S07.E12: Postcards From The Edge

[formerlyfreedom]

When his experience in the Phoenix stone leads him to do the unthinkable, Damon finds himself without a care in the world, spiraling out of control and under the influence of a dangerous and reckless Julian. Refusing to give up on his brother, Stefan attempts to reason with Damon only to uncover the devastating reason for his descent. Elsewhere, Caroline begins having some dangerous side effects as a result of her supernatural pregnancy and is forced to turn to Valerie for help. Meanwhile, Bonnie, Nora and Mary Louise attempt to track down a ruthless vampire hunter named Rayna after they suspect that she has reemerged.

 

 

[formerlyfreedom]

This is airing Thursday, 2/11/2016, in Canada. Enter at your own risk!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l27hPsF908Q

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip:

[PinkRibbons]

Holy shit that girl playing Rayna looks like Nina Dobrev. Deeply unsettling -- nice move, casting department.

 

I don't remember -- did Caroline show any overt vampire powers in previous flash-forwards? Because ever since the whole "Mystic-Falls-Magic-Free-Zone" thing I've been thinking that Caroline would be the easiest of them all to rehumanize; all they really have to do is get her breathing again after the vampire blood magic leaves her. Which is why I find it weird that she's desiccating -- shouldn't she be losing her vampirey powers instead, being short of breath, etc?

[grandemocha]

So the babies are siphoning Caroline's magic vampire blood..I get the show is trying to set this up like we should be concerned about it, but Caroline is clearly still a vampire in the flash forward, so I don't really care all that much. 

 

 

I don't remember -- did Caroline show any overt vampire powers in previous flash-forwards?

She got stabbed through the chest with a big wooden pike/stake, then she collapsed, but she clearly healed since she was fine when Matt let her out of that box. A normal human would've been dead instantly.

Edited February 12, 2016 by grandemocha

[Artsda]

Figured the lighting the casket on fire was just a plot device to get rid of Damon's celibacy. I'm glad for that.

And wow the girl at the end looked like Elena.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Are we really truly finally rid of Julian? YAY! He was too much like Klaus for my taste (in both looks and attitude). Where is Beau? I wonder how he and Nora will take the news. Obviously Mary Louise will be a drama queen about it and cling to Nora even more. I was disappointed that Nora softened toward Mary Louise at the end of the episode. You're fine without her, Nora. Be free!

 

Even though I know I should feel bad for cat killer Cooper, I laughed when I saw Damon was up to his old lying in the middle of the road trick again. When he said he needed a ride and they cut to Cooper driving him, I was totally surprised that Damon hadn't killed him. I thought huh, maybe Damon is just going to be self-flagellating instead of taking his rage out on other people. But nope, killed Cooper while he was driving, which seemed like a dumb idea. I guess it makes sense though since Damon was all emo with his "I want to feel all the feels" this week.

 

I was totally cracking up when Nora described Rayna the huntress: "She was spelled to be a vampire hunter by a shamans. They created that sword for her and imbued her with extraordinary strength." Let me guess - she also had to go out into the desert and do the hokey pokey? Could they make her description any more Buffy?

 

If it weren't for the flash forward where we know Caroline and the twins are alive, I would be afraid that this whole "babies siphoning Caroline's magic" business would lead to Caroline going all Darla style and sacrificing herself so the babies could live.

 

So now we know that Matt was coerced into helping the huntress lure Stefan and Damon to the tv station in the future. He didn't seem that conflicted or upset about doing it though.

 

I could not believe how much that girl looked like Nina Dobrev. I don't get what happened when Enzo burned Rayna's body though. Was he just burning away the old body to let the young version out, kind of like a butterfly emerging from a chrysalis? Or unto every generation a slayer is born out of the ashes of the previous one like a phoenix thanks to the phoenix stone?

 

The girl who hooked up with Damon also had some resemblance to Elena too (definitely not as strong as the new naked Rayna) which made me think that when Damon was staring at her, he was deciding if she looked enough like Elena to sleep with. I hope she is just a fling because I am not interested in seeing her become a recurring character.

 

Dear show, you have got to cool it with the music and learn what constitutes a proper sound mix. I had to rewind the beginning of the Rayna burning scene three times to hear what Enzo was saying because the music was TOO BLOODY LOUD. If Enzo sent the fake huntress postcards to the heretics so that they would lead him to the real Rayna, what did Bonnie and Nora use to track her with their locator spell? I assumed they used the postcard because she had touched it, but if Enzo sent the postcards then how exactly where they tracking her? Are Bonnie and Nora so powerful together that all they need is a name to locate someone now?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Yes! I remember Bonnie putting away the sword after the spell. Thank goodness you have a better memory than I do!

[Primetimer]

You've got questions? Yeah, well, some of us have real problems, jerk.

Read the story

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I'm glad Julian is finally dead!

