Crime After Crime: Future Season Wishlist

[Kromm]

How about a crime that doesn't necessarily involve death?

The aforementioned Central Park Five case was rape (and improper prosecution based on race).

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I was just thinking that the Patty Hearst case might be interesting.  It has the super wealthy element, and Stockholm syndrome wasn't as accepted then as it is today.  I wonder if there would be much interest in that though?  Possibly, if they amped up the wealthy family history. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Kromm]

Maybe because I don't pay much attention but I can't think of a major "crime" that doesn't involve death. 

Rape.  Double down for rape cases involving race.

Kidnapping/keeping sexual slaves (the Ariel Castro kidnappings, and many others)

Cult brainwashing.

Police shooting civilians (the victims don't necessarily die, although admittedly those are the ones we hear about).

Police beating civilians (with nightsticks and such).

Riots/Mob justice (for example the Crown Heights affair--where admittedly there were two deaths, but it still would have been a major incident even without that).

False arrest/imprisonment.

Racial profiling.

Church burnings.

Terrorism (which involves death, but if it's stopped before the death is still a crime in of itself).

Serial Arson (which may involve death, but doesn't have to).

Treason.

Toxic waste disposal crimes.

Land scams/real estate swindles (if they're on a large scale).

Ponzi schemes, when they get big enough (i.e. Bernie Madoff)

 

If I think on it a bit I could probably come up with more. Overall I'd say that list proves that death is not an inherent condition for all major crimes.

Yeah, I was just thinking that the Patty Hearst case might be interesting.  It has the super wealthy element, and Stockholm syndrome wasn't as accepted then as it is today.  I wonder if there would be much interest in that though?  Possibly, if they amped up the wealthy family history. 

It's an interesting situation, but looking at Ryan Murphy and his choices so far, do we really see him doing a season that isn't based on a case with a social justice angle?

Edited April 9, 2016 by Kromm

[psychoticstate]

I don't have that much really. 

 

My sister didn't want to talk about it much, even years later.  She told me about the station wagon, and I remember thinking that she was always good in emergencies, but still,  that was a very smart move for a 17 year old girl.  She was always brave though.  She looked just like all the other victims, slender, long dark hair parted down the middle, pretty.  She was walking home from school and it was only about 2 blocks from the freeway entrance.  This would have been 1971 or 72 I think.  Bundy pulled over to ask directions, handsome, youngish guy, and when she put her hand in to point to the right area of the map (or whatever it was) he grabbed her arm.  He had a huge knife, I do remember that, that it was a knife, not a gun.  At that moment I think she was stunned and slower to react, but about 5-7 minutes later she'd hatched her plan to jump from the speeding car.  She knew that freeway would take them right into the Wasatch mountains, since we went up there all the time, and she knew about the first body parts that had been found.

 

The one thing she did tell me was that she waited for the right car to be behind them, and when she saw the station wagon full of kids, she acted.  She didn't try to jump before because she was afraid he'd just stop and then recapture her.  I also remember the police telling my mother they were amazed she was alive after the jump, but then the FBI showed up, and the police didn't come again.

 

I can't ask her anything more, because she died two years ago from breast cancer.  I still remember that night that his face came on the TV though, and her shock.  I know she was fearful they would have her testify, she really didn't want to see him in court, but they never even called.  She was very happy when he was convicted.  That's about it really. 

ETA

Thinking about it, I can't remember what year of high school she was in, and I know the FBI came after I moved to California, because she would often complain about the FBI still questioning her about her abduction many years later.  My guess is, since they didn't charge him with murders during that time, because they had much more evidence of later crimes, she wasn't called to testify.

 

Also, the reason I remember the knife is that I thought, why didn't you run then, what's the worst he could do, cut you?  You were on a busy, busy road (13th east) someone would have stopped.  I never said that to her though.

 

Also, I fixed the dates, based on the year she graduated.

 

Umbelina, I am absolutely amazed by your post.  Bundy is one of the few cases that I obsess over and never get tired of analyzing and reading.  Very few females who were ever in Bundy's car managed to escape; he was that "efficient", for lack of better word.  Regardless, I do think there are probably more victims and potential victims out there that have either never been identified, didn't realize who they had a run in with or were never found. 

 

Are you sure about the 1971 or 1972 dates?  Bundy was in Washington then but the FBI never connected him to Utah crimes until the fall of 1974 (and he never confessed to Utah crimes prior to 1974.)  In fact, the FBI doesn't believe he started his murder spree until January of 1974 (which I disagree with; I believe he started killing many years earlier but only started abducting and killing on a regular basis in 1973/1974.) 

 

In any event, I am glad that your sister survived that horrifying event.   She was clearly an exceptional teen to think of jumping with a station wagon behind her.  I can't' even imagine. 

 

Hugs.

[Umbelina]

She graduated in 1973, so yes, I'm sure it was between late '69 and 1973.  She was definitely in high school, because the stupid vice principal gave a lecture about the dangers of hitch-hiking, basically accusing her of causing her own abduction, and it deeply upset her.  I know we went to the school board about that and he was forced to issue an apology, even though her name wasn't used, the kids all knew it was her.  She was less than 2 minutes from home walking, there is no way she was hitch hiking, which by the way, she was always afraid of, remember Manson had happened shortly before.

 

We didn't know why in hell they kept questioning her back then.  She felt that they thought she was guilty of something.  She was pretty upset by the FBI, and felt harassed.  Of course, later, when it all came out, it was very clear.  In hindsight, I think the FBI was already linking together the missing women, and the bodies, or body parts they had found around the west, and possibly even simply because of her appearance (same as all the others) was putting it together that they had, or at least suspected a serial killer.  She was, as you said, one of the few who had actually seen the guy.

