S04.E17: Beacon Of Hope

[arjumand]

Heheh.

 

I remember Oliver saying in Season 1 (during the flashbacks I believe) that the only book he ever read was The Odyssey.

 

Although the first Harry Potter movie came out in October 2001 so if he disappeared in 2003, he would have known about it.

 

He said the only book he read for school was the Odyssey - I never understood him to mean it's the only book he read in his life!

 

And as someone else has said, the Queen's Gambit went down in 2007, which is when the last HP book came out. The first Harry Potter book came out in 1997, when Oliver was 12 - why wouldn't he have read it then, if only to appease angry English teachers who are trying to get their students to read SOMETHING, ANYTHING written in the English language! Sorry, got a little rant on you.

 

This episode - eh. While I enjoyed it superficially, I was a little wary of hidden messages.

Felicity's out of the lair - we have a well choreographed sparring scene for what seems like the first time in ages.

Laurel tells Oliver it's his fault that Felicity left - offers no hope that he can ever get her back.

Felicity has no problem with the fact that she seems to have been replaced - insists that she's never coming back.

Two people (maybe more) give that dumbass Beacon of Hope line - hey guys, shouldn't it be BEEEEEECON of Hope? Guys? . . . . I'll show myself out.

 

Also, dear Felicity, does it have to be either/or? Either BEACON OF HOPINESSSS or being Overwatch? Why not both? Ugh.

[bijoux]

Oh that makes more sense. I'll take that.

Sidebar: she's not a terribly compelling villain by any means but did they really have to put the Bug Eyed Bandit in a coma? That seemed a bit much to me.

 

It means she can come back. However, she's just not an interesting villain and I don't really want her to.

 

Heheh.

 

I remember Oliver saying in Season 1 (during the flashbacks I believe) that the only book he ever read was The Odyssey.

 

Although the first Harry Potter movie came out in October 2001 so if he disappeared in 2003, he would have known about it.

Actually, I think he said that was the only book he read for his college classes.

[lemotomato]

I still keep seeing the title of this thread as "Bacon of Hope"

[bethy]

Mmm. Bacon.

[apinknightmare]

I missed this the first go-round, but I loved it when Curtis flew his hacked bee into the janitor's closet. Felicity goes, "Curtis?" And Donna replies with, "How do you know that bee's name?" 

[way2interested]

I missed this the first go-round, but I loved it when Curtis flew his hacked bee into the janitor's closet. Felicity goes, "Curtis?" And Donna replies with, "How do you know that bee's name?" 

I honestly missed a bunch of jokes and things at first viewing. Like, "inside joke," "Just try to think happy thoughts," Felicity's reaction at Oliver being stung, "I won't tell anyone that you screamed," "taller dude Felicity." This was like the first time I had to watch again immediately because I just knew I was missing a bunch of stuff from the quick dialogue. It's not a complaint, but just a point since I haven't had to do that in a very long time. 

[Menrva]

I watched this one with my kids and we thought it was ok. Nothing great, though there were some good moments here and there. My biggest issue was the bees because I'm afraid of them. When I was 7 I accidentally stepped on a yellow jacket nest and got stung on over 70% of my body. Thankfully I'm not allergic. I know wasps and bees are not the same, but I still freak out when I see them. So I completely understood Curtis and Lance's panic at the robot bee.

I liked Felicity's interactions with her mom and Thea. I liked the fight at the beginning. The Bee Guy looked too much like Yellowjacket from Ant-Man. I wondered where Bree got her villain outfit from. Is there a tailor for bad guys? Or maybe her robot bees made it for her like some twisted Disney princess movie?

 

Laurel didn't annoy the crap out of me for once, though her canary cry is so, so bad. My kids kept doing the pose and asking me, "Hey, mom, guess who I am?" And cracking themselves up. I actually fast forwarded the flashback and any DD scene. Both are boring to me now.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Menrva

[Scribbles]

There has been a great deal of discussion about Oliver reading / or not reading.  The Oliver they have shown us is not lacking intellectual ability, he was like many teens and college aged kids who took academic pursuits less than seriously.  They took pains in show to show him as a capable and quick study with multiple languages, tech skills and so forth.  Yes, we often say Oliver acts in stupid/dumb ways, but that is shorthand in general to try to explain less than wise decisions colored with all sorts of emotional garbage.  Oliver/GA is not a dumby, he is actually didactic with keen logistical skills, situational awareness and a quick study in a large assortment of arenas.  Rant over for me.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Everyone watch the spoilers, please.

[kismet]

Here are my thoughts without reading any posts...

 

417 left me with some really odd thoughts... I thought that I would resolve them.... but here is is 25+hrs later and they still linger.

