S11.E14: The Vessel

[Omegamom]

I love Tippi. "The Winchesters decide to have their brotherly moment on the shore of a lake on the edges of the coastal rainforests of Kansas." Hee! Actually, though, I've got to say that this lakeshore actually looks a bit like some parts of Kansas (that weren't completely denuded of trees because, as my hubby's granddad said, trees were Not A Crop, therefore useless).

[Myrelle]

Not sure how to feel about this one. I did expect more from it. We haven`t gotten a "Dean"-episode so far this Season and for some reason, I thought this was gonna be it. Instead I would say it was more guest-star-heavy in the flashbacks and Casifer-focused in present time.

 

The very construct of the time travel here meant Dean was only gonna be, as he said, a witness. He didn`t really interact in a more dynamic way with happenings back then, like in "In the Beginning" or "Frontierland". I thought Delphine was a very good character and the entire crew was quite heroic but it felt more or less like their story. Not an uninteresting one at all but with Dean just as a visitor in it.

 

The Hand not working (maybe only not not or maybe not ever again) was also a given since it`s only episode 14 and not 21. So Dean technically succeeded in his mission but it felt pointless in hindsight since nothing came from it anyway. The episode more or less treaded water when it comes to the arc.

 

I guess my enjoyment will depend on if this was all foreshadowing for Dean sitting things out, as a "witness", as the "least valuable player", as the one on the sidelines. Or if he actually gets a valid, active role later on, not just emo.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the episode also, and I'm now beginning to wonder if almost every subsequent episode will generate the same type of feeling for me, especially if Dean's purported inability to harm Amara continues to be highlighted and with no reason as to why, supplied. I'm sure they will wait until episode 22 or 23 to do that(especially going by what Jensen said in his most recent con M&G concerning the Dean/Amara connection), but until then, the fear just grows more and  more for many in the Dean fandom that Dean's only role in the big fight will, once again, just be to "witness" the heroics of others. I truly hope that Carver has more in mind than a complete and total redux of Swan Song as that would make this season a flushable waste product to me and not even worthy of the rock bottom ten dollar eventual sale price of the S11 DVD.

 

I've seen it said that the biggest shame about this one is that it WAS a very good episode-except that it's the second one in a row that includes an ending that could be interpreted as portending of an end to Dean's active involvement in the resolution to a storyline that started out with him being the lynchpin of the storyline; the Chosen One even. Hopefully, he won't just be a powerless Chosen One. Hopefully, he'll have more to do than just act as bait or a lure for Amara, so that he can then stand aside while the real heroics are performed by another character. IDK, but at this point it feels as if this season has done little more than slowly devolve into that  fear, with every new episode-good or bad-only bringing us a bit closer to the same, expected disappointment. So far(and like S8), this has been the kind of season that makes me feel like this show has now become something that's better viewed via binge watching after any given season is over-if it's even worth that. I sure hope that they can pull off something(and give us some genuine Deancentric episodes) that make me feel differently as we head towards the finish line.

[SueB]

 expected disappointment.

 

That's the key tho.  I would think that if you are expecting disappointment, it's harder to see anything but.  I'm not saying that isn't a valid expectation.  It's your choice.  But I think it's also fair to say that if I go into an episode expecting something cool, I'll probably find it.  

 

For this episode, I expected a Dean-heavy episode and that's what I got.  Sam even said he was "riding the pine." If I was a Sam-only fan, I'd be lamenting that he made that comment. Or that he was fooled by Casifer for half the episode. But what I saw lived up to my Sam expectation --- he keep fighting to help his brother. Didn't go to the sub because risking both wasn't strategic (plus, too tall... seriously). And he saved the day in the Bunker with the Angel-B-Gone sigil. As for Dean, I count this as a Dean-centric episode compared to a more balanced story.  That's okay. "Just My Imagination" was a Sam story.  It balances.  In this case Dean was feeling like he was useless so he pulled the time travel gig. Again.  Dean ALWAYS gets the time travel gig.  Sam's gone a couple of times but this has happened enough it's practically a Dean thing.  So he gets a cool story.  WWII sub, Das Boot, Hand of God glowy moment, hearing a Nazi Necromancer threaten stuff.  Sure, he didn't accomplish anything but be a witness to some cool stuff.  But there was motivation there for him. He watched a group of heroes make the ultimate sacrifice to win their war and help him.  It's not that Dean isn't motivated to stop the Darkness. But witnessing that kind of moment helps you put things in perspective. 

 

And honestly, I think the Hand of God is either going to come back to be useful or LEAD to something else. 