 

My guess is that the FBI focused on his later cases for the conviction, and there were SO many, and so much evidence of the later crimes, why muddy the waters with earlier abductions or murders which could allow the defense an opening into evidence that wasn't as strong?  If I've learned nothing else from the OJ case, I've learned that the prosecution needs to be careful about what they introduce.  For example, as I said, they never even contacted her about his trial, but for years before he was caught, she was sporadically questioned, and pulled in to look at suspect photos, and composite drawings.

 

So, yeah, because I know her, I am positive he was killing and abducting years before the crimes they actually charged, and also that the FBI was on to more than they let on back then.

 

ETA

Yeah, maybe that's part of the reason she got away, Bundy had yet to find his efficiency groove.  Although I doubt he suspected her capable of jumping from a car going that fast.

ETA

I don't think she wouldn't have been upset with the FBI questions had we known, or she known, that they were trying to find a serial killer, but they never let on, she felt they just kept asking the same things over and over, and she'd already told them everything she could remember.  Hindsight is easy, and we all should have guessed, but I don't think we did.  Too bizarre to think about.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Crs97]

One of the things I appreciated about this season is that we didn't actually see the murders happen. I am afraid that some of these ideas will require a reenactment of the actual murder. I don't want to see it.

Regarding Katrina, they better devote at least part of an episode to the reaction of Houston. National government might have failed, but the mayor and Houstonians really stepped up for their neighbors.

Umbelina, I cannot even imagine. So glad your sister survived that horror, and so sorry that you lost her to cancer.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Crs97

[psychoticstate]

She graduated in 1973, so yes, I'm sure it was between late '69 and 1973.  She was definitely in high school, because the stupid vice principal gave a lecture about the dangers of hitch-hiking, basically accusing her of causing her own abduction, and it deeply upset her.  I know we went to the school board about that and he was forced to issue an apology, even though her name wasn't used, the kids all knew it was her.  She was less than 2 minutes from home walking, there is no way she was hitch hiking, which by the way, she was always afraid of, remember Manson had happened shortly before.

 

We didn't know why in hell they kept questioning her back then.  She felt that they thought she was guilty of something.  She was pretty upset by the FBI, and felt harassed.  Of course, later, when it all came out, it was very clear.  In hindsight, I think the FBI was already linking together the missing women, and the bodies, or body parts they had found around the west, and possibly even simply because of her appearance (same as all the others) was putting it together that they had, or at least suspected a serial killer.  She was, as you said, one of the few who had actually seen the guy.

 

My guess is that the FBI focused on his later cases for the conviction, and there were SO many, and so much evidence of the later crimes, why muddy the waters with earlier abductions or murders which could allow the defense an opening into evidence that wasn't as strong?  If I've learned nothing else from the OJ case, I've learned that the prosecution needs to be careful about what they introduce.  For example, as I said, they never even contacted her about his trial, but for years before he was caught, she was sporadically questioned, and pulled in to look at suspect photos, and composite drawings.

 

So, yeah, because I know her, I am positive he was killing and abducting years before the crimes they actually charged, and also that the FBI was on to more than they let on back then.

 

ETA

Yeah, maybe that's part of the reason she got away, Bundy had yet to find his efficiency groove.  Although I doubt he suspected her capable of jumping from a car going that fast.

ETA

I don't think she wouldn't have been upset with the FBI questions had we known, or she known, that they were trying to find a serial killer, but they never let on, she felt they just kept asking the same things over and over, and she'd already told them everything she could remember.  Hindsight is easy, and we all should have guessed, but I don't think we did.  Too bizarre to think about.

 

While Bundy did score some of his victims because of hitchhiking being so common then, the majority of his victims did not.  In fact, quite a few of them were very close to their homes or rooms when he got them.  Back then we as a society thought we could recognize dangerous and evil people - - they must look like Manson or Ed Kemper.  Bundy was an anamoly for the times - - he was considered attractive, he was an intelligent law student, many thought he had a career in politics ahead of him and he had a long term girlfriend.  Most people believed that someone as attractive and liked as Bundy wouldn't need to abduct, rape and kill.  Now we know so differently. 

 

I don't know what the FBI's motives were other than maybe trying to see into the mind of Bundy and other abductors/rapists/killers like him.  I sympathize with your sister because it would be totally normal for her to blame herself in some fashion.  She was so young, how could she not?  Adult women might.  She did nothing wrong and that's the thing that Bundy prowled for.  He expected and depended on young women and girls having a good and kind heart and wanting to help; many of his victims fell prey to him because they thought they were helping someone in need (a man with a broken leg; a man with a sling on his arm; a man brandishing a badge).

 

It wouldn't surprise me that Bundy was driving into Utah in 1971 or 1972.  Again, before him enforcement believed that killers pretty much stayed in one location.  He taught them that some killers were mobile, killing outside of their own geographic areas. 

[Umbelina]

Yeah, he moved around a lot.  My brother probably remembers the exact year, I'll ask him when I talk to him, he's kind of hard to get by phone.  I think you are right, she probably felt guilt, and the FBI couldn't exactly trust a scared teenager enough to tell her why they kept questioning her about the same event for years.  As I said, she rarely spoke about it, she remembered the station wagon, and her plan to jump,  but not the jump, for example.  She remembers the couple from the station wagon running down the hill to her, but not how she got to the hospital.

Ha.  Just remembered something else, this was all during the horrible Vietnam War and protests years, the FBI wasn't exactly beloved, nor were they that fond of people who looked like "hippies" which my sister definitely did.  That might account for a few things.

Anyway, glad they caught him, but I don't think I want to watch a show about his horrific crimes, and it doesn't really fit the mold of his social stories.