 

I've decided I am mad at FS. I am mad that she encouraged OQ to come back and be a hero and then has abandoned him to pursue her dream... He was living his dream in Ivy Town and now he is stuck in SC essentially in a life he had decided was not the best fit for him at the moment. He deserved to be dumped, but its a pretty shitty thing to leave the team, especially without providing them a replacement. I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

 

If they had stayed in Ivy Town, none of this probably would have happened. But then I feel kinda awkward because I realized that I would prefer for OQ to live a peaceful life far from being a superhero, which makes me kinda mad at the writers for somehow encouraging me to think about a world with a Happy OQ but no Arrow. I love the Arrow, I never wanted or thought he should quit, but part of me wants it now. So yeah that's quite the predicament. If they knew they were gonna break up O/F the way they did, I really wish they hadn't hit home how happy he was to be in Ivy Town, how reluctant he was to face the darkness again and had made him more eager to be in the field again.

 

Also, why did they wait so many seasons to finally write LL in a way that is enjoyable and semi-useful manner?

I'm actually going to miss her a little once she is gone. It sorta makes me sad that they are killing her, when at this point I feel like a plane ticket away from SC would be enough for me.

Seriously, baffling. 

 

I don't know, as enjoyable as the episode was with all of its puns and quippy lines, it left me with a really weird aftertaste.

 

On the plus side, they finally gave some acknowledgement to actual spinal cord injuries & research. I hope the Reeves foundation gets a bump in support. Part of me will forever be curious if the shout-out was self-driven or if they experienced some backlash/pressure from outside sources to do more than just brush over the severity of SCI because it made a really cool plot. File that in the my questions I want to ask MG under truth serum one of these days.

[wonderwall]

I've decided I am mad at FS. I am mad that she encouraged OQ to come back and be a hero and then has abandoned him to pursue her dream... He was living his dream in Ivy Town and now he is stuck in SC essentially in a life he had decided was not the best fit for him at the moment. He deserved to be dumped, but its a pretty shitty thing to leave the team, especially without providing them a replacement. I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

 

If they had stayed in Ivy Town, none of this probably would have happened. But then I feel kinda awkward because I realized that I would prefer for OQ to live a peaceful life far from being a superhero, which makes me kinda mad at the writers for somehow encouraging me to think about a world with a Happy OQ but no Arrow. I love the Arrow, I never wanted or thought he should quit, but part of me wants it now. So yeah that's quite the predicament. If they knew they were gonna break up O/F the way they did, I really wish they hadn't hit home how happy he was to be in Ivy Town, how reluctant he was to face the darkness again and had made him more eager to be in the field again.

 

So you're mad at Felicity for wanting to come back to Starling... But you wouldn't be mad at Oliver for wanting to stay in Ivy Town --thereby denying Felicity to fulfill her sense of purpose -- even though Felicity wanted to come back? Felicity gave Oliver a choice in episode 1, she was ready to go back to Ivy Town but Oliver CHOSE to stay in Starling because that's where the people he loves live and Thea at the time needed him. 

 

In the end they would've returned to Starling anyways considering Felicity is the CEO of Palmer Tech. Yes, they were happy in Ivy Town, but Oliver and Felicity BOTH have responsibilities in Starling. 

[dtissagirl]

I've decided I am mad at FS. I am mad that she encouraged OQ to come back and be a hero and then has abandoned him to pursue her dream... He was living his dream in Ivy Town and now he is stuck in SC essentially in a life he had decided was not the best fit for him at the moment. He deserved to be dumped, but its a pretty shitty thing to leave the team, especially without providing them a replacement. I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

Oh W O W. So Felicity should have stayed with the team, feeling miserable and hurting, because at least then Oliver's misery would have company? And why is Oliver's happiness more important than Felicity's? She wasn't fulfilled in Ivy Town. She wanted more from life than that. Why is Oliver's dream life more important than Felicity's?

[Cthulhudrew]

Just got done watching this episode and...

 

WTF????

[wonderwall]

Just got done watching this episode and...

 

WTF????

 

LOL It's not an episode for everyone :p It had a lot of flaws, but I overlooked them because I was in such dire need of a lighter tone

[Scribbles]

Just got done watching this episode and...

 

WTF????

 

Liked your post for the idea of fill in the blank regarding what this poster is articulating.  Guessing games can be fun. I hope you will elaborate.

[Password]

Oliver was feeling sorry for himself when he said he wanted to stay in Ivy Town. If there's one thing Laurel did well in her "talks" it's pointing out to Oliver that Felicity left because of HIS stupidity, not the Green Arrow's. He can't blame this vigilante life for all his problems when they have absolutely nothing to DO with his problems.

He can go back to Ivy Town if he wants. No one stopping him, certainly not Felicity.

[AudienceofOne]

Oh W O W. So Felicity should have stayed with the team, feeling miserable and hurting, because at least then Oliver's misery would have company? And why is Oliver's happiness more important than Felicity's? She wasn't fulfilled in Ivy Town. She wanted more from life than that. Why is Oliver's dream life more important than Felicity's?