 

So... I get that it's not the story everyone wants for Dean.... but I thought it was a Dean character story with an EPIC setting and some very cool mytharc stuff.  Then again, I like the slow burn. 

[Myrelle]

As for Dean, I count this as a Dean-centric episode compared to a more balanced story.  That's okay. "Just My Imagination" was a Sam story.  It balances.

 

Yeah, not IMO. Not even close. But there's eight episodes left. At this point, even one episode that might give us a look inside Dean's head at the present time would be a most welcome change regarding what they've done(or more precisely, what they haven't done) with Dean and his storyline and characterization this season.

 

He watched a group of heroes make the ultimate sacrifice to win their war and help him.  It's not that Dean isn't motivated to stop the Darkness. But witnessing that kind of moment helps you put things in perspective.

 

And it's infuriating to me that after all the sacrificing of friends and loved ones that he's already made over the course of this series that these writers still think that Dean needs a lesson or to be schooled on this. Yes, it infuriating, but it's also a very easy go-to Dean storyline for writers who lack the imagination to come up with something different for a character who has been imbued with so many layers by an actor who is able to subvert the often one dimensional writing and mindsets behind the writing of his character. The writing in this episode to me, felt like a soft-pedalled attempt at justifying the writing of the Purge speech-which was total garbage, IMO, but which the writers of that one labelled as "hard truths" that needed to be said. I'm not going with the "tell" on this just because the writers somehow keep insisting on it. That's not what *I* have seen over the course of this series. IMO, Dean Winchester knows better than any other character on this show what it means to sacrifice anything and everything in service to the mission. Just because the writers are too lazy to write something else for him besides a redux of  lessons he's learned very well already over the course of this series, doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or go happily along with them, especially when the "show" within the storytelling(and especially through the acting of JA), tells me otherwise.

 

I have often seen it questioned whether the writers and producers of this show have ever actually sat down and watched the entire series of this show. I now fully understand exactly why that question keeps coming up.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

Taking my reply to the all seasons thread.

[Aeryn13]

 

I count this as a Dean-centric episode compared to a more balanced story.  That's okay. "Just My Imagination" was a Sam story.

 

While I would totally count Just my Imagination as a Sam-episode, if I had to give this episode to someone it would be Casifer. Dean time-travelled but it wasn`t in any way focused on his character, either story-wise or even the dreaded emo. . 

 

I thought Defending your life back in Season 7? was utter crap but it was a legit Dean-ep. This one, not even if I squint.

 

 

It's not that Dean isn't motivated to stop the Darkness. But witnessing that kind of moment helps you put things in perspective.

 

How? Like you said, he felt useless but accomplished nothing on the mission.  And how does it help him to witness the heroics of other people? It`s not like he is a selfish coward who never sacrificed anything and needs that as a motivational kick in the ass. The only thing that accomplished for him was feeling more useless and downtrodden afterwards. Not exactly the kind of perspective change that makes for good storytelling.

[catrox14]

 

He watched a group of heroes make the ultimate sacrifice to win their war and help him.  It's not that Dean isn't motivated to stop the Darkness. But witnessing that kind of moment helps you put things in perspective.

 

What would Dean have seen there that gives him a perspective he didn't have before?

 

Dean has never been afraid to join a fight and often recklessly so. He's a damn soldier himself.  He's watched the world burn and He's seen his future soldier self and the future apocalypse.  He's watched Sam jump into the pit. He's been to Hell. He survived Purgatory for a year to save Cas. He's sacrificed himself to save Sam. He's willing to die to save humans from monsters. He was Death for a day.  

 

After watching the episode a couple of times I have a couple of different opinions than the first time I watched it.

 

IMO Dean's offer to learn how to use the Hand of God was two fold 1) To learn how to use it against Amara 2) to save Delphine and the others.  IMO he thought he could survive it because Cas would save him. He was so hopeful when he went on the mission. BTW,  I think he saw something in the light of Hand of God and that affected him too.

 

I think Dean was upset about all the people on the sub but I don't think that is what he was most upset about. I think Dean learning his literal best friend, to whom he told his big secret about Amara, was actually possessed by Lucifer but Dean never recognized that something was wrong was a huge blow. Also, he had hope that the answer to Amara lay in The Hand of God (heh) and it's now useless.  IMO, Dean was just done in by the futility of it all and the loss of hope.

