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maraleia

By maraleia
in The Americans [V]

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sistermagpie
sistermagpie

I actually did get all of that, I just didn't see why it would be that satisfying to me. I spent seasons 1-4 hoping that Mischa was a lie created to manipulate Philip, so I was totally disappointed wh

Plums
Plums

Couple of new articles this morning about the end of the series. A Vox piece that is very nice and doesn't give away any spoilers for the finale other than to say the reviewer saw and loved it. 

SlovakPrincess
SlovakPrincess

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/arts/television/richard-thomas-of-the-americans-on-agent-gaads-fate-john-boy-and-jimmy-carter.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&_r=1 "Do you

SunnyBeBe

SunnyBeBe

On 3/24/2018 at 5:36 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Hearing Matthew Rhys' real voice was like "whoa!"   LOL.  I've never seen any of his interviews before.  

I'm not really looking forward to this season, sad to say.  The last season wore me out.   I still am not jazzed about the direction they took with the Paige storyline -- having her mope for a season, and then just acquiesce into being a good little spy is possibly the most boring route they could have taken this thing.  

But I do like the idea of more Claudia.  And it will be interesting to watch a happy Philip booking cruises while Elizabeth finally gets jaded about the spy life.  

Covering Costa Ronin's pretty face with a big beard is ... not the direction I would have taken.

Stan better do something, anything, that amounts to usefulness this season!

 

Years later, I realize I'm still randomly, continuously, pissed that they killed off John Boy Walton for no reason that made sense ... (Nina's death was devastating, but her character arc at least made sense)

Rhys is always a treat for me, but, I agree with you about the final season.  I have to calm myself, since, it is my favorite show how, but, with the way the writers have taken it with Paige and Gaad.......oh well....not too good, imo.  Here's to hope! 

I adore Thomas. 

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jjj

jjj

Really interesting article about paintings they have chosen (from a contemporary artist) for this season.  Mild reference to the career of one of the new characters, but no plot spoilers.  I am not even reading the links in this thread, trying to stay spoiler-free!   But look forward to reading them eventually.  Article about the paintings:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/arts/television/the-americans-fx-final-season.html

And this article about the first episode of the new season -- the author warns not to read if you are even mildly afraid of spoilers, so I will not read it until after the episode airs!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/tv/in-its-final-season-the-americans-asks-the-eternal-question-can-this-marriage-be-saved/2018/03/26/230cc642-2a40-11e8-874b-d517e912f125_story.html?utm_term=.6db3f4e427af

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

(edited)
On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:27 PM, jjj said:

Really interesting article about paintings they have chosen (from a contemporary artist) for this season.  Mild reference to the career of one of the new characters, but no plot spoilers.  I am not even reading the links in this thread, trying to stay spoiler-free!   But look forward to reading them eventually.  Article about the paintings:

Thanks for that link, jjj.  After seeing the season premiere, I can really appreciate the last paragraph:

Quote

“That’s just the sort of backhanded compliment that we here at ‘The Americans’ like to get,” Mr. Fields said. “Here was an artist who was wondering whether or not things were too dark. Then she spent some time with us and realized she could go darker.”

Edited by Inquisitionist
Typo.
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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

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If anyone really HATES spoilers, don't watch that video above, because, at least a very significant part of the end to Paige's story is pretty much given away by the actress.

I couldn't take more than the first minute of Holly Taylor who appears to me to be even younger and less mature than Paige Jennings, and rather "self-involved" ... (not that the interviewer was any help).  She (and the interviewer) expected filming her last scene would be "emotional" but the weather was so bad and disrupted filming (they had to move locations), that everyone was just to be glad to be done for the day ....  anti-climax of an ending to this story certainly, but Taylor isn't nimble enough to make her garbled-spoiler story interesting ...  (there is an apparent spoiler but I'm not sure what it was) 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I couldn't take more than the first minute of Holly Taylor who appears to me to be even younger and less mature than Paige Jennings, and rather "self-involved" ... (not that the interviewer was any help).  She (and the interviewer) expected filming her last scene would be "emotional" but the weather was so bad and disrupted filming (they had to move locations), that everyone was just to be glad to be done for the day ....  anti-climax of an ending to this story certainly, but Taylor isn't nimble enough to make her garbled-spoiler story interesting ...  (there is an apparent spoiler but I'm not sure what it was) 

It's HUGE.  Somewhere in the last 3rd of that.  This is the gist of the spoiler she so casually, and stupidly dropped.  I be the show runners are pissed.

Spoiler

She not only spoils that Paige is alive, but also that she'll be living in the USA "10 years from the end of the show."  Further, she's not sure if she still spy for Russia, or be a regular American  So we get quite a bit from that, including that obviously, the whole family moving back to the USSR is off the table.

SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

It's really crazy how badly prepared to do promotional interviews / talk show guest spots so many actors are these days ... in the olden days (Johnny Carson / Merv Griffen, even early Letterman era), there appeared to be some advance preparation and actors came on with a "funny story" to tell with the host nudging the actor along when they digressed or became incoherent (as Taylor did).  The spots were short and controlled (even sometimes, it felt, rehearsed) and meant to be entertaining.  Similarly, a young actor would be asked about older more established cast members -- Isn't it great to be working with .... -- where they could be effusively grateful for the opportunity.  I'm doubtful there were a lot of die-hard Holly Taylor fans wanting to know more about her (and her emotional response) rather than mention of her next project and/or how doing the series has helped her "grow".  

 

eta; This is not specific Taylor -- I've seen Julia Roberts and other actors "lose the thread" of the "funny story" they were trying to tell ... for me, with extreme stage fright, truly excruciating to watch .... 

Spoiler

Yes,  I did "get" that some character died,  as far as I could tell, not her -- but she seemed so flummoxed by the interview and without grace that I found it painful to watch 

Edited by SusanSunflower
Umbelina

Umbelina

1 hour ago, halopub said:

A bunch of pieces from New York Magazine:

Quote

Taylor has played Paige since she was 13 years old, and in the years she’s done so, she’s often been a target of viewer hatred. For her, this new turn to badassery is a relief. It’s what she’s long been wanting for the character: “For her to redeem herself,” she tells me excitedly. “Even though she didn’t have a reason to redeem herself, because everything she did I think was fully justified and expected,” she clarifies. “I just hope that people start to have some more compassion for her and see how much she’s grown and how much she is like Elizabeth.”

From that first link, also this:

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At the beginning of The Americans, Paige and her little-seen younger brother Henry (Keidrich Sellati) were largely props for their parents’ wholesome all-American family act. But in casting a child actor, you never know when you’ll strike gold, and much as with Kiernan Shipka on Mad Men, Weisberg and Fields quickly learned Taylor could handle anything they threw at her. “We always knew that a fundamental drama of the show revolved around that tension between the parents and the kids, and we also knew that Paige would be the one they told, so that was central to everything,” explains Weisberg. “But I think what we didn’t understand at the beginning was the amount of screen time that story would take up, and it is absolutely because Holly was so terrific and so convincing and so talented.”