Stefan crying is always heartbreaking to me, he makes me cry too!

Even beat to hell and sporting a bloody nose, Damon looks gorgeous! I got confused for a bit as to who Damon was kissing at the end - I thought she was the huntress but then Enzo did his Phoenix rising from the ashes thing and there was the huntress, I guess. So Damon is just making out with the random fight club girl, right?

[TigerLynx]

Apparently, Julian didn't get the memo.  Trying to kill Damon is the one thing that is guaranteed to get Stefan angry enough to kill you.

 

I'm glad Julian is dead, but they could have killed him like this a hundred times over already.

 

Up until this season I thought Matt was boring and spineless.  He is finally interesting.

 

Damon, Bonnie, and Alaric are never going to go on a road trip together are they?  Is Damon going to be allowed to have any scenes with Bonnie that last longer than two seconds?

[RachelKM]

I'm confused as to what Enzo was trying to accomplish. Did he want the huntress to go after Julian... was it just random fuckery?

 

Also, somehow he seemed to know about the huntress and how to ...er... phoenix her?  This is despite having only minimal time with Lily and not having had time to learn about the huntress from her and then spending some 70-80 years of his vampire life in the custody of the Augustines.  Which only goes to prove how dumb/insular/self-absorbed the Salvatores are.  They don't know about the Originals, they don't know any of their own lore, they essentially know nothing about vampires who are not themselves and their immediate  circle after 150 years.  But Enzo learns all this in his 25 odd years of independent vampire life, possibly only in the last 2.

 

Or did he do that by accident?  Which, is possible, but he still found out shit tons more about the huntress on his own than the Salvatores did.

Edited February 13, 2016 by RachelKM

[GaT]

Julian had better be dead for real & not just dead for now. Show, please send Enzo, all the vampires currently living in Mystic Falls, & Lilly's "family" to the same place.

[Couver]

RachelKM

 

I thought the same thing about Enzo. I hope we get some insight into how he knew all this. I guess we still have no idea about the group Matt called to get him. Maybe they are a group that has been looking for the huntress themselves or worship her or something.

 

I liked the connection between the phoenix stone and the huntress being reborn through fire. But the parallels with Buffy were just too much. I know Plec adores BTVS but come on. Just drop the huntress moniker and call her a slayer. Given the phoenixes ties to resurrection and rebirth I think Elena has an easy way back at the end of this season.

 

These shamans did a way better job than the witches who made the 5.

 

I see Bonnie is again getting the shortened of the stick in the love department. They do the bare minimum for her there. Bozo is clearly not going to get much development. And I'd be fine with that if they continue to develop the friendship with Nora. Which is nice. But I won't hold my breath.

 

Matt/Zach is looking really good in those flash forwards. But I have no interest in cop girlfriend.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Stefan started stabbing Julian, I was afraid he was just putting him back in the stupid phoenix stone and that we would end up seeing him AGAIN, so I was really glad to see he used a stake and Julian started desiccating. He was even more boring as a villain than Lily was so I never want to see him again.

 

 

 

I got confused for a bit as to who Damon was kissing at the end - I thought she was the huntress but then Enzo did his Phoenix rising from the ashes thing and there was the huntress, I guess. So Damon is just making out with the random fight club girl, right?

Yes, two different girls. Damon hooked up with the fight club girl, who is different from the huntress girl who Enzo burned into being.

 

I am still not clear on why Enzo did whatever he did to make the huntress young again (then again, I don't know if I've ever understood any of Enzo's motives, aside from "make Stefan miserable"). I am even less clear on how Enzo knew how to do this. Ha, but I totally agree that it's hilarious/bewildering/ridiculous that Damon and Stefan have been vampires much longer and knew nothing about the huntress until the heretics mentioned her and then still learned absolutely nothing about her. I mean, in reality I know that's because the writers just made her up so there was nothing to know until now, and I realize that they don't have a Giles to do research for them (unless you count Alaric, sort of), but it does make Damon and Stefan seem like they have their heads up their asses about anything vampire or supernatural related. I mean, if they had just said, "Oh, yeah, we heard stories about this huntress but we thought it was just the vampire version of the boogeyman to scare people," then at least they would sound like they had some sort of awareness. as opposed to "The who now?"

 

The last we saw of Enzo, Matt had him kidnapped by those mysterious guys. Now he just shows up and we have no idea if those guys sent him on this mission or if he escaped and is doing this on his own or what.

Edited February 13, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[immortalfrieza]

If it weren't for the flash forward where we know Caroline and the twins are alive, I would be afraid that this whole "babies siphoning Caroline's magic" business would lead to Caroline going all Darla style and sacrificing herself so the babies could live.

Which is why I hate the flash forwards and flash forwards in general. We already know that the entire Mystic Falls crew including Elena (somehow) and the magic babies are going to survive the next 3 years except maybe the remaining heretics, so it kills the suspense entirely whenever they try to act like any of these people are in danger during the modern day episodes and just insults the intelligence of the audience. They should have just had the storyline as it is but removed the flash forwards and it would have been a lot more effective.