 

Patty Hearst though, might.  At least it has the class thing, and I remember then thinking it was so horrible that she was found guilty of anything, once the details of her capture and the closet came out.  I'm severely claustrophobic and I would have probably agreed to anything just to get out of that closet, and much faster than she did.  Threats to my family would have worked as well, she wasn't much more than a kid herself.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[ShadowHunter]

Umbelina, I am sorry about your sister. I cant even imagine.

 

Menendez: A Killing in Beverly Hills the TV movie from 1994 is on the Oxygen channel right now and in the credits they mention how some of the material was used from the Dominick Dunne article. That would have been good for S2 they could have used the same actor to play Dunne again.

 

Some people have mentioned Manson Ryan said that for S3 of AHS he wanted to use that story but was having trouble getting the rights and mentioned money.

Edited April 9, 2016 by ShadowHunter

[Kromm]

Menendez is yet another one where I don't think there's any real social justice angle, other than a vague one about rich entitled assholes. 

 

Manson seems perfect for AHS, because there's no such trend on that show. Now admittedly 2 seasons may not be enough to say 100% that it's a trend on ACS, but really I can't imagine any other reason why Hurricane Katrina would have been the season 2 pick with so many more direct "True Crime" stories out there. Social INjustice and showing the angles of that is the link between the seasons.

[Umbelina]

Now you guys will begin to suspect me of internet-crazy, but I just remembered her other brush with crime.  She was on the Grand Jury for the Elizabeth Smart case, and I promise I'm not nuts, but go ahead and think so if you want.  She wasn't permitted to tell people, but told me about it later.

 

So, three brushes with famous cases.

Abduction/escape from Bundy

Suspected of being Patty Hearst, and detained, taken in.  *but that happened to a lot of young women, massive hunt for her after the bank robbery.

Grand Jury for Elizabeth Smart.

 

That's all of it.  I've wracked my brain, and no other connections to major crime in her life, or in any of my other friends or families lives either. 

[psychoticstate]

Yeah, he moved around a lot.  My brother probably remembers the exact year, I'll ask him when I talk to him, he's kind of hard to get by phone.  I think you are right, she probably felt guilt, and the FBI couldn't exactly trust a scared teenager enough to tell her why they kept questioning her about the same event for years.  As I said, she rarely spoke about it, she remembered the station wagon, and her plan to jump,  but not the jump, for example.  She remembers the couple from the station wagon running down the hill to her, but not how she got to the hospital.

Ha.  Just remembered something else, this was all during the horrible Vietnam War and protests years, the FBI wasn't exactly beloved, nor were they that fond of people who looked like "hippies" which my sister definitely did.  That might account for a few things.

Anyway, glad they caught him, but I don't think I want to watch a show about his horrific crimes, and it doesn't really fit the mold of his social stories.

 

Patty Hearst though, might.  At least it has the class thing, and I remember then thinking it was so horrible that she was found guilty of anything, once the details of her capture and the closet came out.  I'm severely claustrophobic and I would have probably agreed to anything just to get out of that closet, and much faster than she did.  Threats to my family would have worked as well, she wasn't much more than a kid herself.

 

I'm not surprised your sister didn't remember the jump/fall or transport to the hospital.  The brain does all types of things to protect itself.  The event had to have been so horribly traumatic that your sister did what she could do to protect herself from further emotional hurt and injury. 

 

Patty Hearst would be interesting.  Perhaps also the Charles Starkweather case, in which there was a debate over whether his 14 or 15 year old girlfriend was a willing accomplice or acting under duress.  The film Badlands was based on the case.   The death of Thelma Todd would be interesting (at least to me.)  It is old Hollywood (1935, I think) but there is a mob connection (Lucky Luciano) and a question of whether Todd committed suicide, died accidentally or was murdered. 

 

As far  as conspiracies go, 9-11 is probably one of the greatest (although I think that would be terrible to watch.) 

[Kromm]

Even going beyond any overt social justice play, the other reason I think Murphy would avoid stuff like Charles Starkweather and Patty Hearst (not to mention Fatty Arbuckle, Charles Manson, etc. etc. etc.) is the total lack of diversity for any potential cast for those projects. Even if it wasn't pretty much Murphy's core mode for the past few years to have diverse casts, his existing viewership for the show--the viewership he built with THIS season and will enhance with a season about Katrina--is going to include a lot of people who specifically watched BECAUSE it was about OJ, a black athlete, or New Orleans, a largely black city. And I don't think Hollywood is going to be over phrases like "#Oscarssowhite" by the time Season 3 is being planned.

 

I suspect the true legacy of ACS being such a success will be copycat shows, and I'm thinking they won't necessarily have the same mandates. Popularizing season long stories of True Crime, but without the social impetus a Ryan Murphy tends to include in most of his projects. So most of these great ideas? I could see other channels, other showrunners doing them. Just not Ryan Murphy--at least at this point in his career where he has enough pull to pick the subject matter of what he does.

[Umbelina]

I'd like a spy/treason investigation, even an old one.  Then again, that's probably because The Americans is my favorite show, and I've loved spy stuff for years.

 

Just SO many of the crimes we've thought about have already been done.  I even watched the very cleaned up Elizabeth Smart TV thing, but frankly, her testimony was much more chilling that the television show.  Manson's been done to death.  I know people were fascinated with Jodi Arias, but I don't really care about that, no social statement or question there either.

 

The more we've talked about this, the more I realize WHY they chose Katrina!~

[Kromm]

The more we've talked about this, the more I realize WHY they chose Katrina!~

It's both different than the current season, and yet in other ways the same. Different: the media focus. It was a media-centric event, but the reporting was in part a scramble to report on the actual flooding, and then a slow burn over years to uncover and report the corruption angles (and an even longer burn to dig at the racial issues that were uncovered).

