Season 3

[dustylil]

8 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Richard believes in making sacrifices for the good of the family, or in doing what is expected. Chris was ready to do that. I don't think he wanted to do it, and Lorelai knew that which makes sense why she turned him down. Years later, Chris is ready to marry Sherry and support her and the baby. Again, it's not what he wants but he is willing to make that sacrifice. I think Richard respects that about him. 

Christopher was  willing to  marry Lorelai. Once that was no longer an option, he wasn't willing to make any sacrifices - like getting  a job and supporting his daughter. So while I can see Richard respecting the initial grand gesture, I would have thought he would have noted the absence of any  substantive involvement in Rory's life. And judged Christopher accordingly.

[txhorns79]

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Once that was no longer an option, he wasn't willing to make any sacrifices - like getting  a job and supporting his daughter.

Do we really know what Christopher may or may not have been willing to do when he was 17?  I mean, you are talking as though it's a certainty what was happening, when I don't really think we were given much insight.  I'd also probably say the standards by which Christopher's behavior might be judged were much different in the mid-80s than they would be in 2016.  That isn't to say he shouldn't have been more involved, he should have, but it's never been clear to me what exactly was happening.  From what we saw when we first met him, it looked like even if he wanted to provide support, he wouldn't have been able to.  I just presumed that his financial issues were an ongoing problem for him.           

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Maybe Jess was intercepting the notices mailed home. But it does stretch believability. 

 

Particularly since Luke's was right across the street from the high school!  Even if they didn't hear from him, it wasn't like they couldn't walk across the street to speak with Luke. 

[shron17]

35 minutes ago, dustylil said:

Christopher was  willing to  marry Lorelai. Once that was no longer an option, he wasn't willing to make any sacrifices - like getting  a job and supporting his daughter. So while I can see Richard respecting the initial grand gesture, I would have thought he would have noted the absence of any  substantive involvement in Rory's life. And judged Christopher accordingly.

My guess is that when Lorelai refused to marry Christopher, Richard thought that responsibility fell back on him, since he and Emily were more than capable of providing Lorelai and Rory with everything they could ever need or want.  So Lorelai running away to raise Rory on her own not only deeply hurt Emily but also meant Richard had failed to take care of them and keep them safe.in the Gilmore house.  It also fits with the way both Gilmore's continued to see Lorelai, as a child who was incapable of taking care of herself and her own child.

Edited June 11, 2016 by shron17

[dustylil]

10 minutes ago, shron17 said:

It also fits with the way both Gilmore's continued to see Lorelai, as a child who was incapable of taking care of herself and her own child.

Very true. And yet - based on what we saw in the first episode - both Richard and Emily viewed Christopher as a respected and successful businessman. At least Straub and Francine thought he was a bum ;)

[txhorns79]

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At least Straub and Francine thought he was a bum ;)

Of course, they also thought Lorelai was a slut who ruined their son, so I don't know how much weight to give their judgment. 

[readster]

2 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

On a totally different note, can we discuss for a moment how annoying an unrealistic it is that Jess wasn't going to graduate from Stars Hollow High and NO ONE from the school ever contacted Luke? He missed 31 days of school and no one ever called Luke? At my high school, even after I turned 18 and was legally an adult, my parents had to call in and explain why I wasn't there or else they would have called to notify my parents and find out on their own.

It wouldn't cut it that the principal tried to talk to set up meetings with Jess nine times or whatever the principal says he did - Jess is a minor.  Luke should have been told when Jess missed school.  And told again. And again. And again. It makes me crazy.

Right, I don't care how you look at it, no way would have Jess missed 31 days and not one way or another had been either called into the principal's office or Luke would have been notified. I do remember in the movie Coach Carter when one teacher said one of the team members either showed up in class or not but had never been reported to Samuel L Jackson's character's surprised. In real life, it was said by the actually Coach Carter, that he was called in because the player had been skipping class up to 4 days with no excuses. Funny how Hollywood thinks with kids skipping class: "They are just left to free roam, but hey try to buy tickets for prom and you are reported by your classmates in a second." 

[shron17]

1 minute ago, dustylil said:

Very true. And yet - based on what we saw in the first episode - both Richard and Emily viewed Christopher as a respected and successful businessman. At least Straub and Francine thought he was a bum ;)

I think both the Hayden's and the Gilmore's bought into those stereotypes about a pregnancy being more the girl's fault as opposed to something that was done to the boy.  With Richard and Emily, it was more subtle with praise for Christopher and digs at Lorelai.  E.g. from Haunted Leg:

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EMILY: A man is dead, a young woman ruined.
LORELAI: Consider the subject dropped.
EMILY: At least she had a husband to kill.
LORELAI: This is nice, isn’t it?

[txhorns79]

Shron, that quote is pretty funny!

