster will be; it freaks you out so you run the other way when we say action."

If Hook and Charming are deep in the background, they are probably making it up as they go along until they get their cue to saunter up to the foreground to say their lines and join in on the action.  Seldom do directors discuss motivation and character on set; that is handled at the table reads.

[ABitOFluff]

3 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

If Hook and Charming are deep in the background, they are probably making it up as they go along until they get their cue to saunter up to the foreground to say their lines and join in on the action.  Seldom do directors discuss motivation and character on set; that is handled at the table reads.

This is why I love this show. I can count on the cast adding that extra bit of meta to the scenes. Josh, Colin and Jmo are especially good about that.

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, MostlyC said:

If Hook and Charming are deep in the background, they are probably making it up as they go along until they get their cue to saunter up to the foreground to say their lines and join in on the action.  Seldom do directors discuss motivation and character on set; that is handled at the table reads.

I would imagine that regular main cast members are treated somewhat differently than background extras. They may have more leeway to improvise non-verbally, whether they're in the foreground or the background. We know that stuff like Hook kissing Emma's hand as the elevator went up was improvised, so there's a chance they'd be allowed to improvise the non-verbals in the background of a group scene. They shoot multiple takes, so if the director doesn't like what they're doing in the background, he can tell them to cut it out for later takes, or if he likes it he can tell them to do it again, or they may do something different in each take and the editor picks the one that works the best.

Even if there was a funeral for Hook before they headed to the Underworld, it still seems odd that no one is acting like there's been any loss upon their return. The entire point of going to the Underworld was to save Hook, and they failed. They came back without him, making his death final, as far as they knew. And there seemed to be no reaction to the idea that their mission failed.

[Rumsy4]

42 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would imagine that regular main cast members are treated somewhat differently than background extras. They may have more leeway to improvise non-verbally, whether they're in the foreground or the background. We know that stuff like Hook kissing Emma's hand as the elevator went up was improvised, so there's a chance they'd be allowed to improvise the non-verbals in the background of a group scene. They shoot multiple takes, so if the director doesn't like what they're doing in the background, he can tell them to cut it out for later takes, or if he likes it he can tell them to do it again, or they may do something different in each take and the editor picks the one that works the best.

Taking this to the writing thread. 

[Curio]

I apologize for the large quote I'm about to post, but I really need to dissect the verbose Emma/Regina conversation from Neal's apartment because this is the only place where I can analyze it with people who understand my frustrations. (And yes, I recognize the irony that this post is also verbose, but when there's so much to pick apart, it's kind of inevitable.)

Quote

Emma: Looks like Henry was here, but I don't think he was alone. This is, uh, Henry and Violet's song. 
Regina: They have a song? 
Emma: He really likes her. She's a nice girl. 
Regina: You're just saying that because you feel bad about ripping her heart out in Camelot. I'll like her a lot better when I know where she's taken my son. 
Emma: Well, I think I might be able to figure that out. Yes. He has definitely been here. He tried to wipe the search history clean. Luckily, I can get it back. 
Regina: I won't hold my breath. Maybe there's something else in here that can tell us where they've gone. 
Emma: Did you find something? 
Regina: One of Robin's books. He must have brought it with him from Storybrooke when he came here. I know because I gave it to him. It's a collection of this world's legends about Robin Hood. He used to laugh at everything they got wrong. 
Emma: What is it? Are you okay? 
Regina: It's a letter from Robin to me. 
Emma: He must have written it when he was trying to make things work with Marian. Or your sister. 
Regina: So what do I do? 
Emma: You have to read it. 
Regina: "My dear Regina, I know I shouldn't be writing this, but I had to let you know how proud I am of you. You opened your heart to love and let it change you. And no matter what separates us, I know you'll always be the heroine woman I fell in love with. Robin." 
Emma: Regina? You okay? What did it say? 
Regina: Please, Emma, if you're gonna try to make me feel better, don't. 
Emma: No, I know that I can't, and I won't. I'm sorry about earlier. I was so wrapped up worrying about how you'd react to Hook, I... I wasn't there for you about Robin. 
Regina: You want to know why I got so angry? Because you're right. The Evil Queen is inside me. Always trying to get out. I can't expect you to get it. 
Emma: Well, I fought the darkness. You know I do understand. 
Regina: All due respect, but you don't. You went up to the precipice, but you got pulled back before it consumed you. I was consumed. And I have to live with it every day. 
Emma: I can't imagine how that feels. 
Regina: It's exhausting. I'm constantly at war with my instincts. Like with Hook. My first impulse was to rip his throat out because it's not fair that he survives and Robin doesn't. But... I didn't. Because now I know that's wrong. Much as I want to give in to evil, I don't. So I do good. And hate every moment of it. 
Emma: You hate doing good? 
Regina: Yes. It's complicated. I know it's right, but it always leads to loss for me. Yet I keep doing it now, and I keep suffering. But I know the Evil Queen can't return, so... that's how it has to be. I'll never be at peace with myself. 
Emma: That's not true. You fell in love with Robin, and you were happy. 
Regina: Yeah, and look what happened. I am what I am. I did what I did. Many years ago, I had a choice. Snow White told a secret and I could have chosen to forgive her. Instead, I did terrible things. Unspeakable things. That will always hang over me. I've tried to be the hero. 
Emma: And you have been. 
Regina: What if it doesn't matter? There's no redemption for me. There's only suffering. Because now I have a curse—the curse of knowing the difference between good and evil. And I'm caught between them. If I revert, I lose everyone I love. Henry, my friends, everyone. And if I go forward trying to be good, I have to live with my past darkness and all its well-deserved consequences. 
Emma: I don't believe that. I believe in you. 
Regina: That's because you are good. But for me, it's a simple choice, really. I'd rather suffer than see that pain on the people I care about. This is my fate. I'm trapped.

