Alfred Pennyworth: In for a penny, in for a pound

[Kromm]

Played by Sean Pertwee, son of a Who, with a whole long list of his own credits, the vast majority of which US audiences will have not seen.

Clearly Alfred's role on this show is somewhat dependent on how much we see of Bruce Wayne.  The character brief for Alfred they've given seems to stress that he's an ex-Marine, so given his age here there's a decent chance he'll be shown as a man of action.

[MarkHB]

In all likelihood, the highest-profile American appearances for Sean have been several episodes as Inspector Lestrade on Elementary.  Plus, as you said, he's the son of the Third Doctor, so he's had some exposure to genre fiction audiences.  I'm really looking forward to seeing him in the role.

[Actionmage]

Yes! As soon as I heard Mr. Pertwee had been cast as Alfred, the teen comic geek in me pumped her fist. This is an Alfred that  an audience could buy as an ex-military man who, for whatever reason(s), stayed to protect and serve young Master Wayne. It also goes to how Alfred could always "fix" him up after bad fights or what have you.

 

Fall seems so very far away.

[MisterGlass]

The role of Alfred in the Pilot was small but noteworthy.  The ex-military impression was there, and he was not hesitant to command Bruce when the situation called for it - a favorite moment from the pilot was when he yelled at Bruce to get off the roof.  However, when Bruce admonished him for being sarcastic toward Gordon, he went silent and formal.  It brings home the oddness of being tasked with raising a child when you are simultaneously his servant.

 

I look forward to seeing more.

[Trini]

The Alfred-Bruce relationship is one of the things I'm really looking forward to see develop; since it hasn't been explored much in other media.

 

We only got to see a little bit of him in the Pilot, but it seems he's almost the opposite of nurturing. But I'm sure he deeply cares about Bruce, though.

[Camera One]

I'm looking forward to it too, but I wasn't too impressed by his performance in the pilot.  Hopefully, that will change when we actually see more than two short glimpses of him.

[Happytobehere]

In regards to the nurturing aspect of Alfred, remember that in all other versions, when we see the more gentle and parental Alfred, Bruce is an adult and his relationship with Alfred has grown into what we know. This is the first time we see or hopefully get to see that relationship develop. I look forward to seeing the tough military man learning how to nurture, support and care for a traumatized child, who although he is in charge of, is still his employer.

[rho]

This is probably what I'm most excited for with the show. It's wishful thinking but I would love to see an Alfred Pennyworth origin story. What we've seen of him on screen so far is always the gentle grandfather figure and for obvious reasons Michael Caine's incarnation is still fresh in my mind. But Gotham's Alfred is the equivalent of James Bond trying to raise a teenager. He was underused in the pilot but last night's episode was spot on and hopefully leads to more development with his character.

[Milz]

This is probably what I'm most excited for with the show. It's wishful thinking but I would love to see an Alfred Pennyworth origin story. What we've seen of him on screen so far is always the gentle grandfather figure and for obvious reasons Michael Caine's incarnation is still fresh in my mind. But Gotham's Alfred is the equivalent of James Bond trying to raise a teenager. He was underused in the pilot but last night's episode was spot on and hopefully leads to more development with his character.

 

Which makes me wonder why Thomas Wayne named him as Bruce's guardian and gave Alfred instructions on how to raise Bruce. Mr. Milz nor I would name someone who has no parenting ability nor shows any capacity for that ability to be guardian of our children.

[rho]

I really hope they explore that on the show, otherwise there's really no point to having Alfred and Bruce even be part of Gotham.

 

I think he got custody of Bruce because the other option was an orphanage. He has no remaining relatives and all of Gotham is corrupt. Even if the Waynes entrusted him to friends, it's only a matter of time before he gets the Cinderella/Harry Potter treatment. Maybe Alfred is the only one they trust. Or maybe they know he'll take care of Bruce out of a sense of duty to his own family's loyalty to the Waynes.

[Actionmage]

He has no remaining relatives and all of Gotham is corrupt.