 

 

I could not believe how much that girl looked like Nina Dobrev. I don't get what happened when Enzo burned Rayna's body though. Was he just burning away the old body to let the young version out, kind of like a butterfly emerging from a chrysalis? Or unto every generation a slayer is born out of the ashes of the previous one like a phoenix thanks to the phoenix stone?

I figure the huntress just resurrects from the dead as however old she was when she had the spell cast on her every time someone kills her, which is how she's lived so long, though obviously it doesn't work if she kills herself otherwise she'd do that every couple decades to keep herself young rather than become an psycho old lady. Of course, this means that we have yet another invincible antagonist the Mystic Falls group have to spend an entire season trying to get rid of and probably could incredibly easily if they were remotely intelligent about it, just like almost every antagonist on this show since Klaus. Like killing her and having the remaining heretics siphon all of whatever magic keeps her resurrecting, or killing her and dumping her body in an airtight box in the ocean before she can resurrect for instance.

 

    I thought the same thing about Enzo. I hope we get some insight into how he knew all this. I guess we still have no idea about the group Matt called to get him. Maybe they are a group that has been looking for the huntress themselves or worship her or something.

I just hope the answer isn't something really contrived and stupid, which with the writers this show has it will be. If Enzo says something akin to "hello Mother/sister/second cousin twice removed" in the very next scene with the two of them are I will completely lose any faith in the writers of this show.

Edited February 13, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[2Old2BAFangirl]

***Yes, two different girls. Damon hooked up with the fight club girl, who is different from the huntress girl who Enzo burned into being.****

I can't make the quote option work correctly on my phone - thank you for clearing that up for me!!

That'll teach me to look at my Twitter that close to the end of the show!!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It was easy to mix them up since fight club girl was in dark rooms every time we saw her (at the bar, in the actual fight club room, and at the house with Damon) while the huntress girl was in a smoke filled room. They both have dark hair and resemble Elena (although I think the huntress girl resembles Elena more strongly).

[GaT]

Am I the only one who doesn't see this strong resemblance to Nina Dobrev? 

I didn't either. Until I came here & read the comments, it never even occurred to me.

 

Which is why I hate the flash forwards and flash forwards in general. We already know that the entire Mystic Falls crew including Elena (somehow) and the magic babies are going to survive the next 3 years except maybe the remaining heretics,

I'm not sure of this. I think it's going to end up something stupid like Elena's soul is in somebody else's (the huntress?) body, or they just screwed up when they showed Damon waking up.

[HunterHunted]

Phoenix stone. Phoenix sword. Phoenix slayer?

What is Enzo's purpose on this show?

[immortalfrieza]

I'm not sure of this. I think it's going to end up something stupid like Elena's soul is in somebody else's (the huntress?) body, or they just screwed up when they showed Damon waking up.

If the writers are actually going to stick with this it's definitely a case of them forgetting or ignoring their own writing. Elena is supposed to be under a spell that will keep her sleeping and exactly as she was the moment it was cast until Bonnie dies, immolation shouldn't be considered exempt from this. The greatest danger that Elena should be able to ever face is ending up stuck in her coffin somewhere she can neither get out nor anybody who cares knows where she is, like sealed in some crypt or at the bottom of the ocean.

[Couver]

Shouldn't one of the heretics be able to drain the spell Kai put on Elena anyway? Thus saving both Elena and Bonnie? I know he made it so no magic could tamper with it but if they drain it all shouldn't it come undone?

 

I did lol that Damon was still at Tyler's house when had only a day or so earlier beat him and left him for dead.

[festivus]

Julian is actually dead? Say what now? I was literally yelling at my tv for someone to actually kill someone when they said they were going to do it. Hail Caesar.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was too! Similarly, when Damon was going to let Julian kill him, I was yelling, "Don't go out like a punk!" I get that he's doing his whole self-flagellating "I deserve to die" guilt trip, but if you're that determined to die, just take off your ring and walk out in the sun. But don't let that jackass Julian have the satisfaction of killing you!

[immortalfrieza]

Shouldn't one of the heretics be able to drain the spell Kai put on Elena anyway? Thus saving both Elena and Bonnie? I know he made it so no magic could tamper with it but if they drain it all shouldn't it come undone?

Out of everything that's the main reason I don't like the heretics. Their existence and the fact that some of them side with the Mystic Falls group means that all magical threats and obstacles from now until their end will have them and their siphoner powers as a solution that the crew will be too stupid to use until it's most dramatically convenient, like this huntress problem.

 

I did lol that Damon was still at Tyler's house when had only a day or so earlier beat him and left him for dead.

