S02.E01: Politically Incorrect

[Kromm]

Okay, point taken.  I guess my point was that the person I was responding to was basically saying the reverse--that Caitlyn is NOT "legitimate". I should have responded simply by saying that questioning that isn't our right.  Caitlyn is a horrible person, but she's the only one who has that particular right.

[RemoteControlFreak]

I have to say after watching this episode I really feel like Bruce Jenner was really only interested in cross-dressing and not actually being a woman.  If you've always felt like a woman (inside) did the idea of being with a man never cross your mind? Doesn't seem like there's much instrospection just a lot of superficial fluff.

I disagree.   Who you love is different from who you are.  It's the difference between gender identity and gender orientation.  

 

There is no evidence that Jenner did not have gender dysphoria -- a disorder in which the physical body doesn't align with the mental perception of a person's gender.  This actually has nothing to do with gender orientation -- who one is romantically attracted to.

 

It makes perfect sense that she would put the issue of gender orientation on the back burner while dealing with the much more pressing issue for her of gender dysphoria.

 

As for her current conflict, I think she's been pretty clear that she's still romantically attracted to women, but likes the idea of being with a man who can do the stereotypically male things like open doors for her and escort her to formal events, and because it's more socially acceptable in her conservative world to be heterosexual than homosexual.  Her conflict is that the former means she's a lesbian, and she doesn't want that label.   And the latter isn't an honest expression of her attraction.

 

I think it's a little unfair for the "girls on the bus" to pressure her so much.  I believe all of them except Jenny Boylan identified as gay men before transitioning to women, so the idea that they would now date men is not a change for them.  And Boylan was in a different place than Jenner when she transitioned. She was still married, had young children, and lived a relatively private life in rural Maine. The fact that she's a liberal democrat probably made it easier for both Jenny and her wife to accept their new identities as lesbians, though obviously it could not have been easy.  Unlike Jenner, she hadn't lived for 40+ years as a famous athlete, Hollywood celebrity, reality TV performer,  conservative Republican, and member of the fame whoriest family that ever fame whored.

Edited March 10, 2016 by RemoteControlFreak

[Kromm]

I think it's a little unfair for the "girls on the bus" to pressure her so much. 

See, I can't flip that switch. The problem is that everyone involved in this show has compromised themselves too much for us to take them seriously. If this was all happening spontaneously to a random transgender woman, with no reality show around, no famewhoring on any side, and a legit and organically assembled group of peers, you'd be totally right in that analysis.

 

But they're there because they're being paid to be there as Caitlyn's greek chorus, commenting on everything she does. That's not to excuse them. The ladies themselves are compromised by coming back in Season 2, when they couldn't claim ignorance of anything. So both the situation AND all of the people involved are bogus. Caitlyn has her right to be who she is, and that's independent of this show. But the rest? Suspect. Especially anything that's posing Caitlyn as a victim in any way. She's the one with all the power in this, not those other ladies--who could be banished from this show at a mere wave of Caitlyn's hand.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Kromm

[RemoteControlFreak]

They may be paid to accompany Caitlyn, but they are obviously free to criticize her every move.

 

I think the show is remarkable for its willingness to paint Jenner in such a bad light and have her consistently be challenged by this group of other transwomen.  And, I have to say, while I completely disagree with much of what Jenner stands for politically, I applaud her willingness to be publicly criticized.

 

It's also important to understand that folks like Jenny Boylan, Kate Bornstein, and Zackary Drucker are not random transwomen just plucked to be paid televised spokespeople of the 99% vs. Cait's 1%.  They are all prominent writers, academics and/or advocates for and about issues related to the trans experience and trans rights.  They are strong enough and established enough not be undermined by their involvement with Cait. And, like it or not, Cait Jenner is the most visible trans person in the history of the world.  The opportunity to simultaneously attach themselves to her and challenge her misguided understanding is extremely valuable.

[millennium]

Okay, point taken.  I guess my point was that the person I was responding to was basically saying the reverse--that Caitlyn is NOT "legitimate". I should have responded simply by saying that questioning that isn't our right.  Caitlyn is a horrible person, but she's the only one who has that particular right.

 

I wasn't criticizing or questioning your observation.    Just musing on all the angst caused by those words.

Edited March 9, 2016 by millennium

[Muffyn]

For better or worse Caitlin is highly visible.  She has garnered a level of media attention that the trans right activists have not  So I can understand why they would stay associated with this show, no matter how distasteful Cait can be.