OK then.

Some reviews:

http://www.vulture.com/2018/03/the-americans-season-6-review.html

Quote

The opening montage — set to one of the most beautiful pop songs of the ’80s, Crowded House’s “Don’t Dream It’s Over” — unfolds for four straight minutes with very little audible dialogue, just shots of Philip and Elizabeth Jennings (Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell) going about their routines in 1987, on the eve of the U.S. and the former Soviet Union working out the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces treaty, which in retrospect heralded the beginning of the end of the Cold War.

Personally, I enjoyed the opening long, no dialogue, music thing but I didn't enjoy the constant music video format continuing through the entire show, and wasn't so loud.  Maybe I've become a "Get off my lawn!" person?

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There’s a cameo by the FBI’s mail robot and a scene of Philip line-dancing in a country-western bar, and you could even argue that the opening montage is an off-kilter mirror of that bang-up introductory section from the pilot, set to Fleetwood Mac’s “Tusk.”

I missed the mail robot!  Good catch Vulture!

Sepinwall.  https://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-americans-recap-dead-hand-review-season-premiere-spoilers/

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* So, does the fact that Renee and Stan are still a happy couple — and a married one, no less — years after he left spy work alter anyone’s belief that she’s a spy working for the Soviets or some other group? It’s entirely possible that she’s playing a very long game — and Elizabeth overhears her telling Aderholt’s wife Janine that Stan now is free to talk about his job in a way he wasn’t when he worked for Gaad or Wolf — but one could also imagine her handlers pulling the plug after a year or two of him chasing bank robbers.

I missed that they were married!  This one is not as detailed as his usual recaps, and he barely mentions Paige at all, probably deliberately.  He does mention his earlier review of the first three episodes though, obviously avoid if you hate spoilers of any kind.  https://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-americans-review-final-season/

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/03/29/the-americans-dead-hand-review

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It's here though that we see Elizabeth's half-measure shortcomings as a spy mom. If Paige was a fully formed covert operative, she would realized that she was blown and handled things herself. Either right then or later on, like Elizabeth wound up doing. But Elizabeth is still coddling Paige out of love and a sense of protectiveness. With Paige, she's vulnerable. It's not a flaw, per se, but she's also doing that thing she always does where she absorbs everyone's burden. Like how she's allowed Philip to retire from the life completely. She's not sharing just how dastardly and filthy the spy life truly is with her daughter. She carries the weight for everyone and not only is it destroying her, but it's now led her to a very dangerous dead end.

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Season 6 has a very tricky objective. It has to wrap up a six-year story while also interweaving things into actual history. The Cold War ended and so the Jennings saga also must come to a close. We're right up against the Reagan/Gorbachev summit now, just nine weeks out according to the premiere, so how do you ramp up the tension when actual peace is on the horizon? Well, there are always enemies of progress and Elizabeth is now finding herself linked to hardline Gorbachev opponents. Old minds, old guards, who will do anything to stop change from happening. Elizabeth has run for so hard, for so long, that she's finally encountered Philip's greatest fear: Compromised Orders.

http://variety.com/2018/tv/reviews/americans-keri-russell-matthew-rhys-final-season-review-fx-1202737363/

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But what proof does Elizabeth have that Paige’s Russian handlers will allow her to avoid doing the kind of dirty work she and Philip have had to take on? Elizabeth doesn’t look too closely at this belief — or delusion — just as Philip tries to cling to the idea that focusing on the couple’s travel agency will ensure a prosperous, normal life for his family. “The Americans” hints — with gentle humor, as is its way — that the travel-agency business isn’t long for this world, given the imminent rise of discount travel and internet travel sites. It’s a measure of the show’s ability to create deep investment in its characters that it’s hard not to worry about how Phillip — who’s working hard to motivate his expanded sales force — will react to the decimation of the other task he devoted his adult life to. 

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The show’s meticulous construction of ambiguous choices is one of the finest achievements in recent television history. Sometimes precise and measured storytelling can be dry and arid, or lacking in passion. But showrunners Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields have made the examination of difficult moral options, and the often good intentions of complicated people, collide in believable and bittersweet ways for six seasons.

There should not be a seventh year; the fifth occasionally lacked the forward momentum to power through all 13 episodes.

 

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/03/the-americans-season-6-premiere-review-dead-hand.html

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As it happens, the beginning of the end for The Americans is reminiscent of the end of the beginning, in which the spies’ most dangerous game is any game they play apart. After being shot in the stomach in the Season One finale, Elizabeth asks Philip to “come home,” which “Dead Hand” recalls—and twists—by destabilizing the term’s meaning. Is “home” still Moscow, so unrecognizable to Elizabeth in the Russian comedy she screens with Claudia (Margo Martindale) and Paige (Holly Taylor)? Is “home” still the place behind the red door, now that Paige is in college and Henry’s at prep school? Is it possible to find “home” at work, when that work is the sleepless labor of the secret agent? To “come home,” in The Americans—now set in 1987, six years after the series premiere—is no longer assured, if it’s even still possible, because “home” changes as surely as we do; it becomes an off-campus apartment or a boarding-school dorm room or an American travel agency by degrees, almost imperceptibly, until one day we discover we no longer know where—or who—we are.

https://tv.avclub.com/the-americans-final-season-begins-with-the-realization-1824147884#_ga=2.154391096.1897126451.1522438058-185693468.1520244168

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The queasy fear at the heart of The Americans is that it was always going to come down to this: Spy versus spy, husband versus wife, Philip versus Elizabeth. The arc of the series occasionally pulled away from such concerns, but the specter of this inevitable conflict remained, in wavering loyalties to country and beliefs in the mission, to the showrunners’ reminders that this is first and foremost a story about a marriage. And in “Dead Hand,” we get a glimpse at something that could truly, irreversibly rupture that union.

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Following a fifth season that pushed The Americans’ slow burn to its limits, “Dead Hand” restores much of its power.