[shron17]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

Shron, that quote is pretty funny!

She's so mean, but for some reason I always get a kick out of Emily insulting Lorelai.  Sometimes it's as much for Lorelai's reaction. I even enjoy Kropogs for that very reason.  I'm going to give myself the benefit of the doubt and say it's because of the stellar acting in those scenes.

[txhorns79]

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She's so mean, but for some reason I always get a kick out of Emily insulting Lorelai.

I think a lot of that is due to Kelly Bishop and her line readings.  She's wonderful.

[dustylil]

I am not so sure about subtle digs directed towards Lorelai, shron. In the pilot Richard at their first dinner  asks Loreai  - in front of Rory -

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And how are things at the motel?

Back to Jess for a moment. Undoubtedly, the school should have contacted Luke about the absenteeism. But Luke should  have had more than an inkling of trouble. As far back as the Poes episode, three episodes before Jimmy Mariano meandered into town, Luke should have suspected Jess must have been skipping school because he now knew he was working more than a full-time workweek at Walmart. Why didn't he immediately call the school  after he left the awards ceremony? Or later when  he and Lorelai discussed  Jess' activities and  she mentioned the possibility of not attending school to him? Luke chose not to believe the evidence in front  of him and not to take any action. Not that much - if anything - could have been done to save Jess' senior year, of course. But some kind of action plan for going forward might have been devised.

[hippielamb]

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

 From what we saw when we first met him, it looked like even if he wanted to provide support, he wouldn't have been able to.  I just presumed that his financial issues were an ongoing problem for him.           

 

Chris implied that his business was finally a success, which I took to mean he had a series of failed investments. He says the same to the Lorelai later after he straightens up and gets a job. I have always pictured pre-series Christopher as a wanderer, trying this and that but with no real success or responsibility.

18 hours ago, shron17 said:

My guess is that when Lorelai refused to marry Christopher, Richard thought that responsibility fell back on him, since he and Emily were more than capable of providing Lorelai and Rory with everything they could ever need or want.  So Lorelai running away to raise Rory on her own not only deeply hurt Emily but also meant Richard had failed to take care of them and keep them safe.in the Gilmore house.  It also fits with the way both Gilmore's continued to see Lorelai, as a child who was incapable of taking care of herself and her own child.

That's how I see it too. The Gilmores would have considered it their responsibility to support the girls and I think would have taken offence if anyone tried to help financially. Which I get. If your teen has a child, you are going to think of them both as dependents. 

18 hours ago, dustylil said:

Very true. And yet - based on what we saw in the first episode - both Richard and Emily viewed Christopher as a respected and successful businessman. At least Straub and Francine thought he was a bum ;)

It amuses me that Chris has this separate relationship with the Gilmores. We know from the pilot that he talks to Richard on the phone. Emily had the long conversation with him after she learned about Sherry's pregnancy. He knows how to stay on good terms with them while it's a struggle for Lorelai. Of course, what he tells them is not completely honest but he knows how to navigate a quasi in-law type relationship with them. 

[dustylil]

3 hours ago, hippielamb said:

The Gilmores would have considered it their responsibility to support the girls and I think would have taken offence if anyone tried to help financially. Which I get. If your teen has a child, you are going to think of them both as dependents. 

Of course the senior  Gilmore felt this way. And it was to their enormous credit. But Richard  and Emily were no longer supporting Lorelai and Rory even before Rory was even a toddler. Lorelai was doing that. But with respect, what has that to do with Christopher's ongoing obligations to his child?

[shron17]

1 hour ago, dustylil said:

Of course the senior  Gilmore felt this way. And it was to their enormous credit. But Richard  and Emily were no longer supporting Lorelai and Rory even before Rory was even a toddler. Lorelai was doing that. But with respect, what has that to do with Christopher's ongoing obligations to his child?

I do agree that Christopher still had an obligation to Rory even if Richard had continued to support Lorelai and Rory.  The fact that Lorelai moved out with her only made his lack of financial/parental support more obvious.  Given his parents' attitudes, his own lack of responsibility and the fact that Lorelai probably never asked, I do get why he didn't feel obligated.  At the very least after inheriting millions from his grandfather he should have gone straight to Rory after he took care of Gigi's future.  Luke, on the other hand, insisted on paying a share of support for April for her first 12 years the first time he spoke with Anna.

[dustylil]

22 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Given his parents' attitudes, his own lack of responsibility and the fact that Lorelai probably never asked, I do get why he didn't feel obligated.

