S32.E10: I'm Not Here To Make Good Friends

[Nashville]

Depends upon one's definition of "playing" an Idol.

My understanding is that "play" has historically included the option for transfer as well as presentation for use.

Using the latest TC as an example: I could easily see it as being within the rules for Tai to stand up post-vote and say, "Wait a minute, Jeff - I have a Super Idol, and I'd like to give it to Scot" - who would then present the SI to Jeff.

The caveat to such a play, though - and this is where I think our merry little band of douchebag rocket scientists may have fell down on the job a little - is that the two regular HIIs would already have to be combined to create a SI to have this power. An alliance would have to (a) assemble both HIIs into a SI and (b) give the SI to a single player pre-TC, to employ it in this fashion.

Uncombined, they're just regular idols - which can only be "played" before the vote.

[fishcakes]

our merry little band of douchebag rocket scientists

 

This makes me so happy.

[Eggman]

Notably, in his EW Q&A, Jeff discussed the fact that if Tai had handed over his HII (given the vote tally) Tai would've most likely gone home on the re-vote. If it would've been against the Rules for Tai to have done so at that point, I don't see why Jeff wouldn't have simply said that in the Q&A.

Point taken, you are probably right there, which leads me to this...

this is the first time we've seen this particular version of the idol, but if the superidol can be created/transferred after the votes are read, then it's way too powerful.

to which I agree. They are just reaching for two-idol play drama, ala Parvati's great gambit. It's just another case of "this isn't a game, it's a show," which, whatever.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Joining the pro-Aubry faction.  I went from really disliking this person (whenever it was Aubry & Joe versus Peter) to really, really liking this person.  That's the editors painting a really nice story and maybe Aubry finding her balls a bit, I don't know.  It's been a very interesting arc.  I also don't dislike Joe which is huge; I think it's just his affiliation with Aubry and him being so inoffensive compared to others (Jason).  I just want to feel something for Michelle now; I'm ready Editors!  Paint me your next picture.

[candall]

I agree that the Superidol is interesting, in theory.  You not only have to trust someone else enough to risk giving up your advantage of certain immunity, but also have full confidence that the other person will sacrifice his own advantage of immunity (later) to save you (tonight.) 

 

Now in a game of outwit, outlast, outplay for a million dollars--where backstabbing is the shortest route between two points--what are the chances??

 

The producers were lucky to have scored so much drama out of that construct--lucky there were two world-class egos involved.  I see many future seasons of fizzled Superidol promotion.

[azshadowwalker]

I've never been crazy about the idols. They do add some intrigue but when they give an unearned advantage to someone I don't like I hate them. This season when I thought the super idol was going to allow Scot and Jason to pick off all the women I was ready to quit the show altogether. Really I hope we never see the super idol again -- just too much power.

On the other hand I think the individual immunity challenges have been slanted too much in the women's favor the last few years. It seems like they used to alternate balancing and strength/speed challenges but now it's balance after balance and that's very hard for some men, particularly older ones (looking at you Joe.) Remember Rupert's first season? There was a strength challenge where everyone kept having weight added to their backs. Some young blonde -- the one who gave half her flowered skirt to Rupert -- almost beat him. She was awesome. I want to see something where Cydney's strength comes into play before she wastes away.

I hate the idols,regardless of who has them. They are a way of avoiding playing the game. There's a reason my favorite seasons were the early ones. People had to work to stay in. They couldn't just find an easy out that allowed them to get by the fact that they couldn't form strong alliances or win challenges or flip someone.

I did love Christa fighting in the Pearl Island challenge. Truth is that they were all putting the weight on Rupert, though, and it started very early in the challenge so he had to deal with for a long time. She kicked ass, but it was very relative. I am not sure you could devise something similar that gave the average woman any chance. You'd have to just repeat the challenge.

[henripootel]

An alliance would have to (a) assemble both HIIs into a SI and (b) give the SI to a single player pre-TC, to employ it in this fashion.

Uncombined, they're just regular idols - which can only be "played" before the vote.

I agree, and this is consistent with what we saw the last time they went to TC - they 'formally' handed over the HII, and formally handed it back afterwards.  I assume they're directed to do so by production, and it makes sense - possession of the HII is a big deal and you don't want any misunderstandings, like 'I was handing you the idol to look at, I wasn't giving it to you'.  Bit of formal wording clears that right up. 

 

But if you're right, then editing was jerking us around.  There is some precedence - a few seasons back, Brenda was facing elimination and was edited to look like she was silently asking Sash to save her by giving her an HII.  Apparently no such thing occurred - Brenda knew she was toast and they edited in an 'asking glance' out of sequence. 