I believe that reasoning, at least for this version. Gotham is no guarantee that the very rich will be left alone. How Thomas and Martha became rich and how they met Alfred will be interesting threads for this story.  Thomas has been referred to as a doctor in many, if not all, of the versions of Batman's origins. Maybe Thomas met Alfred during a war or other conflict?

 

Even if the Waynes entrusted him to friends, it's only a matter of time before he gets the Cinderella/Harry Potter treatment.

You realize, rho, Bruce is The Boy Who Lived, right? *G*

[Atony]

How Thomas and Martha became rich and how they met Alfred will be interesting threads for this story.  Thomas has been referred to as a doctor in many, if not all, of the versions of Batman's origins

 

Thomas Wayne is generally referred to as a physician but the Wayne family is supposed to be a old money family so he also grew up silverspoon in hand and inherited his wealth.

 

It is usually regarded that Alfred's father Jarvis Pennyworth served the Waynes during his lifetime and that is what eventually draws Alfred into deciding the work for the family.

 

Of course who knows what the show will do or if that history will be explored.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Atony

[kellinatorjones]

Silly me, I always thought Bruce was fucked in the head due to witnessing his parents' murder. After the pilot, I considered it might have something to do with the Waynes not being able to come up with anyone more appropriate than their butler as a guardian. Now I find out it's because Alfred was dumb enough, or subservient enough,  to parrot Thomas Wayne's piss-poor ideas on parenting. I really didn't need a version of Batman that gave me an unlikeable, shouty Alfred. 

[Camera One]

I'm glad the actor got a bit more to do in this second episode.  I'm assuming he's trying to balance letting Bruce make his decisions and yet also being his guardian.  

Edited October 1, 2014 by Camera One

[MisterGlass]

I will be curious to see if they give a back story of why Alfred was the chosen gaurdian, and how he ended up their butler.  A butler knows all the secrets, so he has to be a person that is trustworthy.  Alfred knows and cares for Bruce, and has probably seen him every day since he was born, aside from a few trips.

 

Alfred is having trouble adjusting, and his frustration is clear.  It would be challenging enough to be responsible for a new orphan that isn't playing 'the trick is not minding' game.  Bruce has gone from standing on the edge of the roof to deliberate self injury, with insomnia and nightmares thrown into the mix.  And even if Thomas Wayne had no objections to therapy, Bruce is not prepared to accept it.  I rewatched the scene at the end of episode two, where Alfred is explaining the problems they're having to Gordon.  Alfred lays out the parenting philosophy he's been instructed to use and Gordon calls it a recipe for disaster.  Alfred gives him an interesting little 'I don't disagree' look.  He is seeing how far he can stretch the rules by further involving Gordon in Bruce's life.  He's not professional help, but Bruce has spoken openly to him.

[janie jones]

Does anyone besides me feel like Alfred should be a bit younger?

[Camera One]

When Alfred was complaining about the dinner he had to cook, I was like, really?  There isn't a cook?  But I think if there were more people around he'd be less likely to turn into a weirdo, which he does end up being. 

 

Yeah, that was just weird.  So it's always just the two of them in the house?  Does Alfred do all the housework as well?

[Kromm]

Which makes me wonder why Thomas Wayne named him as Bruce's guardian and gave Alfred instructions on how to raise Bruce. Mr. Milz nor I would name someone who has no parenting ability nor shows any capacity for that ability to be guardian of our children.

I think we've been setup to believe there's a reason, and that Thomas Wayne had at least SOME basis to fear an early death, even if it wasn't at the top of his list of concerns.  We hear Falcone come close to outright implying the Waynes are just as implicit as him in the seedy web of power in Gotham as he is, and talk about people having their roles and such.  While I don't think we're supposed to conclude the Waynes were criminals, we ARE I think supposed to understand that at some point the actual criminals got so embedded in Gotham that they just had to be accepted by people like the Waynes and certain borders were established.  On some level Thomas must have understood what would happen in the unlikely case of him being killed (there were probably a whole different set of contingencies if only he had been and not his wife).  Ergo, if he's gone all of a sudden AND his wife is, then it most likely was a move that would require Bruce to grow a backbone afterwards, and I guess Alfred seemed to be the way to arrange that.