Oh I get that too, shron. I merely thought it was morally indefensible on his part. Perhaps Sherry came to feel that way as well - maybe that is why she left him holding the baby :)

22 minutes ago, shron17 said:

At the very least after inheriting millions from his grandfather he should have gone straight to Rory after he took care of Gigi's future.  Luke, on the other hand, insisted on paying a share of support for April for her first 12 years the first time he spoke with Anna

I agree. Rather than waxing poetic on all the things he could buy for Lorelai, he should have been focussing on his own flesh and blood. At the time, Rory seemed to be an afterthought. I hope Luke's lawyer raised his insistence on paying 12 years of child support to the custody judge. That seemed far more significant to Luke's commitment to being in April's life than any letter from an ex-fiancée.

[txhorns79]

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Luke, on the other hand, insisted on paying a share of support for April for her first 12 years the first time he spoke with Anna.

And didn't Anna refuse him?  I don't remember if that moment ever came up again.  

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I merely thought it was morally indefensible on his part.

Of course, you could also argue that it was morally indefensible that Lorelai ran away from home with his daughter to live in a shed.  I know it has been discussed before, but I seriously doubt Lorelai even discussed what she planned with Chris before doing it, much less got his consent to run away with his child.  It's always interesting to me that there is so much focus on Chris' bad choices, when the reality is, Lorelai made a bat-shit crazy choice that put she and Rory in serious danger.  If Lorelai hadn't been taken in by a benevolent employer who basically took care of all of Rory and Lorelai's needs, she would have faced a very difficult path that likely would not have ended well. 

And while I agree when Chris was older, he should have provided support, who exactly would have been benefited by a teenage Chris dropping out of school, and getting some minimum wage job to offer some meager support to Lorelai and Rory, particularly when she was living with Richard and Emily?       

[Sweet Tee]

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 but I seriously doubt Lorelai even discussed what she planned with Chris before doing it, much less got his consent to run away with his child. 

Probably not.  But, I seriously doubt he cared.  Do we know that Chris was seeing Rory on any kind of regular basis before Lorelai took off?  Was he involved in her life when suddenly Lorelai disappeared with her?  It's not as if Lorelai went far or ever barred Chris from seeing his daughter if that was what he wanted.  And as far as we ever saw, he rarely did.  

[txhorns79]

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Do we know that Chris was seeing Rory on any kind of regular basis before Lorelai took off?  Was he involved in her life when suddenly Lorelai disappeared with her?

We don't really know either way.  However, it really wouldn't matter.  It's not like it's the mother's call to simply take off with the baby when she feels like it. 

[shron17]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

And didn't Anna refuse him?  I don't remember if that moment ever came up again.  

Of course, you could also argue that it was morally indefensible that Lorelai ran away from home with his daughter to live in a shed.  I know it has been discussed before, but I seriously doubt Lorelai even discussed what she planned with Chris before doing it, much less got his consent to run away with his child.  It's always interesting to me that there is so much focus on Chris' bad choices, when the reality is, Lorelai made a bat-shit crazy choice that put she and Rory in serious danger.  If Lorelai hadn't been taken in by a benevolent employer who basically took care of all of Rory and Lorelai's needs, she would have faced a very difficult path that likely would not have ended well. 

And while I agree when Chris was older, he should have provided support, who exactly would have been benefited by a teenage Chris dropping out of school, and getting some minimum wage job to offer some meager support to Lorelai and Rory, particularly when she was living with Richard and Emily?       

Anna said they didn't need anything but Luke insisted it was his responsibility too now that he knew and he wanted to offer whatever assistance he could.

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LUKE: I know you didn't, but she came to me, and now I know, and I want to help. I'm not talking about contact here. I know you've got your life, here. I don't want to mess things up. I just want to live up to my end of the bargain.
ANNA: You don't owe us anything, Luke. We want for nothing and always have. But if you want to chip in, then, sure, chip in.

As far as Lorelai leaving with Rory, Chris never mentioned not knowing where they were.  Lorelai could have just as easily gone farther from home and not kept in contact with Christopher over the years.  I realize I'm giving Lorelai the benefit of the doubt here, but it always seemed clear to me she was running away from from Richard and Emily, not trying to keep Rory away from her father.  Also, if I had to guess based on Rory at 16 and the type of parent Lorelai was at 32, I would imagine Lorelai would have had a plan and savings before she left to avoid putting Rory in any danger at all.

[txhorns79]

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As far as Lorelai leaving with Rory, Chris never mentioned not knowing where they were.  Lorelai could have just as easily gone farther from home and not kept in contact with Christopher over the years.  I realize I'm giving Lorelai the benefit of the doubt here, but it always seemed clear to me she was running away from from Richard and Emily, not trying to keep Rory away from her father.  Also, if I had to guess based on Rory at 16 and the type of parent Lorelai was at 32, I would imagine Lorelai would have had a plan and savings before she left to avoid putting Rory in any danger at all.