Quote

This crisis point in the Jennings marriage both reflects the state of affairs in the Soviet Union in 1987 and informs The Americans’ depiction of that moment. The policies of Mikhail Gorbachev were creating a USSR different from the one that Elizabeth, Philip, or Claudia ever knew, partially glimpsed in the modern-day scenes of Moscow Does Not Believe In Tears, the film Paige watches at the safe house with her mother and spy grandma. The resistance to that change is where this sixth-season conflict gets tricky, and where “Dead Hand” must do most of its dialogue heavy lifting. According to the reemerged Arkady Ivanovich, KGB leadership opposes Gorbachev’s reforms, so they’re going behind each other’s backs and over each other’s heads to orchestrate things like Elizabeth’s trip to Mexico—a Directorate S operation conducted without the express approval of the deputy chief of Directorate S. Oleg is the ideal candidate to run the counter-operation without suspicion: ex-KGB with knowledge of Directorate S, a cushy job in the Department Of Transportation, and a powerful father. And so back to the United States—and back into grave danger—Oleg Burov goes.

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Umbelina

Umbelina

http://collider.com/the-americans-season-6-review/

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That divide is played out on a macro level as well, as an arms summit looms between the United States and the USSR. In the Soviet Union, there’s a split between those who are pro-Gorbachev (and progress), and those who want to hold onto the old ways. It’s a divide we’ve long seen in Philip and Elizabeth respectively, and Season 6 explores how both are approached individually to further that cause — even if it means turning on one another, which seems unfathomable. 

Collider sticks the landing here.  The battle we are watching between the KGB forces and Gorbachev is about to play out in the Jennings' home.  They've had the battles about life choices before, but now, they will be on opposite sides of one specific, important battle.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-americans-review-from-russia-with-no-love-1521752705

Quote

The designs against Gorbachev are widespread and murderous—but they don’t go unopposed. The retired Oleg Burov ( Costa Ronin ), KGB agent with a conscience, has been persuaded to return to Washington to counter the efforts of Gorbachev’s enemies. Burov, loath to leave his happy life with his wife and infant son, is driven by one cause—saving Gorbachev, and the hope for a freer Russia he represents. Responding to his wife’s despairing plea that he stay at home Burov points to his son and asks, what kind of a life can he expect if his father takes no action?

The next review is about the first few episodes, so obviously avoid it if you don't like spoilers.  This is more about the feel and emotions of things, but at least one specific scene is referenced.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/mar/28/the-danger-of-nostalgia-a-tough-timely-final-season-of-the-americans

The NY Times review, which I will be able to see in two days.  (my limit has been reached and I haven't subscribed yet)  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/arts/television/the-americans-final-season-review.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=0C3BF0A08378654A6C5AFB4F590F7A5E&gwt=pay

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/03/americans-review-season-6-episode-1-dead-hand-spoilers-1201944665/

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This has been their dynamic for the past three years, but all that’s about to change. It’s 1987, Crowded House is taking the country by storm, and Mikhail Gorbachev aims to thaw the Cold War once and for all. What does it all mean for a married couple divided over which version of Mother Russia they’re loyal to? Well, after the first hour, it certainly doesn’t look like both of them will make it out of this season alive.

Quote

 

So, Who’s Going to Die?

After one episode, it sure looks like Elizabeth. Not only is she the one still in the game, she’s overworked and struggling mightily because of it. Tired agents make mistakes, but that’s not even what has us worried the most: During her meeting with General Kovtun (from the bluntly named Strategic Rocket Forces), Elizabeth is given a suicide pill.

“You know about Dead Hand now,” Kovtun says. “You can’t be arrested.”

Now, “The Americans” is rarely predictable, but it also rarely wastes time. This is a big moment, driven home by Peter Gabriel’s “We Do What We’re Told” drowning out the dialogue once Elizabeth is given the pill. Someone is eating that thing by the end of the series, and Elizabeth seems ready to do it.

Could she slip it into an unsuspecting enemy’s vodka? Sure. Could Philip take it instead, perhaps to save her life by sacrificing his own? You bet. We’re not putting anything by Joel Fields and Joe Weisberg, but the placement of the scene, along with its haunting music and prominent focus, make it clear how high the stakes are in Season 6 — and how far down the KGB rabbit hole Elizabeth has drifted.

 

I love reading all of the reviews, can you tell?  So much respect for, and attention to, this show, which I've enjoyed so much for most of it's run.

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Erin9

Erin9

I love reviews too. 

I really don’t think it’s a great thing if Paige truly is a lot like Elizabeth. Elizabeth is an extremist. That’s a dangerous thing to be. Elizabeth will cling to something even when it’s clearly failing- ie-the disastrous communist experiment that doesn’t work. 

Philip is capable of nuanced, independent thought. He’s adaptable. He’s looking for something that will benefit his people. Whatever that is. He may have burned out, but at this point, Elizabeth has too. It’s painfully obvious. She’s not better imo for having stayed in at this point. 

One of the things that I think is fascinating about this season is that it’s not so much US vs USSR; it’s what kind of homeland do we want. And it’s brought right into their living room. 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

Those NYT's reviews are outstanding by the way.  Just got to look at them.  (Thanks!)
 

Quote

 

It’s one thing when your marriage is threatened because you never see each other and one partner feels like she’s doing all the work. It’s another thing when your marriage is threatened because someone flies over from Moscow to tell the husband that he may need to kill his wife.

Welcome back, comrades, for the sixth and last season of “The Americans,” which began Wednesday night on FX with a brisk episode called “Dead Hand” that deftly caught us up and set the show’s end game in motion. Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, the Soviet spies who live in our midst (if you happen to live in the D.C. metro area) are now officially on opposite sides of the Cold War, geopolitically and in the kitchen.

 

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....1987 market crash, a few weeks off (Black Monday was Oct. 19). It’s hard to imagine the Jenningses won’t have something to say about that capitalist meltdown, and its effects on the travel business.

I particularly liked this observation:

Quote

It’s a jarring development in a series that’s been a story of marriage as equal partnership. In the season premiere, when Elizabeth bitingly cuts off Philip’s attempt to get her to open up about work — “I know you love to talk,” she says, dismissively — it’s as breathtaking as any act of violence in the series.

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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

Just now, Erin9 said:

I really don’t think it’s a great thing if Paige truly is a lot like Elizabeth. Elizabeth is an extremist. That’s a dangerous thing to be. Elizabeth will cling to something even when it’s clearly failing- ie-the disastrous communist experiment that doesn’t work. 

 

Yes, I think they've shown Paige being like Elizabeth all along. But honestly, she lacks a lot of the things that make her more sympathetic. First, the upbringing that makes Elizabeth so easy to understand. There's a huge difference between being someone who developed an outlook that was good for your survival as a child and having trouble letting it go than being someone who adopted an outlook as an adult because it was in some ways the easiest choice.

Second, the whole show practically hinges on the potential that Elizabeth *could* change. There'd be no show if she was just the ideologue. It's not Breaking Bad. The story starts because she reaches out for a real life via Philip. Surely we ought to be rooting for Elizabeth to want to free Paige instead of romanticizing all this. And it seems like starting the season with Elizabeth completely haggard, with a cyanide pill around her neck, alienated from her husband and murdering in response to mixing motherhood with spy mentoring sets that up. Like many times before, Elizabeth's gotten what she said she wanted, but is it really a good idea? Elizabeth is valuing all the wrong things in her life. Even her devotion to her country might very well be valuing the wrong things about it.

