Cheers - General Discussion

[Inquisitionist]

I can only fanwank that Sam told Diane he wanted her to have a ring, since she got none from either Sumner nor Frasier.

 

Fair enough, but Diane insisting on having the box, and Sam keeping it from her that he basically got the same ring at a wholesale price veered too close to Lucy-and-Ricky land for my taste.

 

If the show really had guts, the season would have ended with the Simon Finch-Royce episode and S&D sadly acknowledging that they had no business getting married.

[cpcathy]

Oh, that would have been sad! i thought I Do, Adieu was sad enough.

[VCRTracking]

Stumbling on this old New York Times article from around the series finale in 1993 and it carried this accurate observation from one of the co-creators:

 

"I think there's clearly a 'Cheers 1' and a 'Cheers 2,' " said Glen Charles. Part one was the Shelley Long era, when the romance between Sam and Diane Chambers became the hottest and funniest sexual relationship on television. During "Cheers 2" the show moved toward a more equitable mix involving all the characters, with Ms. Alley's Rebecca becoming Sam's friend rather than a target for his unquenchable lust.

"Maybe there was even a 'Cheers 2' and '3,' " said Les Charles. As he sees it, the last six years break down like this: three years of character comedy and three of "more screwball comedy." A recent episode about Woody's wedding, for example, had enough physical stunts to qualify as French bedroom farce.

 

 

[GreatKazu]

I am bringing my question here that I originally posted on the Norm topic.

 

I have been watching the reruns of Cheers. It's been a long while since I watched the show in syndication. Was there an episode where a guy walks into a bar and the crowd yells his name out to the man just like they did to Norm? I am thinking there was a scene where someone, either Sam or Woody, worked at another bar, possibly in Mexico or Tahiti, and this patron walks in and that is what happened. Am I dreaming or did such a scene happen? Did it happen on another show maybe and I am just confusing it with Cheers? I have scanned through the online episode guides, but they don't help me. I'd appreciate the help.

[Bort]

Pepe!

It was when Sam was transferred to the corporation's new bar in Cancun.

[GreatKazu]

Thank you!! :-)

[GreatKazu]

Can you help me with another episode?

 

There is an episode where Sam and Rebecca are about to have sex. Sam is trying to take off his pants, I believe. They are on a couch and I think Sam is going crazy trying to disrobe. Do you happen to know the title of that episode?

Edited October 5, 2015 by GreatKazu

[Bort]

It's the episode where Rebecca is having erotic dreams about Sam, "The Improbable Dream, Part 1." Season 8.

[GreatKazu]

Thanks again! I appreciate it.

[VCRTracking]

I like later when Sam was having dreams about Rebecca revealed she was wearing a mask and it was the old man with the hat who always sits at the back side of the bar, and Sam woke up screaming!

[VCRTracking]

‘Cheers’ Team Reflects on Series Finale on 25th Anniversary, Talks Revival Potential

[cpcathy]

Lovely article from The Hollywood Reporter:

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cheers-at-25-untold-stories-inside-writers-room-1113428

[aradia22]

RE: The Variety article

If the creatives still feel like Sam and Diane shouldn't be together then I don't need a reunion.

I watched a lot of the show in reruns on Nick at Nite or whatever the equivalent was when I watched it. I loved the Sam and Diane relationship. I'm finishing up 30 Rock and they mention something about how Sam and Diane ended up together which is not what I remembered so I looked it up (thanks, Netflix). God, it's still a disappointment to me. I loved that relationship so much and while I also enjoyed some of the Rebecca years, it was never as good to me. I'm not sure I want to go back and watch the whole thing from the beginning (the same way I don't want to sit down and watch all of all Law & Order but I'll totally get sucked into a TV marathon) but I might if there was a way I could end it feeling like they did end up together. Maybe just stop at the episode where she leaves and Sam imagines them together in their old age.

Or just pretend that maybe they still had doubts on that flight but after spending even more time apart, Diane came back to the bar and they finally got together for good. To me that ending says "we shouldn't get married now" but not that "we shouldn't ever be together in the future." I agree though that it felt like lingering bitterness towards Shelley Long since everything in the earlier episodes did feel like S&D had met their person. Not that "they were not the right person for one another."