 

This means that unlike the OJ season, I suspect Season 2 is going to be spread over several years. And a core cast that will be scattered, not centralized like the OJ case. They'll have X and Y people who lived through the disaster in person.  No doubt they'll do that from a few angles, so X and Y might be poor black people from one of the poorer wards, and they'll have some Person Z, who's seeing it from some other social position.  They'll have some politicians. Some cops.  And I'm betting they'll have one or possibly several Journalist characters, who may even start the season sitting in New York watching the disaster unfold on TV like everyone else. 

 

If we pick at the net a bit I'm sure we can come up with real people who fill all these roles, many who may have superficial resemblances to people already in Ryan Murphy's acting stable, and guess who the characters may be.

[Umbelina]

Yes, not to mention the people who arrived to help.  There are so many stories.  An internet friend of mine, who later became a real life friend, had so many horrific stories just from her immediate family and self.  Also, I remember other countries offering to help, and the US refusal saying they had it handled.  It's a minefield, and even for people who just watched, if you didn't really know someone personally involved I think so much wasn't communicated, even with all of the television coverage.

 

I don't know how the people who really WERE there will react, because obviously they won't be able to capture all of it.

 

It's so completely horrible though, I'm not sure about watching it.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Kromm]

Yeah, FEMA will figure into it. And maybe the Dubya Bush White House,

[JakeyJokes]

If they do Patty Hearst, could they have Nathan Lane reprise his role as F. Lee Bailey? They'll have to age him backwards, but Ryan Murphy's done that before with his female leads.

 

I volunteered in Mississippi about seven months after Katrina and it is an experience that will always stick with me.

[Kromm]

If they do Patty Hearst, could they have Nathan Lane reprise his role as F. Lee Bailey? They'll have to age him backwards, but Ryan Murphy's done that before with his female leads.

So what roles would Cuba Gooding, Sterling K. Brown, Kenneth Choi, Courtney B. Vance, Malcolm-Jamal Warner, (deep breath) and from the talent pool Murphy draws from for American Horror Story, Angela Bassett, Gabourey Sidibe, Richard T. Jones and Morris Chestnut play in that?

 

That said, I really do hope of all the ACS Season 1 cast, that Lane in particular is back as SOMETHING. I enjoyed his performance more than almost anyone else's. He made Lee this fascinating combination of slimy and funny that was really watchable.

 

Not that Murphy doesn't constantly draw in new players. But for Patty Hearst those players would all be well... one skin color.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Kromm

[BW Manilowe]

So what roles would Cuba Gooding, Sterling K. Brown, Kenneth Choi, Courtney B. Vance, Malcolm-Jamal Warner, (deep breath) and from the talent pool Murphy draws from for American Horror Story, Angela Bassett, Gabourey Sidibe, Richard T. Jones and Morris Chestnut play in that?

That said, I really do hope of all the ACS Season 1 cast, that Lane in particular is back as SOMETHING. I enjoyed his performance more than almost anyone else's. He made Lee this fascinating combination of slimy and funny that was really watchable.

Not that Murphy doesn't constantly draw in new players. But for Patty Hearst those players would all be well... one skin color.

No they wouldn't be all one skin color. Some of the members of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA), which was responsible for kidnapping Patty Hearst, were African American. I remember a guy named/who went by the name of Cinque, who I think was the leader. He was African American; so were others in the group.

[Kromm]

No they wouldn't be all one skin color. Some of the members of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA), which was responsible for kidnapping Patty Hearst, were African American. I remember a guy named/who went by the name of Cinque, who I think was the leader. He was African American; so were others in the group.

Okay, I admit I'd forgotten that.

 

But that leads to a followup issue. Were any of the "good guys" (law enforcement, media, friends and relatives) black or brown?  Or just the bad guys?

 

I guess I'm saying that even a smidgen of diversity can backfire if the story only has them on one side.

[FozzyBear]

Ok I'm going to get a ton of names, spelling, and terms wrong. Just bear with me.

Dan White (The Twinkie defense)

The Reosenburg espionage case

The Bernie Madoff financial case

The Falcon and the Snowman case (although there is already an excellent movie about that case)

The Chicago Seven

The many trials of Abbie Hoffman

The Girl Six case ( I may have that name wrong. It's a rape case involving a girl who was hired to be a dancer or something at a party in the earlier days of Hollywood)

Phil Spector

Amanda Knox

Divid Berkowitz/Son of Sam

That bizarre case in NYC in the late 1990s about the landlord who murdered someone(I forget the details. It was his wife or mother in law. The building was in Chelsea. I just remember the whole thing got very weird. Does anyone remember this?)

Yes, I am a true crime junkie. What do you ask?

Edited April 9, 2016 by FozzyBear

[Epeolatrix]

Girl 27 is the famous 1937 rape case; there's a documentary by that name that might still be on Netflix.

[Kromm]

So it sounds like NBC's Law & Order: True Crime show is going to copycat ACS, but given their first choice of subject matter--the Menendez Brothers--probably not with the slant of social justice I suspect Murphy is going to stick with.

 

http://tvline.com/2016/04/06/law-order-true-crime-nbc-menendez-brothers-new-series/

[bmoore4026]

aethera, on 08 Apr 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

The Rosenberg case is a fascinating idea! Or Alger Hiss could be interesting. 

 

Al Capone could also be interesting.

 

Oh, speaking of gangsters, what about Albert Anastasia and Murder Inc.  Or would that be too gruesome?

[Kromm]

You know another issue may be that aside from any racial/diversity issues, older cases are probably far more expensive to film. I mean People vs. OJ basically just had to change a few cars, grab a few old cell phones, make sure no camera shots showed anything newer than 15 years old in L.A., and scour some closets for 90s clothes. Whereas a real period piece would require a lot more work, in terms of location scouting, warddrobe, effects, props, etc.