 

In fact, one of the things I liked about this episode was that Oliver went there a little. He was implying - he's done this before - that if only they'd stayed in the suburbs things would have been fine. That somehow the situation he's in with Felicity is due to the circumstances they're in. And I think there is a kneejerk instinct here to blame Felicity for dragging him back when he didn't want to go, only for the situation to break them up.

 

Except - it wasn't the situation at all. As Laurel pointed out (did I just type that?), the problem was him. Is him. Remains him. His need to lie and hide things is pathological. And that pathology is the problem. And that pathology would still be a problem in the suburbs. I highly doubt he would have been happy with a slow cooker in the suburbs alone once Felicity inevitably walked out for precisely the same reason. So he would still be in this situation - just with better food.

[way2interested]

I've decided I am mad at FS. I am mad that she encouraged OQ to come back and be a hero and then has abandoned him to pursue her dream... He was living his dream in Ivy Town and now he is stuck in SC essentially in a life he had decided was not the best fit for him at the moment. He deserved to be dumped, but its a pretty shitty thing to leave the team, especially without providing them a replacement. I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

 

If they had stayed in Ivy Town, none of this probably would have happened. But then I feel kinda awkward because I realized that I would prefer for OQ to live a peaceful life far from being a superhero, which makes me kinda mad at the writers for somehow encouraging me to think about a world with a Happy OQ but no Arrow. I love the Arrow, I never wanted or thought he should quit, but part of me wants it now. So yeah that's quite the predicament. If they knew they were gonna break up O/F the way they did, I really wish they hadn't hit home how happy he was to be in Ivy Town, how reluctant he was to face the darkness again and had made him more eager to be in the field again.

 

To be fair, Oliver was happy living a peaceful and happy life with Felicity. Felicity wasn't happy with that life because she wasn't helping anyone (except when she was helping the team, already supporting her theory that they could have it all, since she was kind of already doing it). Oliver wouldn't be able to be truly happy in Ivy Town unless Felicity was happy being with him as well, which is one of the reasons they came back in the first place. Then, they were doing it all and were happy and ridiculously in love with each other even explicitly stated in 408. From 409 on, the plot was pushing against their happy ending and testing their relationship to last for that happy ending of having it all. From Felicity's pov given Oliver's poor decisions, it can't, so now they are stuck in this middle ground.

 

Oliver is stuck in Star City now because he feels that he is lost to the darkness since he couldn't save his relationship. From 417, now he's finding his own new purpose of being a beacon of hope to the city, since his dream happy ending "always" with Felicity is seemingly impossible. He's not really stuck though, since now he's choosing to be a symbol instead of moping from the break-up.

 

Likewise, Felicity is trying to make a renewed purpose for herself. She isn't necessarily living her dream, since her dream was to be with Oliver and save the city, but she's just trying to make the best of her new situation given her world has been shaken. She did leave the team, which I think was an extreme reaction, but she did figure out loud that the team really didn't need her (even though the rationalizing there as well was really poor), so in her mind she didn't really leave the team empty-handed.

[tangerine95]

I feel bad for both of them but Oliver brought this on himself.He lied and made the choice to propose and push up the wedding while lying, there was nothing else that was going to come from that but a break up.

I feel bad that Felicity in addition to losing the man she loved and her relationship falling apart because of his lie, also feels so hurt that she can't stand to be on the team with him even though she loved that and it gave her purpose. I'm sure she didn't convince Oliver to stay in Starling and expect him to hide a kid and exclude her from important life changing decisions. When she told him they could stay and make their relationship work she was thinking together as a team that is totally open and honest with eachother and Oliver is the one who screwed that up.

[AyChihuahua]

They're not in this situation bc Felicity somehow forced him to return. They're in this situation BECAUSE OLIVER LIED. That is the cause of BOTH their current misery. How Felicity gets blamed for that is so utterly beyond me it makes me feel like a different species. 

 

They could have had it all, in fact they did have it all, until OLIVER threw it all away. He is 100% experiencing the consequences of HIS OWN actions.

[dtissagirl]

I've sort of convinced myself that Oliver sad panda-ing is legit disrupting story comprehension. Like, seriously, the kicked puppy face has become a narrative hindrance.

[GirlvsTV]

Also, no one is forcing Oliver to be the Green Arrow. If the vigilante life is too painful without Felicity, he could certainly pack it in and move back to Ivy Town with his slow cooker.

Oliver CHOSE to return to Star City with Felicity - who even offered to go back to Ivy Town if that was what he wanted.

And then later Oliver chose to be a big fat liar and secret keeper so, here we are.

[Scribbles]

I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

 

 

I gave your post a like because it took courage to write and because it reflects the reasons this show can be great at dealing with conflicting feelings about what we see.  At the simple level, we love Oliver and want him to win, but he really has been a killer who operated beyond the bounds of law.  We should be drawn in to struggle with wanting Felicity to be strong and self determining, but we should also feel the tug of wanting our heroes to be happy and together.  For the moment we are being shown the extreme of Felicity's retreat,   The story is not over yet, there is more to come.  I don't think we have been shown what is really going on for Felicity and the writers have left us searching with Oliver for answers to her choices.  She is contradicting herself when it comes to leaving the team and the void of what we are shown about her thinking/feeling speaks loudly to there be more to be told.