First off, is this seriously an expert from this show? This show? The show where we can barely get two people to have a conversation that lasts longer than 30 seconds? Why is it that this is the one time where they break that rule by a landslide? Oh, right. The Regina Exception Clause.

What’s interesting (or depressing) about this exchange is that it seems to be a microcosm of Emma and Regina's "friendship." Regina dominates the conversation with about three-quarters of the dialogue (I did a word count) and when Emma is allowed to speak, she gets motivational gems such as, "Are you okay?" "You okay?" "I know that I can't." "I'm sorry about earlier." "I wasn't there for you." "I can't imagine how that feels." "I believe in you." As an Emma fan, it's disheartening to see just how much Emma has to roll over in these situations. She isn't even allowed to offer insightful examples from her own past, she just sits there like a robot and spews generic and boring lines to prop Regina up. If you ever needed one scene that explains the uneven dynamic in Regina and Emma's "friendship," this is it. Unlike when Emma was prickly with Hook and we were supposed to see the power imbalance there, the writers don't want us to see the imbalance between the two women.

Let's start breaking down some of the pieces of dialogue. They begin the conversation with Regina bringing up Emma's past as a Dark One where she ripped out a young teenaged-girl's heart. The writers probably intended for this to be one of Regina's "snarky" lines to bring levity to the scene; however, it backfires because this line directly contradicts what Regina says later on in the conversation. "All due respect, but you don't. You went up to the precipice, but you got pulled back before [the darkness] consumed you. I was consumed." How was Emma not consumed by the darkness when she ripped out Violet's heart? Why have Regina bring up Violet's heart to begin with if they were just going to ignore how serious that was for Emma's character? How was Emma not consumed by darkness when she forcibly turned Hook into a Dark One without his consent? How was Emma not consumed when she was willing to murder Zelena? How was Emma not consumed when she was consumed by darkness and it changed her appearance? The writers want us to believe Emma didn't have to work as hard as Regina to pull back from the darkness, but that ends up wrecking Emma's characterization and cheapening all of her hard work in 5A in favor of making Regina look better. It also makes Regina look unsympathetic towards Emma's own tragedies and it seems like she's playing a game of, "Oh, you think your life is bad? Mine is so much worse!"

Then, we have Regina's "I won't hold my breath" when Emma explains her plan to get Henry's Internet history restored. Friends don't belittle other friends' skills, sorry Lana. The only good thing to come out of that line reading was Emma's massive eye roll, but it's yet another example of Regina tearing Emma down while Emma just takes it and doesn't fight back. That isn't an interesting or equal friendship, it's one party taking advantage of the other party's patience.

"One of Robin's books. He must have brought it with him from Storybrooke when he came here. I know because I gave it to him." This line is just bad writing. There's absolutely no reason why Regina had to add in the last sentence announcing she gave Robin the book, the audience can piece it together on our own without the writers pointing it out with a flashing neon sign.

Now we get into the part where Emma is overly apologetic, even though she shouldn't feel guilty at all. Regina quips that she doesn't want Emma to make her feel better, but Emma apologizes anyways, "I'm sorry about earlier. I was so wrapped up worrying about how you'd react to Hook, I... I wasn't there for you about Robin." What?! Emma, by worrying about Regina's reaction to Hook, you were being conscientious about Robin's death! Emma and Hook were reunited only a few hours before she confronted Regina, so Emma literally couldn't be there for her about Robin. What the hell was Emma supposed to do, force Hook to live a few weeks by himself on his ship and keep his resurrection a secret until Regina recovered? And during those weeks where she and Hook would have had to lie to the entire town about his presence, was Emma supposed to go console Regina every day and have shots with her and talk about Robin? (I guess that explains Emma's 4x11 behavior...) The fact that Emma is even apologizing about not being a better friend to Regina is absolutely asinine. Emma has been a far better friend to Regina than Regina has been to Emma, and considering Season 5 began with the aftermath of Emma sacrificing herself so that Regina wouldn't become a Dark One/potentially die, maybe Regina should recognize that Emma has gone above and beyond what any "friend" should do. Oh, and where the hell was Regina when Emma needed a friend and was going to give up her magical powers? That's right, crypt sex.