 

It still begs the question of if Alfred has any co-responsibility with other parties we haven't been introduced to yet.  In the comics, that

was definitely true (the character of Dr. Leslie Thompkins, who would have fit perfectly into this show, so it's so puzzling she's been excluded).

[Kromm]

Does anyone besides me feel like Alfred should be a bit younger?

Not even for a moment. This interpretation of Alfred depends on having a full military career behind him as well as having been around for Bruce's entire life. The numbers just don't add up if he's any younger than he is.  

And he's not that old.  Sean Pertwee is 50.  This Alfred doesn't appear to be any older than Pertwee himself (there's no makeup cue or anything in his discussed background to imply it).

[janie jones]

I know he's 50.  That seems old.  I'm thinking of how old he'll be when Bruce is full-on Batman-ing.

Edited October 12, 2014 by janie jones

[Camera One]

Bruce is 12 right now and he's 50.  So if Batman is 25, then he would be 63.  And when Batman is 40, he'd be 78.  Which is not unfathomable.  

[Kromm]

Bruce is 12 right now and he's 50.  So if Batman is 25, then he would be 63.  And when Batman is 40, he'd be 78.  Which is not unfathomable.  

Actually I think it's pretty much dead on with most versions of the characters.  We have a lot of actors over the years and comic book drawings to "average" together to make a composite of Alfred, but him winding up being a man in his 60s during Batman's prime years feels very accurate to almost all versions.

[janie jones]

Well then Alfred's age in almost all versions seems old to me.  Agree to disagree, I suppose.

[Kromm]

Here's 1966ish Alan Napier--the Alfred the most older folk probably have stuck in their minds (from the original TV series). I know things are relative (since I bet we probably couldn't even agree on what age Adam West's version of Batman is supposed to be--although West was actually 38 at the time), but Napier was actually 63 at the time, and maybe even looked a bit older IMO.  And for me at least that matches pretty well with expectations of someone who's been a Butler since boyhood to a late 30-something adult.  This version of Alfred starting with the Waynes in his mid-20s (and being in his 30s when the Waynes die) makes sense in theory (more about why it would only have to be a theory later), because while the comics version of Alfred actually had a previous military career, it wasn't very clear if the TV one did (he certainly never acted like it).  Although the numbers make even more sense if West's version of Batman was supposed to be younger than West's actual age (allowing that version of Alfred to start with the Waynes a bit older or have been around with them before Bruce was born).  So overall, Napier is the one Alfred who definitely WOULD be younger than Pertwee in relation to a 12 year old orphaned Bruce.  But here's the spanner in that.  In the 1960s when the TV show was on the air, Alfred's back-story in the comics (which presumably was the same in the TV show) WASN'T that he raised Bruce or even worked for the Waynes when Bruce was a child.  That only became Alfred's backstory in the 1980s.  The original Alfred was hired by Bruce as an adult (Bruce was I believe raised after his parents died by some aunt). Alfred had a father Jarvis Pennyworth, who was the Wayne Butler before they died who made it his dying wish years later that his son go back and serve the (by then) grown-up Bruce.

 

 

Here's Michael Gough--the Alfred in the first four Batman movies in the 80s and 90s. So for a middle-aged generation he'd be the default Alfred.  I think this pic is from one of the earlier movies he was in. He was in fact 73 when Burton filmed the first film, and 81 when Joel Schumaker reused him in the fourth film.  And he looks it.  Since he was used playing against three different Batman actors though, trying to figure his age vs. Bruce Wayne's age is probably a pointless endeavor.  For the record though, all of these movies were made after the comics established Alfred as Bruce's surrogate father figure who raised him.