[catrox14]

Saw this on Twitter and laughed a stupid amount
 

Steph's unicorn ‏@_stephbysteph Feb 17

imagining how was it for Casifer not getting inside the submarine lol #Supernatural #TheVessel

[pixelcat]

I just watched this episode yesterday, and it's interesting to read all the comments when it first aired.  I really like this episode, both for the look/era they chose, and how understated it is.  Delphine's acceptance of Dean as a Man of Letters, the crewman who reads Flash Gordon (and all he asks about is when the war will end, to know the fate of his friends and family), how calm the captain is and how he tells Delphine they'd never consider a surrender.  I'm a big fan of WWII-era styling.

Glad Lucifer!Cas is out of the bag, and I'm not worried in the least about Crowley.  I'm sure he's been through a LOT worse and still come out on top, he'll have something up his sleeve.  I do find it funny that Lucifer had him dress in something that's about as complete opposite from a suit as you can get, he looks like he's in Hawaii on vacation.  I really hope that the Winchesters put up some angel warding on the bunker to keep Lucifer out, although I wouldn't be surprised if he just didn't bother himself with them (at least for the moment) as they don't have a Hand of God that works, and apparently had no leads in the library.  I'd still be putting up angel warding EVERYWHERE though, if it were me.

Just because I'm all about the details, I decided to look a few things up.  There was no Gato-class submarine named the Bluefin (big surprise), however there WAS one named the Bluefish.  It fought in WWII in the Pacific, took down a number of Japanese ships before being retired and eventually sold for scrap in 1960.  Diesel-powered, had a crew of about 60 during peacetime (not sure if there'd be more or less during wartime).  Also it seems that most of the Gato-class submarines were named after fish or fish-related themes.

There are no brigs on modern day subs, so I would assume the same on WWII-era subs; if there is a need to lock someone down, they're put into an empty bunk room, so keeping Dean in the galley under guard seems like the wisest course of action.  What I really originally wanted to look up is how deep those submarines could dive, as the captain tells them to dive to maximum depth.  The page for Bluefish says the test depth was 300 feet, meaning normal "maximum depth" would be above that.  For some reason I pictured subs being able to dive much further than that, 300 seems like it'd be way too shallow to hide from ships on the surface.  It obviously was too shallow for Nazi necromancer ship of death.

Also want to say the submarine set looked amazing!

On 2/20/2016 at 2:26 PM, SueB said:

- Damn girl.Delphine was awesome. Very well acted. A great deal of character insight in a single episode. I could see a Supernatural Comics devoted to her exploits. Sort of like the Supernatural version of the Agents of Shield Agent Carter.

I am not really a comics fan but I would read the crap out of that!

I have to say, the ending shots were beautiful.  If you read carefully on the webpage Sam reads about the captain, it says there's a Bluefin memorial at the Veterans Memorial Park on the Arkansas River in Wichita, Kansas.  So I'm going to go with that's where Dean was at the end, to remember the crew of the Bluefin.  I liked how he was reluctant to talk to Sam about what happened because he hadn't fully processed it himself, telling him instead "story for another day".

Been listening to "Non, Je ne regrette rien" all morning, what a perfect song for Delphine.

[Dobian]

Just a great episode.  I'm a WWII buff and a sucker for submarine flicks, so this was right up my alley.  I loved Delphine and wish she wasn't just a one-off character.  Maybe she will show up again somehow.  I liked how Dean wasn't much help in explaining the future because he's not into baseball history (the Rangers in 1944, hahaha!) and had trouble getting his presidents straight.  Misha was great at channeling Pelegrino's Lucifer.  Just good stuff all around.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Me and Dean arelikethis when it comes to coffee in the morning.  True story: I drank a beer for breakfast while waiting for the coffee to perk this summer after camping in a torrential downpour and getting soaking wet and muddy.  I deserved it.  And that was way before noon.  And I am not apologizing.  :)  So, NOT COOL, SAM to use up all the coffee and not go out and get more.
• When Sam asked if Dean knew the Nazis's had a whole division devoted to archaeology, I was waiting for him to say, "Yeah.  I saw Raiders."
• I *liked* Delphine.  Ick. Gag - what she had to do undercover to get that Hand of God.  Bless.  Takes a strong woman.  I really admire her for that.  I'm with @Dobian, it'd be nice if she could come back somehow.
• Why were they so surprised that she was a Woman of Letters?  They knew Dorothy was a hunter back in the 1930's.  (Okay, not a "woman of letters" but closely associated with the Society.) And they knew Josie was to be inducted in 1958, and Eileen's mom was in the Irish Letters society before her death.  It was just a weird, kind of awkward segue to me.  
• I'm surprised Sam didn't catch on earlier with as hinky as Cas/Lucifer was acting.  I mean, seriously.  I guess Sam was just really focused on keeping Dean safe and then getting Dean back.  Okay.  I'll go with that one.  
• What was with Sam's worry about Dean time-traveling though?  Was it just because he thought Cas wasn't at full power?  Otherwise, it seemed odd.
• Oh yeah - hilarious that Lucifer got dumped in the ocean!  Lol.  Serves him right.
• I did not catch, the first time through last year, that the Nazis on the destroyer were necromancers.  I liked how they wove that into the story.  
• ETA: Did I miss something?  Last ep, Cas/Lucifer wasn't in, right?  Last we saw, he just left the bunker - and now he's deposed Crowley and has him chained up.  Did they show that scene and I don't remember it?
• oh, yeah - and Sam's French accent was horrible.  (Didn't they teach him that at Stanford?  Lol.  <---that was always the explanation in the early years.)

