S02.E19: Back to Normal

[phoenics]

38 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

@phoenics, I know that chemicals and lightening were used in Flashpoint, and maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't recall Barry being in a tube like thingy the first time, when the particle accelerator went kablooey. And like I posted upthread, from the previews, Barry is contained. Plus, it was Harry's idea to do this to get Barry's powers back. Even though Barry was a dumb shit for giving it away. 

I, too, want my adorkable Barry from Season One back!

Sorry - I really didn't explain my disagreement with Barry enough - it's more that here, I'm not yet convinced that this will only impact Barry.  It seems like it could still impact other people.  In Flashpoint, the only person to be harmed would be Barry.  I see why Barry needs his powers back, but it feels selfish... and the writing seems more concerned with Barry possibly dying than this harming other people.  After seeing what the Particle Accelerator Explosion did to Gray, it feels way harsh to do this.

The writers keep putting Barry in these situations that make it seem like he doesn't learn from them.

9 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I don't care for grown up Barry. I loved the dorky, sweet one. That was the reason he was so adorable. You wanted the dorky, sweet Barry to have what he wanted. "Grown Up Barry" is too dour and miserable, and not as easy to root for.

I'd even take the guy who was on Supergirl, because that wasn't Barry from this season either.

If Barry and Iris get together and he's the same Barry we've seen all season, then he'll just be halfheartedly into it, and I don't even know if I'll care as much. The Barry from last year I really wanted to see be with Iris, because you could see and feel how much he adored her and was excited to be with her. This one is just meh about everything. He's probably not even going to be that happy when she confesses. How am I supposed to root for that?

This Barry does look like he couldn't get excited about much, lol.  Although he did look positively happy on E2 - that's why he got so sucked in there.  So we will see how this turns out.

[ruby24]

Yeah, I just want him to be excited about being with Iris, like he was in the first season.

If he shows the same amount of interest in her when they get together as he did with Patty (half-hearted at best, reluctant at worst, totally unenthusiastic about any of it), it's going to be very anticlimactic.

He ought to be giddy about this. But I don't think it's going to happen. It should be an exciting moment, but I think it's going to feel deflated, because they've dragged it out too damn long. And they haven't even told or shown us what he thinks about Iris lately.

Edited April 29, 2016 by ruby24

[Whodunnit]

This is how it should have gone. Scene 1:

Jesse: Promise you will stop killing people!

E2 Wells: Very well, I promise you will stop killing people! 

Barry at the door: Hey, Harry you said...

E2 Wells: (aside) Cool it...

--Misquoted from Robin Hood; Men in Tights

or Scene 2:

Jesse: Promise you will stop killing people for me!

E2 Wells: Fine, (mutters) Cisco is a better shot anyway...

Jesse: What was that?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Whodunnit

[twoods]

I thought by showing previous scenes with Iris talking about Barry being her destiny that there would be plot movement. Their scene was nice, especially with Barry telling Iris that he felt like they were the only two people in the world, then she had that look...and then nothing. No arm touching, no hug- nothing! I don't want to keep investing in them if there is no payback from the writers.

I'm sure the particle accelerator will be on a smaller scale and only affect Barry, but it would further the plot by making other speedsters that can help Barry beat Zoom.

I was waiting for Jessie and Wally scenes- I liked their vibe at the club so hope to see more of them.

[pookat]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'm beginning to wonder if TMITM is actually E1 Future Barry - the one who disappeared.  Clearly that Barry was super fast and probably powered by Tachyons or something even better, so he could presumably jump between worlds... so maybe it's him.  That "you wouldn't believe me if I told you line" reminds me of Fake!Mad Eye Moody in HP The GoF.  He said that when someone heard the real MEM screaming from within that chest.  When Harry asked what that was, Fake!MEM said, "You wouldn't believe me if I told you..." so I wonder if it's future E1 Barry?

Maybe that's lame.  My other theory would be Ronnie or Eddie.  But it's probably the "real Jay" which wouldn't be mind-blowing at all.