[kismet]

Harry Potter came out in 1998 in the us and they were up to the fifth movie before Oliver was shipwrecked. So I don't see how they thought he wouldn't know about Voldemort and how he didn't know about the movies.

Well he could have been really drunk for most of the summers of the movie releases. Plus he was just out of the target age that would have read the books on first go around, before they became a phenomenon. He would have been in high school & college for most of the books, so I can't imagine him rushing to the bookstore to read them. However, I could see them reading them every now and then for various reasons from hitting on girls or just the fact that they are amazing books. He did read the Odyssey, so its possible he does read books when he wants to or likes them.

 

But I vaguely remember him reminiscing about reading the books to Thea, however perhaps that was a memory from a fan fic. But I feel like he mentioned something during his seasons with Akio last season.

[dtissagirl]

What I find funny is people seem to forget that Oliver choosing to keep his kid a secret had the unintended consequence of fucking up not just his life, and Felicity's -- but also the kid's life who had to uproot and go away from everything he knew, and even the lives of people like Alex, who doesn't even know he lost his job because of Oliver's dumbass choices, and who now might have to go to work for the wife of the king of darkness.

 

So, you know. I want Oliver to go back to the perfect boyfriend Oliver of 401-407 ASAP, because he was the greatest ever and my fave, but he caused all of this.

[kismet]

So you're mad at Felicity for wanting to come back to Starling... But you wouldn't be mad at Oliver for wanting to stay in Ivy Town --thereby denying Felicity to fulfill her sense of purpose -- even though Felicity wanted to come back? Felicity gave Oliver a choice in episode 1, she was ready to go back to Ivy Town but Oliver CHOSE to stay in Starling because that's where the people he loves live and Thea at the time needed him. 

 

In the end they would've returned to Starling anyways considering Felicity is the CEO of Palmer Tech. Yes, they were happy in Ivy Town, but Oliver and Felicity BOTH have responsibilities in Starling. 

Well she could have done her job from Ivy Town or commuted with the company jet. The main reason she wanted to move back was because of Team Arrow, it was not to save Palmer Tech. That came afterwards. And she never wanted to be CEO, that just fell into her lap, this whole new need to diversify the company is plot convenient. And yes they had the conversation and decided to stay as a couple. But I guess I'm just a little frustrated that they moved back if they could have found happiness some other place. They had responsibilities, but not really because PT could have found a new CEO and TArrowless would have eventually found a way to take down DD. OQ can choose to save SC, but it is not his responsibility if he chooses to move on, he has repaired the damage his family has done, mission accomplished.

 

However, after reading the thread, perhaps my anger is more at the fact that I don't understand the logic of why she left as it was explained in 417. I understood & respected her decision in 416, but the writers managed to make it too convoluted this ep. I was fine with her taking a break because it was too painful to be in the lair. But her saying that she does not want to be part of vigilanting to help people does not correlate with what her character has been for a few seasons. It's just weird that the writers chose to highlight the fact that it was so easy for her to quit when it's mainly because of her that they are back in SC. Which they also highlighted in this episode. It was just a weird choice by the writers.

[kismet]

Oh W O W. So Felicity should have stayed with the team, feeling miserable and hurting, because at least then Oliver's misery would have company? And why is Oliver's happiness more important than Felicity's? She wasn't fulfilled in Ivy Town. She wanted more from life than that. Why is Oliver's dream life more important than Felicity's?

I never said her dream or his happiness was more important. Both of their dreams & happiness are important, I just think the writers are making some interesting choices about how they describe OQ & FS choices. I just feel like she left the team a little high and dry, when she was the one that brought them back to the team. And she lied to OQ and withheld the fact that she was unfulfilled in Ivy Town. Yes his lie & withholding was far more severe which is why he deserved to be dumped and she was right to walk away. But if you boil it down they both lied & withheld truths to maintain their relationship because they seemed to think it was best for the relationship at the time until they could figure out another plan. Both of them should have been more honest with each other. So perhaps they just need to get on the same page which they probably will be on conveniently by the end of the season.

[arjumand]

 

However, after reading the thread, perhaps my anger is more at the fact that I don't understand the logic of why she left as it was explained in 417. I understood & respected her decision in 416, but the writers managed to make it too convoluted this ep. I was fine with her taking a break because it was too painful to be in the lair. But her saying that she does not want to be part of vigilanting to help people does not correlate with what her character has been for a few seasons. It's just weird that the writers chose to highlight the fact that it was so easy for her to quit when it's mainly because of her that they are back in SC. Which they also highlighted in this episode. It was just a weird choice by the writers.