 

Cait is so far from thoughtful that I don’t think it occurred to her that if she is a woman attracted to women she would be considered a lesbian.  I am also not sure she understands that femme lesbians exist.  Her worldview is so limited along with her ideas of what women are like that I doubt she put much thought at all into her sexuality. 

 

As far as the women on the bus asking her about it, I sense producer shenanigans, asking them to ask the question.  That or the issue came up organically during a many hour bus ride; perhaps someone was talking about her current relationship.  This is the part of the conversation that was shown from many hours of filming.  Since Cait does seem to take every conversation and make it about herself, she may have walked right into this.

 

Given her very retro concept of male and female roles in relationships, I can see her wanting a man to open doors, bring her flowers, etc.  The interesting thing is when she presented as a man in a heterosexual relationship, she was with strong-willed women.  She comes across as more strong-willed now than she did as Bruce.  However, that could simply be warped because she is now the focus of a show rather than an additional player in a show focused on her daughters. 

 

Regardless, the one thing we seem to mostly agree on is she is shallow and boring.  In seeing her interacting with people who have had to struggle to be who they are and who also faced strong economic and social challenges, she seems particularly clueless.  It has not been easy for Cait to transition; I doubt it has ever been easy for anyone.  She was in the public eye and known as a very different person.  However, she has the privilege of being able to block many of the negatives that others have to endure.  She has had a much easier time than most of the trans people she had met.

 

As to the question raised above regarding how employers would know you are transgender, not everyone “passes”.  Also, people are sometimes outed because their used name does not match the name on their ID or their ID has an incorrect gender.  Getting a new ID with the correct gender is a major issue for many people.  So being recognized as transgender has nothing to do with people being on TV.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Muffyn

[possibilities]

I suppose if we don't want groupthink, there's value in showing disagreements. But the arguments being made on the show are not being made articulately. In theory, the show could be showing that there's more than one way to be and to view the world (i.e. that not all trans people are the same), but it's not really showing that, either. It's just making everyone look inarticulate and stupid. Eye-rolling and setting one's jaw does not amount to a lucid argument. Yelling at each other without really explaining yourself at the same time is not a model of "agreeing to disagree" or "loving across differences"-- it's just juvenile. So I have to wonder if the editors are trying to make everyone look bad, or if that's really the best footage they could get out of this bunch. I mean, you can find much more lucid arguments elsewhere if you look. So why not here?

 

I also think it has to be considered that the people on the show may have had to sign a 3 year contract in the beginning. So them still being there may not be because they want to be, but because leaving means a huge penalty. Everyone may be resenting everyone else by now, and thus not really co-operating at peak efficiency.

 

I do agree that with Cait being so famous, there is the hope that educational efforts on her show might get out to people not actually prone to looking for better quality info. But it's all being done so badly, it makes me doubt how effective all that is really being. I feel like if I didn't have a broader perspective, I'd be pretty disgusted and turned off by the way everyone on the show is acting-- people aren't likable or though-provoking, they're just irritating and volatile and generally shallow and ridiculous.

 

First season did show some more appealing people. Maybe they will do that again. But the bus trip so far has been a real disappointment.

[RemoteControlFreak]

As to the question raised above regarding how employers would know you are transgender, not everyone “passes”.  Also, people are sometimes outed because their used name does not match the name on their ID or their ID has an incorrect gender.  Getting a new ID with the correct gender is a major issue for many people.  So being recognized as transgender has nothing to do with people being on TV.

Or they want to transition while keeping the same job. Hard to hide that.

[millennium]

I suppose if we don't want groupthink, there's value in showing disagreements. But the arguments being made on the show are not being made articulately. In theory, the show could be showing that there's more than one way to be and to view the world (i.e. that not all trans people are the same), but it's not really showing that, either. It's just making everyone look inarticulate and stupid. Eye-rolling and setting one's jaw does not amount to a lucid argument. Yelling at each other without really explaining yourself at the same time is not a model of "agreeing to disagree" or "loving across differences"-- it's just juvenile. So I have to wonder if the editors are trying to make everyone look bad, or if that's really the best footage they could get out of this bunch. I mean, you can find much more lucid arguments elsewhere if you look. So why not here?

 

I also think it has to be considered that the people on the show may have had to sign a 3 year contract in the beginning. So them still being there may not be because they want to be, but because leaving means a huge penalty. Everyone may be resenting everyone else by now, and thus not really co-operating at peak efficiency.

 

I do agree that with Cait being so famous, there is the hope that educational efforts on her show might get out to people not actually prone to looking for better quality info. But it's all being done so badly, it makes me doubt how effective all that is really being. I feel like if I didn't have a broader perspective, I'd be pretty disgusted and turned off by the way everyone on the show is acting-- people aren't likable or though-provoking, they're just irritating and volatile and generally shallow and ridiculous.