"I can't imagine how that feels." Yes you do, Emma! This would have been the perfect opportunity for Emma to voice some of her own struggles she's dealt with in the past, but the writers didn't want to take away from Regina's Pity Party, so Emma had to remain neutral. I would love to discuss with Jen the way she delivered that line—it was almost as if Emma had to spit it out and was lying to make Regina feel better because her delivery was bordering on sarcastic.

And then we have the line about ripping Hook's throat out. Emma's reaction to the mental visual of her boyfriend dying a gruesome death again clearly sparked a pained reaction on Emma's face. So when Regina says, "I'd rather suffer than see that pain on the people I care about," again, it directly contradicts something she said in the exact same scene. Does Regina not realize she just caused Emma pain a few seconds before she said that? Is the only pain Regina recognizes the physical pain of someone dying? Because of her narcissism, she doesn't realize how her words can affect people emotionally. Regina tries to cover up her steps after she mentions killing Hook as only an initial reaction, but the damage is already done. (Apparently, you can say anything you want as long as you follow it up with "now I know that's bad.") Why would you tell your "best friend" that you want to kill their True Love, even if it was just a mental thought? And why wasn't Emma allowed to react to that? Regina admitting her thirst for murder also means that Emma was justified earlier in the episode when she was nervous about how Regina would react to the news about Hook. But of course Emma isn't allowed to tell Regina she isn't thinking straight and to sit something out, only Regina is allowed to say that hypocritically to Emma.

"[It's] not fair that he survives and Robin doesn't." You know what isn't fair, Regina? Emma having to be separated from her family for 28 years. It isn't fair that Snow and Charming had to give Emma up as a baby because they were afraid you would kill her. It isn't fair that Roland is now an orphan. It isn't fair that Marian had to die just so you and Robin could justify staying together. It isn't fair that Graham is dead. It isn't fair that Robin's rapist is alive and has sole custody of their child now. It isn't fair that Percival's village got slaughtered. But the show doesn't care about those people if it contradict's Regina's pain. 

Finally, we get to the epiphany that (gasp!) Regina might actually have to suffer some karma for her past murders. "There's no redemption for me. There's only suffering. Because now I have a curse—the curse of knowing the difference between good and evil." The curse of knowing the difference between good and evil? That isn't a curse, that's just called having a fucking conscience. If the show actually recognized Regina's mental illness, then this Pity Party wouldn't be so rage-inducing. But since they don't treat her character that way and have Emma condone everything, the morality becomes twisted. "And if I go forward trying to be good, I have to live with my past darkness and all its well-deserved consequences." "I don't believe that." Why does Emma say she doesn't believe that? What, Emma doesn't believe that Regina should suffer consequences for her actions? She doesn't believe that people have to live with the darker sides of their personalities? Emma is dating Captain Hook for crying out loud, so she should know very intimately that he has to live with his past darkness and how he fully accepts his well-deserved consequences. Every time Emma tries to cheerlead Regina's redemption, it's like she completely ignores Hook's own redemption. (I really wish Regina attempted to tell this Pity Party Monologue to Hook because she would have gotten a harsh dose of reality thrown back in her face.) 

Emma might believe redemption is possible for Regina, but I think it's about time she faces the reality that Regina has done far worse things in the past that she doesn't know about, and those consequences haven't been paid yet. Or why not have Emma point out that life is filled with good and bad moments, and that being with Robin was a good moment, but right now is a bad moment. Emma taking on the Dark One curse was a bad moment, killing Hook was a bad moment, but Hook being resurrected is a good moment. Life is a roller coaster, not smooth sailing. But this all circles back to Regina not just wanting happiness, she wants the best happiness. Regina is basically SNL's Penelope with magic where she has to one-up everyone around her, whether its her pain or her happiness.

Sorry, rant over.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Curio

[InsertWordHere]

31 minutes ago, Curio said:

I'll like her a lot better when I know where she's taken my son. 

I missed this gem in my viewing. Yeah, Violet was totally egging Henry on. Violet who has never been to NYC or anywhere in this world. Did anyone bother telling Sir Morgan Violet's whereabouts? 

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, Curio said:

"I can't imagine how that feels." Yes you do, Emma! This would have been the perfect opportunity for Emma to voice some of her own struggles she's dealt with in the past, but the writers didn't want to take away from Regina's Pity Party, so Emma had to remain neutral. I would love to discuss with Jen the way she delivered that line—it was almost as if Emma had to spit it out and was lying to make Regina feel better because her delivery was bordering on sarcastic.

Emma voicing that would have made more sense as to why she was even supporting this idea terrible idea of a split between Regina and the Evil Queen. The thing is, while the consequences of becoming the Dark One were directed directly at Emma for the most part (like seriously, no good deed goes unpunished), what Regina did as the Evil Queen, it's the others that suffered the consequences of those actions, and it's not like Emma gets to point that out.