 

I agree with this - I'd like to try and justify it somehow by her being in denial and bla bla bla, but the fact is, it's a stupid idea by the writers. They need her to be out of vigilanting for the next few episodes, and so they come up with this bullshit idea - this season hasn't been lacking in them. See, I would have thought that seeing someone else in her place would have triggered the whole: "You think you can replace me that quickly? HELL NO!" reaction. So we have to have more contrivance, more bullshit.

 

I'm not even bothering to be angry at the characters anymore, because this is just the writers twisting the characters to fit their plot - I'm at the point of sighing, rolling my eyes, and enjoying what I can. No, not the bee puns.

[BkWurm1]

I love that Donna, of all people, finally realizes how stupid it is to keep wearing high heels while running from the bad guys. Flats aren't as cute but they will let you actually run like hell!

 

One of the best delivered lines in the episode.  Sometimes truth just rings out.

 

 

 

I'm actually legit impressed they managed to do 85 episodes without going full bottle before. I come from sci-fi fandoms that had to do their first bottle ep by late S1.

 

A lot of my favorite episode end up being bottle episodes since it usually focuses on relationships and we get good moments and conversation. 

 

This episode - eh. While I enjoyed it superficially, I was a little wary of hidden messages.

Felicity's out of the lair - we have a well choreographed sparring scene for what seems like the first time in ages.

Laurel tells Oliver it's his fault that Felicity left - offers no hope that he can ever get her back.

Felicity has no problem with the fact that she seems to have been replaced - insists that she's never coming back.

Two people (maybe more) give that dumbass Beacon of Hope line - hey guys, shouldn't it be BEEEEEECON of Hope? Guys? . . . . I'll show myself out.

 

Also, dear Felicity, does it have to be either/or? Either BEACON OF HOPINESSSS or being Overwatch? Why not both? Ugh.

This.  I realized why the episode left me confused since I know there were a lot of parts I thought were great but I still ended it feeling highly unsatisfied.  The above list was certainly a bit part of it.  I mistakenly thought the beacon of hope was going to be for me as someone that does not enjoy the team split up and Felicity thinking there is no fixing their relationship ever and I hate that Curtis ends up being just what everyone said he was going to be, the one they bring in to replace Felicity (temporarily or not)  I ended it so very disappointed that if I took the episode on its own merit minus way too much experience watching TV, I would think Olicity was over and I'm still not convinced that Felicity will return full time any time soon, maybe not ever and even if they blend her in to the episode with other connected storylines, I will never be happy until she's back regularly involved. 

 

There's all kinds of logic for why playing tech advisor for Team Arrow is below her paygrade (She has to be crazy busy as CEO) but it would ruin Arrow for me if she's not 100 percent back on the team.  This episode did not change my certainty that one day Oliver and Felicity would reunite but yeah, I'm very wary about her position on the team.  Part of that comes from concern about how the show runners have segregated the cast, typically assigning only certain characters interacting with a limited number of characters. (Proof in point this being the first meaningful interaction Felicity and Thea had all year)  In the wake of some claiming Felicity is everywhere, I could imagine them limiting her presence (though likely not her screen time) by confining her to only part of the show aka keeping her out of the lair.  That's my fear.   

 

 

Well she could have done her job from Ivy Town or commuted with the company jet. The main reason she wanted to move back was because of Team Arrow, it was not to save Palmer Tech. That came afterwards. And she never wanted to be CEO, that just fell into her lap, this whole new need to diversify the company is plot convenient. And yes they had the conversation and decided to stay as a couple. But I guess I'm just a little frustrated that they moved back if they could have found happiness some other place. They had responsibilities, but not really because PT could have found a new CEO and TArrowless would have eventually found a way to take down DD. OQ can choose to save SC, but it is not his responsibility if he chooses to move on, he has repaired the damage his family has done, mission accomplished.

 

However, after reading the thread, perhaps my anger is more at the fact that I don't understand the logic of why she left as it was explained in 417. I understood & respected her decision in 416, but the writers managed to make it too convoluted this ep. I was fine with her taking a break because it was too painful to be in the lair. But her saying that she does not want to be part of vigilanting to help people does not correlate with what her character has been for a few seasons. It's just weird that the writers chose to highlight the fact that it was so easy for her to quit when it's mainly because of her that they are back in SC. Which they also highlighted in this episode. It was just a weird choice by the writers.

And yet, in the end, even living in Ivy Town, if Oliver had found out about his son, we have no reason to believe he'd have reacted any different.  And BM was way to calm when she set down her requirements.  She IMO had thought about this before.  She'd have demanded the same promise.  Oliver as far as I can tell would have made the same choice only it's less likely the truth would have come out so soon which means Oliver and Felicity could have been married for years before she walked out.  The betrayal is that same. 