 

The obvious dynamic was that Scot expected Tai to hand over his HII after the vote.  I'm not sure they could have edited this to only appear like it happened after the vote, but actually happened before.  It's also possible that Tai wouldn't have been allowed to hand over his HII at all, but they didn't clarify this because Tai refused anyway.  I'll be pretty disappointed if they go this route because it raises other questions, like 'if Tai and the Idiot Bros were hazy on what would and wouldn't be allowed, why didn't they just quietly ask a PA?' Supposedly, they can do this if they need clarification.  If they did ask and weren't told they couldn't do this, why withhold that information?  They have the HIIs to form the Super HII, even if the exact nature of the Super HII is withheld from general knowledge (as Tony's Super HII was), these guys need to know.  

 

So either the rules about exchanging HIIs after the vote has been changed, or somebody's getting jerked around here, most likely us. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by henripootel

[simplyme]

It's true that not being able to hand it over after the vote would mean that they can't make their entire alliance safe, but I don't think that was ever the intention of the superidol (and if it was, then it's a crap twist, on a par with that fucking Medallion of Power, in terms of dumb ideas).  Requiring that the hand-off come before the vote still makes it better than a regular idol because although you do have to guess correctly as to who's going to be the target, the idol wouldn't be played if the guess was wrong, so you lose the actual target of the vote, but keep the idol. With the regular idol, if you guess wrong, you'd lose both player and idol.

I fully expect it is the "crap twist," although I wouldn't be surprised if one of the rules for HII passing to create the Stuper Idol is that the recipient must already be in possession of an HII.

If you have to waste two idols AND guess correctly who needs to be holding both idols before the vote (or TC or whenever, but primarily pre-vote), then most of the time you will be able to dodge more with the two individual HIIs. Most of the time it would be stupid to trade two shots at immunity for one. If it requires someone to give up their HII to keep someone else in the game... well, historically relying on someone to do that for you gets you sent home. So IMO while there may be certain limited situations where the SI would be more useful, most of the time using the HIIs singularly probably ends up being more powerful.

I guess how you view the power of the SI is subjective. My gut reaction the first time I heard about it was, "Like hell would I give up my immunity to someone else or waste two possible immunities to get one." But for fishcakes and others, the foreknowledge and not losing the HIIs on a guess make it much more powerful. TPTB are probably hoping for players somewhere in the middle. :)

[Guest]

I agree, and this is consistent with what we saw the last time they went to TC - they 'formally' handed over the HII, and formally handed it back afterwards.  I assume they're directed to do so by production,...

I'm assuming that was pure kabuki theater and smug assholery.  "See my idol?  See me hand it trustingly to Tai?  We're acting out how our alliance and idols work because you are morons and we are in power, so we can."  Which is consistent with their other behavior in the last two tribals, and at camp.

[fishcakes]

I guess how you view the power of the SI is subjective. My gut reaction the first time I heard about it was, "Like hell would I give up my immunity to someone else or waste two possible immunities to get one." But for fishcakes and others, the foreknowledge and not losing the HIIs on a guess make it much more powerful. TPTB are probably hoping for players somewhere in the middle. :)

 

Oh, I wouldn't give up a regular HII to form a superidol for someone else either. (I'd accept one, though.) Not that I would ever play Survivor anyway, not being a fan of infections.

[Alapaki]

I agree, and this is consistent with what we saw the last time they went to TC - they 'formally' handed over the HII, and formally handed it back afterwards.  I assume they're directed to do so by production,...

 

I'm assuming that was pure kabuki theater and smug assholery.  "See my idol?  See me hand it trustingly to Tai?  We're acting out how our alliance and idols work because you are morons and we are in power, so we can."  Which is consistent with their other behavior in the last two tribals, and at camp.

 

 

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusively.  I think they were definitely rubbing it in everyone's faces at the prior TC, but they used similar explicit language when Tai returned the HII to Jason, and that was at a point where those three were alone so they weren't showing off for anyone's benefit.

 

I'm thinking that the Rules require some overt declaration of intent by the person handing over the HII (and possibly from the person taking it, although that wouldn't seem necessary) so that there are no misunderstandings.  I think Jason just carrying out the letter of the Rule in the spirit of a dickhead.

[Guest]

You're probably right. Given it's super-ness, they could have issues with people stealing idols out of others' bags, which has always been a no-no.  Probably better to make them declare changes of ownership on tape.  

 

Did they show Tai giving it back to Kyle in a bonus clip?  

[Alapaki]

Did they show Tai giving it back to Kyle in a bonus clip?

It was part of the episode. They didn't show the 3 telling anyone else. But I assume Tai would have.

[candall]

I think there's zero chance Jeff would shut down a Superidol play on a technicality:  "Oops, not so fast there--the idols can work after the vote but only if they're combined before the vote."

 

The producers are DYING to make superidol fetch happen.

[AliShibaz]

Oh, I wouldn't give up a regular HII to form a superidol for someone else either. (I'd accept one, though.) Not that I would ever play Survivor anyway, not being a fan of infections.

 

Or parasites. Parasites are my biggest fear.

[phlebas]

Or parasites. Parasites are my biggest fear.

 

If you guys just go out there with Debbie, she can warn you away from evil microbes and the like.