Teddy Sears is smoking hot as Zoom.  I mean - just HAWT.  I kept thinking that I wished Caitlin would become KF and have an arc where she goes to the dark side and eventually just embraces it and has a hot love affair with Zoom.  Minus the slow speaking.  I hate that.

Jesse and her five degrees, lol... and Iris' "Girl no, that's not common anywhere!" was HILARIOUS.  More of that spunky Iris please!

Ooh! I like your theory about future Barry! My MITIM theory is kind of similar. I think he could be Eobard Thawne. Otherwise why introduce his character again this season with that stupid and confusing time remnant explanation? Other theories: I think "real" Jay Garrick from another earth and Eddie seem like very solid theories or even HZ's dad as someone mentioned earlier, but only because he was in a war where he probably learned that POW code with the knocks.

I cannot believe how mousy, vanilla "Jay" turned into hot, crazy Zoom. Pretty remarkable what Teddy Sears had to suppress to make that believable. I seriously thought he was such a bad, bland actor who couldn't hit his marks, but kudos to Teddy for pulling that off. I don't read the comics, so the HZ/Zoom reveal was a true surprise to me (though I figured it out when MITIM tapped out Jay and was frustrated that Barry and Jessie didn't make the connection).

 

Loved Iris in this episode and the last. She is bringing the talent with her eyes and nonverbals even when she isn't given much to work with. I really like the warmth, strength and genuineness that Candice brings to Iris. The spunky side she showed tonight was a great treat as well and the scene with Barry (Iris was his first save!) made my WestAllen shipper heart swell.

 

On April 27, 2016 at 11:23 AM, CletusMusashi said:

I don't know how often he feeds the prisoners, but Killer Frost was certainly not running low on cosmetics.

Ha! My guess is that KF and Caitlin got special treatment because Zoom was enamored of them, one by proxy. I distinctly remember Jessie having smudge marks on her face and MITIM having dusty knuckles, so I suspect they both got the more standard prisoner of Zoom treatment.

 

5 hours ago, bettername2come said:

FORUMS! SWEET MERCIFUL FORUMS!

Teddy Sears makes a disturbingly attractive villain (he was not this attractive in the movie where he torments Julianne Hough). I really feel the urge to rewatch the Jay scenes and embrace the hindsight creepiness of it all.

Yes to both! I have admitted before how embarrassed I am that I find the worst villains (S1 Wells/Thawne and now HZ) so attractive. Stop it, show. You're giving me a complex!

I know it's all kinds of wrong with further reflection (especially disturbing if you read more deeply into him going through her body! Nope!) but when Zoom phased through Caitlyn to save her from KF, all I initially registered was whooooooaaaaa, that was smoking. I'll show myself out now.

[zannej]

I agree with the people who mentioned that it doesn't make sense how Gray knew where to find Harry. For that matter, why is he driving around in a very conspicuous STAR Labs van? Why not get one of the vans painted to be more generic looking? A guy who looks like the supposedly dead Harrison Wells driving around in a STAR Labs van would raise suspicions. It makes me wonder if there have been Harry sightings around town.

Speaking of his trips to look for Jesse, the whole cellular dead zones thing really struck my BS meter. First of all, how exactly does one track dead zones? Furthermore, how does one track dead zones when one can actually cause them himself? Or since he knows other denizens of E2 were there, how did he know which ones led to Jesse rather than someone else-- including Zoom?

Oh yeah, and how come this is the very first time they mentioned this phenomenon and why would the E2 people having different vibration levels cause dead zones in the first place? It just didn't make sense. It's like the writers weren't sure how to do it and just pulled it out of their asses.

By their logic with the dead zones, there would be signs of E2 people all over where I live. Granted, I live in a rural area and they are in a city though. It still seems dumb though. Especially since we've never seen a hint of them having problems with dropped calls around Harry before.