[cpcathy]

It doesn't help that Frasier (the show) didn't do anything about the Sam and Diane canon during its run.  I always thought it would be nice fan service to have Frasier mention that Sam and Diane had gotten back together--even in passing. I guess the Charles brothers really did not want them together!

[readster]

On 8/12/2018 at 7:17 PM, cpcathy said:

It doesn't help that Frasier (the show) didn't do anything about the Sam and Diane canon during its run.  I always thought it would be nice fan service to have Frasier mention that Sam and Diane had gotten back together--even in passing. I guess the Charles brothers really did not want them together!

My wife and I have been binge watching the series. We just finished season 5 and you could just see how even though they knew Shelly Long was leaving. They were giving us every reason to be happy when Diane left the series. When Season 6 begins, you see almost a tonal shift from Carla to Fraiser, now granted we had Fraiser and Lilth getting married and later having Fred and then later divorcing. However, Carla just seems to be missing her "hate on" and while they try and move it towards Kristie Alley, it just doesn't work the same. I do feel you could split Cheers into two halves, the Diane Years and the Rebecca Years. During the Diane Years, everyone is set in their ways and little change. During the Rebecca Years, you see major changes from Norm basically taking Diane's advice and do something he has a love for. Carla realizing she needs to fix her own life and Sam realizing if he wouldn't have been so set in his ways for so long, his life would have been different. Cliff never changes, Fraiser goes through the most the next six years of the series along with Woody and Sam comes to finally realize that the bar has been his one love that has always been there. 

[cleo]

I've been rewatching this bc it's been airing on TV. I like both the Diane and Rebecca years, but season 5 - Diane's last season- really dragged. I was ready for it to be over about half way through. I also don't think Sam and Diane were a good match. It always seemed like their relationship was mainly physical, and I assumed the sex was better when they were angry or making up lol. 

The one ep in s.5 that is really good is when Sam and Diane go for dinner to Frasier and Lilith's, and Lilith finds out about Diane and Frasier's history. 

I've seen 6.1 and 6.2, and Rebecca is just a breath of fresh air at that point.

[Peace 47]

I’ve been rewatching the show, too.  Awhile ago, I had been watching just a selection of episodes from certain seasons, and this time, I have been watching whole seasons (on Netflix).  A few random thoughts:

Lilith is really an amazing character, and I realized in this rewatch that she is actually probably my favorite.  You wouldn’t think from her first appearance (when she has a short, disastrous date with Frasier that really wasn’t the thrust of the episode and wasn’t even really a showcase for Bebe Newirth) that she would become a such a scene-stealer or that they would even bother to have her back.  Her next episode (where she and Frasier do the TV show and Frasier is insanely attracted to her when Diane gives her a makeover) was a great launching pad for her character, though.   I didn’t really buy her affair, though.  I know that she stated her reasons, but I just saw it as an implausible way for her to be written off.  I did really enjoy Rebecca’s reaction to discovering the affair, though.  Kirstie Alley’s acting in that short scene was quite funny (including how confident Revecca was that she could not keep a secret).

Frasier is also an amazing character.  Usually being the third point of a love triangle is not a way to endear that character to the audience, but the studio audience reaction (applause) to a speech Frasier gave to Diane and Sam about how Diane and Sam are still in love with each other really shows how the writers and Kelsey Grammer developed Frasier into more than third wheel.

Sam has an interesting quality of being very congenial and sympathetic to “sad sacks.”  He gives Diane a job when she has nowhere else to go; he gives both Frasier and Nick (Carla’s ex) janitor jobs when they are at low points, and pretends to be depressed for Frasier’s benefit.  It’s kind of a non-judgmental, go-with-the-flow quality.

[cpcathy]

Sam is one of the most layered characters I've seen in a sitcom. He's not just ladies' man, he's insecure, especially when he's with Diane. He's savvy but not booksmart, he loves his friends, his bar and he apologizes very easily when he realizes he's wrong. Mike Schur of The Good Place said Sam is a great character because as the main character, he has to be likeable but not so likeable he's bland. Sam is super flawed, but not unlikeable at all.