Not that Murphy doesn't already do that for American Horror Story, but that's a much more (deliberately) claustrophobic show, with only a few locations and not a lot of extras. The ACS seasons seem like they're typically going to be representing entire cities, and maintaining period has to be a lot tougher with that.

[Umbelina]

Umbelina, I am absolutely amazed by your post.  Bundy is one of the few cases that I obsess over and never get tired of analyzing and reading.  Very few females who were ever in Bundy's car managed to escape; he was that "efficient", for lack of better word.  Regardless, I do think there are probably more victims and potential victims out there that have either never been identified, didn't realize who they had a run in with or were never found. 

 

Are you sure about the 1971 or 1972 dates?  Bundy was in Washington then but the FBI never connected him to Utah crimes until the fall of 1974 (and he never confessed to Utah crimes prior to 1974.)  In fact, the FBI doesn't believe he started his murder spree until January of 1974 (which I disagree with; I believe he started killing many years earlier but only started abducting and killing on a regular basis in 1973/1974.) 

 

In any event, I am glad that your sister survived that horrifying event.   She was clearly an exceptional teen to think of jumping with a station wagon behind her.  I can't' even imagine. 

 

Hugs.

https://www.facebook.com/148896448643094/photos/a.231389210393817.1073741885.148896448643094/231389407060464/?type=3&theater

 

Well, since you are interested in the case, this has the entire book, The Phantom Prince, written by his girlfriend from Utah, they began seeing one another in 1969 in WA.  It says Elizabeth Kendall, but it's really Liz Kloepfer.  I ran across it tonight while looking for information about him.  She mention several trips they took to Utah  before he moved there ('69-'74), since she was raised there and her family still lived there.  The big question for me after reading that idiotic but informative book was about the FBI.  From her POV the police were inept in both Washington and Utah, and didn't connect those cases, no real mention of the FBI, yet I know my sister was questioned by the FBI.  Were they looking for something else?  Or was Liz K simply not told since she was still so "in luuuuuuuvvvvv" with him, though she suspected him of being a mass murderer for years, and called the police herself?

 

If anyone else wants to read it, it's pretty short, and this woman acts like a lovesick 14 year old even when she hits 30, it's photographed page by page at the link.  It's out of print, and rare, there is a copy for $118 listed at Amazon.  Ahem.

[Crs97]

T. Cullen Davis trial - he murdered his 12-year old stepdaughter (forced her to the basement and onto her knees before killing her) and then waited for his estranged wife to come home. Shot her and killed her boyfriend. Chased her outside and paralyzed another friend. All survivors identified him. He was acquitted. Then was tried again with a tape on which you could hear him soliciting the murdee of his wife and divorce judge. Acquitted again. At the time he was the wealthiest man ever on trial for murder.

John Hill trial and subsequent murder-Book is called Blood and Money. He was a plastic surgeon in Houston whose wealthy wife died mysteriously. He was tried for murder based on withholding medical attention. Mistrial but father-in-law had him killed before the next trial. Father-in-law was never charged.

[elzin]

In the mid-80s there was this cult in Oregon that could make for interesting tv (maybe not a full season) when they hatched a plan

 

 

infecting the salad bars of several restaurants in The Dalles (the county seat of Wasco County) with salmonella, poisoning over 750 (including several Wasco County public officials) and resulting in the hospitalization of 45 people. Known as the 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack, the incident is regarded as the largest biological warfare attack in the history of the United States.

 

Umbelina, I'm sorry to hear your stories. I'm also sorry if my bringing up Bundy upset you.

[psychoticstate]

https://www.facebook.com/148896448643094/photos/a.231389210393817.1073741885.148896448643094/231389407060464/?type=3&theater

 

Well, since you are interested in the case, this has the entire book, The Phantom Prince, written by his girlfriend from Utah, they began seeing one another in 1969 in WA.  It says Elizabeth Kendall, but it's really Liz Kloepfer.  I ran across it tonight while looking for information about him.  She mention several trips they took to Utah  before he moved there ('69-'74), since she was raised there and her family still lived there.  The big question for me after reading that idiotic but informative book was about the FBI.  From her POV the police were inept in both Washington and Utah, and didn't connect those cases, no real mention of the FBI, yet I know my sister was questioned by the FBI.  Were they looking for something else?  Or was Liz K simply not told since she was still so "in luuuuuuuvvvvv" with him, though she suspected him of being a mass murderer for years, and called the police herself?

 

If anyone else wants to read it, it's pretty short, and this woman acts like a lovesick 14 year old even when she hits 30, it's photographed page by page at the link.  It's out of print, and rare, there is a copy for $118 listed at Amazon.  Ahem.

 

Thanks for this.  I read Liz' book many years ago but couldn't tell you anything specific about it.

 

I did go to the FB page and scroll through some of the posts.  While there are some rare pics of Bundy, some of the comments are truly frightening.  Apparently there are still women out there who think he's sexy, hot, etc.  All I can think of while reading their comments is if given the opportunity, Bundy probably would have assaulted and killed them.  And done so gladly. 

[ShadowHunter]

I remember the T.Cullen Davis case. Lifetime use to air the movie about called Texas Justice. Dominick Dunne also profiled the case on his show as did American Justice. It was always amazing to me how he got off but he used his money to get a good team.

Ryan used Ramirez for a few episodes of Ahs he and other serial killers got together on Devils Night. The actor they had playing Jeffrey Dahmer was good.

Edited April 9, 2016 by ShadowHunter

[FozzyBear]

Girl 27 is the famous 1937 rape case; there's a documentary by that name that might still be on Netflix.

Thank you! I knew I had the number wrong.