I couldn't bring myself to be interested in any of the Caitlin/Hunter/Zoom/Killer Frost stuff. I admit the one thing I found interesting about it was that E2 Caitlin had a brother. I wonder if it means E1 Caitlin will learn she had a brother who died and she never knew about it.

So, we finally found out that Jesse's mother is dead. I wonder who she was and how she died. It sounds like it might have been a violent death given Harry's mentioning of not being able to protect her. I'm guessing she died a long time ago.

I felt sorry for Harry not being able to explain to Griffin that he wasn't the Harrison Wells of that earth, but I'm pretty sure Griffin wouldn't believe him. I did wonder how Griffin planned to kill him. I'm guessing it involved pummeling him to death. Not sure if he had completely planned it out because I think he really wanted a cure. I noticed that Harry said "Stop talking" instead of "shut up". I wonder if that was a trait of Harrison's rather than Eobard's then or if it's just a coincidence.

I had to agree with Harry when he said it was all Barry's fault. The breaches were closed. E1 was safe. Zoom was dying. They just had to wait it out. But nooooo. I get that the longer Zoom lived the more desperate he would become and the more chaotic he could get, but, as harsh as it sounds, it was bad enough to have one doomed earth. Now both could be doomed. I still can't get over that Barry actually handed over his powers to a freaking serial killer-- especially one who was going to just die and no longer be a threat if they had the patience. I'm also disappointed that Harry actually went along with it.

When the other people were telling Barry it wasn't his fault, my first response was "Bullshit." Barry's impatience, brashness, and stupidity led to that situation.

Poor Jesse might have been safer staying in Opal City. And her poor roommate has to find someone else to help pay rent-- although, I wonder how Jesse got the $ in the first place.

The planning from Barry and co (without Harry around to naysay) continues to be asinine. Rather than go in and tell Griffin that using his powers is making him age and that they could take him to STAR Labs to at least try to figure out a way to help him, they just had Barry rush in and start punching him. Way to go. I know they didn't intend for him to die, but the plan was just dumb and tragic for poor Griffin.

Getting back to the bit about Harry driving around in a conspicuous van, I had a thought that came from a fanfic-- what if General Eiling found out there were sightings of Harrison? He would think that Harry was a speedster. If he still has any sort of power, he might go after him.

I'd love to see Singh's face when people explain the whole Earth 2 concept and then explain that E1 Wells wasn't even really Wells and real Wells was murdered years earlier and replaced by a body snatcher. He does know there are people who can make themselves look like other people.

As for the creating the particle accelerator explosion again, my thought was that they want to do it on a very small scale in a controlled environment. I think the only reason Eobard had it so far-reaching was because he couldn't necessarily come up with a good enough excuse to have Barry in STAR Labs in a more encapsulated environment without it seeming too suspicious. It makes me wonder how much havoc Eobard caused in the future when he recreated the accident to give himself powers.

And speaking of the accelerator explosion, Harry objected to the idea that he had caused the suffering because it was Eobard who made things blow up on E1, but he was still responsible for things blowing up on E2 even if it was genuinely an accident. So, he still was responsible for metas and a whole lot of death on his own world.

[CabotCove]

The Flash was sort of back to normal in his episode. 

After the crapfest that was last week this was watchable

I did enjoy the back and forth between Killer Frost & Caitln. And  of course they continue their streak of #Earth2Soulsdontmatter

Its sad and cruel what happened to cruel, this plot reminded a bit of Smallville

Wally is cute and he is also the new Roy Harper. 

Nice of Felicity to pass around Ray's tech, whats next building evil machines?