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Erin9

Erin9

You got it!! Thanks. I’ve been wanting to read that one! 

Ya know- I thought the premiere was outstanding. It really was. (In fact- I got my cousin hooked on the show last year.  She texted me when she was done with the premiere and was like it’s over already. Lol) 

But I checked out a couple of S3 episodes where there is all the tension over Paige, but they still worked together. It’s sad that partnership is gone now. I miss it. And Paige IS NOT a substitute for Philip. 

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Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)

Elizabeth was indoctrinated by the real pros, living away from home with nothing but training and the glories of patriotism and the great communist/socialist causes drummed into her impressionable head. I'm not being sarcastic there, the revolutionaries really had a lot of good ideas, just completely messed up the execution of those ideals and goals, with a lot of help from the USA and England - led blockades, and the great fears of what we now call the 1% about unions, and losing their wealth and domination,  putting all of their influence into breaking the Bolsheviks, and supporting the Czar.

For Elizabeth, that was non stop, and yes, while she and Paige may share the believer/dedicated/single minded gene?  That's where the comparison ends.  Paige has been exposed to so much, and even though it certainly isn't perfect, she also had the benefit of a free press, and books from those that escaped the soviet union, and watching how the rest of the world lives (both good and bad.)  Elizabeth's access was narrow and controlled in her formative years.

Would Elizabeth be such a true and loyal citizen if she'd had Paige's advantages?  I honestly doubt it.  While she still might have socialist tendencies, as do many here in the USA?  She could have just as easily decided to be all-in as a patriotic American, if the circumstances and place of birth were different.

I think Paige would follow anyone and any belief, if it got her affirmation and approval.  She's a cult-groupie more than a dedicated communist.

ETA

WHY on earth would Paige have loyalty to a country she's never known over her own, especially in the eighties.  If this were the twenties or thirties, it would be different.  At least Elizabeth thinks of it as "home" even though, she doesn't recognize Moscow as they watch the movie.  First crack in her armor?  Realizing that she doesn't recognize her homeland?

Edited by Umbelina
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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

17 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But I checked out a couple of S3 episodes where there is all the tension over Paige, but they still worked together. It’s sad that partnership is gone now. I miss it. And Paige IS NOT a substitute for Philip. 

I was thinking about S3 anyway, actually, because that's another season that starts with Philip isolated while Elizabeth and the Centre move forward with Paige. It's not the same as this since they're still working together and they're not personally at odds--but then, I think Elizabeth is being a lot more smug there because she's getting what she wants and feels like she's just having to be patient with Philip. Now she's miserable and taking it out on him. 

But then, remember that S3 ended with Paige betraying them to Pastor Tim. Iow, Elizabeth really didn't know best about everything. 

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth was indoctrinated by the real pros, living away from home with nothing but training and the glories of patriotism and the great communist/socialist causes drummed into her impressionable head.

And her mother had already indoctrinated her into the same ideas--plus they'd just come through an invasion. It would probably have been hard for Elizabeth to find anyplace that didn't consider these ideas a given.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

For Elizabeth, that was non stop, and yes, while she and Paige may share the believer/dedicated/single minded gene?  That's where the comparison ends.  Paige has been exposed to so much, and even though it certainly isn't perfect, she also had the benefit of a free press, and books from those that escaped the soviet union, and watching how the rest of the world lives (both good and bad.)  Elizabeth's access was narrow and controlled in her formative years.

 

Another thing that's so frustrating with Paige is she lives in a society where protest is totally legal. She could be fighting for all the things she claims to be fighting for in completely legal ways in the USA or elsewhere. She could even do it in shadier ways without working for a foreign power. Instead she's saying she's fighting for things like social justice and equality and peace while she's really just furthering the aims of one of two superpowers, which is usually just about power. 

Mischa Jr. spoke out against the war at home and was put in a mental institution. Paige, from her position of relative safety in the US, would support the people who put him there (since she's allied with Claudia and Elizabeth). 

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Paige would follow anyone and any belief, if it got her affirmation and approval.  She's a cult-groupie more than a dedicated communist.

I agree. I think if Elizabeth had been born in the USA she'd have been a very loyal American--maybe even a Conservative one, I don't know. Elizabeth has a horror of being a traitor. She tells herself her daughter isn't one because she's an honorary Russian and she already has a history of thinking the "good" Americans are the ones who work for her (like Gregory) but I feel like they should do something with that fundamental difference between them. Paige seems to have found it incredibly easy to turn traitor against a country that's done a lot for her.

Her father, by contrast, still feels a responsibility and affection for his country even while living with a much higher standard of living in the US. No matter how much he "likes it" there, he cares about his home country. I predict he'll try to put off his "hero's call" for a bit, maybe one episode, but then work with Oleg. 

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Erin9

Erin9

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I was thinking about S3 anyway, actually, because that's another season that starts with Philip isolated while Elizabeth and the Centre move forward with Paige. It's not the same as this since they're still working together and they're not personally at odds--but then, I think Elizabeth is being a lot more smug there because she's getting what she wants and feels like she's just having to be patient with Philip. Now she's miserable and taking it out on him. 

But then, remember that S3 ended with Paige betraying them to Pastor Tim. Iow, Elizabeth really didn't know best about everything. 

And her mother had already indoctrinated her into the same ideas--plus they'd just come through an invasion. It would probably have been hard for Elizabeth to find anyplace that didn't consider these ideas a given.

Another thing that's so frustrating with Paige is she lives in a society where protest is totally legal. She could be fighting for all the things she claims to be fighting for in completely legal ways in the USA or elsewhere. She could even do it in shadier ways without working for a foreign power. Instead she's saying she's fighting for things like social justice and equality and peace while she's really just furthering the aims of one of two superpowers, which is usually just about power. 

Mischa Jr. spoke out against the war at home and was put in a mental institution. Paige, from her position of relative safety in the US, would support the people who put him there (since she's allied with Claudia and Elizabeth). 

I agree. I think if Elizabeth had been born in the USA she'd have been a very loyal American--maybe even a Conservative one, I don't know. Elizabeth has a horror of being a traitor. She tells herself her daughter isn't one because she's an honorary Russian and she already has a history of thinking the "good" Americans are the ones who work for her (like Gregory) but I feel like they should do something with that fundamental difference between them. Paige seems to have found it incredibly easy to turn traitor against a country that's done a lot for her.