 

First season did show some more appealing people. Maybe they will do that again. But the bus trip so far has been a real disappointment.

 

The crux of the problem is that this stupid show, in a craven bid to justify or validate its own existence, sells itself as a platform for transgender advocacy.   All the frustration and anger, whether among the public or the transgender advocates in the show,  is arising from the disappointing and undeniable disparity between what was advertised and what has been delivered.   Jenner promised the elevator but she gave us the shaft.

 

I AM CAIT is nothing but a vanity project for Jenner.    The show has no reason to exist other than to flatter Jenner and fulfill her private fantasies of being a famous, glamorous female (although I think she falls way short in that department) and a world-recognized champion again (ditto).   And that's it.   It goes no deeper than that.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

I Am Cait Has A Mutiny On The Highway
Lalalalalalalala Cait isn't listening to you!

[nexxie]

The crux of the problem is that this stupid show, in a craven bid to justify or validate its own existence, sells itself as a platform for transgender advocacy.   All the frustration and anger, whether among the public or the transgender advocates in the show,  is arising from the disappointing and undeniable disparity between what was advertised and what has been delivered.   Jenner promised the elevator but she gave us the shaft.

 

I AM CAIT is nothing but a vanity project for Jenner.    The show has no reason to exist other than to flatter Jenner and fulfill her private fantasies of being a famous, glamorous female (although I think she falls way short in that department) and a world-recognized champion again (ditto).   And that's it.   It goes no deeper than that.

imo the show would be better without Jenner - the other ladies are interesting and fun. The addition of such a young woman was a good idea too, since many young people are probably struggling with this, whether it's about themselves, family members or friends.

[politichick]

I really don't believe Caitlyn gave much  thought to anything other than make up  and clothing and mani pedis, when she envisioned transitioning.

The ladies on the bus are trying to expand her viewpoint but then Kim is lecturing her on the importance of a good DVM photo.   

I totally agree with this assessment; it's all about the exterior. She also is obscenely shallow and ignorant. I suspect Cait may be asexual. Has she even had gender reassignment surgery yet? She's like a car wreck I can't stop looking at and I'm sorry if this sounds politically incorrect, but there's still a lot of Bruce Jenner inside of her.

[iwasish]

It's kind of funny that as a man Caitlyn couldn't find the balls to stand up to Kris and demand to have something more than a corner of the garage to tinker around in, a putting green on property that she owned equally, and insist that she support her disciplining her children and not over rule and allow them to circumvent her decisions by encouraging them to lie and sneak behind her back, but as a woman she's suddenly able to meet with her and stare her down, and reduce her to tears.

[millennium]

 but as a woman she's suddenly able to meet with her and stare her down, and reduce her to tears.

 

Under other circumstances I would belittle that sort of behavior by saying, "What a big man."

[SmithW6079]

Under other circumstances I would belittle that sort of behavior by saying, "What a big man."

Is that like when someone says, "with all due respect" when they actually mean "with no respect"?

Caitlyn Jenner may be shallow and obsessed with appearances and misguided in her thoughts that she'd be some kind of leader in the transgender community, but is she in any way entitled to less respect given to any other transgender woman? Because the way she's been blasted in practically every media outlet that's what it seems like.

[millennium]

No media personality has made more statements detrimental to the transgender community in the past year than the farcical, fame-whoring figure who unilaterally appointed herself the face of that community.

 

It's an American tradition to tear down hypocrites.   If she is being blasted, I suspect it has more to do with her being a self-centered poseur than the fact that she's transgender.

[CousinAmy]

Is that like when someone says, "with all due respect" when they actually mean "with no respect"?

Caitlyn Jenner may be shallow and obsessed with appearances and misguided in her thoughts that she'd be some kind of leader in the transgender community, but is she in any way entitled to less respect given to any other transgender woman? Because the way she's been blasted in practically every media outlet that's what it seems like.

I'm here for the snark. She gets just as much respect from me as I give to any reality show "star." Just because she's now a transgender women doesn't mean she's entitled to be treated with kid gloves.

[millennium]

I'm here for the snark. She gets just as much respect from me as I give to any reality show "star." Just because she's now a transgender women doesn't mean she's entitled to be treated with kid gloves.

 

 

The truth is, Jenner has been given more kid glove treatment in the past year than any other national figure I can recall in my lifetime.   She has been a veritable sacred cow to the forces of political correctness in this country.   For many months legions of PC minions ate, drank and slept by their Twitter accounts waiting to intercept and destroy any and all commentary that had the slightest whiff of criticism or disapproval of Jenner the Sacrosanct.   No one was safe, not even Clint Eastwood for saying something that wasn't offensive to anyone.