 

I am sympathetic to Oliver looking back to his simple life in Ivy Town and him thinking if only, but the team needed his help.  Even if they'd gone home the first time, they'd have been back when something terrible happened.  The bubble they were living in was destined to burst no matter what.  Just imagine what would have happened had they not returned.  Imagine who might have died.   Thea at the very least would have been a murderer since no one was even concerned about her behavior.  Oliver is idealizing a life that was not meant to be, not without Oliver cutting off all feeling toward his sister and friends.  I don't think Oliver could have lived with himself if he stayed puttering with crock pots while his friends died.   

[kismet]

I gave your post a like because it took courage to write and because it reflects the reasons this show can be great at dealing with conflicting feelings about what we see.  At the simple level, we love Oliver and want him to win, but he really has been a killer who operated beyond the bounds of law.  We should be drawn in to struggle with wanting Felicity to be strong and self determining, but we should also feel the tug of wanting our heroes to be happy and together.  For the moment we are being shown the extreme of Felicity's retreat,   The story is not over yet, there is more to come.  I don't think we have been shown what is really going on for Felicity and the writers have left us searching with Oliver for answers to her choices.  She is contradicting herself when it comes to leaving the team and the void of what we are shown about her thinking/feeling speaks loudly to there be more to be told.

Thanks! It was hard to write. I think this show is creating some conflicting reactions & feelings. I understand and agree that OQ got himself into this situation through his own actions and choices. I can be mad at FS, but I certainly do not blame her for the break-up. But I also believe that if he had stayed in Ivy Town or anywhere but SC, he would have made different choices because he was a different man outside of SC. He hasn't been able to reconcile the man he is away from SC with the man he thinks he has to be in SC, probably because he hasn't fully accepted that he can be a good man in SC, he still fighting off the darkness. Sometimes where you are makes all the difference in your headspace. I hope we do get more FS POV, but I feel like the writers will just skip over it like they did last season.

[Password]

And that pathology would still be a problem in the suburbs.

That's an interesting thought. Would baby mama still give Oliver that ultimatum if they were living in Ivy Town?

Er yes, she's basic like that.

[looptab]

I think the fact that they repeated in this episode that Felicity was the one who wanted to come back, while having her state that she is tired of it and doesn't regret leaving the team, has some significance.

I don't know what, precisely, haha, but I think it does.

Edited April 1, 2016 by looptab

[Password]

I feel like the writers over compensated on why Felicity left the team. Maybe because they really want us to think it'll be permanent? Is it permanent? It would be bold, but stupid. They should've left it at she can't work with Oliver after their break up and wanted to continue helping people in a similar position she was in i.e. a wheelchair.

[bijoux]

The tic back in full force.

 

[BkWurm1]

But if you boil it down they both lied & withheld truths to maintain their relationship because they seemed to think it was best for the relationship at the time until they could figure out another plan. Both of them should have been more honest with each other. So perhaps they just need to get on the same page which they probably will be on conveniently by the end of the season.

 

I think that analogy only works if you think Felicity hid what she was doing to help the team from Oliver because she thought it would damage her relationship if she did it out in the open and I never got that impression.

 

  I think she kept quiet because she thought she was being considerate since Oliver wanted to put it all behind him.  I don't think she ever thought he'd be upset about what she was doing.  She seemed to me to keep it from him because he'd made his choice and she wanted him to be able to not get sucked in to something that she could do without dangling a return to that life in his face.  She was doing it all from such a distance that the danger that came with that life seemed to be IMO still left behind. She/they were still removed from that darkness.  But while she could help the team and still maintain that distance, Oliver knowing what she was doing would mean Oliver would face temptation to step in and help and his kind of help only came up close and personal, in the thick of things. 

 

Felicity realized she needed a purpose in her life and reached out for it, but she shielded Oliver from having to deal with it.  There's still problems with her keeping parts of her life and her feelings from him (real issues) but Oliver once he promised not to tell anyone, was keeping his secrets to keep his relationship intact because he knew Felicity would be furious to know he withheld information about a secret son.  She'd be beyond hurt that he'd chosen honestly with the woman that had lied to him for ten years rather than the one he wanted to make a life with.  Once Oliver promised BM her ultimatum, he kept the secret to protect his relationship.  I think Felicity kept her activities quiet to give Oliver space to heal, not because she ever thought Oliver would insist she stop.  So  I don't think the motivations match up.    

[statsgirl]

Oliver wouldn't have known about BM and William if they had stayed in Ivy Town. Ignorance would have been bliss because there never would have been a BM problem.

Sidebar: she's not a terribly compelling villain by any means but did they really have to put the Bug Eyed Bandit in a coma? That seemed a bit much to me.

This is their SOP when they don't know if they want to have a VotW back or not. Remember the Count?

Although how can she be sick because of their venom?  They're electronic bees.