I agree that Lorelai wasn't running away to be rid of Chris, but it's also not her call to decide to run away with Rory without Christopher consenting.  It wasn't like this was an emergency situation.  In terms of Lorelai's plan, from what Mia described, Lorelai just randomly showed up looking for work. I always had the impression that Lorelai basically lucked into a job that provided her with what appeared to be free room and board for she and Rory.     

[shron17]

3 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree that Lorelai wasn't running away to be rid of Chris, but it's also not her call to decide to run away with Rory without Christopher consenting.  It wasn't like this was an emergency situation.  In terms of Lorelai's plan, from what Mia described, Lorelai just randomly showed up looking for work. I always had the impression that Lorelai basically lucked into a job that provided her with what appeared to be free room and board for she and Rory.     

I'm not sure about this but think it may have to do with whether Chris was recognized as Rory's legal father on her birth certificate.  Since he and Lorelai weren't married he wouldn't have been assumed to be Rory's father without some sort of documentation, without which he wouldn't have any legal obligation to support her or any legal rights to make a consent necessary.  You could say he had a moral right to be asked for permission, but that would only be a factor if he were seeing Rory on a regular basis during that time period. 

[txhorns79]

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I'm not sure about this but think it may have to do with whether Chris was recognized as Rory's legal father on her birth certificate.  Since he and Lorelai weren't married he wouldn't have been assumed to be Rory's father without some sort of documentation, without which he wouldn't have any legal obligation to support her or any legal rights to make a consent necessary.  You could say he had a moral right to be asked for permission, but that would only be a factor if he were seeing Rory on a regular basis during that time period. 

As far as I know, there was never any actual legal question as to Chris' status as Rory's father.   I mean, he was at the hospital immediately after the birth, and I don't see any reason that Lorelai would decline to name him for the purposes of the birth certificate.   

[dustylil]

5 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Lorelai could have just as easily gone farther from home and not kept in contact with Christopher over the years.  I realize I'm giving Lorelai the benefit of the doubt here, but it always seemed clear to me she was running away from from Richard and Emily, not trying to keep Rory away from her father.  Also, if I had to guess based on Rory at 16 and the type of parent Lorelai was at 32, I would imagine Lorelai would have had a plan and savings before she left to avoid putting Rory in any danger at all.

If Lorelai had not kept in contact or not told Christopher where she and Rory were living one would think that an appropriate response to her telling him over the years that the door was always open to him would be Christopher saying, "Yeah? Well what of when you first left your parents' home? I didn't know where you had gone! I was worried sick!" . Instead he gave a mumbled apology and said she was right.

Is there any evidence that Christopher didn't know Lorelai and Rory had left Hartford?

[Leonana]

1 hour ago, dustylil said:

If Lorelai had not kept in contact or not told Christopher where she and Rory were living one would think that an appropriate response to her telling him over the years that the door was always open to him would be Christopher saying, "Yeah? Well what of when you first left your parents' home? I didn't know where you had gone! I was worried sick!" . Instead he gave a mumbled apology and said she was right.

Is there any evidence that Christopher didn't know Lorelai and Rory had left Hartford?

I agree. I believe it was mentioned by Lorelai to Rory that Chris had promised to visit and had let her down before. I think it was the Cotillion episode, where Rory wanted him to escort her.

I checked the recaps of Presenting Lorelai Gilmore:

Lorelai says she knows that Christopher would rather sit through Endless Lovethan be a part of this, but it would mean a lot to Rory to have him there. Also, since he's constantly not there for her and he lets her down often, this might be a way to make it up to her, because he certainly owes her.

Rory asks whether Christopher said "definitely." He did, so Rory's happy that there's a 50/50 chance he'll show. Lorelai says that Christopher sounded pretty confident, so it might be a 60/40 chance he'll show. 

As far as I can tell, the show has always presented Christopher as neglectful of Rory during her first 16 years. I'm sure Lorelai wanted sole parenting, but the door was always open for him. I don't see him as horribly abusive in any way, and he did try to make up for it, so I give him credit for that. But I don't see how Lorelai can be blamed for his neglect.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Leonana

[txhorns79]

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If Lorelai had not kept in contact or not told Christopher where she and Rory were living one would think that an appropriate response to her telling him over the years that the door was always open to him would be Christopher saying, "Yeah? Well what of when you first left your parents' home? I didn't know where you had gone! I was worried sick!" . Instead he gave a mumbled apology and said she was right.

I don't think that response would make any sense within the context of that particular scene, or perhaps even as a response to being told that the door was always open to him.             

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Is there any evidence that Christopher didn't know Lorelai and Rory had left Hartford?