Edited April 29, 2019 by cpcathy

[cleo]

@Peace 47 totally agree Lillith and Frasier are great. It's amazing how well the show transitioned to including them. Definitely two of my favourites. I missed the episode you mentioned in my rewatch, I'll have to see if it's online somewhere. I had a crush on Bebe Neuwirth for the longest time. 

2 hours ago, cpcathy said:

Sam is one of the most layered characters I've seen in a sitcom.

Totally agree. Sam is a great character. It's interesting watching him- with all the comeons to women, the pressure on Rebecca to sleep with him, the shallowness- I'm not sure as a character he would get the greenlight from a network today. But he's really not an asshole. Even with all the emphasis on casual sex, he seems to really care that a) the women enjoy it and b) they are willing. 

Like there was an ep where Rebecca lost a bet and was going to sleep with him, and she was so not into it, Sam was like forget it. Of course they played it like a joke that she acted not into it to get him to give up, but still remains he wasn't into it if she was acting forced/unhappy. 

As a kid watching I really shipped them, but as an adult I enjoy them as friends. 

Random questions: 

I'm on season 6. Was this the first time Carla's kids were introduced? 'Antony' and his wife? 

Also are there any good sources for behind the scenes info? I know there were some reunions/anniversaries the last few years I didn't pay much attn at the time.

[cpcathy]

We've seen "Antny" before season six, I believe. We also saw Ludlow and Seraphina.

[rubaco]

1 hour ago, cleo said:

Also are there any good sources for behind the scenes info? I know there were some reunions/anniversaries the last few years I didn't pay much attn at the time.

@cleo, you might want to check out Ken Levine's blog; he was one of the writers on the show. He does "Friday questions" every week, so you can read his archives, or (if you have a specific question) you can ask him and maybe he'll select it to answer.  

[cpcathy]

YouTube is also useful for behind the scenes stuff, The Emmy Archives has interviewed Glen and Les Charles, Ken Levine and James Burrows. The interviews are short snippets but are really interesting. The Charles brothers and Burrows were also interviewed by Bob Costas ahead of the finale back in 1993, they shared some good insight. 

[7-Zark-7]

Cheers is currently available on ITunes for $20. Not one season, the entire series. Couldn't believe it.

[Jynnan tonnix]

I just started a rewatch of Cheers from the very first episode after probably not having really seen more than a very occasional snippet in passing since it originally aired (and I'm pretty sure I missed the first couple of years when Rebecca was introduced when we were stationed in Scotland because my memory of that era of the show seems to have a big gap in it).

Anyway, watching the pilot brought me right back to the first time I ever saw the show (on a vacation to Maine with a friend, after a long day of hiking) and knew immediately that it was going to be something special from the first notes of the theme song. I just fell in love with that wistful voice, and the pictures through the credits (ending with the guy in the top hat, whom I always saw as the quintessential Bertie Wooster, but I digress), and remember how sweet, funny and intelligent the script was from the very first moment. 

I'm about three quarters through the first season about now, and just felt moved to see if there was a Cheers board here, interested in what others might have to say about it. 

It really has held up remarkably well, at least as far as I've gotten. 

[cpcathy]

Keep us updated on your progress.

[cleo]

I'm doing a rewatch too, but I'm on the Rebecca years. I like both equally I think.

[readster]

14 hours ago, cleo said:

I'm doing a rewatch too, but I'm on the Rebecca years. I like both equally I think.

It's funny how Diane was so sent on intelligence driven and Rebecca was on being a success. I do think things with Robin Concord went on too long and was glad he was gone by the middle of season 9. I think also the creators of the show around season 6 realized that Carly's family was nice in small doses. Whey they ever thought the Tortellis was going to be a good spin off, I have no idea. At least when Fraiser happened, everything made sense even when they rewrote his history that his dad was really alive and a police officer. With Nick and company, I'm sorry after season 2, I wish Nick and Bargetta along with Carla's oldest would have been hit by a truck and never seen again. 