Speaking of which, what the hell happened to Tyler? He's either got a massive concussion or dead, or he's in a hospital in a coma somewhere because otherwise I can't imagine he wouldn't have told everybody about what Damon did or just called him up and told him if it didn't do anything as burning her shouldn't have.

Edited February 14, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[ByTor]

But the parallels with Buffy were just too much.

Wasn't there even another hellmouth somewhere in Ohio?

[miss-vanilla]

It's hard to comment on whether on not these last few episodes are good or not, since i'm not convinced everything we are seeing is "REAL".

If it is all real, then I would have to say that these episodes were in fact awful and so badly written that I'm not sure that I will continue to watch, or it's not real, and this is all some clever twist with the phoenix stone mythology and I will think theses writers are awesome again.

 

Stefan IMO, continues to miss the point with his brother. Some of his dialogue to Damon has been outrageous considering the circumstances, and I'm not sure everything we are seeing with him and his interactions with Damon are real, as in the stone is still messing with him. Caroline made the point while writing in her diary, that Stefan is bouncing back from his experience in the stone. WHY? HOW? are we sure? hasn't the stone been trying get Stefan to the point where he will let Damon go for good? He still hasn't done that yet, he chose to blame Julian for all this misery, and rightly so, but he still excuses Damons' actions and more importantly his own in the events leading up to this point in the story. Stefans reckless revenge mission against Julian is what got both boys caught in the stone, he has wanted Julian dead for most of the season, so this revelation that he wanted Julian dead this time around is not new, but the motive was. This time it was about Damon.

 

The writers made a big show of promoting Damons' hell, even centering a whole episode around it, but they were so much more secretive about exactly how Stefans' hell would play out, only telling us that Stefans' hellscape would be played out rather differently on screen. I think this is it.

I hope so, because it would explain so many things in my mind.

For instance, anyone else think that it is weird that none of the main cast other than Tyler has interacted with Damon since he was released from the stone?

And now Tyler is MIA? we know he isn't dead, so where is he? was he even real?

 

Moving on, I like that Julian is now dead, and I don't even care that Stefan "cheated" to kill him, yay for Stefan. Somebody has woken PW up, since his acting has been way better lately, and I enjoyed his performance in the last two episodes.

Ian gets loads of attention for his looks, always has, but I sometimes think his acting gets overlooked because of that, and because his character is snarky etc, but IS has shown he has some great range.

 

Nora and Bonnie were great, I loved their easy bitchy banter, the other one can just leave. I don't care.

The huntress Rayna has finally arrived in a baptism of fire, I guess that why her stone is named the Phoenix stone. I'm still not 100% sure what the point of the stone is yet for the those who are unfortunate enough to get trapped in it.

 

Great to see Enzo again. I can't help it, I love him.

 

Caroline and the Gemini siphoning baby twins story is just dragging the whole show down for me in a great big pile of suck, and dragging Alaric down with it. I can't wait for it to be just done with. 

 

The least said about Matt these days the better.

[slayer2]

Wasn't there even another hellmouth somewhere in Ohio?

Seattle. Hey remember that time Angel got dropped to the bottom of the ocean while everyone moved one without hi--- *ahem, I mean *Stefan, when Stefan got dropped to--- This show is getting worse, if they would just give people storylines they were interested in this wouldn't happen. Stop trying to Buffyverse Plec, Whedon you are not!

Edited February 14, 2016 by slayer2

[Cattitude]

I have to say this episode was better than the previous two.

I like the Stefan and Damon brother bond stuff

and DING DONG Julian is DEAD!

 

I was a little upset that while self destructive Damon didn't get to show sadness at the death of Elena like he did end of season 3. While I know Stefan would be upset since he supposed to be in love with Carline I thought he got a little OTT upset at her death way more than she was about him dying in Season 5. I felt cheated out of Damon's grief. Elena got self destructive when she though Damon was dead but we got her grief too.

Something that really took me out of Stefan's car grief scene was he was thrashing and banging but didn't break anything. we know out of control vampires break stuff. That steering wheel should have been toast.

 

So if Jo's baby are like Kia why is no one worried about their personalities? Every siphon witch we've know of are supposed to be psycho/evil. I know they are trying to rehab Valerie now but for sure they are at least vengeful. Seems like a cruel twist for poor Alaric.

 

Enzo hates Julian, didn't know Damon and Stefan had gone into the phoenix stone too, he also didn't know Stefan just killed Julian so I think Enzo rebirthed the hunter to kill Julian.

[ByTor]

Seattle.

Is Seattle from the comics? I could have sworn from the show Ohio...it's Cleveland.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellmouth_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)

 

The location of the second Hellmouth is first suggested in the episode "The Wish". In an alternative timeline, Giles mentions that "there is a lot of demonic activity in Cleveland", where Buffy is located due to the effects of Cordelia's wish.