As far as I know, the show never mentions whether Lorelai told Christopher of her plans to leave her parents' home before she did it, or when he found out about what she had done. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

There was sufficient evidence, mostly through comments by Lorelai, that she kept Christopher informed about her whereabouts throughout Rory's life, I can't imagine that she would have not done that during the first year she was away from Hartford. I can easily imagine that Christopher visited occasionally before he went off to college and California. 

A borderline nitpick for me is that Lorelai's poverty in the first few weeks/months is implied, but we don't know what that really means. Richard's monetary gift to Rory on her birthday makes me believe that he did the same for her. I expect also that she had an allowance proportional to her position in society, and by extrapolation I don't think she was completely without money starting out. 

At seventeen, even with a baby, I'm sure the indefatigable Lorelai retained an attitude of the invincibility that teenagers have. She could probably have passed for eighteen and therefore an adult, so I think finding a job was primarily a question of her lack of marketable skills. It makes me wonder how often she'd been turned down before she met Mia. 

Did canon ever explain why she ended up in Stars Hollow?

[shron17]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

As far as I know, there was never any actual legal question as to Chris' status as Rory's father.   I mean, he was at the hospital immediately after the birth, and I don't see any reason that Lorelai would decline to name him for the purposes of the birth certificate.   

True.  Although I do wonder if his name was on the birth certificate why she was Rory Gilmore and not Hayden.  Either way, it seems very clear Christopher didn't have any legal rights or obligation to Rory, making it perfectly acceptable for Lorelai and Rory to move without his consent.

[txhorns79]

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Either way, it seems very clear Christopher didn't have any legal rights or obligation to Rory, making it perfectly acceptable for Lorelai and Rory to move without his consent.

I'm not certain if that would be true.  I felt like Chris may have never asserted his rights, rather than his not having any.  The same goes for Lorelai never appearing to force the issue of Chris' monetary obligations to Rory.  I do wonder if Lorelai really would have ever accepted Chris as a co-parent if he had really forced the issue at any point while Rory was a baby or small child.   

[shron17]

21 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm not certain if that would be true.  I felt like Chris may have never asserted his rights, rather than his not having any.  The same goes for Lorelai never appearing to force the issue of Chris' monetary obligations to Rory.  I do wonder if Lorelai really would have ever accepted Chris as a co-parent if he had really forced the issue at any point while Rory was a baby or small child.   

Legally, the rights go with the obligation.  So if Lorelai forced the issue of child support she would have to agree to visitation and possibly co-parenting (assuming Chris would want it).  And if Chris had wanted to be guaranteed co-parenting/visitation rights he would have to pay child support.  They could also not go to court and have an informal agreement, but in the case of a court order the other parent wouldn't have a choice but to comply with the terms.

Edited June 13, 2016 by shron17

[txhorns79]

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Legally, the rights go with the obligation.  So if Lorelai forced the issue of child support she would have to agree to visitation and possibly co-parenting.

That's not entirely true.  You have rights concerning your child regardless of your paying support, or any other obligation.  Now, you are right that a court can condition your rights on your performing certain tasks, and if one parent acts as a roadblock to another asserting their rights, you may need a court order to force the issue, but otherwise, your child is your child.    

[hippielamb]

16 hours ago, dustylil said:

Of course the senior  Gilmore felt this way. And it was to their enormous credit. But Richard  and Emily were no longer supporting Lorelai and Rory even before Rory was even a toddler. Lorelai was doing that. But with respect, what has that to do with Christopher's ongoing obligations to his child?

Richard and Christopher both believe there is only one way to be a father: marry the mother and support the child. It could be why Chris keeps bringing up marriage. He definitely sees Lorelai and Rory as a package deal.

Richard said something like, Sherry was allowing Chris to be a father (by marrying her). The implication being that Lorelai took that away from him by declining the marriage proposal. It's a very out-dated way of thinking. No one seems to consider the possibility of child support. Chris could have contributed later on as Rory was growing up but his life was so unpredictable that would have been unlikely. I think he took for granted Lorelai's independent nature.

 

39 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Legally, the rights go with the obligation.  So if Lorelai forced the issue of child support she would have to agree to visitation and possibly co-parenting (assuming Chris would want it).  And if Chris had wanted to be guaranteed co-parenting/visitation rights he would have to pay child support.  They could also not go to court and have an informal agreement, but in the case of a court order the other parent wouldn't have a choice but to comply with the terms.

Yes exactly. I don't think Chris would have tried to overrule her parenting decisions, he's very deferential to Lorelai in that area. But paying child support gives the non-custodial parent more of a say in things. I know a few single mothers (myself included) that never asked for child support because it can be a minefield.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

That's not entirely true.  You have rights concerning your child regardless of your paying support, or any other obligation.  

I'm fairly certain that's only the case when you are married to the child's mother.  When that's not the case, biological fathers don't automatically have legal rights.