Of course Jesse is a super-genius, she is her father's daughter

Creating a new particle accelerator, you are just full of greeeeat ideas, aint you Harry

Edited April 29, 2016 by WildcardC

[KirkB]

The idea of the dead zone thing (while BS to be sure) I think, is that Harry was saying things in the world all vibrate at the same frequency. So everything from Earth 1 vibrates at one frequency while stuff from Earth vibrates at a different frequency. He is, somehow, able to observe these vibrations and calibrates the computer so anything not vibrating at the right frequency shows up as dead space. I can accept all of this as comic book science, but as has been pointed out the flaw in his reasoning was pretty vast. He found one and assumed it was Jesse, when it could have just as easily been Dr. Light (who is still running around Earth 1 as far as we know), King Shark (who could conceivably have escaped again and would not be pleased to meet the guy who shot him in the back) or any of the other breachers Zoom may have sent over who never bothered to attack the Flash.

I hadn't thought about it, but how DID Gray know where to find Wells? I mean, as far as Earth 1 knows Harrison Wells is dead. So while seeing him run around would probably attract attention who would this kid know how to find him? Though having typed that, if he was trying to figure out a way to cure himself and started hearing rumors of Wells being alive he could have just staked out Star Labs and followed him. Given previous episodes though, it's a bit surprising he didn't just wander in and grab him there.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I don't know how often he feeds the prisoners, but Killer Frost was certainly not running low on cosmetics.

Hahahah

Quote

Where does Zoom go all the time? It seems like he only has his "lair" in order to grab people and lock them up, and then show up at dramatically appropriate times to prevent them escaping or taunt them.

LOL

The writers also should have figured out what Caitlin would be wearing the previous episode when Zoom kidnapped because her outfit doesn't really cover that much for Frost to say that line.

Oh this show is the best comedy ever

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Poor Barry. I hope he gets his tall back soon.

It's probably closer to weight than height.  Could you steal some of my weight and add it to yourself?  Actually, yes, you could.  Through liposuction and plastic surgery you could do that.  Speed force energy appears to be a storable, stealable thing.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Flash Becomes Normal Again

Unfortunately, metahumans keep metahumaning.

[CletusMusashi]

I never even wondered about Harry driving around in a conspicuous van. Mostly I was curious why nobody seemed worried about the conspicuous BFG he was carrying! Does he also have a cloak of invisibility?

[zannej]

I think they sort of explained the reaction to the BFG with Jesse's roommate assuming it was for lasertag. It looks like a toy rather than a real weapon. I read somewhere that there is no cocking mechanism for the weapon but Tom Cavanagh insisted on doing a motion where he was pretending to cock the BFG so I think they had to add a sound effect to it.

I wonder if Iris still has her blog or if she discontinued it after Eddie died. It would be nice if it turned out she still has it though. Maybe someday she'll be searching the internet and discover that there are a ton of sightings of Harrison Wells. People saw the "burning man" and chattered about it. The police might not take it seriously if they hear people think Wells is alive.

I'll have to go with what KirkB said and assume that Griffin just heard rumors about Harrison Wells being alive and then watched STAR Labs. It *is* surprising that he didn't just bust in there though.

I hope they find some way to sort of exonerate him without killing Barry's father.

Lucky for Caitlin that this is a more kid-friendly program or else we'd have the makings of an episode of Criminal Minds.

[ottoDbusdriver]

8 hours ago, zannej said:

I'll have to go with what KirkB said and assume that Griffin just heard rumors about Harrison Wells being alive and then watched STAR Labs. It *is* surprising that he didn't just bust in there though.

Why would Griffin Grey even have to bust in to Star Labs ?  He could just walk in like everyone else does since the security is so shoddy.

[KirkB]

Shoddy? More like non existent. Pretty much every significant villain they've ever had, plus fairly random civilians, has just been able to wander right into the control room without them knowing about it. At least the first season kind of had the excuse of Thawne as Wells maybe letting it happen to test Barry but since then? 

Edited April 30, 2016 by KirkB

[johntfs]

As far as Harry's vehicle goes, "If this van's a rockin', it's being attacked by supervillains."