After the final battle in "Chosen", and the characters express relief that their struggle is finally over, Giles adds that "there's another one in Cleveland". In the Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight comic "No Future For You", Giles refers to Cleveland, where Faith is stationed, as a "second-rate Hellmouth". In Angel: After the Fall, the Senior Partners express interest in purchasing property in Cleveland, following the destruction of the Sunnydale Hellmouth.

Edited February 15, 2016 by ByTor

[RachelKM]

So if Jo's baby are like Kia why is no one worried about their personalities? Every siphon witch we've know of are supposed to be psycho/evil. I know they are trying to rehab Valerie now but for sure they are at least vengeful. Seems like a cruel twist for poor Alaric.

 

Enzo hates Julian, didn't know Damon and Stefan had gone into the phoenix stone too, he also didn't know Stefan just killed Julian so I think Enzo rebirthed the hunter to kill Julian.

I don't actually think anything has told us that all siphon witches are evil or psycho.  We've only been told that they were considered abominations and rejected by their covens.   And of course , the heretics were introduced as psychos and super murdery.  It's just not clear how much of that is a combination being vampires with minimal regard for humans and a lot of Julian (FINALLY DEAD) and (maybe) Lily's coaching after they came together a as a "family."  Since there, they haven't actually seemed universally psycho.  Valerie seems to be (maybe righteously) angry, but has come around, Nora too.  Mary Louise is just an asshole of epic proportions which seems to stem from being a shitty person, but not necessarily psychotic.  

 

As to Enzo's plan, having the huntress kill Julian is the only thing I could come up with too.  I just don't really see how that is good plan for him since she's about killing vampires generally... isn't she? I mean I know she has an extra focus on those she's already marked/trapped with the phoenix sword/stone.  But she must seek them in the first place to have put them there.  So, that seems like a pretty dangerous weapon to unleash with a high probability of unintended consequences. 

 

Edited because her name is Mary Louise. I don't much care for her, but I should get her name right.

Edited February 15, 2016 by RachelKM

[bobbyjoe]

Hey, Julian's dead, so now who will speak for us in phony pompous Klaus speak?

 

[british Accent]  I have a cunning [dramatic pause] plan.  It is the most [dramatic pause] cunning [dramatic pause] plan anyone has ever [dramatic pause] had.  Now I am going to [dramatic pause] kill you.  Because, you see, I have a [dramatic pause] cunning plan.

 

I'm not too worried.  Plec will probably have us a new pompous, melo-dramtically pausing British villain within the next two episodes.

[RachelKM]

Am I the only one who missed the memo on how Mary Louise became the "bad" heretic? She sided against Valerie because Valerie killed Oscar, their brother and Nora sided with Valerie because Julian killed Valerie's foetus. It seemed pretty fair to me, as far as psycho murderous witch-vampire families went. And Nora was gleefully murdering police cadets and taking selfies with dead children not too long ago. At what point did she become the "good" heretic? Because she flirted with Bonnie on the rebound? Valerie murdered Oscar in cold blood but somehow the fact she did it for some convoluted reason involving a baby she miscarried over a century ago makes it OK? 

I don't know how anyone else feels, but for the most part, I just view all the heretics as fairly standard murdery vampires. It appears that they were encouraged in viewing humans as blood bag/cat toys by Julian and Lily.  But they don't seem more psychotic than any other vamps we've met, other than non-ripper Stefan, Anna, and (I think) Pearl.  Most of them have been less than inclined to view humans as equals. We know little about the heretics pre-vamp and Nora and Valerie seemed to have calmed down away from Julian and Lily.

 

My feelings about Mary Louise is stem from the fact that she seems to be a volatile, hyper-reactive asshole in all regards and sided with Julian who was himself not particularly inclined to hide what an asshole he was.  Most of what we've seen of her has been her being a jealous, possessive jerk to Nora and flippant, rude asshole to everyone else not part of there little heretic group.  And assuming Valerie made up Julian causing her to lose her baby was sort of shitty. When I called her a an asshole, that was to what I was referring.  As I said, she doesn't seem particularly psychotic as compared to other vampires anymore than any other heretic. 

 

Edit... because Mary Louise, again, some more.

Edited February 15, 2016 by RachelKM

[Bort]

I'm starting to think that maybe this entire season might be like Bobby Ewing in the shower -- one great big giant fantasy. Mostly because I don't think the writers would torch Elena. I expect them to cling to their Nina-might-come-back-at-least-for-the-finale pipe dream.

[slayer2]

Is Seattle from the comics? I could have sworn from the show Ohio...it's Cleveland.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellmouth_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)

 

Ah! Touche! I was getting Faith's ziplining confused with Max chilling out on the Space Needle in Dark Angel. So now this show is stealing the hellmouth concept too?