In fact, there seems to be one person who constantly points out to Regina that she was the Evil Queen, and that she did some not so cool things, and that's the guy she really hasn't done anything to. (I know there was the whole let's push him over a cliff to distract Maleficent, and if he dies, so be it. But that was pretty mild compared to other things Regina has done).

I find that really weird in the writing tbh. 

Also way to deflect the blame for what your wayward son is doing onto the girl who isn't even from this realm, wouldn't know how to take the bus, and probably has no money. I'm assuming no one will be addressing how Henry is also a thief? Way to bookend the season. He tells Hook in 5x01 that he steals from his mother, and we actually see him stealing from his grandfather.

Edited May 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[RulerofallIsurvey]

First, thank you so much for your incredible analysis of the exchange between Regina and Emma.  (Or lack of exchange, as it were)

10 hours ago, Curio said:

Regina: You're just saying that because you feel bad about ripping her heart out in Camelot.

In addition to what you said, this completely ignores all the times Regina has ripped out hearts.  

10 hours ago, Curio said:

it was almost as if Emma had to spit it out and was lying to make Regina feel better because her delivery was bordering on sarcastic.

I thought it was sarcastic.  That's how I interpreted it when I first watched the ep, and I'm sticking by that.  

10 hours ago, Curio said:

Emma: You hate doing good? 
Regina: Yes. It's complicated. I know it's right, but it always leads to loss for me. Yet I keep doing it now, and I keep suffering.

Like it hasn't for other people?  Namely her victims?  I really wish Emma had been able to point out how doing good led to the loss of their daughter for 28 years for Snow White and Prince Charming.  Or how Emma pretty much 'lost' her family for a year as the Dark One (which she became by doing good).  There are too many examples to list from the past seasons.

After this speech, maybe once Regina has actually suffered the loss of her entire family for 28 years, and learned some humility, I'll feel a smidgen of pity for her.  

10 hours ago, Curio said:

The curse of knowing the difference between good and evil? That isn't a curse, that's just called having a fucking conscience.

^^This right here. Thank you.  I can't believe the writers don't get it.

[Randomosity]

I agree with so much of the above. It's like they decided that since the show is about magic, fairy tales, monsters, and whatnot, none of which are real, why bother having the characters be real humans?

[Mitch]

11 hours ago, Curio said:

I apologize for the large quote I'm about to post, but I really need to dissect the verbose Emma/Regina conversation from Neal's apartment because this is the only place where I can analyze it with people who understand my frustrations. (And yes, I recognize the irony that this post is also verbose, but when there's so much to pick apart, it's kind of inevitable.)

First off, is this seriously an expert from this show? This show? The show where we can barely get two people to have a conversation that lasts longer than 30 seconds? Why is it that this is the one time where they break that rule by a landslide? Oh, right. The Regina Exception Clause.

What’s interesting (or depressing) about this exchange is that it seems to be a microcosm of Emma and Regina's "friendship." Regina dominates the conversation with about three-quarters of the dialogue (I did a word count) and when Emma is allowed to speak, she gets motivational gems such as, "Are you okay?" "You okay?" "I know that I can't." "I'm sorry about earlier." "I wasn't there for you." "I can't imagine how that feels." "I believe in you." As an Emma fan, it's disheartening to see just how much Emma has to roll over in these situations. She isn't even allowed to offer insightful examples from her own past, she just sits there like a robot and spews generic and boring lines to prop Regina up. If you ever needed one scene that explains the uneven dynamic in Regina and Emma's "friendship," this is it. Unlike when Emma was prickly with Hook and we were supposed to see the power imbalance there, the writers don't want us to see the imbalance between the two women.

Let's start breaking down some of the pieces of dialogue. They begin the conversation with Regina bringing up Emma's past as a Dark One where she ripped out a young teenaged-girl's heart. The writers probably intended for this to be one of Regina's "snarky" lines to bring levity to the scene; however, it backfires because this line directly contradicts what Regina says later on in the conversation. "All due respect, but you don't. You went up to the precipice, but you got pulled back before [the darkness] consumed you. I was consumed." How was Emma not consumed by the darkness when she ripped out Violet's heart? Why have Regina bring up Violet's heart to begin with if they were just going to ignore how serious that was for Emma's character? How was Emma not consumed by darkness when she forcibly turned Hook into a Dark One without his consent? How was Emma not consumed when she was willing to murder Zelena? How was Emma not consumed when she was consumed by darkness and it changed her appearance? The writers want us to believe Emma didn't have to work as hard as Regina to pull back from the darkness, but that ends up wrecking Emma's characterization and cheapening all of her hard work in 5A in favor of making Regina look better. It also makes Regina look unsympathetic towards Emma's own tragedies and it seems like she's playing a game of, "Oh, you think your life is bad? Mine is so much worse!"