[Trini]

Abbreviated, late comments because of disappearing forums:

Wow, they keep using all the good Flash stories and villains. Do they want to use them before they’re embargoed by the movie? I don’t blame them.
Nice callback to that WestAllen scene in the pilot!
Speaking of callbacks, they should have chosen different rooftop for Wally’s meeting. That’s Barry+Iris’ special rooftop! So it's already in my head as a romantic spot.
I know he’s insane, but how can Zoom say he loves Caitlin when it was his double -- not him -- who was the one dating her? Stop being confusing, show! They keep treating both like they are one person. Or explain better.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Trini

[Whodunnit]

I think that Barry's lack of heroism ( in the sense of not looking for an option that didn't involve killing someone who committed a crime out of desperation) stemmed not only from the fact that Barry and company were worried that he would kill Harry, but also because without powers they were limited in what they could do. The problem with this is that the writers keep forgetting that they have a room full of geniuses which practically is a superpower and they should have at least tried to come up with a nonlethal option. ( I realize that Dr. Snow and Dr. Wells were gone, but Barry, Cisco, and Jesse were there.) I also think Barry might be feeling skittish about the fact that he was recently duped ( which is due to the character acting in a way that is far stupider than he is supposed to be just for the sake of plot in the previous episode).

Frankly, the whole situation lacked empathy... but then again all the guy needed to do to stop aging and die was to stop hitting things. Just stop. You are not a toddler. Take a deep breath, count backwards from ten, and go hire a lawyer who will file a class action lawsuit on behalf of all the metas created by the explosion against Star Labs.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Whodunnit
Because it is metas not meats.

[Actionmage]

Quote

go hire a lawyer who will file a class action lawsuit on behalf of all the metas created by the explosion against Star Labs.

File a lawsuit on behalf of the living metas created or their families. ;p

[Aeryn13]

Oh look, the episode where Barry lost his powers, they conveniently get a villain who self-expires at the 35 minute mark. 

Also Zoom suddenly realized he loves Caitlin and that`s why he took her? He only seemed to come to that conclusion when she appealed to him in the last episode not to kill Barry. Before that, it looked like he couldn`t care less. 

Not to mention, if he is that batshit crazy that he can`t even have a conversation for five seconds without having brain flashes of his tragic past, how in the everloving fuck could he convincingly play the nice guy not only on Earth 2 but over months on Earth 1, having all those romantic scenes with Caitlin. He never once slipped up, never once dropped the puppy dog act. He let himself be beaten as Jay trying to be a hero and fill in for Barry in that one ep. 

Original!Wells aka Eobard was not so obviously crazy, a lot smarter and genuinely good at playing the part in Season 1. And even he slipped up every now and then. Zoom must be the most committed actor in the entire multiverse. 

[zannej]

On 4/30/2016 at 10:37 AM, KirkB said:

Shoddy? More like non existent. Pretty much every significant villain they've ever had, plus fairly random civilians, has just been able to wander right into the control room without them knowing about it. At least the first season kind of had the excuse of Thawne as Wells maybe letting it happen to test Barry but since then? 

LOL! Yeah. I recently rewatched some of season 1 and noted that Eobard did not seem to be aware that Cisco built the cold gun and showed a bit of his dangerous temper with Cisco. His obsession with Barry and behavior then should have been a red flag. But, what was a bigger issue to me was that a janitor was able to steal the weapon. Uh... First: Why would they allow in cleaning staff that weren't well checked out? Second: Why wouldn't Eobard have known about the construction of the weapon AND the theft ahead of time when he had cameras everywhere? (except maybe at his own front door).

They said earlier that they improved security, but it doesn't seem like they did. The facility in the 90's series had better security.

On 4/30/2016 at 6:11 PM, johntfs said:

As far as Harry's vehicle goes, "If this van's a rockin', it's being attacked by supervillains."

LOL! What they need to do is just give him a plain black van or something nondescript that wouldn't draw attention. I started to think like a cake delivery truck or something-- but some nutjob would probably want to hijack it in the hopes there was cake-- and it would also be more memorable.