[Bort]

I liked Nick and Loretta showing up once a season in their dysfunctionality but they only worked with Diane there, I don't think they were quite as effective with Rebecca (I actually can't remember if they showed up when Rebecca was there. If they did, it was unfunny and unmemorable).

I definitely didn't care about Antony or any of Carla's other kids. Too many episodes were done on them. The only one I thought was done well was the episode with Ludlow and him mixing it up with Frasier and Lilith.

[cleo]

1 hour ago, readster said:

I do think things with Robin Concord went on too long and was glad he was gone by the middle of season 9.

I'm in the middle of season 8 so he is there. He really seems like a jerk. Not so much to Rebecca but the guys in the bar. At least Evan Drake seemed courteous to everyone, in spite of being consistently baffled. 

1 hour ago, readster said:

I think also the creators of the show around season 6 realized that Carly's family was nice in small doses. Whey they ever thought the Tortellis was going to be a good spin off, I have no idea.

Yeah could not see that show being successful. I liked them in the early seasons, as @Kariyaki said. It was a little funny seeing Nick try to seduce Diane and her almost falling for it. 

[VCRTracking]

 I love the Norm episode where he pretends to be a fictional mean boss named "Kreitzer" so he can order around his lazy employees in his housepainting business.

Edited September 11, 2019 by VCRTracking

[readster]

On 9/11/2019 at 12:36 PM, VCRTracking said:

 I love the Norm episode where he pretends to be a fictional mean boss named "Kreitzer" so he can order around his lazy employees in his housepainting business.

Yes that was hilarious and even how everyone at the bar who told him it was a stupid idea to try and be someone else, paid him back at the end by calling him: "Antone!" when he walked into the bar. We are in the middle of the season 10 now and once again, Carla's kids are still just horrible to watch. I get even Rela Pearlsman said: "Carla is honest, not mean." However, by this point in the show. It seems that Carla had gone into: "Well, if I can push your buttons, I will." In current times, Carla would have been knocked out and arrested and her kids taken away. 

[cleo]

I do think Carla is mean. 

Another character that stayed too long was the French guy Kelly brings back from Europe. 

[cpcathy]

I think Rhea Perlman did a great job (but four Emmys, really?) but Carla is my least favorite character. I tend to skip Carla-centric episodes. Her sister Heidi wrote a lot of her episodes, and sometimes it feels like Rhea went to Heidi and said “write something where I play my own sister” or “I want Carla to kiss Sam.”  Any episode where she is supposed to be sympathetic annoys me.

[WendyCR72]

ABC is doing a "Cast from the Past" week-long event on its prime time shows. As such, Kirstie Alley, Rhea Perlman, George Wendt, and John Ratzenberger will be on an episode of The Goldbergs on October 9th.

Other cast reunions are as described in the link.

[VCRTracking]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:48 PM, cleo said:

I do think Carla is mean. 

Another character that stayed too long was the French guy Kelly brings back from Europe. 

Henri. "I'm going to steal your girlfriend!"

I did like the episode where he and Sam compete to who will get the most phone numbers from women in the bar.

[cleo]

I just watched the eps where Rebecca gets engaged to Robin and then dumps him. I love the entire scene when Sam goes to visit Rebecca and she's loaded. Kirstie Alley did a great job. 

Sam- are you drinking again?

Rebecca- No. I'm drinking still. Then she puts her glass down, pick it up, and says - Now I'm drinking again. 

I used to use that line all the time when I was younger. Then when she tries to seduce him and he's like- you're gross. 

I don't quite buy that she would forget the next day (or not be hung over), but suspension of disbelief. I also enjoyed Kelsey Grammar singing, and Bebe Neuwirth. Both of them have great voices. Lilith was such a great character, I loved Bebe Neuwirth for a long time after Cheers.  

[cpcathy]

I know Ted Danson and Shelley Long had the ultimate chemistry, but Ted and Kirstie were really great together in that scene.

[cleo]

The little toddler playing Freddie was cute as a button. 

I didn't really like the Sam/Rebecca baby storyline, but I feel sad for Sam, no kids no relationship.