T. Cullen Davis trial - he murdered his 12-year old stepdaughter (forced her to the basement and onto her knees before killing her) and then waited for his estranged wife to come home. Shot her and killed her boyfriend. Chased her outside and paralyzed another friend. All survivors identified him. He was acquitted. Then was tried again with a tape on which you could hear him soliciting the murdee of his wife and divorce judge. Acquitted again. At the time he was the wealthiest man ever on trial for murder.

John Hill trial and subsequent murder-Book is called Blood and Money. He was a plastic surgeon in Houston whose wealthy wife died mysteriously. He was tried for murder based on withholding medical attention. Mistrial but father-in-law had him killed before the next trial. Father-in-law was never charged.

I don't understand. If he was acquitted why (and how) was he re-tried?

[ShadowHunter]

Thank you! I knew I had the number wrong.

I don't understand. If he was acquitted why (and how) was he re-tried?

In the T. Cullen case the tape recording of him wanting his ex wife and divorce lawyer killed happened after the 1976 murder of his stepdaughter. The 78 arrest was considered solicitation of murder. He walked yet again.

[Crs97]

I don't understand. If he was acquitted why (and how) was he re-tried?

 

 

Davis case is two separate cases years apart:

 

First case was for the murder of his estranged wife's boyfriend.  They also covered the murder of his stepdaughter in that trial, but he wasn't formally charged.  The judge had just upped his support payments before the divorce was final, and he was gunning for his wife.  Shot her, but she survived.  She ran out to the driveway and another car drove past.  He paralyzed one of the friends who got out to help.  Racehorse Haynes was the celebrated Texas defense attorney, and he made the case all about slut-shaming the estranged wife.  Do I need to mention that Cullen had a mistress/girlfriend?  No one was outraged that a 12 year old girl just home from Bible Camp was terrorized and slaughtered by her stepfather.  No one demonized Racehorse Haynes for trashing the wife.  All of Dallas celebrated his acquittal and sneered that the wife was so horrible as to survive.

 

Second case he solicited an undercover officer to murder his ex-wife and the divorce judge who heard their case.  Audio tapes of the whole thing, including a staged photo of the judge's dead body and Cullen saying, "Good!" when he saw it.  He was acquitted again.  Racehorse to the rescue!

[Umbelina]

I agree, they will stick with diverse casts and complex social issues.  Maybe this Black Panther trial?  The New Haven Nine?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Haven_Black_Panther_trials Or one of the KKK trials, really looking at school integration and the courts, aftermath, process? An in depth look at Medgar Evers murder that only a mini series can do? 

[Kromm]

I agree, they will stick with diverse casts and complex social issues.  Maybe this Black Panther trial?  The New Haven Nine?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Haven_Black_Panther_trials 

Hmm. It may be too "vintage" for most people to identify with, but perhaps.

 

How about... Tawana Brawley? It's kind of a reverse of the Central Park Five situation. The Central Park Five would be about how racist assumptions, police lazyness and poltical expediency led to a tragedy, and the Tawana Brawley case would be about how confusing and tragic things get when punditry and press overrule evidence and reason. 

Ah wait. The biggie that just occurred to me (I'm sure someone has said it) is Bernhard Goetz aka The Subway Vigilante. Think about the angles with that one. It's huge.

 

EDIT - I just checked the topic. Wow. Nobody has said Bernhard Goetz yet. Unbelievable. I wonder if it was perhaps a much bigger story in NY than the rest of the country, but it was literally front page news in New York in the mid to late 80s... like... every single day. It has all those hallmarks of how whites and blacks perceived a situation totally differently--Goetz was hailed as a hero by the white establishment, as a monster by the black community, and the conflict tore the city into pieces. The canvas is very wide with that one too, because so many events followed--insane press, a trial, protests and demagoguery, celebrities getting involved, both trite and tragic fates down the line for various people involved, etc.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Kromm

[Epeolatrix]

One of my best used-bookstore finds was a copy of 'The Phantom Prince' for $5. Maybe being in Seattle made that more available, not sure.

Since Jeffrey Toobin's Patty Hearst book is optioned to be a movie, that's now off my list. Maybe the Elizabeth Smart case? I wonder if Ryan Murphy considers religiously-enabled crime to be social-justice-worthy.

[starri]

Matthew Shepard.  The Laramie Project was very well done, but it wasn't about the event itself, it was more about the reaction to it.

 

Judy Shepard and Fred Phelps are parts that are as compelling as Marcia Clark and Johnnie Cochran.  The only problem is that there's no real complexity to Phelps (may the man rot in his grave) as there is to Cochran.

 

The problem with going too far into the past, you run up against nothing but stories about white men.

[Avaleigh]

I think the Waco/Branch Davidians could be interesting and has a little bit of everything. Crazed but supposedly "charismatic" cult leader, multiple crimes, the raid, the shootout, lots of strong roles for actors, etc. 

 

The Jonestown massacre was tragically American at its core. Jim Jones ended up an utter fucking monster (oh God, the whole story is so depressing) but at the very beginning, the Peoples [sic] Temple was a very hopeful idealistic experiment in socialism, with an emphasis on racial equality, very much a product of the '60s. A lot of black people joined the Temple, inspired by its egalitarianism. And then of course Jones was seduced by the money and power that flowed to the head of a church and everything turned to shit. (Random fact: the massacre happened the same month as the murder of Harvey Milk and George Moscone. There was a dark cloud over San Francisco in November of '78.)

 

Did you not like Alpha Dog? I thought it was well done--so much so I can't watch it after a certain point. It's just too heartbreaking--such a spectacularly pointless murder.

 

I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for Jonestown for season three. It really does have a little bit of everything and when you realize that some nine hundred plus people died in a single evening, most of the cases were definitely murder, it's just heartbreaking and I agree that it's a story that has every reason to be told again. 