[txhorns79]

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I'm fairly certain that's only the case when you are married to the child's mother.  When that's not the case, biological fathers don't automatically have legal rights.

I think the case law used to reflect that idea, but the courts have really moved away from making marriage the cornerstone on these things.  Provided that the biological father is on the birth certificate, and is held out by all as being the father, he's going to have legal rights to his child.  They might be limited as the situation requires, but I haven't heard of modern courts maintaining the idea that unmarried fathers are without rights unless the court affirmatively grants them. 

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

<snip> But paying child support gives the non-custodial parent more of a say in things. I know a few single mothers (myself included) that never asked for child support because it can be a minefield.

Same here. Saw what happened with that with some of my friends and decided it simply wasn't worth it, for either me or my daughter.

[junienmomo]

Happy Birthday, Baby

The battle between Tobin and Michel is the best part of this episode. Such entertaining animosity, and Tobin is TOTALLY out to get Michel. Michel knows this but Lorelai does not and accepts the sucking up as if it's sincere.

Teeny nitpick - she teases wanting a convertible for her birthday, but we never see her in the Jeep with the top open. 

Love how loving Jess is. This is where the 22.8 miles is brought up. Luke and Nicole, on the other hand, seem to be arranging a meeting rather than a date.

Love Luke's tossed off line: Ever worry that if a bird flies into your head it might never get out?

Rory got yet another pass on being mean when she told Pete to just do it with the pizza. 

Totally on Lorelai's side with the payback of the loan. Emily overreacted and Richard was very inconsiderate having a secret lunch hidden from his wife, not to mention that he didn't tell her about the investment for 36 years. Makes me think that Lorelai had actually modeled her behavior from him when she went around with Christopher without telling her boyfriend Luke about it in S5. 

[txhorns79]

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not to mention that he didn't tell her about the investment for 36 years.

It's weird he didn't tell her about the investment (or maybe he did at the beginning and she simply didn't remember), or that he had paid the investment out to Lorelai after it was cashed out.  There was a whole bunch of contrivance there. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

Keg! Max!

Not a great episode, but some fun moments.

Michel getting his dogs and his complete obsession with his babies.

Rory being so awkward at the party.
"Who wants to hear some tunes? OK, good, there's a consensus."
as she announces the band.

Jess has now bounced from very loving to Silent Boy, clearly
due to his not graduating. 

When I watch Lorelai suck at doing turndown service for Luke
and Nicole, I don't see any of the aplomb I would have expected
from her as a wonderful inn manager.
I also don't see any hint of something between her and Luke
that would justify his cruise question in the last episode of the season.

Lane is so unprepared to have a relationship. Her reaction to
Dave's dissatisfaction about Yong Chui--- was to get drunk. 

The whole Max/Lorelai sequence was just stupid, although his
comment "You had your shot" was pitch perfect. Her response of
"we can't avoid each other" was absurd, given that she'd chased
him down. That was kind of stalkerish until she agreed to not
see him again. We do leave the episode with Lorelai wondering what happened
to her love life (after the earlier discussion with Sookie about Alex)

The end of the episode leaves me with the question - who tattled on Jess? 
 

[junienmomo]

Say Goodnight, Gracie

We've completely lost our 'good' Rory by this time. When it comes out that even her mother says she was responsible for the raid, there are no actions taken out of guilt. No going to Kyle's dad and offering to help clean up or even apologize. Contrast this with the Rory who felt so bad about the breakup with Dean that she climbed his tree (dirty!) to apologize.

Luke's handling of Jess after the fight was appropriate and strong. Their ticking time bomb is that Luke doesn't yet know about Jess not graduating. This is pretty heavy stuff for a GG show. 

In the meantime, Lorelai's biggest concern is getting Rory ready for graduation. Lorelai clearly misses her parents, but Emily calls her on it appropriately when Lorelai checks in.
I have to say that I'm feeling pretty good about Lorelai seeing the consequences of her actions, e.g. when Rory gets invited to her grandparents for movie night, excluding Lorelai.

"I hate soda because the carbonation freaks me out." Love that Dave line.

Whoever wrote the Luke/Jess/Jimmy segment has my gratitude. I loved the drama, the acting and the dialog. 
I went back and played the Rory/Jess silent segment over and over. So beautiful and wonderfully acted.
I wonder if Luke ever told Lorelai about that.

Poor envious or confused Rory when Dean tells her he's getting married.

Mrs. Kim looks beautiful in black. Odd, when I look at Dave as he closes the door after talking to Mrs. Kim, I kept thinking of the Music Man.

LOL, as Lorelai and Sookie carry the casket and explain things to Fran's relative, Kirk is listening intently. I wonder how he used that information in the future. 

For me, this episode was the pinnacle of the Jess/Luke relationship, and very well done.