Edited November 1, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
I miss so much when I sleep-watch.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why were they so surprised that she was a Woman of Letters?  They knew Dorothy was a hunter back in the 1930's.  (Okay, not a "woman of letters" but closely associated with the Society.)

It's not that Dean and Sam were surprised that Delphine could be a Woman of Letters or that any woman could/should be but Dean didn't have the impression that the Men of Letters permitted it per se or encouraged it as a whole with the organization. Dean thought they were sexist.

Quote

DEAN: Yeah, and letting women join way back in the forties? I just never got the impression that they were so big on gender equality, you know, it's right there in the name.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not that Dean and Sam were surprised that Delphine could be a Woman of Letters or that any woman could/should be but Dean didn't have the impression that the Men of Letters permitted it per se or encouraged it as a whole with the organization. Dean thought they were sexist.

I think there was a misunderstanding there.  I didn't wonder why they were surprised that that she "could" be - as in not smart enough or something - but that she was at all (your 'permitted' to be, if you will).  Which, I thought, took into account the fact of the sexism of the era - which is why I pointed out Dorothy's non-traditional role even earlier than the 1940's.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Which, I thought, took into account the fact of the sexism of the era - which is why I pointed out Dorothy's non-traditional role even earlier than the 1940's.  

Meh, Dorothy was a hunter and she was unique. So I think for Dean and Sam she was not really a Man of Letters she just had to work with them. Mostly I think it was Robert Berens just making a comment about the Men of Letters via Dean.

[MysteryGuest]

But Dorothy wasn't a "Woman" of Letters, and I'm willing to bet they only tolerated her because of her father.  I think based on the knowledge the boys have of TMOL, their surprise that there was an actual female member as far back as 1940 was genuine.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Meh, Dorothy was a hunter and she was unique. So I think for Dean and Sam she was not really a Man of Letters she just had to work with them.

Just because she's the only one we've seen, doesn't mean she's unique and there weren't others.  I think Sam (don't know about Dean, but I'd say, yeah, Dean too) did consider her a "Woman of Letters" - as much as they considered Charlie as such.  

Quote

Mostly I think it was Robert Berens just making a comment about the Men of Letters via Dean.

Well, of course it was!  Doesn't make the conversation any less weird or awkward.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just because she's the only one we've seen, doesn't mean she's unique and there weren't others.  I think Sam (don't know about Dean, but I'd say, yeah, Dean too) did consider her a "Woman of Letters" - as much as they considered Charlie as such. 

Dorothy held great disdain for the MoL. She considered herself a hunter. Why would Dean or Sam disregard how Dorothy views herself? I don't think they would.  Dorothy thought Charlie was a secretary because she presumed the Men of Letters still didn't have women working for them in any capacity other than as a secretary during her time.

Excerpts from the transcript at  SuperWiki

Quote

JAMES HAGGERTY: [hangs up the phone]: We have a guest -- damn hunter. Frank's kid.

****************** Then later******************

SAM: No, we have to talk before anyone does anything, okay? Dorothy?

DOROTHY: Talk? Typical Men of Letters, standing around, having a nice, little chat with your noses buried in your books while your little secretary takes notes.

DEAN: We're hunters.

CHARLIE:And who are you calling a secretary?

DOROTHY: You're not a secretary? You're a Woman of Letters? W-- how long have I been out?

SAM: That's why we need to talk. Look, you've been gone for over 75 years. Now, according to our files, you came here to kill the wicked witch and then disappeared. What happened?

******************************************************

DOROTHY: Revisionist history. That's my father's way of trying to undo what had happened to me. But I knew the truth. When the witch came to our world, I became a hunter, and my father wrote those silly books.