On 5/1/2016 at 1:26 PM, Trini said:

I know he’s insane, but how can Zoom say he loves Caitlin when it was his double -- not him -- who was the one dating her? Stop being confusing, show! They keep treating both like they are one person. Or explain better.

From what I understood, it was the surviving Zoom who spent most of the time with Caitlin but the remnant he encountered probably came after the whole falling in love part and only filled in for the breach closing part. At least, that is what I'm guessing.

At least it made more sense than a speed mirage making it so Eobard could be in two places at once (one in the Reverse Flash suit and another in the usual Harrison Wells outfit).

One of my pet peeves is when people of average intelligence try to write for geniuses and end up making them look stupid. Ever since Eobard/Wells poofed, the team has not been doing so well. I get that Eobard was probably smarter or at least more knowledgeable than Wells, but some of the plans have been pretty dumb-- granted, a lot of the time Wells did try to warn them and they didn't listen. The idea of Barry creating Gideon really seems far fetched when he had to constantly ask Eobard how to do things. Of course, part of that was that Eobard was older and more experienced. He was also a lot more patient. I really want them to put out some sort of lost journals of Eobard Thawne where he laments having to hold Barry's hand all the time and how he wished Barry would think for himself. I mean, I'm sure it was flattering that Barry needed him and that he knew he was smarter than Barry, but it had to have been a little bit annoying that he had previously been unable to defeat someone who was showing the cognitive abilities of a sack of rocks at times.

Have you ever been around someone who was so stupid that it made your brain hurt? It is incredibly aggravating.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh look, the episode where Barry lost his powers, they conveniently get a villain who self-expires at the 35 minute mark. 

Also Zoom suddenly realized he loves Caitlin and that`s why he took her? He only seemed to come to that conclusion when she appealed to him in the last episode not to kill Barry. Before that, it looked like he couldn`t care less. 

Not to mention, if he is that batshit crazy that he can`t even have a conversation for five seconds without having brain flashes of his tragic past, how in the everloving fuck could he convincingly play the nice guy not only on Earth 2 but over months on Earth 1, having all those romantic scenes with Caitlin. He never once slipped up, never once dropped the puppy dog act. He let himself be beaten as Jay trying to be a hero and fill in for Barry in that one ep. 

Original!Wells aka Eobard was not so obviously crazy, a lot smarter and genuinely good at playing the part in Season 1. And even he slipped up every now and then. Zoom must be the most committed actor in the entire multiverse. 

I don't think Zoom loves Caitlin, but he does love the idea that Caitlin, on some level, loved him.  At his core, Hunter Zoloman is the same sad, angry little boy who watched his mother get murdered by his father.  As an adult and now a superbeing, he's been taking out his grief and rage on the worlds around him.  Caitlin, with her kindness and caring for "Jay" reminds him of his mother, which adds a layer of creepy to their "romance."  Once he revealed himself, he realized he wanted to "keep" Caitlin, probably even gain her approval, so he took her.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, zannej said:

... From what I understood, it was the surviving Zoom who spent most of the time with Caitlin but the remnant he encountered probably came after the whole falling in love part and only filled in for the breach closing part. At least, that is what I'm guessing.

At least it made more sense than a speed mirage making it so Eobard could be in two places at once (one in the Reverse Flash suit and another in the usual Harrison Wells outfit). ...

Okay, that kinda makes sense... maybe. (Not sure if it fits with what they showed of Jay since the beginning of the season.) I just need it to make sense in my head.

[zannej]

I think a big part of the problem is lack of cohesive script coordination. I think the writers don't necessarily remember or know the details from another writer-- or they don't remember stuff from one episode to the next. Like how they kept saying that Jay got sick from Velocity 6 even though it hadn't existed until Wells developed it on Earth1 and then he eventually took Velocity 9 and they started saying it was what made him sick even though it was what seemed to be making him better-- unless their confusion with his DNA was because one of them was in worse shape than the other.

I also agree that Hunter does not actually love Caitlin, but he thinks he loves her. Basically he wants her and he misconstrues that as love.