Edited June 14, 2016 by junienmomo

[hippielamb]

6 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Happy Birthday, Baby

The battle between Tobin and Michel is the best part of this episode. Such entertaining animosity, and Tobin is TOTALLY out to get Michel. Michel knows this but Lorelai does not and accepts the sucking up as if it's sincere.

 

Totally on Lorelai's side with the payback of the loan. Emily overreacted and Richard was very inconsiderate having a secret lunch hidden from his wife, not to mention that he didn't tell her about the investment for 36 years. Makes me think that Lorelai had actually modeled her behavior from him when she went around with Christopher without telling her boyfriend Luke about it in S5. 

I love Tobin! He's hilarious. It's so much fun to watch him and Michel. 

I agree with Lorelai too and I am glad she told Rory she was in the right. What kind of example would that be to show her daughter it's ok to not pay back a loan? Rory annoys me a little in this particular scene, because she's not considering her mother's feelings. 

Richard has a tendency to hide things from Emily, though in this instance I think he is doing it to protect Emily's feelings. 

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I also don't see any hint of something between her and Luke
that would justify his cruise question in the last episode of the season.

 

I have wondered about this because it seems like something happened between them that made him question things. Maybe Lorelai telling him about her dream, though that's a big leap. It feels tacked on, like they wanted to reignite the Luke/Lorelai friction.

[shron17]

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

When I watch Lorelai suck at doing turndown service for Luke and Nicole, I don't see any of the aplomb I would have expected
from her as a wonderful inn manager.  I also don't see any hint of something between her and Luke that would justify his cruise question in the last episode of the season.

See, I think this is the whole point.  Lorelai was very uncomfortable in the scene with Luke and Nicole, and Luke has been around her enough to know the difference. The cruise question does feel a little tacked on, but I think it's a continuation of what went on when Luke gave her the fishing lesson and she hesitated to tell him about Alex.  Then the things that happened in Poes and their conversations show how comfortable and supportive their friendship is, Luke doesn't want to mention Lorelai to Nicole, and then Lorelai tells him about the dream but stops short of mentioning the kiss. I can see how the scene at the Dragonfly would make Luke wonder if Lorelai has a problem with him being with Nicole, and that the cruise question was him saying their relationship isn't that serious if she might be interested.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree with Lorelai too and I am glad she told Rory she was in the right. What kind of example would that be to show her daughter it's ok to not pay back a loan? Rory annoys me a little in this particular scene, because she's not considering her mother's feelings. 

I'm more mixed on this.  I do agree that Lorelai's intent was not to hurt Emily.  However, I do think Lorelai must have had an idea as to what would happen if she paid off the entire thing at once, particularly since things were already in a state of flux with Rory's imminent high school graduation.  I would have probably suggested to her that she pay the loan off in parts, to get Emily used to the idea that the loan was being paid back, and the FNDs would soon end.  This was as opposed to essentially dropping the check on her like a bomb at the dinner.  

As to setting an example for Rory, she's 18 by that point.  If after already seeing her mother on the edge of the financial abyss with the termites, I don't know if she really will be looking to Lorelai for financial guidance. 

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

I love Tobin! He's hilarious. It's so much fun to watch him and Michel. 

I agree with Lorelai too and I am glad she told Rory she was in the right. What kind of example would that be to show her daughter it's ok to not pay back a loan? Rory annoys me a little in this particular scene, because she's not considering her mother's feelings. 

Richard has a tendency to hide things from Emily, though in this instance I think he is doing it to protect Emily's feelings. 

I have wondered about this because it seems like something happened between them that made him question things. Maybe Lorelai telling him about her dream, though that's a big leap. It feels tacked on, like they wanted to reignite the Luke/Lorelai friction.

I always wondered what Luke meant when he asked Lorelai if he shold go "considering everything ". What is everything?  Then they throw in his dream showing he is thinking of her. They began and ended this season with L&L dreaming of each other without much action in between. 

[txhorns79]

Triple post. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by txhorns79

[JaggedLilPill]

I think that would have been a good compromise. That being said, I do fully support Lorelai paying back the loan, and I wasn't fond of Rory's response to it. 

Then again, I wonder if Emily just never expected Lorelai to ever be able to pay the money back. I don't think Emily even wanted it back, ever. It does make me feel for Emily a bit. She has a very hard exterior shell, but inside is a woman who really just wants to have a relationship with her daughter. And I think deep down, Lorelai wants a relationship with her mother. But they are just both so stubborn and misguided that it makes it nearly impossible at times and makes it difficult to not hurt each other's feelings, despite the intention never being one of malice.

For Emily, Lorelai paying back the loan was her gloating that she no longer was obligated to spend time with her. But for Lorelai, taking the loan in the first place was hard and she always intended to pay it back. 