 

I think it's fair to say between Dorothy's opinion, Cuthbert Sinclair later in s9 talking about how the Men of Letters were squares and it all died out before 1960, for Dean to think they were sexist in WW2. Sam made the best case it was WW2 so all hands on deck. I think it's also reasonable to think once WW2 was over, women doing missions like Delphine were booted back to being a secretary like all those Rosie the Riverter gals who were booted out of the workforce when the male soldiers came back home. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dorothy held great disdain for the MoL. She considered herself a hunter. Why would Dean or Sam disregard how Dorothy views herself? I don't think they would.  Dorothy thought Charlie was a secretary because she presumed the Men of Letters still didn't have women working for them in any capacity other than as a secretary during her time.

Excerpts from the transcript at  SuperWiki

I think it's fair to say between Dorothy's opinion, Cuthbert Sinclair later in s9 talking about how the Men of Letters were squares and it all died out before 1960, for Dean to think they were sexist in WW2. Sam made the best case it was WW2 so all hands on deck. I think it's also reasonable to think once WW2 was over, women doing missions like Delphine were booted back to being a secretary like all those Rosie the Riverter gals who were booted out of the workforce when the male soldiers came back home. 

I think we are talking around each other.  I believe in my original comment, I made the distinction that Dorothy was a hunter.  She may have considered herself a hunter, but like I said, I think Sam and Dean considered her a Woman of Letters (like Charlie.)  To them, that would be an additional honor - not to take away from being a hunter, imo.  Sam and Dean consider themselves both, after all, so I don't think that disregards how Dorothy viewed herself at all.  Sam even called Charlie a Woman of Letters at one time as an honorific.  So I really don't care that Dorothy thought she was a secretary.  Dorothy was not Sam and Dean.

As to the latter part of your post - that does not explain Josie, who was going to be  inducted in 1958 as a Woman of Letters.  

mileage vary, of course.  But this is my opinion that it was an awkward bit of exposition.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think we are talking around each other.  I believe in my original comment, I made the distinction that Dorothy was a hunter.  She may have considered herself a hunter, but like I said, I think Sam and Dean considered her a Woman of Letters (like Charlie.)  

I never disputed that Sam, Dean and Charlie see Charlie as a woman of letters. I'm speaking specifically of Dorothy and how Sam and Dean consider her. Given she self-identified as a hunter and she made it clear she didn't like the Men of Letters, I'm trying to fathom why  they would consider Dorothy a Woman of Letters? It would be kind of crappy and dismissive for them to assign her to a group she did not like and I don't think they would do that since she didn't see herself that way. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 2/24/2016 at 1:16 AM, SueB said:

That's the key tho.  I would think that if you are expecting disappointment, it's harder to see anything but.  

That reminds me of an old poem, "The Right Kind of People" by Edwin Markham.  http://www.literaryartsreview.com/2016/03/24/todays-poem-the-right-kind-of-people/

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never disputed that Sam, Dean and Charlie see Charlie as a woman of letters. I'm speaking specifically of Dorothy and how Sam and Dean consider her. Given she self-identified as a hunter and she made it clear she didn't like the Men of Letters, I'm trying to fathom why  they would consider Dorothy a Woman of Letters? It would be kind of crappy and dismissive for them to assign her to a group she did not like and I don't think they would do that since she didn't see herself that way. 

I understand what you are saying.  But I thought I addressed that.  I think it's less about how Dorothy viewed the MOL and more about how Sam and Dean view the MOL: they seem proud to be "legacies".   So, no - I don't think that Sam and Dean would think it was crappy and dismissive to consider Dorothy a Woman of Letters, especially since it seemed to me that thought it was an honor to call Charlie one.   I guess this is another one of those 'miles vary' things.  

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I understand what you are saying.  But I thought I addressed that.  I think it's less about how Dorothy viewed the MOL and more about how Sam and Dean view the MOL: they seem proud to be "legacies".   So, no - I don't think that Sam and Dean would think it was crappy and dismissive to consider Dorothy a Woman of Letters, especially since it seemed to me that thought it was an honor to call Charlie one.   I guess this is another one of those 'miles vary' things.  

I don't see them deciding she should be a Woman of Letters when she wouldn't have wanted it just because they take pride in it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see them deciding she should be a Woman of Letters when she wouldn't have wanted it just because they take pride in it.

Again, miles vary.  You have your opinion and I have mine.  

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Again, miles vary.  You have your opinion and I have mine.  