 

My comment about Alpha Dog might have been a little hasty. It wasn't that I didn't like it, it's that I thought the movie could have had a bit more depth. In fact I think the Nicholas Markowitz story would lend itself better to a ten episode series because I feel like there's a lot that they didn't cover. 

 

Oh, I absolutely agree that it was murder. Jones had armed guards standing by in case anyone refused to drink the Kool-Aid, and plenty of the victims were in fact shot. And that of course was after murdering Leo Ryan in cold blood. Yes, I've heard that audio--you can find it online, a few sites host it. It's AWFUL. That one woman, valiantly trying to turn the tide, reminding them of the children, and Jones saying "have some pride, go out with dignity." Just unbearable to listen to.

It's easily one of the saddest things I've ever heard. That woman was so brave considering how hardly any followers ever challenged Jim Jones especially not in front of the entire congregation. I don't remember her exact words but she talked about how she wasn't afraid to die. She said that she was looking around at all the children and felt that they deserved the right to live. It's really unsettling and it's extra heartbreaking when you think of how much hope, trust, and love those people had to go out to there in the first place. Jones repeatedly telling people not to cry. All of those people holding each other and being scared and miserable in their final moments after seeing their children die first. 

[bmoore4026]

Wasn't there a scare back in the 80s where a bunch of teachers and parents were accused of being Satanists and forcing kids to take part in rituals?  Would that make a good season?

[Kromm]

So if posts here represent what people WANT to see (vs. predicting what Murphy WILL do) then the consensus seems to be that most people will be tired of race-based stories by Season 3--having just sat through 2 seasons in a row of that. Is that the gist of things?

 

If that really is the motivator, another part of the question becomes what can Murphy do to distinguish his brand from other latecomers, like NBC's upcoming Law & Order: True Crime (season 1: the Menendez Brothers), or the as yet untitled CBS series (season 1: JonBenet Ramsey) . What do we think "makes" something an "American Crime Story" worthy crime? Are there specific aspects?

 

Cults seems to be a common theme in many of the suggestions. Patty Hearst wasn't overtly that, but it was in the same neighborhood. Waco and Jonestown and Rajneeshpuram and the Manson group (all suggested one or more times) of course all fit even better. So cults is it?

Edited April 10, 2016 by Kromm

[Kromm]

The Menendez brothers- I remember this being a high profile case, but remember no details (I was pretty young)

<snip>

Also yes to Lindbergh, Jon Benet, etc...

I'm circling back to commenting on this post, just because then you may see the quote attributed in that notifications board widget. I figured if you didn't know you might like to that two of your suggestions here are already set to be part of other true crime shows. The Menendezes will be Season 1 of NBC's just announced Law & Order: True Crime show.  And JonBenet will be Season 1 of a CBS equivalent true crime show who's title hasn't been announced yet (news leaked about it the very day after the L&O one). So regardless of what ACS does, you'll see these dramatized (and heck, if we're being honest, the broadcast networks might bring bigger budgets than FX--although I wonder if it's possible Fox could rethink ACS and move it to Fox proper, since unlike American Horror Story it's not inherently graphic in nature.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Kromm

[Finnegan]

Lizzie Borden would be great, but I agree that anything pre-1980s would be less likely.

I'm wondering how Katrina will play out, since it's not focused on a trial, which gave the OJ series a natural structure. Are there any good impostor/identity theft stories? That might be interesting, to see detectives put the story together.

[CeeBeeGee]

The Charles Stuart case would be a good fit for the series as well, and hasn't been done a lot.

[Kromm]

Lizzie Borden would be great, but I agree that anything pre-1980s would be less likely.

I'm wondering how Katrina will play out, since it's not focused on a trial, which gave the OJ series a natural structure. Are there any good impostor/identity theft stories? That might be interesting, to see detectives put the story together.

My gut thinks it's going to be about FEMA. They're deliberately using the phrase "Crime" loosely.

 

I think they will start, however, with the story of the levees and how those were mismanaged, then branch out into other stories of mismanagement, corruption and incompetence.

Again, this all contributes to my impression that while people here are certainly hungry for more criminal cases, and from the looks of it stuff about cults, what Ryan Murphy wants to do is gauge the entire culture/mood/events of a city with each season. At it's heart that's what the OJ season was about too, as much or more than the trial. 

[Epeolatrix]

My show desires are a combination of what things I think would be interesting to see, but also what would be fun or educational to discuss. As such, I'd like to have varied -isms from season to season, if the series is going to be developed along social justice lines.

Cults: not so much. I wanted Patty Hearst because the controversy about her perceived vs real motivations was such a contentious issue that it could make for a good short series. There's time enough to really get into her story without being superficial. Then I thought about Elizabeth Smart because it was another captive's story that ended well, but that we still don't know a lot about. Plus, the religious tones to the case are interesting and that would be just as provocative as focusing on race. It'd lack diversity, though.

I really don't want Jonestown because I don't trust him to do the story well. I was a kid when the death images first came across the news and the utter clueless flippancy that Jonestown evokes now is genuinely irritating and depressing. For me, it goes past the relative simplicity of 'notable crime story' and closer to the pit-of-the-stomach horror / sickness I get about genocides and ethnic cleansing. I'm still an obsessive in reading about it, but it's had enough cheesy dramatizations already and I'd rather not see Murphy add another. Do you really want to see Travolta as Jim Jones? (Okay, yeah, some of you might.)

Maybe he should pick from something else Dominick Dunne has already written about. <grin>

[biakbiak]

My gut thinks it's going to be about FEMA. They're deliberately using the phrase "Crime" loosely.