Then, we have Regina's "I won't hold my breath" when Emma explains her plan to get Henry's Internet history restored. Friends don't belittle other friends' skills, sorry Lana. The only good thing to come out of that line reading was Emma's massive eye roll, but it's yet another example of Regina tearing Emma down while Emma just takes it and doesn't fight back. That isn't an interesting or equal friendship, it's one party taking advantage of the other party's patience.

"One of Robin's books. He must have brought it with him from Storybrooke when he came here. I know because I gave it to him." This line is just bad writing. There's absolutely no reason why Regina had to add in the last sentence announcing she gave Robin the book, the audience can piece it together on our own without the writers pointing it out with a flashing neon sign.

Now we get into the part where Emma is overly apologetic, even though she shouldn't feel guilty at all. Regina quips that she doesn't want Emma to make her feel better, but Emma apologizes anyways, "I'm sorry about earlier. I was so wrapped up worrying about how you'd react to Hook, I... I wasn't there for you about Robin." What?! Emma, by worrying about Regina's reaction to Hook, you were being conscientious about Robin's death! Emma and Hook were reunited only a few hours before she confronted Regina, so Emma literally couldn't be there for her about Robin. What the hell was Emma supposed to do, force Hook to live a few weeks by himself on his ship and keep his resurrection a secret until Regina recovered? And during those weeks where she and Hook would have had to lie to the entire town about his presence, was Emma supposed to go console Regina every day and have shots with her and talk about Robin? (I guess that explains Emma's 4x11 behavior...) The fact that Emma is even apologizing about not being a better friend to Regina is absolutely asinine. Emma has been a far better friend to Regina than Regina has been to Emma, and considering Season 5 began with the aftermath of Emma sacrificing herself so that Regina wouldn't become a Dark One/potentially die, maybe Regina should recognize that Emma has gone above and beyond what any "friend" should do. Oh, and where the hell was Regina when Emma needed a friend and was going to give up her magical powers? That's right, crypt sex.

"I can't imagine how that feels." Yes you do, Emma! This would have been the perfect opportunity for Emma to voice some of her own struggles she's dealt with in the past, but the writers didn't want to take away from Regina's Pity Party, so Emma had to remain neutral. I would love to discuss with Jen the way she delivered that line—it was almost as if Emma had to spit it out and was lying to make Regina feel better because her delivery was bordering on sarcastic.

And then we have the line about ripping Hook's throat out. Emma's reaction to the mental visual of her boyfriend dying a gruesome death again clearly sparked a pained reaction on Emma's face. So when Regina says, "I'd rather suffer than see that pain on the people I care about," again, it directly contradicts something she said in the exact same scene. Does Regina not realize she just caused Emma pain a few seconds before she said that? Is the only pain Regina recognizes the physical pain of someone dying? Because of her narcissism, she doesn't realize how her words can affect people emotionally. Regina tries to cover up her steps after she mentions killing Hook as only an initial reaction, but the damage is already done. (Apparently, you can say anything you want as long as you follow it up with "now I know that's bad.") Why would you tell your "best friend" that you want to kill their True Love, even if it was just a mental thought? And why wasn't Emma allowed to react to that? Regina admitting her thirst for murder also means that Emma was justified earlier in the episode when she was nervous about how Regina would react to the news about Hook. But of course Emma isn't allowed to tell Regina she isn't thinking straight and to sit something out, only Regina is allowed to say that hypocritically to Emma.

"[It's] not fair that he survives and Robin doesn't." You know what isn't fair, Regina? Emma having to be separated from her family for 28 years. It isn't fair that Snow and Charming had to give Emma up as a baby because they were afraid you would kill her. It isn't fair that Roland is now an orphan. It isn't fair that Marian had to die just so you and Robin could justify staying together. It isn't fair that Graham is dead. It isn't fair that Robin's rapist is alive and has sole custody of their child now. It isn't fair that Percival's village got slaughtered. But the show doesn't care about those people if it contradict's Regina's pain. 

Finally, we get to the epiphany that (gasp!) Regina might actually have to suffer some karma for her past murders. "There's no redemption for me. There's only suffering. Because now I have a curse—the curse of knowing the difference between good and evil." The curse of knowing the difference between good and evil? That isn't a curse, that's just called having a fucking conscience. If the show actually recognized Regina's mental illness, then this Pity Party wouldn't be so rage-inducing. But since they don't treat her character that way and have Emma condone everything, the morality becomes twisted. "And if I go forward trying to be good, I have to live with my past darkness and all its well-deserved consequences." "I don't believe that." Why does Emma say she doesn't believe that? What, Emma doesn't believe that Regina should suffer consequences for her actions? She doesn't believe that people have to live with the darker sides of their personalities? Emma is dating Captain Hook for crying out loud, so she should know very intimately that he has to live with his past darkness and how he fully accepts his well-deserved consequences. Every time Emma tries to cheerlead Regina's redemption, it's like she completely ignores Hook's own redemption. (I really wish Regina attempted to tell this Pity Party Monologue to Hook because she would have gotten a harsh dose of reality thrown back in her face.) 