Obviously. And I'm not attempting to dissuade or change your opinion. I'm trying to understand it. Nothing more. Nothing less. Moving on!

Edited November 1, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Obviously. And I'm not attempting to dissuade or change your opinion. I'm trying to understand it. Nothing more. Nothing less. Moving on!

I think you and I have very different "listening" styles - which may be informing our perception of each other's comments (and unfortunately, not always for the better, it seems.)  FWIW, I didn't think you were trying to change my opinion.  However, in my 'listening style', someone simply restating their opinion (as it appeared to me what you were doing) multiple times does not translate to them actually trying to understand mine.   Or as you said in another thread:

Quote

If there is a question about a comment ask for clarification.

I didn't see a question in this comment:

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see them deciding she should be a Woman of Letters when she wouldn't have wanted it just because they take pride in it.

That's a statement.  Which is fine!  Really!  I'm not trying to "blame" you (or anyone) for any misunderstanding here.  I'm just trying to explain why I didn't offer any further exposition.  (It didn't seem to me that any more was needed or desired.)  

Edited November 1, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Spelling. But not Tori.

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think you and I have very different "listening" styles - which may be informing our perception of each other's comments (and unfortunately, not always for the better, it seems.)  FWIW, I didn't think you were trying to change my opinion.  However, in my 'listening style', someone simply restating their opinion (as it appeared to me what you were doing) multiple times does not translate to them actually trying to understand mine.   Or as you said in another thread:

 

Where is the issue here? My questions were seeking to understand and I was also including my opinions of what the boys would do.  We were starting to go in circles a bit. Once you said "mileage varies" I took the cue that you were ready to move on from the conversation. My apologies if my final remark left the impression I was trying to belabor the conversation when I was trying to do the opposite.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Where is the issue here?

Oh Dear.  I hope I did not offend you as that was honestly not my intention.  I was actually trying to offer an olive branch since there also seemed to be some misconception in the exchange in the Love Hurts thread.  I was merely trying to explain the "issue" here as I saw it: miscommunication due to different styles.  (See Also: Not Always For the Better-which this seems to be an excellent example!)  Nothing More.  Nothing Less.  

Like I said, I was just trying to explain myself.  (That IS allowed, even by me, right? <<--::ahem.  Sorry.  A little bit of snark has to creep in.  That's just the way I roll.  No Snark intended in the rest of this comment, fwiw.::)  And I wouldn't belabor this conversation either, except that you did ask a question, which I thought should be answered.  :)  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh Dear.  I hope I did not offend you as that was honestly not my intention.  I was actually trying to offer an olive branch since there also seemed to be some misconception in the exchange in the Love Hurts thread.  I was merely trying to explain the "issue" here as I saw it: miscommunication due to different styles.  (See Also: Not Always For the Better-which this seems to be an excellent example!)  Nothing More.  Nothing Less.  

Like I said, I was just trying to explain myself.  (That IS allowed, even by me, right? <<--::ahem.  Sorry.  A little bit of snark has to creep in.  That's just the way I roll.  No Snark intended in the rest of this comment, fwiw.::)  And I wouldn't belabor this conversation either, except that you did ask a question, which I thought should be answered.  :)  

I think I'm a little bit lost. Which question?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think I'm a little bit lost. Which question?

Lol.  If you mean, to which question was I referring above in my most recent comment, then...the one I quoted just previously in that comment.  You know - that sentence that ends with a "?".   It usually denotes a question.  (Sorry.  Dialing back the snark now.)  Ahem.  This one:

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Where is the issue here?

Or are you just messing with me now and going to respond with another question like, 'What are you talking about?'  ;)  

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Lol.  If you mean, to which question was I referring above in my most recent comment, then...the one I quoted just previously in that comment.  You know - that sentence that ends with a "?".   It usually denotes a question.  (Sorry.  Dialing back the snark now.)  Ahem.  This one:

Or are you just messing with me now and going to respond with another question like, 'What are you talking about?'  ;)  

Wow. Okay. Snark not helpful here. I was not messing with you. I wasn't sure if you meant a question in our conversation about Dorothy or some other question. I'm sorry for getting confused. I thought everything had been covered. So at this point I'm done with this.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Sorry about the snark then.  I couldn't tell if you were being snarky and so expecting a lighthearted answer in return.  Once again, I did not intend to offend you.  

Edited November 1, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Just can't seem to get it right, can I?