Her father, by contrast, still feels a responsibility and affection for his country even while living with a much higher standard of living in the US. No matter how much he "likes it" there, he cares about his home country. I predict he'll try to put off his "hero's call" for a bit, maybe one episode, but then work with Oleg. 

Good point about Elizabeth not wanting to be a traitor. In this case- what makes you one? She appears to be siding with hardliner KGB officers who oppose Gorbachev reform, even to the point of being willing to be part of a plot that could lead to his death. Seems somewhat traitorous to me. But I guess it depends on your POV. I think she sees his reforms as a threat to the “true” Russia. 

I really think you nailed Philip. He likes America, but he does care about and feel responsible for his homeland. I can’t recall the exact contexts right now, but he’s said things like- my people are dying, asking why we can’t feed our people, getting talked into doing something by Gabriel for the good of their people. I’m struck that Philip’s feelings are personal. Elizabeth is all about ideas. She says it’s for the good of people, but really she’s stuck on the utopian vision. The idea. The dream. Not the people’s day to day reality. 

lol I could definitely see Philip taking his time saying yes to Oleg, if indeed he does. I also think it’s up for debate how he might help. He might try to find a way around doing exactly what Oleg wants, but still helping the cause. Or- something Elizabeth/Paige does could push him to do exactly what Oleg wants. Who knows. Many possibilities imo. 

  • Love 1
Umbelina

Umbelina

I don't see where Elizabeth was really given a chance to "choose" here.  They made it perfectly clear that her life is not as valuable as their goals.

She went into this meeting fairly blind really, but I didn't hear them say "So, about betraying the (essentially President) General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I assume you are all in with the KGB about that, right?  Yes or no, it's us or him, choose."  (of course if you choose your President, you are not leaving this place alive anyway...it's too important, I'm sure you understand.)

Now I think we can assume she'd choose the KGB, but really, DID she have a choice here?

  • Love 1
Erin9

Erin9

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I don't see where Elizabeth was really given a chance to "choose" here.  They made it perfectly clear that her life is not as valuable as their goals.

She went into this meeting fairly blind really, but I didn't hear them say "So, about betraying the (essentially President) General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I assume you are all in with the KGB about that, right?  Yes or no, it's us or him, choose."  (of course if you choose your President, you are not leaving this place alive anyway...it's too important, I'm sure you understand.)

Now I think we can assume she'd choose the KGB, but really, DID she have a choice here?

True- I’m not sure she had a choice either in that moment, though I tend to agree she’d likely side with the KGB. But- really- I’m just thinking about what makes one a traitor. Choice or not, she could be considered a traitor depending on your POV. Or- looking ahead-she could pretend to follow orders, but not follow through. Might cost her life. It would just depend on her values by then. 

SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

They assumed she'd agree the Gorbachav was a traitor to all that was holy and needed to be brought down before he destroyed the republic. ("by any means necessary" -- but particularly if he agreed to "give away" Dead Hand (removing the Mutually Assured Destruction from beyond the grave) which they see (I think) as virtually inviting a first strike ... like people who believe that ending capital punishment would remove a significant deterrent (even if consideration of "deterrents" is fairly rare).  I think they were correct as to Elizabeth's stance seeing capitulation (backing down) as treason.   Apparently Putin currently deals with a vocal contingent of hardliners outraged by his being soft (negotiating, conciliating) in response to "Western provocation".  Let's not think about the current issues wrt the proliferation of "tactical" or "battlefield" (limited) nukes. 

Edited by SusanSunflower
redundant
scrb

scrb

She could report the general.

Give Gorbachev an excuse to clean house on the KGB.

But Elizabeth made it clear that she's not down with the arms talks, that her sympathies lie with the coup plotters.

I think at some point, both Philip and Elizabeth would have to explicitly express an opinion of Gorbachev one way or another.

Not only is he the subject of all the news in the USSR but world wide.  He made it really into popular culture.  Not only were there regular stories about glasnost, perestroika and detente, he ended up on a pinball game.

I'm not remembering but I'm sure he was in songs, TV shows, movies.

I can see Elizabeth rolling her eyes at the way Americans and Europeans were ga-ga about him at the peak, before the fall of the Berlin Wall in November '89.

sistermagpie

sistermagpie

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Good point about Elizabeth not wanting to be a traitor. In this case- what makes you one? She appears to be siding with hardliner KGB officers who oppose Gorbachev reform, even to the point of being willing to be part of a plot that could lead to his death. Seems somewhat traitorous to me. But I guess it depends on your POV. I think she sees his reforms as a threat to the “true” Russia. 

Yes, both sides are basically working for Russia. The hierarchy goes Arkady (head of Directorate S) - Head of KGB (Directorate S is part of the KGB) - Gorbachev (leader of the country). So Elizabeth is going over Arkady's head to the head of the KGB. But Philip would be working for the head of his department and then going above their head to Gorbachev. Both sides can honestly claim they're the patriots, probably.

Re: Elizabeth's choice, it doesn't seem like she was really given one, but if it were Philip, let's face it, he'd find a choice in there somewhere, just as Oleg did in the past. That's not Elizabeth's style, but she was by the end taking a strong stance. Philip had met with Oleg by then so he knew she would be involved in undermining Gorbachev's plans. He floated the idea of "fewer weapons" and she defensively said the Americans were just tricking them. So she seems to have started to get herself more enthusiastically onboard with her task here. Which is the way she usually is. She gets the order and then justifies it.

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I really think you nailed Philip. He likes America, but he does care about and feel responsible for his homeland. I can’t recall the exact contexts right now, but he’s said things like- my people are dying, asking why we can’t feed our people, getting talked into doing something by Gabriel for the good of their people. I’m struck that Philip’s feelings are personal. Elizabeth is all about ideas. She says it’s for the good of people, but really she’s stuck on the utopian vision. The idea. The dream. Not the people’s day to day reality. 

That's definitely the pattern I've noticed.  They even knew they could hold Mischa over his head when, let's face it, plenty of other men wouldn't have felt that personally connected to a kid they never met and might not even exist. Philip would like people in America to be happy too and seems perfectly fine with letting them be happy in a very different society than the one he lives in. Ideally he'd probably like everyone to get the best of both societies. But he's more personally connected to the USSR. The Soviet dream was supposed to make their lives better and if it's not doing that of course it should be reformed.

SlovakPrincess

SlovakPrincess

(edited)

I think Elizabeth never really had a choice, and her staunch loyalty to the cause is partly, subconsciously, her attempt to feel she has control over her life.  Paige has more control over her own life, but acts like she has no choices, partly because of Elizabeth and Philip putting the burden of their real life on her, and partly because she's confused and young, but mostly because she's basically spineless.