 

And as someone else has said, the Queen's Gambit went down in 2007, which is when the last HP book came out. The first Harry Potter book came out in 1997, when Oliver was 12 - why wouldn't he have read it then, if only to appease angry English teachers who are trying to get their students to read SOMETHING, ANYTHING written in the English language! Sorry, got a little rant on you.

LOL, that reminded me of when my brother was 12 and my parents were horrified that he was reading science fictions books. His English teacher tried to make them see that he was reading something.

 

I don't know why but it just doesn't feel right that she gets to live her dreams and he is a prisoner in a life he did not want. I have experience being a prisoner in my own life and it is not fun.

 

If they had stayed in Ivy Town, none of this probably would have happened. But then I feel kinda awkward because I realized that I would prefer for OQ to live a peaceful life far from being a superhero, which makes me kinda mad at the writers for somehow encouraging me to think about a world with a Happy OQ but no Arrow. I love the Arrow, I never wanted or thought he should quit, but part of me wants it now. So yeah that's quite the predicament. If they knew they were gonna break up O/F the way they did, I really wish they hadn't hit home how happy he was to be in Ivy Town, how reluctant he was to face the darkness again and had made him more eager to be in the field again.

I don't think Felicity is living her dream.  Her dream was the first part of this season, living with, loving and being loved by the man of her dreams, part of a family she has made for herself after being alone with just her mother for so long, and doing good, both as part of Team Arrow and running Palmer Tech.  What she has now is what she's trying to cobble together after Oliver destroyed her dreams.

 

Whether you think that Oliver would have been happy longterm in Ivy Town (I don't, it was a healing process he needed but someone as smart and driven as Oliver would have gone crazy after a while), Felicity wasn't. She hid it, somewhat badly over brunch, and she worked with Team Arrow behind Oliver's back.*  Felicity's unhappiness would have destroyed their relationship after a while.

 

What kind of a relationship would it have been in Ivy Town if she felt she had to hide doing the things that made her feel happy (whether it was for the sake of the relationship of for Oliver himself)?

 

In this episode, Felicity said she was tired of the fighting and violence.  Maybe it's just a convenient excuse but Felicity was always against the Hood's violence except in extreme circumstances.  As soon as she signed on, she left the team because Oliver was going to hurt a single dad.  She stayed because she came to appreciate that they were doing good but Oliver's lie and the realization that he's never going to change, I can see the opportunity to do a large amount of good in one fell swoop (develop the chip for cheaper so thousands of people could walk again) would be very tempting.

Edited April 1, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

Is that lacy sweater becoming Felicity's field outfit? She wore it during the rescue mission in 4x06 and in this episode. If I see her in it again this season, I'll be sorely disappointed if she doesn't end up swinging from great heights and/or facing off a maniac.

[Password]

 

 if I took the episode on its own merit minus way too much experience watching TV, I would think Olicity was over and I'm still not convinced that Felicity will return full time any time soon, maybe not ever and even if they blend her in to the episode with other connected storylines, I will never be happy until she's back regularly involved.

 

For an episode entitled "Beacon of Hope" it seemed fairly hopeLESS for the reasons you listed. 

 

I totally agree that if I wasn't a seasoned Arrow watcher I'd think Oliver and Felicity were completely done. Felicity wants nothing to do with him or TA, she's doing her own thing and it wouldn't surprise me if she decided she wanted to move to a different city (like some fanfics actually do).

[Midnight Lullaby]

I agree that the writers messed up Felicity's motivation to leave the team that was instead very understandable in 4x16, but even if they have stayed in Ivy Town I doubt anything would have changed.

They could have gone to CC to visit Barry for whatever reason, Oliver would have found out about his kid, BM would have told him to keep him a secret, he would have done it and sooner or later the secret would have come out and Felicity would have felt Oliver didn't see her as a true partner, that he was always going to keep important life decisions from her and left him. There wouldn't have been the part where Oliver sent the kid away because he is the GA, but they could have achieved the same result with another motivation. At that point they would have been miserable in Ivy Town and not miserable in SC but I don't think that makes any difference.

The problem is Oliver's issue with trusting and relying on people and just because while they were happy in Ivy Town he wasn't being tested it doesn't mean the problem didn't exist, they were just ignoring it. It was only a matter of time so he and we can blame the circumstances but in reality sooner or later that problem would have come out because it exists and Oliver has never dealt with it before.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[Password]

I wonder who will bite the bullet and ask for that picture on Felicity's desk...?

[bijoux]

Do you mean ask Guggenheim to release it? I'm reasonably sure I've seen people on Twitter asking him for it.

[Guest]

The tic back in full force.

 

 

I'm too distracted by Oliver in a new black hoodie. He looks gooooooood.

 

Also I wonder if we'll ever get a scene of Felicity wearing one of his hoodies. I mean, if I'm apparently being pandered to and controlling how the show is written, I expect this to happen.

 

GET TO IT, MINIONS, I MEAN, MG.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Guest

[way2interested]

Do you mean ask Guggenheim to release it? I'm reasonably sure I've seen people on Twitter asking him for it.