[bettername2come]

Fucking Nazis? Anyone else think Sam sounds ridiculously sexy saying La Femme de Lettre? Just me? Okay? Love the boys fighting about Sam drinking all the coffee. It's just so normal. I like those nice little moments of normal. I like that Sam is annoyed at Dean for wanting to time travel without him. Mostly protectiveness with just a hint of "Why does he get to time travel more than me?!" Dean cannot pull off a sailor's hat. I love when Dean tells the truth! And that he gets the Presidents right. My heart breaks a little at Sam telling Lucifer to use his soul. I love Misha/Lucifer lowering his voice back to Castiel levels as he taunts Sam. My heart breaks a little more at Sam trying to get away from Lucifer saying "No, no, stop." Can't believe Lucifer didn't notice Sam painting the sigils. I love that Sam asked Dean if he wanted to talk about what went down on the sub. Seriously, the amount of normal brotherly scenes this season is just wonderful . I didn't realize how much I missed them until now. 

[Hanahope]

Glad that the guys know about Lucifer in Cad finally, and interesting that Cas can peak through a former arch angel.  Lol at Lucifer in the ocean due to the sigil.

i almost feel sorry for Crowley.  What did Lucifer expect would happen while he was away?  Chaos with no one ruling hell?  Lucifer would be better served making Crowley second in command, Crowley will fight back.

The guys really should find out more about the Men of Letters in Europe and maybe elsewhere as well.

[Wayward Son]

On 11/1/2016 at 0:39 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• Why were they so surprised that she was a Woman of Letters?  They knew Dorothy was a hunter back in the 1930's.  (Okay, not a "woman of letters" but closely associated with the Society.) And they knew Josie was to be inducted in 1958, and Eileen's mom was in the Irish Letters society before her death.  It was just a weird, kind of awkward segue to me. 

I actually think the inclusion of a woman of letters in the 40s was a retcon by Berens. Prior to that the organisation was portrayed as rather sexist. There was Dorothey's surprise Charlie wasn't a secretary, there was Abbadon's surprise to learn Josie was a member and even the name itself is rather exclusionary. I also have this feeling at some point Josie talked about the difficulties of being the one, but I need to go digging through the transcripts to try and see if I'm right, or it's something my mind made up. 

 

ETA: Seems I must have imagined a scene with Josie mentioning she was the first. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[The Companion]

On 2/17/2016 at 9:32 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Damn, I was wondering when that woman of letters used the weapon and was going all glowy if that was going to be it... I'm surprised she didn't consider that actually.

Honestly, I would have assumed the opposite because: 1. It has been around too long to assume it was never touched, and 2. Lore indicated humans couldn't withstand the power for long which would have indicated to me that it had been used before. Honestly, I still don't think it would be unreasonable to wonder if it recharges. 

On 2/17/2016 at 9:50 PM, auntvi said:

I think that the "God's hand" destroyed both the sub and the German ship above them. Sam reads something about the ship being lost.

 

The sub was never found and the ship was, which is a sad detail to me because it probably implies the sub was completely destroyed. 

On 2/17/2016 at 10:12 PM, Ferniesfreckles said:

It was a good episode. Very suspenseful. There was a strong feeling of despair and inevitability, Claustrophobic for sure. Poor sailors.

 

Yes! This feeling that there is no escape. It was so good/sad/hard to watch. 

On 2/17/2016 at 10:35 PM, Wynne88 said:

It's interesting that so many of the recent episodes begin in the kitchen of the bunker.  I like it; it subtly emphasizes that they do have a stable place to call home without making a big deal of it.  Just as a small nitpick; I did notice that this week's coffee pot was totally different than the one they had last week.

 

Agree. There have been some really great touches that shorthand a feeling of home.

On 2/17/2016 at 10:45 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Edited to add:

Crowley's lucky I'm not Lucifer, because one word: spiders. Big ones. Just sayin'. And he wouldn't be allowed to harm a leg on their fuzzy little bodies either.

Remind me not to piss you off. Also, I can't help but think of the spiders in the Bad Place from the Good Place. *shudder*

On 2/18/2016 at 12:30 AM, SueB said:

Exactly.  Hence the comment about needing to be burned immediately if you want them to stay dead. 

 

This was EPIC IMO.  And FAN-F*CKING-TASTIC.  My initial reasons why I say this:

 

Season Arc critical moments:

1) Cas acknowledged his consent but that he can't thrown Luci out now and BARELY took control to stop him from killing Sam.

2) Luci doesn't want Hell and actually valued Crowley's opinion --- cause he's no dummy

3) Despite those who claim Dean is now useless after last week's discussion with Sam, it's clear that Lucifer knows he isn't. In fact Lucifer understand Dean can't harm Amara but feels the bond will be important.  And he was perfectly willing to kill Sam.  Of course I am confident BOTH brothers are needed -- it's the freakin' premise of the show.