I did like the scene with Rory and Lorelai in the kitchen discussing Lorelai's non-birthday plans. Lorelai's "Why are you so cruel to mama?" never fails to get a laugh out of me.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Then again, I wonder if Emily just never expected Lorelai to ever be able to pay the money back. I don't think Emily even wanted it back, ever. It does make me feel for Emily a bit. She has a very hard exterior shell, but inside is a woman who really just wants to have a relationship with her daughter. And I think deep down, Lorelai wants a relationship with her mother. But they are just both so stubborn and misguided that it makes it nearly impossible at times and makes it difficult to not hurt each other's feelings, despite the intention never being one of malice.

I feel comfortable in saying that I am certain Emily never wanted the loan paid back.  It speaks to just how damaged Lorelai and Emily's relationship was that I think Emily honestly believed that the only way she could have a relationship with Lorelai was if it was forced.  From Emily's point of view, I do think she saw the loan payback as Lorelai saying: "You see, the second I was able, I paid back the loan to ensure I could get away from you.  You thought we had developed a relationship, but I'm here to make it clear to you we did not."  

[JaggedLilPill]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I feel comfortable in saying that I am certain Emily never wanted the loan paid back.  It speaks to just how damaged Lorelai and Emily's relationship was that I think Emily honestly believed that the only way she could have a relationship with Lorelai was if it was forced.  From Emily's point of view, I do think she saw the loan payback as Lorelai saying: "You see, the second I was able, I paid back the loan to ensure I could get away from you.  You thought we had developed a relationship, but I'm here to make it clear to you we did not."  

Absolutely. Lorelai even says as much to Emily. It is a very damaged relationship. 

Freud would have had a field day with the dysfunctional parent-child relationships on this show. 

[junienmomo]

Imagine how taken aback Lorelai would have been if Emily had looked at the check, said Thank You for paying it back, then tore it up, saying, "Now please use the money for your inn and Rory's education."

That would have given Emily  a chance to express her wishes, would have made FND optional, and Lorelai would have to either accept the new relationship status or really dump on her mother. That would have been a fun season 4 between Emily and Lorelai redefining their relationship.

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, FictionLover said:

I always wondered what Luke meant when he asked Lorelai if he shold go "considering everything ". What is everything?  Then they throw in his dream showing he is thinking of her. They began and ended this season with L&L dreaming of each other without much action in between. 

That's exactly it!

Since rewatching the Mimi scene, I've been convinced that Luke had decided that their relationship would never progress past friendship (I mean, how painful was it to hear her talk about having wanted and lost Christopher?)

That was a perfect setup for Lorelai's dream in the first episode. She had no deep relationship with a guy, Christopher was off the table; she was pretty much down to her last resort. Her dream world produced Luke as her last resort. Of course, she never took action, because, well, ASP. As far as I can tell, Lorelai never even considered Luke, with the possible exception of fishing lessons.

Luke, on the other hand, seemed determined to move forward as friends. I can't think of a single time in Season 3 when he did anything resembling the "moments" of the early seasons.

Maybe in the last two episode of S3 there will be a hint that justifies the cruise question, I haven't rewatched them yet. 

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

That's exactly it!

Since rewatching the Mimi scene, I've been convinced that Luke had decided that their relationship would never progress past friendship (I mean, how painful was it to hear her talk about having wanted and lost Christopher?)

That was a perfect setup for Lorelai's dream in the first episode. She had no deep relationship with a guy, Christopher was off the table; she was pretty much down to her last resort. Her dream world produced Luke as her last resort. Of course, she never took action, because, well, ASP. As far as I can tell, Lorelai never even considered Luke, with the possible exception of fishing lessons.

Luke, on the other hand, seemed determined to move forward as friends. I can't think of a single time in Season 3 when he did anything resembling the "moments" of the early seasons.

Maybe in the last two episode of S3 there will be a hint that justifies the cruise question, I haven't rewatched them yet. 

They would throw us a bone now and then; the dance marathon and several times of Lorelai being jealous, but no more longoing looks.  But your theory at least makes "Luke can see her face" more sence. Do you think maybe ASP changed her mind about the pairing but was forced into it?

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Imagine how taken aback Lorelai would have been if Emily had looked at the check, said Thank You for paying it back, then tore it up, saying, "Now please use the money for your inn and Rory's education."

That would have given Emily  a chance to express her wishes, would have made FND optional, and Lorelai would have to either accept the new relationship status or really dump on her mother. That would have been a fun season 4 between Emily and Lorelai redefining their relationship.

That could have been really cool for season four and fun to watch them navigate a relationship without money. Season four would have been perfect for it. We could have had Emily and Lorelai redefining their relationship, at the same time Lorelai and Rory would be redefining theirs with Rory now in college and living away from home.