Emma might believe redemption is possible for Regina, but I think it's about time she faces the reality that Regina has done far worse things in the past that she doesn't know about, and those consequences haven't been paid yet. Or why not have Emma point out that life is filled with good and bad moments, and that being with Robin was a good moment, but right now is a bad moment. Emma taking on the Dark One curse was a bad moment, killing Hook was a bad moment, but Hook being resurrected is a good moment. Life is a roller coaster, not smooth sailing. But this all circles back to Regina not just wanting happiness, she wants the best happiness. Regina is basically SNL's Penelope with magic where she has to one-up everyone around her, whether its her pain or her happiness.

Sorry, rant over.

Yea I don't agree with that interpretation....I can see why people roll their eyes at it as it should have come much earlier...(would be nice if Regina didn't need someone to die to get self perception but as we say "This Show") and I have always been more for Emma being the voice of reason, the voice from "our world."  If she could have said..."Hey we all feel like that and we ALL have to deal with our past and we ALL have done bad things...granted, not as bad as the Evil Queen or Rumpel but bad things. We live with it and move on and good and bad things happen, its called life. In this world there are not heroes and villains and people assigned to those roles like the cartoons I watched as a kid. There are no Superfriends or Legion of Doom there are people who do good things sometimes, bad things other times. Good people learn and changing. You have moved on but you can never escape that past, you need to live with it"  I realize that then could not have had Emma at the splitting (which was stupid, I can see not very bright Snow being there and agreeing, but Emma? Or at least have her say its not a good idea, it wont work and roll her eyes at those two..."You people think magic is the answer to everything.")

But it also irks me that these goofy people who lived in our world (granted an altered version of it) would still mouth off heroes and villains and all that other junk. For 28 years they scrubbed toliets and watched Morton Downey Jr. and the Real Houswives and now they act so airy fairy like they just came from the EF. Or a mental institution.

However, over all, if you look at what Regina said outside of Emma's reaction, it was a good speech and don't we all feel like that some days. It was the most self perceptive Regina has really been since her Mayor Mills days (where they would throw in lines about "I have down terrible things." without a smirk..like she actually feels a bit of remorse.)

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking more about the funeral (or lack thereof), although Hook's funeral happening before the trip to the Underworld makes the lack of response to his death work, I don't think it really fits the timeline or works psychologically. Even if Emma just hasn't bothered to change clothes out of grief or has a wardrobe full of identical white sweaters, it looked like Belle didn't even make it out of town before she got the news and came back, and she was still asleep the next morning when Emma sensed the dagger and called Rumple. Then there's the psychological aspect -- if Emma had been to Hook's funeral, she'd have had some degree of closure and finality. Would she have gone into the Underworld? And in the Underworld, would she have been so surprised to find she couldn't bring him back because his body was too far gone if she already knew he'd been enbalmed and buried? The grave was covered, but it was still bare, and there were flowers on it, so it looked more recent than weeks ago, more like a day or two earlier.

Regardless, if they wanted us to believe that Emma failed Regina in not being there after Robin's death (in spite of Emma having lost Hook for what she believed to be for good on the same day), they needed to have shown us something different. What we got was some very vivid imagery, with the whole town, including the recently bereaved Emma, surrounding Regina at Robin's grave and going through the ritual of laying the flowered arrows on the coffin, and then the whole town at Granny's, surrounding a Regina who was apparently so tired of condolences that she was getting snarky about it, with a shrine to Robin nearby. And meanwhile, we see Emma utterly alone, sobbing at Hook's grave. She gets told she needs to grieve like anyone else would, but we don't see anyone doing the things people do for a grieving person. We don't get to see her surrounded by friends and family at a funeral service, we don't see her grief even really acknowledged, we don't see a wake where people are offering her condolences on Hook's death or supporting her to the point she wants them to just leave her alone. I can see Hook being less popular among the general population than Robin, since Robin was never a villain and didn't do any harm to anyone in the town, but they all do love Emma. Not to mention, the Charmings had a big "We'll find you!" mission that failed, and they're showing more grief about Robin than about having failed Emma.

I can see not devoting an hour to a full Catholic funeral mass and wake filled with eulogies and remembrances for a character the writers know will be coming back, but the characters didn't know he'd be coming back, and they'd put a lot of effort into trying to save him, so we should have seen at least a hint that there was some grief or at least sympathy for Emma's grief. If Emma was going to apologize for not being there for Regina, then maybe we should have seen Regina attending Hook's funeral, or maybe Emma could have missed Robin's funeral because Hook had returned while she was at Hook's grave. What we saw was Emma being there for Regina and no one being there for Emma.