[RachelKM]

Well, we the audience have the benefit of flashbacks so we know Valerie's telling the truth. Otherwise, there isn't much by way of overwhelming evidence that she is. What there's evidence of though, is that she killed Oscar, who just wanted to be left alone - when she could have done like Oscar did and also left their little group. It just seemed unfair, to me, that Mary Louise was condemned simply because she chose to side with Julian who - like you said, was a psychotic guy but nice to his wife and kids otherwise - over Valerie who both Nora and Mary Louise seemed to equally dislike /fear.

Was Nora nice to anyone outside the heretic group before Lily's death split them apart? Apart from the bargirl she first flirted with then made a meal of, I don't remember her caring for anyone outside their group until Bonnie. And that didn't stop her from choking Matt to death.

Plus I couldn't help seeing eye to eye with Mary Louise when she said that Valerie revealed her century long tragedy in a way that won her a lot of sympathy from Stefan. Considering that she 'got' him in the flash forward, it looks like Mary Louise was right.

All of them had the benefit of seeing Valerie beaten at the time and she was the first of the heretics to turn as a consequence of trying to commit suicide at the time. They lived together for a century plus (granted a portion of that as desiccated) she should know Valerie at least a little bit.  And assuming a person is lying about a miscarriage is pretty crappy, more so because to me it seemed less like Mary Louise actually thought she was lying as opposed to just didn't want to believe it of Julian.

 

You seem determined to make more of my dislike of Mary Louise than it is and likewise more of my minimal defense of all of the heretics (including Mary Louise) than it was.  I find her to be a jerk even to those for whom she supposedly cares.  She's jealous and obnoxious.  My original post was more about pointing out that we actually don't know that siphons are inherently psychopaths.  We know nothing about them pre-vampirism other that they were shunned.  But they as a group do not seem more murdery than many other vampires we've met. Kai was decidedly sociopathic.  Valerie and Nora have shown that they are not that, whatever they are.  Mary Louise, likewise, though an asshole does not seem to be more murdery than other non-heretic vampires we've seen. 

[ByTor]

Ah! Touche! I was getting Faith's ziplining confused with Max chilling out on the Space Needle in Dark Angel. So now this show is stealing the hellmouth concept too?

I didn't think so, but your guess is as good as mine :)

[RachelKM]

No, don't take it personally. I'm more reflecting on what the show seems to be saying about the heretics and none of it makes sense/ or is done so badly that I can't buy what they're selling. The show's telegraphing to me that I'm supposed to dislike Mary Louise more than Nora and Valerie and frankly, I can't seem to find any objective reason to think so besides the "yeah, that's what the viewer should feel". Pretty much the same way the show repeatedly has their "good guys" behave in the same heinous manner as the "bad guys" but somehow we're supposed to be on the good guys' side. Like Matt was spilling some home truths to Bonnie about Nora and he was spot on in saying that it was wrong and dangerous for Bonnie to invite her - but it's Matt that's made out to be the over-reacting person there. Similarly, Valerie's self-confessed murder of Oscar is hardly given a batted eyelash in the whole matter - even though on a purely relative scale, the other heretic siblings should have been more horrified about that than the alleged forced abortion of her unborn child.   

 

 

Like the claim that it's particularly crappy about assuming Valerie was lying about a miscarriage - but she had been lying about not having that miscarriage for over a hundred years. She obviously gave them a convincing story about what happened to her - also a lie. Why should they suddenly believe that she was lying all along? And if she was... how does that make anything she says going forward more trustworthy? That kind of argument would be more convincing if she were lying about being raped. She's a psychotic murderess that her own fellow heretics are afraid of. She killed her own "adopted" brother when he got in her way... But lying about a miscarriage is the line she's not going to cross? 

I agree about Oscar,  I too was surprised that her hatred of Julian, however honestly come by, was sufficient justification to the family for her killing him.

 

But Valerie did not lie about what happened to her, Julian did and she never contradicted it.  He brought her to the boat beaten and bleeding and said she was attacked.  Lily healed her with his blood and Valerie thereafter tried to kill herself.  We've never seen anything showing Valerie saying what happened to her.  So yeah, she didn't tell them for 100 plus years.  But it seemed that in that family, speaking against Julian was a to risk being abandoned and once he was in the stone, what would have been the point? She was spurred into action by the suddenly real possibility of freeing him.

 

Do I like Valerie or Nora? Not much. I just find them less annoying than Mary Louise who, as I've said, has a shitty attitude generally.  Her siding with Julian and not believing Valerie (which again seemed more about believing Julian that actually thinking that Valerie was lying) is just an added annoyance. 