 

 

Michael Caine was 72 when he played Alfred in Batman Begins. He is, as far as I know though, the first non-comics version of Alfred overtly alleged to have a previous military career (which as I said, requires Alfred to be even older), and he's playing against a Batman who when we first really see him don the suit is arguably supposed to be in his mid 20s (so younger than many other versions who have gotten to the movie stage--so if THIS Alfred can be assumed to be around Sir Michael's real age, he would seem to have been in his late 40s when Bruce was born, and his late 50s when the Waynes died.  

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Kromm

[Tenshinhan]

They've always made Alfred into a more elderly guy in the film and television adaptations.  He's always like, fifteen to twenty years older than in the comic books.  

 

I guess it does make more sense when Alfred is portrayed as being ex-military and Bruce's lifelong butler, but still.

 

And don't forget the Alfreds from the film serials!

 

William Austin, Batman (1943):

 

 

Eric Wilton, Batman and Robin (1949):

 

 

[Kromm]

They've always made Alfred into a more elderly guy in the film and television adaptations.  He's always like, fifteen to twenty years older than in the comic books.  

 

I guess it does make more sense when Alfred is portrayed as being ex-military and Bruce's lifelong butler, but still.

I don't know if him being 20 years younger in the comics quite works out either.  Alfred in the comics has ALWAYS been ex-military, unlike many of the film and TV (and even cartoon) versions.  Alfred Mark I was ex-British Intelligence, who actually retired and Butlering for Bruce was his second career at his dying father's request. With Alfred Mark II I don't recall if he had the same backstory with his father bringing him around to working for the Wayne family, but he was still an ex-British intelligence operative--just in this case one who was around since Bruce's birth, if not even earlier.  Plus I definitely recall that the second Alfred also had a career as an actor after leaving the military, so working as a Butler was actually his THIRD career.  In theory this "new 52" DC continuity in the past few years reset the origins once again though, so I suppose what I know of Alfred Mark II may not be true of the current Alfred Mark III.

 

None of that really buys into Alfred being that much younger (with the exception of Alfred Mark III, I mean, where I just don't know). The Alfred around for several decades before that though had  two full careers under his belt, THEN being around since Bruce was born. By that measure, comic book Alfred had to be in his late 60s at the very LEAST (much older when we eventually see Dick Grayson in his mid-20s and Bruce himself presumably in his 40s), even if the artwork doesn't reflect it completely (although remember that literally HUNDREDS of different artists have drawn Alfred).  So it may be pointless to insert a graphic here, since it varies so much.  I mean even with overall guidelines for his appearance, every artist did their own thing somewhat.  However, just to have a RANGE.... here's a few random Alfred images.  The first is Alfred as first drawn in 1943 (where it makes sense he'd be the youngest of any possible Alfreds since he has so little backstory baggage at that point). The second is a fairly typical Alfred from I think the 1960s. The third is a deluxe Alfred cover drawing by Alex Ross (one of DCs biggest artists) in 2009.

 

 

 

Then there's the Animation Alfreds (there are at least four distinct ones, since there's the Timmverse Batman, and at least three other animated Batman continuities as well--four if we count the old Superfriends show as wel).  The one the MOST people know though is the Timmverse one.  His age LOOKS mid-60s, but that's a wild ass guess because it's a fairly simple drawing--even when animated.

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Kromm

[MisterGlass]

I think that Sean Pertwee as Alfred is in the appropriate age range.

 

Alfred does seem to be doing all the housework and cooking right now.  It may be that they have shutoff parts of the mansion for the time being, so that he is only maintaining a portion of it.

 

I notice that in "Arkham" he spoke freely to Gordon until Bruce entered, but he then reverted to his role as servant and stood quietly to one side.  I could see him being a source for Gordon in the upper echelon as much as Oswald is in the lower.

[Tenshinhan]

I guess I just don't see Alfred being in his seventies like in the movies...

 

 

I mean realistically it might make sense, given Alfred's Modern Age background, but to me Pertwee seems closer in age to an Alfred at the time that Bruce is already Batman, not a pre-teen.