[KingOfHearts]

Was it me, or did the "destroy magic" plot seem like an allegory for people blaming neutral things for their problems? "Magic doesn't kill people. Rumple does." Honestly if Henry was successful, 6A would be a lot more interesting. The Evil Queen and Rumple could conspire to bring magic back. I was actually expecting Regina to lose her magic after splitting herself, since her magic went hand-in-hand with becoming EQ. Those two elements together would make a good looming threat. You really wouldn't need magic to use most literary characters.

Edited May 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Henry destroying magic seemed so random because I don't think he thought through that he's been using magic this entire arc by writing with the magic pen. Was he basically saying that he wanted to quit his job as the magical author, too?

[Camera One]

Henry was using magic to get rid of magic without specifying whether he was also getting rid of his own magic.  This episode was a walking contradiction.

[KingOfHearts]

18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Henry was using magic to get rid of magic without specifying whether he was also getting rid of his own magic.  This episode was a walking contradiction.

"Oh you made magic from magic? Well I guess I don't have to tell you that all magic comes with a price." That just popped up in my head from S1.

What if Violet came down with a terminal illness that only magic could cure after Henry destroyed it? Would he just stand there and say, "Well, it's the cost of keeping my family from ripping hearts out"?

Edited May 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

One of the things the really got to me in the Regina/Emma scene was Emma's hunched and defensive posture. As others have said, this is not in any way representative of a real friendship. Seriously, with friends like this who needs enemas (or should that be emitics?). Nothing like having to walk around on Fabrege eggshells with your bestie, for fear she might snap at any moment.

Added to that, Regina is bitching about stuff everyone has to deal with to a greater or lesser extent. Everyone suffers, bad things happen to good people every damn day, we all have dark impulses/thoughts from time to time. Clearly she's just too special to have anything in common with the unwashed masses. F*cking cow! Have I mentioned lately how much I hate her?

[Camera One]

The silver slippers are still in Storybrooke, so all Blue or Granny or Grumpy or all of them together had to do was, put on the Silver Slippers, go to Oz, pick up Red, Dorothy and an army of Munchkins.  Then, do a tracking spell so the cyclone would bring them to the Land of Untold Stories, where they could immediately swarm the Hyde/Jekyll complex and rescue everyone.

[KAOS Agent]

Henry destroyed magic with this week's Magical Item of Stupidity, so the theory is that the silver slippers wouldn't have worked. At least not until Henry gave his cringeworthy I believe in fairies speech or whatever. This episode was just so terrible. I can't stand Henry, so an entire episode revolving around him throwing a tantrum, endangering everyone's lives, destroying and stealing from a public library (I'm never going to let this one go. So much hate for him about this) and yelling at all the adults in his life and never experiencing any kind of consequences was basically the worst thing they could have done for a finale episode.

[KingOfHearts]

Henry was much more tolerable in the S4 finale. Mostly because he was helping his family instead of whining. His focus was much more warranted there too, seeing as he was the only one who could save the day. Here in S5, his spotlight comes out of nowhere and doesn't contribute to the main plot (aside from the finale's own) at all. I don't mind Henry having an active role, but it needs be done right. 

[Shanna Marie]

I mentioned earlier that it made more sense for Regina to be the one to want to destroy magic, and the more I think about it, the more I think that would have improved the episode considerably. It wouldn't have made Henry repeat a plot point from season two, when he should already have learned that lesson. It also doesn't flow well for Henry to have gone through the things he's gone through, become the Author, spent that time in the Underworld helping people with his Author power, and then have Hook be magically returned from the dead, and then want to destroy magic because he saw Regina and Emma fighting. But I think it would be in character for Regina to blame magic for all her woes and to think that the only way to save everyone from the Evil Queen returning was to destroy magic. So then we could have had Regina on a quest to destroy magic and Henry (and maybe Violet) rushing off to stop her, and Emma then having to go after them when the other gang got sucked through a portal and she knows she'll lose them if magic is destroyed. I'm sure there could be some excuse for Regina to find out about the anti-Grail in New York, or else maybe they wouldn't have had to road trip at all. It would have meant no Emma and Regina road trip together, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, and we barely saw anything of their trip, anyway. We could still bait the SwanQueen crowd by having Emma join with Regina to fight together against Rumple.

This way, Regina's long "poor me" speech isn't a bizarre interruption in their supposedly urgent quest to find and stop Henry but rather might have been her "desperate person on a ledge" speech explaining her actions, which adds tension and conflict to that speech. Henry isn't doing an abrupt 180 when he gets everyone to make a wish to save magic. He's rushing in to save the day using his faith in magic after everything else has gone wrong. And then giving Regina the Jekyll juice becomes a consolation after they see how desperate she was and after they had to ruin her plan in order to save the others.

[CheshireCat]

After the whole mess with Castle (always my first love) I've finally watched the remaining Once episodes and, probably in the minority, but there were a lot of things I liked about the finale. I would have liked if they had done a bit more with the foursome trapped in the Land of Untold Stories. They didn't really have a story and I would have liked to see them having to work together to find a way out of there and also, that Zelena would have to really prove herself and that she's really becoming a team player. And this whole Jekyll/Hyde thing was a bit too mental for Once in my opinion. I fast-forwarded that separation scene; reminded me too much of Dr Frankenstein. Not exactly a fairy tale.