It's kind of sad that Holly Taylor felt people hated her character and now the only "redemption" for the character is for Paige to become like Elizabeth.  I can imagine a young actress might get emotionally invested and be sad if the audience hates her character (a particular risk for kid actors, since so often the audience finds the kid characters annoying and in the way).  

 

Back to the topic of adoring Richard Thomas, I saw him in a touring stage production of Twelve Angry Men years ago, and he was phenomenal.  

Edited by SlovakPrincess
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PipPop

PipPop

On 3/29/2018 at 4:11 PM, Umbelina said:

It's HUGE.  Somewhere in the last 3rd of that.  This is the gist of the spoiler she so casually, and stupidly dropped.  I be the show runners are pissed.

  Hide contents

She not only spoils that Paige is alive, but also that she'll be living in the USA "10 years from the end of the show."  Further, she's not sure if she still spy for Russia, or be a regular American  So we get quite a bit from that, including that obviously, the whole family moving back to the USSR is off the table.

She didn't really spoil anything concrete about Paige's fate in this interview. She repeats Matthew Rhys' long running joke that Paige would become Monica Lewinsky, and then adds that they always said that in 10 years Paige would be a senator, but would she be a good senator or a spy senator? She'd prefer it if Paige ended up as a senator and not just a Monica Lewinsky type, but then said that even as of the start of S6, Paige doesn't know what will happen. It sounded to me that all she did was repeat speculation that's been kidded about in other interviews already.

The only actual spoiler that I've heard Holly say about the ending was in a different interview. 

  • Love 1
sistermagpie

sistermagpie

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I think Elizabeth never really had a choice, and her staunch loyalty to the cause is partly, subconsciously, her attempt to feel she has control over her life.  Paige has more control over her own life, but acts like she has no choices, partly because of Elizabeth and Philip putting the burden of their real life on her, and partly because she's confused and young, but mostly because she's basically spineless.

Answering this is the Elizabeth thread because it seems like it's getting into that area...

Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)

https://slate.com/culture/2018/03/the-americans-insider-podcast-for-episode-1-of-season-6-dead-hand-audio.html

Podcast.  I'm trying to listen to it.

"Why did you skip ahead three years?"

"um, well, we wanted to get to glasnost." 

Uh, yeah dudes, you had an entire season last year where you dug holes and endlessly made food.

They love having Philip and Elizabeth apart because it's more fun to write.

Again.  Duh?

ETA

I think my anger at the writers for last season, and for their obsession with Paige is spilling over into trying to listen to them on this podcast.  Their endless giggling is annoying me to no end.

I keep having to rewind, because they seem kind of foolish and stupid or boring, and I keep losing track of their babbling, while looking for something meaningful.  Also, the interviewer's questions this time are annoying me.  Lady, it's OBVIOUS why Liz is smoking, and no, it doesn't look like Philip is "failing" at capitalism.  What?  Also, why don't you ask questions we might actually care about, or that don't have obvious answers.

OK, at 10 minutes in she brings up Oleg.

The showrunners response?  Basically they wanted to work with Costa.

Good to know dudes.

They do remind everyone that Chechov's gun wasn't used with Martha (about the suicide pill) but I'd argue that in a way it was.  The missing gun was the final straw that made Martha worry for Philip and distrust Gabe, and set in motion much of the ending of that season.  The tense search for Martha.

I'm sticking it out, some drivel about Elizabeth's lack of appreciation for art that goes nowhere (so far) but they love that actress playing the painter!

I hope something good happens during this, I'll keep listening, but so far, I'm unimpressed with this one.  Anyone else finding gems?

ETA

At 15:40 they finally talk a bit about Paige and the Guard.  The only thing this crappy interviewer gets out of them is that they wrote the scene BEFORE the #metoo movement.  Right before that they talk a bit more about Oleg and the (kind of a spoiler, but not much of one.)

Spoiler

"difficulty of communicating with Arkady back in Russia," and that it will play out in a few more episodes, so yay, Oleg sticks around in the USA, but boo, he may be doomed.

There is a moment they writers are interesting around 19 minutes, before the Breaking Bad talk, and the stupid music talk.  They say they threw out storylines and even scripts TWICE.  They further say that after episode three they get back on track.  ??

Last ETA, the costume designer is a bit more interesting, and not at all annoying, she's at the end.

I lied.  One last ETA, and it's kind of a cool one.  On about my 6th attempt at listening something cool was said.

Arkady had Oleg use the "emergency" code to contact Philip.  Was that the same mark he placed on all the cars leaving the Residentura to warn Elizabeth (they thought Philip, but they had switched tasks) that they were blown?  Remember the big car escape with Philip rescuing Elizabeth, while Stan and tons of FBI staked out the location?  If so, that was a cool call back.  They confirmed that Philip had looked at that mailbox every day for so many years that it was rote by then, even though he was out of the game.

Edited by Umbelina
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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Arkady had Oleg use the "emergency" code to contact Philip.  Was that the same mark he placed on all the cars leaving the Residentura to warn Elizabeth (they thought Philip, but they had switched tasks) that they were blown?  Remember the big car escape with Philip rescuing Elizabeth, while Stan and tons of FBI staked out the location?  If so, that was a cool call back.  They confirmed that Philip had looked at that mailbox every day for so many years that it was rote by then, even though he was out of the game.

I think the one on the cars was more of a sideways V and it meant to abort. This one was just a line. But I definitely still consider it a callback.

If it's the same interviewer as it usually is on those podcasts, I've disliked her intensely for a long time. She always seems to ask the stupidest questions and also make pronouncements about the show that are equally off. The first year they did the podcast it was people from the show talking to each other but one they hired that woman to host it I stopped being interested in it.

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kokapetl

kokapetl

(edited)

Peter Gabriel gets more lines than Henry. 

On 31/03/2018 at 1:21 AM, halopub said:

A bunch of pieces from New York Magazine:

Edited by Kokapetl
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SunnyBeBe

SunnyBeBe

(edited)
On 3/31/2018 at 11:55 AM, PipPop said:

She didn't really spoil anything concrete about Paige's fate in this interview. She repeats Matthew Rhys' long running joke that Paige would become Monica Lewinsky, and then adds that they always said that in 10 years Paige would be a senator, but would she be a good senator or a spy senator? She'd prefer it if Paige ended up as a senator and not just a Monica Lewinsky type, but then said that even as of the start of S6, Paige doesn't know what will happen. It sounded to me that all she did was repeat speculation that's been kidded about in other interviews already.

The only actual spoiler that I've heard Holly say about the ending was in a different interview. 

What interview was that? .................That's okay. I think I just found it on the spoiler thread.  

Edited by SunnyBeBe
PipPop

PipPop

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What interview was that? .................That's okay. I think I just found it on the spoiler thread.  