[readster]

5 minutes ago, cleo said:

The little toddler playing Freddie was cute as a button. 

I didn't really like the Sam/Rebecca baby storyline, but I feel sad for Sam, no kids no relationship.

The story also got dropped due to Kirstie's miscarriage and own fertility problems. Something that I also felt out of place in the episode before the final episodes was when Same "finally" went to a sexaholic group. They felt it was more to wrap everything up and that Sam realized his greatest love was the bar. However, I think at some point everyone would be: "So Sam, didn't knock up one woman and didn't catch one STD in all this time?" "How is that even possible?" 

[cleo]

@readster I didn't realize that about Kirstie Alley. That's a shame.

I vaguely recall that sexaholic ep, haven't reached it yet in my rewatch.

[Bort]

12 minutes ago, readster said:

The story also got dropped due to Kirstie's miscarriage and own fertility problems.

No, that was during the Robin Colcord years. They were going to write in Kirstie’s pregnancy after she and Sam had first slept together but then she miscarried.

[readster]

9 hours ago, kariyaki said:

No, that was during the Robin Colcord years. They were going to write in Kirstie’s pregnancy after she and Sam had first slept together but then she miscarried.

Still makes sense, but I know the miscarriage was why the story line was dropped.

[DoctorAtomic]

I just found out this was on Netflix. I was a little too young when it first aired so these are all new to me. 

One thing I noticed is the actors genuinely laugh a lot at the jokes. Shelley Long looked like she was going to piss herself when the friend was reciting the awful Russian poem. There is a lot more physical comedy than I would have thought too. 

[cpcathy]

Wait til you get to the “Sinatra” episode.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know what that is but I will let you know when I do. 

 

[cleo]

I'm just watching the final eps, I have one to go. Doctor Atomic you may want to skip if you dont want spoilers.

 

I like the final season in general, I like that they didn't try too many drastic changes with people's lives. The thing with Don was super fast but he was a funny character. Rebecca played it almost too over the top in the penultimate episode but I liked when she started crying about marrying a plumber.

I would really have liked Lilith to make another appearance. 

Sam and Diane - meh. I wish they had done something different with this. I would have liked to have seen more scenes with Rebecca and Diane, after all I'm sure Rebecca would have heard stories about her. It would have been funny for Rebecca to have been like- so you're Diane? Meh. Or there are a lot of ways they could have played it. Add Lilith and it could have been really good.

I like Woody as a councilman and I buy it.

One more ep to go. I dont really remember it well. This was a great show and I'm so glad I started a rewatch.

[cpcathy]

I wish somehow they could have brought Diane back for the entire final season, she didn’t have to be in each episode, but just enough that they she and Sam could have a believable rekindling of their relationship. There would have been plenty of conflict for the writers to work with.

[DoctorAtomic]

I recall some episodes from the late 80s to early 90s but then I went to college. So nothing is really much a spoiler for me. I know Sam/Diane is coming up. And I think I remember her leaving. I remember Fraiser a lot. I know the actor playing Coach passes, and Sam relapses. I'm not looking forward to that. And I know the gag about Vera. 

Some of the jokes don't hold up - 'what's your son's name? Rick. What's his fiance's name? Ron.' I still laughed because I'm an asshole. 

Most of the jokes do hold up though. I'm laughing a lot. Some are dumb, but still funny. I think you can get away with that a bar though for the main setting. 

Shelley Long is a fantastic comic actress, whether she's the butt of the joke, or delivering the punch line. 

I just watched the one about the guy going into the monastery.

I think they aired S1 out of order because Sam orders Carla and Diane to talk it out and stop snipping at each other, but the next episode they were. 

I really liked the one with Coach's daughter (Miss DiPesto!). They both sold the 'I'm not beautiful' scene. 

The gags are all just good comedy, and they write such great supporting characters, even the one-offs.

 

[cpcathy]

Just a heads up, everyone, Cheers s leaving Netflix at the end of June. 

[blondiec0332]

13 hours ago, cleo said:

I like Woody as a councilman and I buy it.

He would  probably be president by now.