4) Dean had a very powerful experience on that sub.  The willingness of the crew and Dalphine to die because it was the right thing? No hesitation, no doubts.  Just grim acceptance that lives would be lost for the greater good.  It's not that Dean hasn't always understood this and been more than happy to leap into the arms of Death if it saved someone.  No, he GETS personal sacrifice.  But he had to let the sub and crew die.  He had to accept that others dying to help him save the world was the right answer.  That's a bitter pill for Dean.  And he's seen it before, and it still crushed him... but this time was different IMO.  This time, he was prepared to kill Dalphine.  He was accepted the sacrifice was necessary.  The courage of those people needed to be honored and I think Dean GETS that.  Ultimately, I think it will help him accept if Sam or Cas needs to die.  That doesn't mean he will give up easily.  Just that when he TRULY sees no other option, he can accept it.  To not do so would dishonor all who have died in getting them to the point where they have a chance (when they eventually get one... and they WILL get one). So while this may seem like "character development" and not mytharc related --- I feel like this is just another way of showing us how Dean will get to a point in the future to make a decision we didn't think he would. 

 

Character

1) Oh Sam, how I love you with Cas.  He's so Team Destiel.  Friendship or otherwise, Sam knows how important Dean is to Cas and he respects that. 

2) Dean, Dean, Dean.  It hurts to watch you be in denial about Cas.  Is it that you think Cas would never say "yes" to Lucifer because it was wrong or because you think he wouldn't risk dying on you again?  IDK.  But his denial was so absolute.  I need a Team Free Will GROUP HUG.  Like STAT.

3) Cas... okay, so you think Luci can defeat Amara and you were willing to trade your power for his.  But did you know you couldn't kick him out or was this a surprise?

4) Crowley - Oh you'll survive, you Will E. Coyote you. And I agree with the poster above -- he actually respects Lucifer and woe to those disrespectful minions when Crowley is back in charge.

5) Dalphine - What a hero.  I want Supernatural: WWII edition as a comic book or something.  Great characters.

 

Production:

1) Per Jim Micheals, the submarine was a 90 (!) ft set that Wanek & company built just for this episode.  I swear, these guys swing for the fences every time.

2) Gorgeous set decorating. I WANT some of that stuff.  They need to auction it off for charity or something.

3) Excellent sub action scenes.  Movie-class IMO.  John Badham did very well and Nichol Baer again did a great job in editing.  I always like her episodes.

 

Story

1) Bobo Berens remains a favorite, along with Robbie Thompson.  I can't think of a single thing I would change.  I know I generally enjoy the show more than many but I felt like the script was spot on.  Compelling story, epic scope, long-term consequences.  Just marvelous.

 

So...yeah, I'm a fan of this one.

Yes to all of this 

On 2/18/2016 at 6:20 AM, Trisan said:

I was quite skeptical at first but damn, Misha's portrayal of Lucifer was spot-on in this one ! 

 

Oh, and Sue, as a French guy, just a quick nitpick about your post : it's Delphine, not Dalphine ! 😉

Otherwise totally agree with your points ! 

 

It's funny though, how Delphine seems to be the go-to name for French women, between that and Orphan Black ! ^^

You really nailed it.

Also, it's less go-to than the French woman in any story set in Louisiana. I have only known one Desiree, y'all. I swear. 😆

On 2/22/2016 at 9:35 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee.

 

Another thing that could've been added - "Sam forgot the pie" (which in Deanville is right up there with drinking all of the coffee.)

Oh this is bringing cake and claiming it is the same levels of bad. Lol.

 

On 10/31/2016 at 7:51 PM, catrox14 said:

It's not that Dean and Sam were surprised that Delphine could be a Woman of Letters or that any woman could/should be but Dean didn't have the impression that the Men of Letters permitted it per se or encouraged it as a whole with the organization. Dean thought they were sexist.

I did love the way Dean said cool after talking about Rosie the Riveter. It was a nice moment.

 

This episode was beautiful and compelling and heartbreaking. Really one of the best episodes. It reminded me of the Doctor Who time travel episodes where something can't be changed. It makes for a really amazing story when done right.

Yet another interesting woman. I loved Delphine. There have been some really great characters this season. 

I actually enjoyed the Lucifer reveal. He just got sick of pretending. And the way Dean immediately reacted when Sam yelled it wasn't Castiel. 

Dean's distress was really hard to watch. JA really is amazing.