It's in this article: https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/the-americans-star-holly-taylor-on-the-shows-final-season.html

It's a smallish spoiler as spoilers go, but it's the only actual spoiler about the series ending that I've seen.  It's in the short paragraph that starts, "In just ten episodes, with the end of the Cold War drawing ever nearer, we’ll finally learn what becomes of the Jennings family."  

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SunnyBeBe

SunnyBeBe

11 hours ago, PipPop said:

It's in this article: https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/the-americans-star-holly-taylor-on-the-shows-final-season.html

It's a smallish spoiler as spoilers go, but it's the only actual spoiler about the series ending that I've seen.  It's in the short paragraph that starts, "In just ten episodes, with the end of the Cold War drawing ever nearer, we’ll finally learn what becomes of the Jennings family."  

Thanks.  I'm not sure what to make of it though......hmmmm......

Umbelina

Umbelina

Review time for me, and yes, I am avoiding doing my taxes AGAIN.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/04/the-americans-recap-season-6-episode-2-tchaikovsky.html

Quote

“Tchaikovsky” focuses heavily on Elizabeth’s precarious situation — as an overtaxed one-woman operation, as a mother trying (and failing) to protect her daughter from the ugliest of truths, as a soldier in a Cold War that’s rapidly thawing. Her exposure has increased while her relevance has decreased, which is a dangerous combination. The Cold War has given her a purpose, and the end of it portends the end of her mission — and perhaps, the end of her life. The subtext of her skepticism over the summit and her efforts to secure that lithium-based radiation sensor is that she needs to stand in the way of progress. Otherwise, she’s rendered useless, a casualty of a losing cause. And then she’ll have to think about the sacrifices she’s made and the lives she’s destroyed, all in support of the wrong side of history.

I like that. 

I do think that the telegraphing of Elizabeth's actual demise might be misdirection though.

Quote

The title of the episode comes from a recording Claudia plays for Paige, prefaced by the grim biographical note that “[Tchaikovsky’s] mother died when he was young and his life was full of loneliness.” As a one-line summary of Tchaikovsky’s life, that’s an awfully peculiar and suggestive point of emphasis.

I totally missed that.

Quote

This week, she evades Paige’s question about women spies using their bodies to get closer to a source. (“There’s a lot of bullshit out there Paige,” says Elizabeth, bullshitting.)

Ha!  Nice one Vulture, or rather Scott Tobias! 

This one goes on to be an even better review.

Umbelina

Umbelina

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/4/4/17195360/the-americans-season-6-episode-2-recap-tchaikovsky

By Todd VanDerWerff, Libby Nelson, Genevieve Koski, and Caroline Framke

I really like these round-table reviews VOX does.

Also, if you are primarily focused on the family and marriage of the Jennings?  You will probably enjoy this in depth discussion of both.

Quote

 

Last week, I wrote that it was only a matter of time before Paige realized that her parents’ work isn’t the clean-cut decency that they sold her. I did not think that would happen quite this quickly or — I’m so sorry — explosively!

It did seem as though Paige was already questioning her mother’s honesty when she asked her, straight up, whether KGB agents use sex to get information — and Elizabeth replied with a firm “no.” Even though Elizabeth followed up with a more wishy-washy “things aren’t so black and white” clarification, it seemed pretty clear that Paige didn’t totally buy it.

Frankly, I’m not sure what Elizabeth’s end game was in shielding Paige from the realities of the job. Of course she and Claudia would want to gradually ease Paige into the more harrowing aspects, but if she truly is continuing down this track, she was always going to have to learn the harsh realities of what her parents — and now she — are expected to do for the cause. Now, after Paige found Elizabeth drenched in someone else’s blood and viscera, there should be no going back to patriotic platitudes.

 

I really agree with this comment as well.

Quote

Is Elizabeth lying to Paige, though, or is she lying to herself about the realities of her daughter’s future? She seems to believe what she told Philip: Paige’s life will be different. She’ll have a professional job somewhere in the American security state and pass secrets to the Soviets on the side.

Because, yes, having a professional job will not preclude her from possibly having to spy on someone in another department, or even agency.  Spy trails lead from one to the other.  So for example, if she was aware of something going on, because of her job, that doesn't necessarily mean she would have all of the necessary details about that, and she might have to obtain them, by whatever means.

Given the conceit of this show about embedded agents doing most of their own work, rather than relying on regular KGB?  Then yes, Paige would have to know how to break in, or set a microphone, or send a message to Moscow, how to get someone's interest sexually, or romantically.  (Like Liz and that sailor, she seduced him, but she didn't sleep with him to get the file on her target.)  Ditto with having to possibly kill someone who discovered or even suspected strongly that she was a spy.

Quote

The spycraft this season has been almost all about the women; Paige, Claudia, and Elizabeth are the ones on the missions while Stan, Philip, and Oleg are on the sidelines. (Stan confirmed this week that, like Philip, he’s happy to have left espionage behind him.) The Americans has some of the best female characters on TV, but it’s rarely about gender; is there a broader theme here that I’m missing?

I wonder about this too.  Although Phil, Stan, and Oleg have now been dragged back into the world they all left.

I'm going to stop quoting this article now, not because there isn't a lot more interesting stuff, but simply because this post is getting long.

Love this group.

Umbelina

Umbelina

The NY Times this weeks was kind of so-so, so I'm leaving that one out.

Alan Sepinwall here:

https://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-americans-recap-tchaikovsky-review-spoilers/

Quote

 

And when Paige starts questioning her mother about the many terrible specifics of what she does — which Elizabeth fends off with blanket denials that have absolutely zero potential to blow up in her face if Paige learns the truth about honeypots, right? — Elizabeth tries to explain that the world is complicated, and that black-and-white thinking gets you nowhere.

What’s funny about that exchange — one of several dry, black comic moments in what’s otherwise an inescapable march towards inevitable tragedy — is that Elizabeth Jennings is by far the most black-and-white thinker of the series. The mission, and the ideology behind it, are all that matters to her, and she will do whatever she must to serve both. She empathizes with Philip’s qualms because she loves him, but she’s rarely understood or agreed with them. Winning this war is everything to her, and the idea that people could care as passionately about anything else — much less something she finds as frivolous as Erica Haskard’s sketches and paintings — is baffling to her. She’s a literal thinker who has no room for art or ambiguity, just problems to be solved by any means necessary.

 

Alan does a really good job in this recap, catching some things that I may have missed, or dismissed a bit precipitously. 

Quote

* That thought, in turn, has me hoping that the marital problems with Sofia and Gennadi will wind up intersecting what’s happening with Oleg, Philip, Elizabeth, and the other major players, because it wasn’t a season five thread that felt in particular need of tying off.