I am honestly surprised that there are still a bunch of photos that we haven't seen. Like, I'm still pretty sure that their fridge in 401 had about 2 photos that weren't shown by MG either. It's a similar looking one, but I honestly like the version in this episode more than the released one.

[dtissagirl]

It really all boils down to the fact that they never take the time to expand Felicity's pov. She got mowed down by machine guns and was left paralyzed, and had barely time to adapt to that new reality when she was cured. I think the most obvious reaction someone would have in all of that is to get as far away from violence as possible.

But they don't explore any of that in the writing, so Felicity becomes a cypher.

[Guest]

Yeah, someone wrote in one of the episode reviews that it's not surprising that Felicity might have changed her outlook since 401 because she was brutally shot and paralyzed, and I have to admit I never actually thought about that because they haven't shown that, as usual. If that's where they were going with this I would have appreciated some hints that Felicity was tired of things after her life-changing injury but there wasn't. Aside from her one episode doubts and hallucinations, she was all systems go back to normal. 

 

It's really unfair we have to fanwank Felicity's motivations. Ugh.

[tv echo]

Oliver tends to idealize the past sometimes when the present gets too dark.  Oliver looking back at his happy life in Ivy Town is just the latest example.  Remember Oliver on the island staring longingly at the photo of Laurel - the girlfriend he cheated on when he went on the boat trip with her sister?  I have no doubt that after awhile even he would've gotten bored with that quiet Ivy Town lifestyle.

 

Felicity is definitely not living her dream - which was to be both with Oliver and a part of Team Green Arrow.  She had to leave the team because it was too painful to spend night after night with Oliver and not be with Oliver.  As others have said above, she's making the best of her current situation.

 

Right now, neither Oliver or Felicity are living their dreams - and they won't be unless and until they reunite and start fighting against the bad together.

Edited April 1, 2016 by tv echo

[Scribbles]

It really all boils down to the fact that they never take the time to expand Felicity's pov. She got mowed down by machine guns and was left paralyzed, and had barely time to adapt to that new reality when she was cured. I think the most obvious reaction someone would have in all of that is to get as far away from violence as possible.

But they don't explore any of that in the writing, so Felicity becomes a cypher.

Couldn't the lack of it be telling?  The idea of Felicity being scared since being shot has run just beneath the surface, but she is not fessing up to it.  It would not be hard to presume a lot of heart and head whopping fears would follow being shot while driving down the boulevard after becoming a fiancé.  Fears....of self dying/injured, fears of Oliver dying/injured....she has loads of potential to be afraid of losing what she just got in life.  Some emotions act as logic defying parasites eating away at even the soundest and rightest arguments.  They have made a point several times to show us Felicity just wont come clean with feelings/thoughts/fears and the annoyance that they are not showing her POV enough speaks to that.

[BkWurm1]

Couldn't the lack of it be telling?  The idea of Felicity being scared since being shot has run just beneath the surface, but she is not fessing up to it.  It would not be hard to presume a lot of heart and head whopping fears would follow being shot while driving down the boulevard after becoming a fiancé.  Fears....of self dying/injured, fears of Oliver dying/injured....she has loads of potential to be afraid of losing what she just got in life.  Some emotions act as logic defying parasites eating away at even the soundest and rightest arguments.  They have made a point several times to show us Felicity just wont come clean with feelings/thoughts/fears and the annoyance that they are not showing her POV enough speaks to that.

Yup, this.  They did the same thing last year, denying her a PoV until they use it as a reveal and a big moment that changes things.  We couldn't get an I love you out of her for 20 episodes.  Her mom tells the audience that  she has to sometime force out Felicity's emotions and then the subject was immediately changed.  Those feelings are still encased in their protective shell. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Scribbles]

Yup, this.  They did the same thing last year, denying her a PoV until they use it as a reveal and a big moment that changes things.  We couldn't get an I love you out of her for 20 episodes.  Her mom tells the audience that  she has to sometime force out Felicity's emotions and then the subject was immediately changed.  Those feelings are still encased in their protective shell. 

I really think the big lesson to both Oliver and Felicity is going to be that they are safer and better together in love, life, work and play.  Oliver acted out of fear in lying to Felicity, fear that Samantha would let him see his son and/or fear that everyone would die in a catastrophe if he told the truth.  Felicity has to have more fear after being shot and they haven't shown her dealing effectively with it.  Felicity is a bit of a control freak reverting to what she can calculate and control in times of stress (how to best pack boxes on a moving truck).  They show her stuck in a hole in the ground watching while Oliver runs off alone to face danger with Cupid, that can trigger a whole line of "crap I can't control this and it is scary".  Fleeing when scared is something that can be smart, but it can also mean giving up things that you will regret losing.  They are showing , not telling , a lot.

[Guest]

 Those feelings are still encased in their protective shell. 

 

Like a pistachio?