 

I think they will start, however, with the story of the levees and how those were mismanaged, then branch out into other stories of mismanagement, corruption and incompetence.Again, this all contributes to my impression that while people here are certainly hungry for more criminal cases, and from the looks of it stuff about cults, what Ryan Murphy wants to do is gauge the entire culture/mood/events of a city with each season. At it's heart that's what the OJ season w

Murphey has already said it will focus on five to six different people some who were at the Superdome, the hispital, people evacuated in buses, etc. and that it won't have a central focus. However, since they are just starting the writing process it could change.

[mbutterfly]

Would love a series about Trayvon's stalking and murder. Although it might be too soon.

 

I well remember the Schiavo case. Utter insanity. That could be interesting.

 

 

The Jonestown massacre was tragically American at its core. Jim Jones ended up an utter fucking monster (oh God, the whole story is so depressing) but at the very beginning, the Peoples [sic] Temple was a very hopeful idealistic experiment in socialism, with an emphasis on racial equality, very much a product of the '60s. A lot of black people joined the Temple, inspired by its egalitarianism. And then of course Jones was seduced by the money and power that flowed to the head of a church and everything turned to shit. (Random fact: the massacre happened the same month as the murder of Harvey Milk and George Moscone. There was a dark cloud over San Francisco in November of '78.)

 

Did you not like Alpha Dog? I thought it was well done--so much so I can't watch it after a certain point. It's just too heartbreaking--such a spectacularly pointless murder.

Added to that the Jones case began in very wholesome small town Indiana, then went to Indianapolis inner city and seems to have been an effective ministry there including many African Americans, and it went from there getting weirder and weirder. It could easily fill 10 episodes in such a variety of settings. 

Edited April 10, 2016 by mbutterfly

[Kromm]

Murphey has already said it will focus on five to six different people some who were at the Superdome, the hispital, people evacuated in buses, etc. and that it won't have a central focus. However, since they are just starting the writing process it could change.

Those just set the point of view. Why would that disallow it following the levees and then eventually the FEMA incompetence?  Clearly the story will be spread around, but I think the unifier would be the incompetence of authority, since it's what connects the dots on each side of the situation--the levees being one end and FEMA being the other. So no, it's not a central focus, but it's a theme, if I'm right I mean.

[Avaleigh]

My show desires are a combination of what things I think would be interesting to see, but also what would be fun or educational to discuss. As such, I'd like to have varied -isms from season to season, if the series is going to be developed along social justice lines.

Cults: not so much. I wanted Patty Hearst because the controversy about her perceived vs real motivations was such a contentious issue that it could make for a good short series. There's time enough to really get into her story without being superficial. Then I thought about Elizabeth Smart because it was another captive's story that ended well, but that we still don't know a lot about. Plus, the religious tones to the case are interesting and that would be just as provocative as focusing on race. It'd lack diversity, though.

I really don't want Jonestown because I don't trust him to do the story well. I was a kid when the death images first came across the news and the utter clueless flippancy that Jonestown evokes now is genuinely irritating and depressing. For me, it goes past the relative simplicity of 'notable crime story' and closer to the pit-of-the-stomach horror / sickness I get about genocides and ethnic cleansing. I'm still an obsessive in reading about it, but it's had enough cheesy dramatizations already and I'd rather not see Murphy add another. Do you really want to see Travolta as Jim Jones? (Okay, yeah, some of you might.)

Maybe he should pick from something else Dominick Dunne has already written about. <grin>

If we have to dig in the Ryan Murphy pool then my first thought was Wes Bentley even though he's a little young. He's right in the middle if they cover years worth of events. I don't think Dylan McDermott has the acting skills needed to play someone as disturbed as Jim Jones. Ideally they'd cast someone who isn't a regular from Ryan Murphy's other shows. 

 

So if posts here represent what people WANT to see (vs. predicting what Murphy WILL do) then the consensus seems to be that most people will be tired of race-based stories by Season 3--having just sat through 2 seasons in a row of that. Is that the gist of things?

 

If that really is the motivator, another part of the question becomes what can Murphy do to distinguish his brand from other latecomers, like NBC's upcoming Law & Order: True Crime (season 1: the Menendez Brothers), or the as yet untitled CBS series (season 1: JonBenet Ramsey) . What do we think "makes" something an "American Crime Story" worthy crime? Are there specific aspects?

 

Cults seems to be a common theme in many of the suggestions. Patty Hearst wasn't overtly that, but it was in the same neighborhood. Waco and Jonestown and Rajneeshpuram and the Manson group (all suggested one or more times) of course all fit even better. So cults is it?

There are a lot to choose from only we get into the issue of diversity with some of the cults. 

 

More thoughts on cult ideas.

 

Based on the aspects of the PvOJSb that seemed to appeal to the viewers I still think that the murder of Rulon Allred is the strongest story but I'm sure RM would think it was too obscure even though it was very high profile at the time from what I've read. This is a story too where I think they'd actually have to show the build up to the crime rather than the shooting being the opening episode. Having the audience actually see someone commit murder, go on trial for it, and be acquitted could generate a lot of discussion. Ron Goldman actually cited what happened in the civil trial for Rena Chynoweth as a precedence for why they've barely received any money from OJ. 

 

I really like the suggestion of doing something based on Scientology I'm just not sure how one would go about focusing the story. 

 

The murder of Ron and Brenda Lafferty and using the book Under the Banner of Heaven as a guide would be fascinating and they could even touch on the Elizabeth Smart case in addition to many others. I can see how it might be difficult to structure the story though and again, it probably isn't high profile enough for RM even though it's a uniquely American crime story. (IMO anyway.) 

 

The Kingston clan (The cult goes by the name The Order) is the most powerful organized crime family in Utah and there have been several trials and crimes that have exposed their lifestyle. It's absolutely nuts that we don't do more about these groups as a country considering how rampant the abuse issues are.