 

And Jenner wallowed in it.   Behind the scenes she reveled in this or that person being socially pressured into retracting their words and making public apologies to her.

 

Incredibly, despite all that misdirected good will squandered on her, Jenner never thought twice about expressing personal opinions that caused insult and anguish to other transgender or LGBT people -- sometimes in thoughtless attempts to cast herself in a better light.

 

I hope she gets the comeuppance she deserves.

Edited March 12, 2016 by millennium

[millennium]

Anyway, the more I read, the more I suspect this "Politically Incorrect" stance is all for television.   A shit-stirring gimmick to get people to watch.   "Let's see what outrageous thing she says THIS week!"

 

Already the show's hyping her "Hillary Clinton is a fucking liar" statement for tomorrow's episode.

[Kromm]

Is that like when someone says, "with all due respect" when they actually mean "with no respect"?

Caitlyn Jenner may be shallow and obsessed with appearances and misguided in her thoughts that she'd be some kind of leader in the transgender community, but is she in any way entitled to less respect given to any other transgender woman? Because the way she's been blasted in practically every media outlet that's what it seems like.

People's actions, especially when made very public by their own doing, are total and complete fair game for criticism. No one, nobody on the planet, has an inbuilt "right" to respect that is unassailable when held against their conduct.

[nexxie]

It's kind of funny that as a man Caitlyn couldn't find the balls to stand up to Kris and demand to have something more than a corner of the garage to tinker around in, a putting green on property that she owned equally, and insist that she support her disciplining her children and not over rule and allow them to circumvent her decisions by encouraging them to lie and sneak behind her back, but as a woman she's suddenly able to meet with her and stare her down, and reduce her to tears.

That's really interesting - but I guess we all feel more empowered when we are comfortable in our own skins.

[millennium]

That's really interesting - but I guess we all feel more empowered when we are comfortable in our own skins.

 

IMHO, it's not femininity that empowers her, it's the newfound fame. THAT is her skin.

[nexxie]

IMHO, it's not femininity that empowers her, it's the newfound fame. THAT is her skin.

Could be, but Bruce was famous for decades before Caitlyn hit the scene.

[millennium]

I don't remember news outlets quoting every remark that dribbled out of Jenner's mouth before the surgery. I don't recall pre-surgery Jenner being on magazine covers any time in the past thirty years. No one under the age of 30 knew who she was, other than "that old man on Keeping Up With the Kardashians." Relatively speaking, nobody has given a rat's ass about Jenner since the 70s.

But Jenner found a way to change that. All it took was the exploitation of a community at risk.

Caitlyn and Bruce are the same person. There's no surgery to change what's inside.

Edited March 13, 2016 by 17wheatthins
Proper pronouns

[TomGirl]

They are realizing they hitched their wagons not to a star but to a horse's ass.

Love it!

[TomGirl]

I AM CAIT is nothing but a vanity project for Jenner.    The show has no reason to exist other than to flatter Jenner and fulfill her private fantasies of being a famous, glamorous female (although I think she falls way short in that department) and a world-recognized champion again (ditto).   And that's it.   It goes no deeper than that.

I agree with this. Very well put.

[hatchetgirl]

My 2nd eldest sister transitioned in the layers 80's and still loves women. Which I'm fine with. Love who you love.

She's an awful diehard republican though which drives me insane, but again, it's her life and she can make it harder for herself if she wants.

What peeves me off is she was beaten up during her change because she was a pilot for Hughes and the mechanics hated her. I it was awful. Cait, doesn't understand the history or even want to.

Edited March 14, 2016 by hatchetgirl

[apollonia666]

I hadn't gotten around to watching yet this season, but I finally watched this episode.  Afterward I deleted the rest from my DVR and removed it from my recording queue.  I feel SO CLEAN. I will miss seeing Kate Bornstein and Jennifer Finney Boylan on the tube, but Jenner is simply insufferable.

 

If someone did an edited version that removed all of Cait from "I Am Cait," thus featuring all of the other girls, I'd be totally on board.

[jacksgirl]

Late to the party, only watched because this show was the only thing on at the gym. When they were on the bus complaining about the bus bathroom, all I could think of was the Duggar Stink Bus from 16 (and on) Kids and Counting.

[xls]

Wonder what she thinks of the wonderful candidate she backed now https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-administration-eyes-defining-transgender-out-of-existence/ar-BBOFkPk?ocid=spartanntp