Edited February 15, 2016 by RachelKM

[miss-vanilla]

No, don't take it personally. I'm more reflecting on what the show seems to be saying about the heretics and none of it makes sense/ or is done so badly that I can't buy what they're selling. The show's telegraphing to me that I'm supposed to dislike Mary Louise more than Nora and Valerie and frankly, I can't seem to find any objective reason to think so besides the "yeah, that's what the viewer should feel". Pretty much the same way the show repeatedly has their "good guys" behave in the same heinous manner as the "bad guys" but somehow we're supposed to be on the good guys' side. Like Matt was spilling some home truths to Bonnie about Nora and he was spot on in saying that it was wrong and dangerous for Bonnie to invite her - but it's Matt that's made out to be the over-reacting person there. Similarly, Valerie's self-confessed murder of Oscar is hardly given a batted eyelash in the whole matter - even though on a purely relative scale, the other heretic siblings should have been more horrified about that than the alleged forced abortion of her unborn child.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway... like I said already, not to rub too fine a point in it. The show's logic has always been badly done so I'm not surprised that it's botched this as well.

Fundamentally I agree with this assessment. This show is great at trying to make us root for certain characters whilst showing us that actually, they are just as much of an ass as everyone else, which was my entire problem with how this show writes Stefan, and continues to write him, hence all the huge fan debates over the years.

This show writes ALL of it's mains as villains, whilst in the same breath promotes them as the HEROES. They are not. I can live with that premise and still enjoy the show, but I hate the preachy moralistic vibe they try and impose on the story. It's laughable actually, since the moral code is not all that consistent, hence your examples.

 

I hated Julian, but objectively he is no worse that the Salvatores if we really think about it, but the show is about the Salvatores. We know more about them and naturally root for them both or choose a brother we prefer more, but again, objectively, neither one is  better than the other, but this whole narrative is trying to convince the audience otherwise.

Sorry, I didn't buy it back in the day, and I still don't buy it now, no matter how they try and retcon the past. 

[immortalfrieza]

Good point. It was never made quite clear just why the Gemini hated/feared siphoners so much. The heretics were all cast out before they even became vampires simply for being one (Nora & ML also had the added reason of being gay in the 20th century), and Kai & Jo weren't supposed to merge and become the new leader (which was their birthright) because he was one. Is it a case of self-fulfilling prophecy (you treat them like monsters and they become monsters) or is there more to this that will be revealed? Because honest to god, in the flashforward those twins looked hella creepy to me!

Siphoners being inherently or at least very generally psycho is the only explanation that would make any sense, considering that the ability to steal magic from witches and sustained spells should make Siphoners the most powerful witches on the planet and thus loved by the Gemini coven rather than hated. I mean, all the Gemini coven would have to do is let the siphoner take most of the magic from every member of the coven and they would have basically a physical god in their corner able to do just about anything they could want, even if the draining does hurt like a bitch. Then again, making sense has never been the forte of the writers of this show, why start now?

[RachelKM]

Siphoners being inherently or at least very generally psycho is the only explanation that would make any sense, considering that the ability to steal magic from witches and sustained spells should make Siphoners the most powerful witches on the planet and thus loved by the Gemini coven rather than hated. I mean, all the Gemini coven would have to do is let the siphoner take most of the magic from every member of the coven and they would have basically a physical god in their corner able to do just about anything they could want, even if the draining does hurt like a bitch. Then again, making sense has never been the forte of the writers of this show, why start now?

I'm not sure about that.  I'm not sure witches would be thrilled to have their powers regularly siphoned.  Moreover, as depicted on this show (and sometimes the Originals too) witches are generally hypocritical assholes.  I could see them shunning siphons on the basis of them being "abominations" merely for 1) not having their own powers and 2) having the ability to take others' powers and absorb others' spells for their own means.

 

I'm not saying that its necessarily that siphons are not meant to be generally psycho, but that we've neither had that confirmed nor to I think it is the only possible explanation for being thought abominations. 

[immortalfrieza]

I'm not sure about that.  I'm not sure witches would be thrilled to have their powers regularly siphoned.  Moreover, as depicted on this show (and sometimes the Originals too) witches are generally hypocritical assholes.  I could see them shunning siphons on the basis of them being "abominations" merely for 1) not having their own powers and 2) having the ability to take others' powers and absorb others' spells for their own means.

 

I'm not saying that its necessarily that siphons are not meant to be generally psycho, but that we've neither had that confirmed nor to I think it is the only possible explanation for being thought abominations. 

Sure witches are generally hypocritical assholes, but they are generally hypocritical assholes in their own favor, not actively harmful to themselves. Siphoners are basically the greatest weapon the Gemini coven could ever hope to have, especially against magical threats and other rival covens, so unless these people were completely out of their mind bigots or there was some real genuine drawback to siphoners like inherent insanity I can't see why they wouldn't at least try to take advantage of them.

[RachelKM]

Sure witches are generally hypocritical assholes, but they are generally hypocritical assholes in their own favor, not actively harmful to themselves. Siphoners are basically the greatest weapon the Gemini coven could ever hope to have, especially against magical threats and other rival covens, so unless these people were completely out of their mind bigots or there was some real genuine drawback to siphoners like inherent insanity I can't see why they wouldn't at least try to take advantage of them.