 

Although I guess if they're trying to follow the big screen examples, it's dead-on.  YMMV.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Tenshinhan

[Actionmage]

I like the idea of Alfred being a resource for Gordon. He would not only be an outsider, but considered "just" help by a bunch of the elite, no doubt. (The Mob seems to be a bit smarter, but we haven't seen their households, so. ::shrugs::)  There is almost a rooting for Gordon from Alfred, a sincere  but realistic rooting, that would make Mr. Pennyworth a great source for the hoi polloi.

 

I think Alfred needs to speak to Jim about just how much frankness the kid needs. Young Bruce is still having nightmares of the crime. He's trying to carry his parents' dreams out while still twelve. Explaining the realities of a compromise for the present is okay, due to Bruce spending days in notes of the Waynes' plan. Yet, it feels very lop-sided and too much for any kid to have to deal with.  I get that Gordon's honesty is keeping Bruce relatively balanced, but that is not good for Bruce. I am interested in where Alfred finally loses patience with Bruce and rips the orphan a new one. 

[Kromm]

I guess I just don't see Alfred being in his seventies like in the movies...

 

But again, it's worth noting that those are all Alfred images from before 1985 (when they rebooted his origin). For arguments sake, lets say he could be as young as his mid 50s (it's so hard to tell with four color drawings).  That's fine with that version of Alfred, because he's a version of Alfred who had nothing to do with the Wayne family until Bruce was an adult (and already had a Robin, in fact--so a thirty-something Batman).  So even if that Alfred is still a former British intelligence operative, and maybe even an actor after that (I don't really know for sure when that last part was added to his backstory), the one thing he wasn't was around when Bruce was mini-Bruce (or even worse, a dozen years earlier from that, when Bruce was fetus/newborn Bruce).  

So THAT Alfred can be in his 50s serving a mid 30s man quite easily.  He wouldn't have had to have had a career or two before showing up at Stately Wayne Manor in his mid-20s in order to be there before Bruce Wayne was born, then hang around for 35 years until the stories with Batman & Robin.  He just showed up one day, in his mid 50s, with the story about how it was his Dad Jarvis' dying request for him to go serve the Waynes.  The early stories, in fact, feature Batman and Robin HIDING their secret identities from Alfred, and there being all kinds of wacky shenanigans surrounding that--until he figures out eventually why the two of them keep disappearing.  That's why he's dressed like a Holmes-like Detective reading that "How to be a Detective" book in that 1943 image I have a few posts ago.

 

It's the pure amount of stuff "modern" Alfred had to do before we see Batman as an adult that's driving his age more than anything else.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Kromm

[Milz]

 

 

It still begs the question of if Alfred has any co-responsibility with other parties we haven't been introduced to yet.  In the comics, that

was definitely true (the character of Dr. Leslie Thompkins, who would have fit perfectly into this show, so it's so puzzling she's been excluded).

 

In the comics too, Ma Chllton was orphaned Bruce's primary parental figure. If Gotham follows the 'books

Ma Chilton ought to be introduced because her son, Joe Chill, killed the Wayne's.

Unless Gotham doesn't follow the 'books at all, and has a completely different conclusion.

[Kromm]

In the comics too, Ma Chllton was orphaned Bruce's primary parental figure. If Gotham follows the 'books

Ma Chilton ought to be introduced because her son, Joe Chill, killed the Wayne's.

Unless Gotham doesn't follow the 'books at all, and has a completely different conclusion.

I think over the years they've

gone back and forth on the killer. It's only been Joe Chill about half the time, I think.  So this is one thing they can veer from fairly easily.

[Milz]

I think over the years they've

gone back and forth on the killer. It's only been Joe Chill about half the time, I think.  So this is one thing they can veer from fairly easily.

 

This is why I hated the Crisis and stopped reading DC altogether. 

[Miss Dee]

It's possible that Alfred is the only live-in staff and that the cook, cleaners, etc. are just hired to come in and do their thing and go home. Therefore we don't tally see them around.

[Kromm]

Hmm. Since this version of Gotham is so out of time (old timey in some places, contemporary in others), maybe there's some future in there too, and there are domestic robots.

 

Or not.

[Camera One]

I think Alfred needs to speak to Jim about just how much frankness the kid needs. Young Bruce is still having nightmares of the crime. He's trying to carry his parents' dreams out while still twelve. Explaining the realities of a compromise for the present is okay, due to Bruce spending days in notes of the Waynes' plan. Yet, it feels very lop-sided and too much for any kid to have to deal with.  I get that Gordon's honesty is keeping Bruce relatively balanced, but that is not good for Bruce. I am interested in where Alfred finally loses patience with Bruce and rips the orphan a new one. 

Even if Gordon didn't say a thing, the kid got crime photos on his own and is digging into the Arkham files as a hobby.  If Gordon didn't tell Bruce the real reason why the Mayor changed his plan, the kid would still be digging.

 

I did think it was more weird in the first episode that Jim told Bruce that his parents' murderer is still out there and the crime was pinned on the wrong person.

[Actionmage]

Even if Gordon didn't say a thing, the kid got crime photos on his own and is digging into the Arkham files as a hobby.  If Gordon didn't tell Bruce the real reason why the Mayor changed his plan, the kid would still be digging.

 

That is why I said that I understood why Gordon explained things to Bruce about the compromise in this  episode. Bruce is a freshly orphaned 12-year-old boy who doesn't need to access all the files about everything he deems important all the time on demand. Seeing Alfred put a stop to that will be interesting. Alfred clearly wasn't a cheerleader for the Wayne's last wishes, re:Bruce, so it will be an interesting road to see what Mr. Pennyworth  is going to insist that the isolation and other activities be stopped and a semblance of a normal life starts up. (I'm not saying Alfred has to be anti-crusader, just that Bruce needs to re-engage with the world, no matter the state.)

[Actionmage]

We got good Alfred moments tonight, but it looks like it is the calm before the first of many storms.

 

Still, Alfred's face when realizing that Bruce was playing, was great. His straight-no-chaser was probably a refreshing change for Selina. Liked her calling him "Old Man".

 

I think, sometimes, Alfred may be overplaying his empathy; Bruce looked like he was surprised by Alfred's 'well, you like this girl' talk, while not fully disagreeing. When the subject is more natural to Our Mr. Pennyworth, Alfred is on it. opinions and other views, and why Alfred thinks they're good or bad. Something like a young Cat-Tween? Alfred is feeling at a loss, except that she is a street child as trustworthy as he could throw her. It was only due to Bruce that Selina has a safe place to be.

 

Sean Pertwee is just rocking this role!  Yay!

[MisterGlass]

After this episode, perhaps Alfred should put on the cape and cowl.

 

From the episode review:

 

It's pretty clear that the team of Pennyworth and Bullock need their own spin-off

I would watch that.

[Actionmage]

One's  butler! Ones a cop! Together, they bring law and order to lawless Gotham, in Not A Valet! Coming to Fox, 2016..

[MarkHB]

After "LoveCraft," particularly Alfred's scene with Fish, I'm wondering if he has ever operated under the name Lamont Cranston.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Lamont Cranston.

OK, you are now truly one of my favorite people.

Edited December 1, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[Milz]

Well, after Lovecraft, I've warmed up to Alfred. I can see (sorta) why the Waynes made him Bruce's guardian. And Sean Pertwee is hot, imo. :)

[Actionmage]

Sean Pertwee got me in my feels. When Bruce was all 'Naw, I'll do this on my own'? Oof.  Maybe take a page from Grimm and have Bruce and Alfred agree that Alfred is his lovely Not-Dad?  He fulfills that role when needed, but isn't a substitute dad, as such?

 

Mr. Pertwee can do so much with just a look or a phrase. I'm really glad he's here.

[MisterGlass]

He is a good choice, and brings some subtlety. 

 

As far as parenting goes, he doesn't believing in coddeling.  Sprain your ankle, get yourself back up the hill.  Self-reliance, Master Bruce.

[MisterGlass]

Saw this and thought I'd link it here.