I completely agree with this.  I think this will end up being a huge factor in the resolution of the series.  If for no other reason?  We know Sofia can't keep her mouth shut, specifically when she's "in love" and after 3 years in this country, she probably feels much safer than she was before.

Umbelina

Umbelina

https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/the-americans-insider-podcast-for-episode-2-of-season-6-tchaikovsky.html

The podcast.

They love the wig Elizabeth wears as a pretend nurse, it's their very very most special favorite ever.  They think it's cool that Liz, who has spent so much time killing people, is now having to keep someone alive.  They say Liz held back additional morphine to accomplish that. 

This week was less annoying.  They explain the x-ray machine, which frankly, still seems kind of stupid to me, and Claudia and Elizabeth's power dynamic.

They also mention that the KGB intends Paige will be a flat out spy, it would be very dangerous, and she would need skills to avoid being caught, and to get information they need.

Artist interview too, and costumes people.

sistermagpie

sistermagpie

(edited)
3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They also mention that the KGB intends Paige will be a flat out spy, it would be very dangerous, and she would need skills to avoid being caught, and to get information they need.

So Elizabeth is flat out lying to herself about that and they actually don't have any intention of just using her citizenship to place her in a top position? But nobody on the show has said this flat out? She's just another Hans, iow? (Not that the KGB, I don't think, ever specifically told Elizabeth this?) Claudia understands that Elizabeth believes this and is just letting her believe it?

Edited by sistermagpie
Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So Elizabeth is flat out lying to herself about that and they actually don't have any intention of just using her citizenship to place her in a top position? But nobody on the show has said this flat out? She's just another Hans, iow? (Not that the KGB, I don't think, ever specifically told Elizabeth this?) Claudia understands that Elizabeth believes this and is just letting her believe it?

 

Philip said it.  Gabe implied it.  Yes, I think Elizabeth has been lying to herself for a long time, about Paige, about what Paige will have to do.

No, she will be an "American" in a well placed job, but she will still be a real spy.  She will still need to do spy things, probably all of them.  She probably won't have nearly as many aliases as her mom and dad, because her real life job wouldn't need those.  She would still, for example, have to wear disguises at times, perhaps to follow someone in the office that they need intelligence on, or to place bugs, transmit messages or set up meets with her handlers, retrieve items they want her to use, to get close to someone that has more information than her job provides, etc. etc. etc.

By the way, that part of the podcast with the Artist they used is fabulous.

Edited by Umbelina
sistermagpie

sistermagpie

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

No, she will be an "American" in a well placed job, but she will still be a real spy.  She will still need to do spy things, probably all of them.  She probably won't have nearly as many aliases as her mom and dad, because her real life job wouldn't need those.  She would still, for example, have to wear disguises at times, perhaps to follow someone in the office that they need intelligence on, or to place bugs, transmit messages or set up meets with her handlers, retrieve items they want her to use, to get close to someone that has more information than her job provides, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, so it's not that they're doing a real story about Elizabeth is being betrayed by the KGB this way, it's just that they want us to know Paige will be just as cool as her mom, doing all the stuff people like on the show. Meh.

SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

(edited)

But as a "spy like Hans" her shelf-life will be very short indeed, shorter than Hans from what we've see so far.  As an embed, she can use her intelligence and education and live a normal life.  Now wondering what being "born in the USA" have to do with any of this???   Oh, dearie me ... they may have done quite a lot of damage to my interest in what comes next. 

(see also:  an American citizen caught doing Elizabeth's work would be charged and tried as a traitor while Elizabeth is just another spy ... eligible for spy swaps and other special options ) 

Edited by SusanSunflower
  • Love 1
Umbelina

Umbelina

(edited)
17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, so it's not that they're doing a real story about Elizabeth is being betrayed by the KGB this way, it's just that they want us to know Paige will be just as cool as her mom, doing all the stuff people like on the show. Meh.

I don't think they think Paige will be cool, just used.  I DO think Elizabeth is deliberately delusional about what will be expected of Paige.  One of the things they say is that Paige will be a "BIG TIME SPY" and a "HEAVY DUTY SERIOUS BIG TIME SPY."  She'll work in bureaucracy, but she's still a real spy.

13 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

But as a "spy like Hans" her shelf-life will be very short indeed, shorter than Hans from what we've see so far.  As an embed, she can use her intelligence and education and live a normal life.  Now wondering what being "born in the USA" have to do with any of this???   Oh, dearie me ... they may have done quite a lot of damage to my interest in what comes next. 

(see also:  an American citizen caught doing Elizabeth's work would be charged and tried as a traitor while Elizabeth is just another spy ... eligible for spy swaps and other special options ) 

 

Yes, they mention that in the Podcast as well.  Paige would be charged with treason.

I think they want her shelf life to be long and prosperous, she's far more important than Hans, who isn't a native born citizen.

Honestly I recommend listening to this podcast, see what you think.  It's not boring, it's actually well done this week.

Edited by Umbelina
sistermagpie

sistermagpie

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think they think Paige will be cool, just used.  I DO think Elizabeth is deliberately delusional about what will be expected of Paige.  One of the things they say is that Paige will be a "BIG TIME SPY" and a "HEAVY DUTY SERIOUS BIG TIME SPY."  She'll work in bureaucracy, but she's still a real spy.

That to me makes it sounds like we're supposed to consider her cooler than we would if she was what Elizabeth wanted. Sure it means that she's going to be more ill-used, but so is Elizabeth. It's just hard to think that BIG TIME SPY isn't supposed to sound cool. It only stops being cool when you realize they're talking about Paige who so far isn't showing herself to be BIG TIME either as a spy or as an American looking for an important career. Her main skill seems lie where it always has--in pleasing her immediate authority figures. (Even "real spy" implies that--she'd be a real spy without the wigs.)

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, they mention that in the Podcast as well.  Paige would be charged with treason.

And doesn't even seem to get the seriousness of that, just to point back to the whole "not exceptional" thing. Which I can believe from the KGB's pov. They don't know this kid. Elizabeth, the person on the ground, is insistent that she's great.

Umbelina

Umbelina

Listen to that podcast and see what you think.  I think it starts around 4 1/2 minutes in.  However, as I said, the whole podcast was good this week, I like the part about the power dynamic between Liz and Claudia and Claudia not being "read in" to the Mexico job as well.

I didn't get a "cool" vibe at all.  The interviewer started to ask an idiotic question, something like "We know Paige is just going to be a bureaucrat somewhere..." and they both jumped in to say, basically, no certainly not just a bureaucrat and went on to explain.

They also (barely) touch on the whole sex thing, how tricky imagining your parents having sex is for teenagers anyway, but imagine if Paige has to think of her mom and dad doing it with marks.

I think it's obvious by the writing so far that Elizabeth is in denial, and Paige is not spy materiel. 

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