I just disagree that it doesn't make at least as much sense for the Gemini coven to be against an "abomination" as they saw it.  Likewise, I cannot see them not fearing and disliking a siphoner who could take their powers, even those of their leader (clearly not all siphons are one to the Gemini sets of twins, in fact only Kai and at least one of the twins Caroline carries necessarily are).  Fear and prejudice seem like fairly standard reasons to hate siphoners, particularly based on what we've seen of witches on this show. Moreover, even if it had been said at one time or another that all siphoners are evil, if it came from the mouth of a Gemini witch, I'd be inclined to consider the source.

 

As I said, while the heretics have shown issues, I can't say that any of them have seemed to be like Kai.  Murdery, yes, but pretty much in the way most vampires on this show have shown themselves to be at one time or another, if not all the time.  Oscar seemed to be an okay dude.  And pre-vampire Valerie didn't seem particularly psychotic while dating Stefan.  Nora seems to have a monster chip on her shoulder and is distrustful, but she's also doesn't seem evil.  And again, though I find her to be an asshole, I don't think Mary Louise has established herself as necessarily evil. And we flat out don't know anything about Beau. 

 

In fact at this point, if the show tried to convince me that all siphons are inherently evil sociopaths like Kai, I would be inclined to give them a side eye.  If that was the writers' intention up to this point, they have failed to convey anything like that to me.

[Hiddenpick]

*Sigh*

Was not at all feeling this episode for the most part. I have to admit that while watching I experienced certain physical reactions--restlessness, head shaking, eye rolling (was I seizing?); not to mention my sorrow that the writing is an inconsistent mess. I figured as an audience member I deserved either great writing or elevated acting that would eclipse poor scripting. But when the featured actor isn't all that, then...got neither.

 

Postcards from the edge was an apt description of my mood during the two hours..er..forty minutes I viewed this episode. Maybe it's because I had no interest in the now overly saturated, long in the tooth adventures of Damon dark. (Arrow friends don't kill me). Maybe it's because I had no interest in seeing Damon revert to familiar behavior (lying in the street lay waiting some poor sucker).--been there done that once (maybe twice) too often. Maybe it's because I imagined I would continue to see sustained growth for this character...indeed it could be argued that this was regression. I don't want to minimize the emotional turmoil of Elena's "death", because the way in which the incident occurred was tragic--the occurrence that is, not the hard to believe outcome-- but enough already. I get it, this is what Damon does and who he is --a wreck, a hulk that drifts like the flying Dutchman, a menace to navigation and travelers on the uncertain seas.

 

The Fight club scene was wearisome and arduous for a few reasons. a) that it had to be used b) that it involved Julian, a waste of space, a useless character in a useless sub-plot c) that using these actors in this scenario was an insult to Brad Pitt (Durden) and Ed Norton's (West) from the Fight Club film. Apparently Julian represented Durden whose philosophy is that the Fight Club is about freeing oneself from the shackles of life which imprisons and emasculates men. By being willing to give and receive pain and risk death, Fight Club members find freedom; and it's only after one has lost everything one feels free to do anything. The importance of this scene escaped me and to the degree I do not understand, I don't care.

BTW, is the woman who 'saved' Damon the Huntress?

 

Stefan's own little fight club mano y mano moment (punching Damon a couple of times) was the highlight for me. (Sad right?). But it was Stefan's subsequent reaction after he returned to his car (banging on his steering wheel a couple of times) which was interesting. Was his behavior born out of repressed feelings for Elena or was it due to frustration and anger at his own Phoenix stone 'message' re Damon?

Julian's death with Val's magical assist was welcomed. Although, truth be told, the death seemed anticlimactic. The hits and misses that lead up to the final deed was as drawn out and as useless as the character, because the method in which he was killed was possible a long, long time ago. It's not as if his continued appearance advanced the plot.

 

Halfway through the episode I wondered if maybe the meaning of the episode had escaped me. I mean the title spoke for itself of course. Except, the 'edge' was nothing special.This was no watershed moment or huge revelation or epiphany in the life and times of Damon Salvatore. His behavior here was no worse than it had been in the past. Okay...maybe he turned his humanity off at one time--though I'm hard pressed to remember when ( when he let Enzo burn maybe?). It was however reassuring to discover that by the end of the episode I had, after all understood everything I had intended. It was just that there was less to understand than the episode at first suggests.

 

Headlines:

Hi Oh-io off to hunt we go. The witches of Mystic hunt the Huntress

Caroline's twins are siphoning her magic. Now you see her now you don't

Enzo plays with fire.

 

 

 

 

[formerlyfreedom]

Here's the spot to take the non- episode talk - The World of TVD: Still Need To Be Drunk To Understand This Story!

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Ask The Vampire Diaries's Really Sad Vampire Who Wants To Die
You've got questions? Yeah, well, some of us have real problems, jerk.