I did like the other story though: thought there were a lot of nice moments between Emma, Regina, and Henry, liked the scenes with Regina and Rumple, too. They still do have an intriguing dynamic at times. And they really highlighted that Rumple didn't get what it was that Belle wants. Instead of freeing her and then trying to change, he wants to wake her forcefully, even steals all the magic and threatens her father and attempts to kill Regina and Emma. Yeah, that would have gone down well with Belle... I really wonder where they're going with him.

All in all I think that the season finale showed that they have so many dynamics to explore between the characters and have a villain with Rumple that they don't really need any huge outside villains. They can include them to have a threat, but I think this finale proved that the villains just need to be villains and they don't really need any stories because they can explore the existing characters' stories/dynamics.

[KingOfHearts]

The Emma/Regina scene in the apartment really belonged in 4A or 4B, when Regina still depended on circumstances to be happy. She had lost Robin in both those arcs, so she was faced with the same dilemma. Back then I could believe that she hated doing good. (Also it would have been less inappropriate seeing as Hook didn't just come back from the dead.) It's after 4x20 and 5B that it starts to make little sense.

Edited May 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Regina's speech in this episode makes her look even worse retroactively in season 4 because now we know that apparently all that time when she was running around acting like the universe owed her a happy ending and looking for the author to demand that she got the happy ending she deserved because she wasn't a villain anymore, she was actually the Evil Queen deep down inside and hated having to do good.

Though I guess it might explain why she thought she'd need supernatural intervention to get her happy ending, but it makes everyone else look dumber for going along with her plan and it makes her big lesson in late season 4 about writing her own happy ending look like a moot point if she's still hating being good and feeling like she's cursed because she has to feel bad about having done evil things.

[KingOfHearts]

The Evil Queen was an actual character way back when. Despite being a psychopath, she had real emotions and human desires. There wasn't a difference between "Regina", "Mayor Mills" or "The Evil Queen". They were all spun from the same wool. That's why the split in this episode was so cheapening. The Evil Queen is no longer a full person - she's a sub-personality of Regina's. All she represents is a dark thread. The concept of the cliffhanger saps away Regina's dynamism and leaves her in a black or white state. As a fan of all her personas, I hate that. I've been invested in her as a whole, not in separate ways. Regina and the Evil Queen are boring without each other.

Edited May 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Arnella]

Quote

That's why the split in this episode was so cheapening. The Evil Queen is no longer a full person - she's a sub-personality of Regina's. All she represents is a dark thread.

 I just had a chill! I'm afraid they are going to do whole season ripping off the Star Trek:TOG episode, The Enemy Within.

There are some identity confusion as EQ pretends to be Regina and it causes mistrust and misunderstanding - Regina is now too weak willed to do anything about it - the Charmings slooooowly figure it out.- everyone apologizes to Regina (I throw up in my mouth a little) - they unite to defeat EQ - Regina/Good Kirk realizes she needs the Evil Queen/Evil Kirk side of her to be whole person - defeated EQ begs to live but Regina beatifically says that they will live on in balance together.  Cue Star Trek theme...

[Rumsy4]

Easter eggs from the episode. 

[KingOfHearts]

My biggest problem with this two-parter is the lack of substance. The scene with Emma and Regina at the apartment is the only good bit of characterization within the whole finale. Everything else was fluff, which contributes to the feeling of being cheated. It's all very random and does not organically lead from 5B. When the spoilers came out, we had no idea how this all was going to play out. We thought there was a major plot element missing that connected everything. While it can be argued that the Olympian Crystal is the catalyst, it's so generic that it might as well be the Hat, Gauntlet or the True Love Potion. At least in S3 and S4, the crisis was setup.

While Steampunk World is fun, the heroes are only stuck in there for like five minutes. There's really no rhyme or reason behind the selection of Hook, Zelena, Snow and Charming. (Which really makes me wish some of the secondary characters could have gotten a time to shine. It's so awkward to see Granny stand there unscathed while everyone else is sucked into the portal.) Unlike Hades, I believe Hyde will work better as a secondary antagonist or a dark gray character, rather than a Big Bad. (Not unlike Zelena.) He doesn't exactly bring anything new to the table and he's quite a few big steps below an immortal god.

Honestly, my biggest question for S6 is where Rumple is going. Fingers crossed it's Agrabah or somewhere famous we haven't seen yet. I have a feeling there hasn't been any tease about it because the writers haven't decided what it will be yet. I was disappointed that EQ was the final twist instead of seeing Rumple walk up to the Cave of Wonders or something. 

The show is just unhinged and ridiculous at this point. I don't mind silliness, but it tries so hard to be serious too. It grabs us with these characters and situations, only to let go and move on to something else with zero consequences. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts